911 was designed to bring about a totalitarian state. Govts who want absolute power have to do this. http://www.ae911truth.org/

Interesting article indeed.

Surveillance of all ? Well this is the price one pays when one expects the state to be the benevolent parent ... the government will fix everything, will take care of your health and education, will look after you in your old age, will protect you from all crime, will build you a new house. Produce children one cannot afford? Don't worry. The state will provide.

The only way to lessen obtrusive government is to reject what the government offers and take control of ones own affairs. But of course this leads to the government to "looking after" those who cannot or will not look after them selves.

One cannot have a highly regulated and democratic socialist country with out the government syping on the populous.

MURRAY HUNTER-"Consequently, it is not in the interests of the Australian or US intelligence community for any public or even parliamentary discussion. The idea that the parliament and executive are in total control of government is a myth."

but; the parliament and executive do have control of the Army.
whoever controls the army has control of the country and the government

if the Australian Army was totally made up of Indonesian
or Al-Quaeda or some other type of militia then the present
government would not have control of the country at all.
Worry about that, not spying or survelliance to catch terrorists
and enemies. What are you people so worried about, you
must have a very interesting sex life on your phones or
something , I don't care how much they survey my phone
I have absolutely nothing to hide. They are looking
for certain words anyway, like chemicals used to make bombs
and any security threats to the country as a whole.

they couldn't possibly have the time to stop and read
about everybodys sex life out of the millions and millions
of snippets of conversation coming throug they'd be their until
next millenium and couldn't possible acheive their security
objectives

The government already knows all about you already
due to the census and your tax file number.

the only thing this big worry about them tapping into mobiles
and computers that I can figure out must be the secret affairs
and sex lives that people are trying to hide. Nothing else
the government could find would be anything they didn't know about
Except security threats. Or organised crime.
Rest assured,
they already know your age, where you live, where you work,
how many children you do or do not have, how much you earn.

Mobile Phones and computers have created a world
where a civil war can be organised in a couple of days
by communication.

This is inevitably going to lead to governments listening
in to an extent they didn't feel threatened enough to do
in times of the big old public phone booths and Australia Post.

It would seem to be the down side to the
technological revolution in the past decades.

The fact that something that promised so much freedom
will lead to so much more control by governments around
the world seeing the huge security threat posed by
phones and computers to incite riots and civil wars.

Progress has often proven to be a double edged sword
marvellous on one side, deadly on the other.

Take the car, such wonderful freedom, but over six million
fatalities world wide and probably just as big a number
left maimed and badly injured. It's like Russian Roulette
out there on the roads.

Then there is the gun, marvellous hunting tool to provide food,
and for self-defence, but so deadly it has been used to
slaughter millions and millions of people in wars etc.

I could just continue listing one after the other of these
but it would take up to much room.

So this is what is happening with phones and computers.
We are seeing the bad outcome on the other side of the
sword, the irony, that the freedom the technology allows
will also lead to tighter conrol and big brother on the
other side.

CHERFUL, "Then there is the gun, marvellous hunting tool to provide food,and for self-defence, but so deadly it has been used to
slaughter millions and millions of people in wars etc"

It wasn't the invention of gun powder or the firearm, it was government's decisions that resulted in that carnage. However the firearm did save millions from tyranny and death at the hands of the Nazis. Guns in the hands of good men also saved Australia from possible occupation by the Japanese.

If your purpose in saying that was to support the author's contention that the population should be wary of government, you succeeded. At the same time you justified private legal ownership of firearms. For if there is to be any limit on government abusing its power, it is only the reality of the people having some practical means of effectively resisting government, that works. Perhaps the US founding fathers knew something about the risk of losing precious liberty when they promoted the existence of a 'well regulated militia'.

Well, it's probably a lot smarter to spy on items of interest, and collect actual evidence, than to lock up, cross examine and traumatize, entirely innocent people on the basis of a racial or ethnic profile?
If in collecting/examining that evidence, nothing of real or implied interest is found, the data can simply be destroyed, with the selected targets none the wiser.
And I believe it would be smart to deny any knowledge of any such activity, meaning, the politicians should be kept out of the loop, just so they can quite truthfully deny any knowledge, which only needs to be passed on to them, if there is a PROBLEM?
And would that could of been the case, when the gentle, compassionate Dr Haneef was incarcerated, simply because some of the people he knew from childhood, turned out to be terrorists?
I dare say, most of the police force will know a few crooks, some of who they might have known since childhood?
Should we then also assume guilt by association, or simply tap their phones entirely covertly, and then let the knowable facts speak for themselves and their integrity.
Yet, I would be a good deal happier, if we but had a bill of rights, that guaranteed our liberties and privacy.
Meaning, the proper authorities, would then need a judge's signature and reasonable cause!
Rhrosty.

They must be watching Hasbeen, that's for sure.

I'm beginning to think Mark Twain's comments about the weather can equally be applied to state surveillance. Everyone talks about it but no one does anything about it.

In truth I don't think anyone can do much about it. It seems to be me to be inevitable.

