A J Phillips,

Like you I cannot address all the points raised. However, I will address a few ...

I agree absolutely with your comments regarding the RC church in Africa. But the RC church is not the only Christian church, others are more in tune with wider society.

Original Sin. I don't think the average Christian lies awake at night contemplating the nature of this. It is irrelevant.

" ... most religions are immoral belief systems? ..."

As the religious majority in Australia is Christian, we will discuss these.

The decalogue was an extraordinarily sophisticated list of laws, particularly for the period it was compiled - the Bronze Age. The Bronze Age - a period when other groups were hurling their babies into open fire pits. Whilst societies evolve and mores change, the basic concepts for the most part remain current . I don't think that many would deny that the person of Jesus had important things to impart.

" beliefs systems ... to bring about the end of the world ..."

We are not discussing fundamentalism but mainstream religion, as practiced in this country.

" ... cumulatively, they all still help to legitimise the extremists all over the world."

Perhaps you can provide an example. The reverse would be closer to the mark.

" But even a lot of the moderates can cause damage through their good intentions... strict teaching of abstinence, creationism, objection to stem cell research, stigmatising of wIomen who have/seek abortions, ..."

Exactly what damage ... ?

I have yet to meet a Christian who promotes abstinence. The RC church may, but most catholics don't endorse, nor follow this idea. Do other religious denominations promote abstinence, or is it just RC?

Creationism. This is a fundamentalist doctrine, not applicable to main stream religions here.

Stem cell research. Some religious groups did question it, as did some ethicists. This resulted in wide-spread debate - a very healthy sign in a society. Research continues unabated.
www.stemcellsaustralia.edu.au

cont ...

gee we are..a lot of 'night owls'..arnt we..
anyhow..i note danielle..is still replying..so..briefly

glad to see..aj..is back..sadly no greatefull..like others i was so hoping he would explain..things..for us..to open..us up on....the divisions..EVEN...of the messengers message..as i..understand it..its basically..one..believes ONLY..the messengers children..can speak..for the messenger

the other believe he was..talking to/all..saying all..can talk..
but like everything..else/of men..has become the derision..of that he TRIED..to.teach..us.

same jesus..he DIDNT COME..to/deliver a church
jesus didnt come..toform..a new religion[it was men..who/did it]
luther..SAW*..that the church..had become.too creeed/ritual..based

wesly..well wasnt the church/of england..simply the crown..not liking to/be told?[the mormans..wasnt that yet again[originally]..the quakers..rejection..of creed over god?

see aj..all your links indicate..to/me..is power grabs on/to ANY reigns/of power it can grab..surely..if god himself says its so..YOU..MUST OBEY..[if not we have our army..or mercinaries[even assasinating priests]

anyhow my respected anti'religion..brother..icant defend 'churches'..i cant defend creed/rite/ritual/ignorance..nor idiots seeking special/dispensation..powers..over others..[im here..just for god/doing what i presume..'jesus'..would be doing..were he still here[defending god]

the personal/living/omnipresent good god[not the vengeful man made god of religious extremists[should we judge ALL churches as equally..assisting..or hindering..the good?

jresus said..myne fathers kingdom..hast many rooms
ishowed ypu tthe rooms[but proper heaven=open plan[but first wee must see the toilet..is in the adjoining rooms.

aj..i know you must like in a big house[because only the comfortably off can even..think..of other[and you do]..so surely..you will comprehend..the parable..

a man cometh home..he leaves his shoes at the door[to/say..im home/and to keep the little wopman..WHO"S HOME..it reallyis ..happy]

anyhow..you enter via the hallway[although some enter via the kitchen/yet others via windows..but regardless you enter [die]..via the masters entrance..you take off..your mortal apparel..[hat/wig uniform/coat]..and hang them-in the closset..[aastral/realm].then..

then..you may proceed..to the bathroom..or toilet..to/wash-off the days[life-times]..dirt..often/there you..leave your stained garments behind you/unthinkingly..but then may proceed to the bed chambers/for a brief nap..or to/the kitchen..for some food..BUT..evebntualy..you end upingods sitting room[the dinning room]..where we ALLgot a seat..at our fathers table

thats what heaven/hell etc is allabout
im with you re the evil..DONE IN/THE NAME..of good
but god..is/the only good..god is only seen in good/good works..reveal god..[and i see no evil in your words..but sadly..no question either]

everyday-ajday
now if only we could all..be great-full*
[as can..only be revealed..by our works.]

hopefully..not by doing a runner/like grateful..dun.
yu..have dani welle..[you have done well]..and george..i..so hope we shall sit at lunch one fine ETERNAL-day..with aj..and be ever so gratefull*

ahhmen..sucha clever god..to give us
soooommuch..for so little..

ahhhh men

(cont ...)

AJ Phillips,

Whatever some religious denominations may claim about homosexuality (and some openly accept it) the laity makes its own mind up about it; indeed it does about many things religious.

A large proportion of homosexuals want church weddings, suggesting the degree of acceptance they feel. They obviously don't think they risk being chased by outraged church members.

Weber's fundamental thesis damned the Protestant work ethic as the genesis of Capitalism. The "Marxist" Conflict Theorists would see no value in religion. Feminists embrace different aspects of different theorists. In contrast to religious groups who accept gay marriage, notice the deafening silence by feminists - yet gay liberation was a priority with them. Possibly understandable ..."marriage is a male tool for female oppression." On the other hand, some female religious leaders are feminists.

The question begs. How would atheists eradicate religion?

Not many of the faithful would be amicable to being told that they need to stop believing in fairly tales and grow up. Forcing them to engage in debate ... ? Nah ...! Imprisoning parents who teach their children? That's a bit harsh!

The Communists tried it, and it flourished underground and Communists could be "persuasive".

For those who gain comfort from their religion, why would anyone want to destroy this, albeit replacing it with psychological counselling, which never has guarantees with it. What does it matter if their comfort and raison d'etre is from, as you say "fairy tales" - at least it is comfort.

Our lives are lived through fairy-tales, even atheists believe in fairy-tales. It is all a matter of perspective. Most areas of our life has some "fairy-tale" attached to it. A fairy-tale (I think you have) is that those who embrace religion, would be happier and better functioning in a prosaic world, devoid of any faith. If their fairytales hurt none other, then why ...? Apart from stating that they should "grow up" rid themselves of "fairy tales" ...

The Dalai Lama is greatly admired, a true "gown up" - but the living incarnation of "fairy-tale." What would you say to him?

J S Phillips,

Our breath-taking Western architecture, music, literature and the arts we have inherited, has as you would say, been born of the stuff of fairy-tales. I would think that any creative endeavour emerges from some fairy-tale in the mind of its creator.

I lived for many years in a multi-cultured, multi-racial, multi-religious country. The religious festivals - the colour, the food, the communal happiness and togetherness were wonderful. We all shared it irrespective of religion. How dreary life would be without celebrations which have at the heart, a further dimension, a belief system.

I am not ready for experiences, logically mapped out, predictable, devoid of "fairy-tales" ... and ultimately dreary and grey.

I believe (perhaps my fairy-tale) Foxy's comments to be completely sound. They certainly resonate with my experience and perceptions.

I leave it to others to provide ontological reasons for belief in their religion.

AJ Phillips,

I sincerely apologise for getting your initials wrong.