Also please don't think it's only the Australian government spying on you. Does anyone seriously doubt that if the Indonesians had the capability they would refrain from spying on Australians? Do you think the Chinese government isn't trying its damndest?

For good or ill I think privacy is largely gone.

But if anyone has a workable idea let's see it.

And as an addition to Stevenlmeyers post above ...your employer is likely doing it too.

Just be careful of the words that you use,
"The old <bomb> went like a <rocket> till it <blew up>" has a few key words in it that might trigger warnings on automated listening devices.

Might be best to use an unbreakable code!

Australia spying on it's own could be beneficial under present circumstances of the Abbott - Indonesia apology refusal. The refusal itself is further insult. Deep insult.

Government of Australia security would do well to consider spying on consequences of Abbott's refusal to apologise, and then spy on security of the Australian economy.
For example, Indonesian business is likely to now dump a considerable part of beef imports from Australia, impact of which would likely be far greater than the economic impact from the live cattle saga.

Imagine if it was Indonesia spying on Mr Howard's wife, or Mr Abbott's wife or daughters, say during a time when personal woman's conversation was taking place.

I wish we had the likes of Malcolm Fraser type of politics instead of this Abbott approach that is so whinging and critical and abusive and heartless generally.
Look at him during the Gillard period, always critical, no productive vision or plans. Look how his first action as PM was to cut Aid nedded by poverty stricken people.
I think Mr Abbott is already the worst PM Australia has ever had.

The Liberal Party should spy on reality for a change and urgently give Mr Abbott proper advice, or have him step down as PM.

Wake up now Mr Abbott and apologise, and also apologise for the no apology as you stated in Parliament.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/tony-abbott-refuses-to-apologise-for-indonesian-spying-program-20131119-2xsn4.html

JF Aus,

<<Imagine if it was Indonesia spying on Mr Howard's wife, or Mr Abbott's wife or daughters, say during a time when personal woman's conversation was taking place>>

MAYBE THEY DID -see story below:

"In a 2004 interview, retiring Indonesian intelligence chief General Abdullah Mahmud Hendropriyono said his agency tapped Australian civil and military communications and politicians' phone calls.It also made unsuccessful attempts to recruit Australian spies, he said."
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/indonesia-spied-on-australia-in-2004-says-ex-intelligence-chief/story-fn59nm2j-1226763231240

some simple..home truths..govt lie to you
govt agencies are there to serve private corporate mates
get others business/secrets..and the dirt..onfuture 'party-loyalists'[ya got the dirt on.]

what tonies missing..is that we dont let..china
build our phony..tony..telephony..system

yet...gasp..chinese..not*
because the china man..will..spy on..us

well tony..now the wet sock..is on..the other foot
WE ALL..DO IT..so get out of business..of picking winners
and stop the whining...i know two faced..and im seeing it here.

oh..its just fine and dandy..if its the mossad or
the usa's..40 other spying agencies..but not the chinese?

im seeing cross-eyed
or one eyed...logic..

and re this keeping the boat/people..info close to ya chest
dont wash neither..if the traffickers are getting it direct..from the media..in..the lands..of the foreigner..the darker yellow/dark peril

its purely to keep ausies in the dark
not the..angels of mercy..helping the modern day jew..escape..modern..SYSTEMATIZED..govt oppression..actively recorded order by order..that we yet again..will never hear..nor even any court

by their works..will..we know you
not ya..pr/spinners carefully worded/words

Indeed SPQR, anyone who think Indonesia is not spying on Australia is
having themselves on.
We now know the ABC obtained the information some months ago and
held onto it till after the election so they could use it politically,
the ABC should have its radio spectrum licences cancelled and the
responsible ABC staff should be prosecuted.

I don't think some of the correspondents we are hearing from on OLO
realise the seriousness of the ABC's action.
If it was wartime they would be put against a wall before a firing squad.
Isn't there a law against revealing such information ?
Probably they never understood the upheaval and questioning of the
security apparatus after 9/11.

I don't think they will understand until an Al Quada bomb goes off in Sydney killing tens or hundreds.

Spying on a president or pm and wife via their modern mobile phones in this day and age is absolutely different to government agencies spying on each other or on criminal activity. No doubt about that.

Two apologies are now due from Mr Abbott and if they are made absolutely urgently then relations may get back to normal.

Bazz,

<<We now know the ABC obtained the information some months ago and
held onto it till after the election...>>

If that can be verified everyone responsible should be sacked.
______________________________________________________________

JF Aus

You obviously missed my post above --here it is again:

"In a 2004 interview, retiring Indonesian intelligence chief General Abdullah Mahmud Hendropriyono said his agency tapped Australian civil and military communications and politicians' phone calls.It also made unsuccessful attempts to recruit Australian spies, he said."
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/policy/indonesia-spied-on-australia-in-2004-says-ex-intelligence-chief/story-fn59nm2j-1226763231240

How about SBY apologizes first,ay!

SPQR,

I saw your post and actually replied about it, because it is about agencies spying on agencies.
In my view the present case is very much about spying on the wife and leader using their personal phones.

JF Aus

<<it is about agencies spying on agencies>>
With all due respect I think you may be seeing what you want to see

<< General Abdullah Mahmud Hendropriyono said his agency tapped ... politicians' phone calls>>
"Politicians calls" --pretty open ended --might well include calls back home to their family?

And the above gentleman's admission included bugging the Australian embassy:http://newsmilitary.com/pages/20002228-indonesian-spies-bugged-australian-embassy That being the case, *ANYONE* who used the embassy's services would have been spied on.

So again, I say: "YOU FIRST!" Mr SBY

JF Aus, what do you think about heads of governments who use insecure phones ?
Do you think they are victims or stupid ?

Did you miss the story about Obama and his Blackberry ?
No one taps him.

connect the dots?

Report from Iron Mountain unveils a hitherto top-secret report of a government commission that was requested to explore the consequences of lasting peace on American society.

http://educate-yourself.org/nwo/reportironmountain1.shtml

The shocking results of the study, as revealed in this report, led the government to conceal the existence of the commission--they had found that, among other things, peace may never be possible;

*that even if it were, it would probably be un-desirable, that "defending the national interest" is not the real purpose of war;
*that war is necessary;
that war deaths should be planned and budgeted.

REPORT FROM IRON MOUNTAIN tells the story of how the project was formed, how it operated, What happened to it.

It includes the complete verbatim text
of the commission's hitherto classified report.

so will it be dis-info
or coded..info ..who..i knows only you could decide
being talked of here/now

http://www.republicbroadcasting.org/shoutcast/shoutcast.html

onthebeach...<If your purpose in saying that was to support the author's contention that the population should be wary of government, you succeeded. At the same time you justified private legal ownership of firearms. For if there is to be any limit on government abusing its power, it is only the reality of the people having some practical means of effectively resisting government, that works. Perhaps the US founding fathers knew something about the risk of losing precious liberty when they promoted the existence of a 'well regulated militia'.>

I like what you say in this post, onthebeach,
I have always felt conflicted by the gun control in Australia,
although it has helped to stop massacres like Port Arthur
and those we see regularly in America, however I have always said that
in a time of Anarchy I would much rather as a private citizen be armed.

I have thought about why Americans defend so strongly their right to
remain armed and I realized they have fought two wars on home soil
the American war of Independance and the America Civil War.

IN Australia, although we fought the Japanese in World War 2,the
enemy was from without.
We have never had to take up weapons to defend ourselves from
a government or enemy from within,(our fellow countrymen)and so
we have a different mind set to the Americans on the necessity of
remaining armed. The Americans could well have taken the
right course in the long run despite the downside of massacres
by crazed gunmen. I think those two American wars have left
deep scars and a healthy wariness in the American psyche.

SPQR,

I suggest you leave my sentence in full context, as copied here:
"Spying on a president or pm and wife via their modern mobile phones in this day and age is absolutely different to government agencies spying on each other or on criminal activity. No doubt about that."

It's the difference between essential Aus national security spying, and spying on another persons wife.
Crux of this matter is about one country spying on another country because of terrorism, therefore for example one government agency would be spying on another government agency - involving different religious beliefs.

In any case I were Aus PM, I would be sensible and man enough to apologise as Mr Obama did to M/s Merkel.

Bazz,
Certainly not stupid. That race has been there thousands of years compared to our race that elected a budgie smuggling media-selfie. I can still see the gaga smile to the camera from the drivers seat of a fire truck. What's more, genuine volunteers have to pay their own petrol to get to volunteer.

Without due and honest apology, just wait and see what happens to Aus beef exports to Indonesia.

I think every minute of delay is increasing severe economic consequences for all Australians.

JF, I think you are a bit naive, I think it will come down to a mutual
unspoken statement, but a wink wink nod nod, say no more.
The current situation is worse for Indonesia than Australia.

Despite all the umbrage they were happy to take delivery of a fleet of
transport aircraft.

Bazz, there is a lot to be said for the meaning of, "what you say is what you are".

I seem to remember seeing news of the Australian flag being burned but no delivery of any fleet.

I think president "Bang Bang" is using the spying fiasco
as a smoke screen because Australia was starting to ask
a lot of questions about the people smuggling trade
and Indonesian involvement in the lucrative money side
of it involving Indonesian officials.

Why a highly militarised country like Indonesia has no navy
ships patrolling the waters where asylum boats regularly
launch into the ocean? Shock horror could it be that
Indonesia is deliberately turning a blind eye to sinking
boats and drowning people.

Those questions were putting Indonesia in the hot seat lately
What a great chance to divert attention the spying affair is.

Use audio vedio jamming device for privacy protection like this one radio jammer http://www.jammerfromchina.com/categories/Wireless_Video%7B47%7DAudio_Jammers/

Very quick way to get yourself a $10000 fine or six months hard labour.

When they want to it takes about one minutes to pin point where you are.
It is like standing on a roof top with a loud hailer shouting "Here I Am !".

Oh yes, of course I forgot to mention;
You would be jamming yourself as well Duh !