Dear Julian and James,

If you set more reasonable goals, then you may one day see them achieved.

Absolute justice and equality are never going to happen (nor is any of the sides involved interested in them anyway), but the living conditions of Palestinians can be dramatically improved and their pain dramatically reduced once they abandon the path of armed resistance.

A two-state solution is a requisite for keeping the peace: placing Jews in control of, or easy access to, their 'holy places' creates a very explosive situation. The two must be separated or the Jews become intoxicated and violent. That separation is both for Israel's good and for the good of its neighbours.

While it may be correct to say that Israel and Palestine cannot reach a negotiated two-state solution any time soon, the alternative is for the international community to enforce that solution on both sides. Some adult must come and tell them: "stop quarrelling, it's bed-time, each to their own bed right now and lights are out".

But alas, I suspect that you two do not truly hold the poor Palestinians close to heart, but are rather more interested to leverage their suffering towards unrelated global goals.

Hi Yuyutsu,

Thankfully, none of us is an Emperor and few people are dictators.

On the issue of Palestine, as for many others, we can curse the darkness forever, or we can try to light a candle: what can anyone do, that might move things in the right direction ? Take for granted that such a bitter dispute has no quick-fix solution, although who thought the Soviet Empire would collapse as quickly as it did (to be replaced by a neo-Tsarist Putin, but there you go) ?

Yes, a two-state solution might work, if each side was resigned to leaving the territory of the other to the other. But I live in hope that, further down the track, perhaps over generations, the two parties can work together more and more, and perhaps come to, first, say, an alliance or cooperative arrangement, then a confederation, then a federated state, and who knows then a single state ? Non -religious, i.e. secular, democratic, with all people moving freely about the entire territory. Perhaps it could include Jordan.

Yes, pie in the sky, but dreams are better than nightmares.

Joe
www.firstsources.info

There have been follow-ups to the list of requirements in a two-state solution which I suggested would be needed to meet minimum requirements of fairness and justice. I don’t have rejoinders to these comments (with many of which I agree) - rather further observations. I might run out of OLO’s very generous word allowance.

James O’Neill: Yes it’s quite true, the Zionists are far too arrogant to agree to anything that fails to recognise that God chose them as much more “special” and require far more consideration of their wants than mere goyim. Equality would never do – that’s why they left their real homelands where they had to live with racial equality. Why put up conditions they would certainly reject? The reason is that their overwhelming military superiority depends not on hardware (even their WMDs) alone, but importantly on the very high approval rating they have among the people of the West and even of the non-West. Their “poor little us, bullied by the Arabs” ploy, relentlessly magnified, would blunt any plea for what Westerners brought up on tales of “pesky redskins” would recognise as fair. Yuyutsu on this list has dismissed equality as “unreasonable”. The Zionist hasbara operatives show extreme sensitivity to any challenge to their sense of inborn privilege, such as Bob Carr calling illegal settlements illegal settlements. If they are seen to reject a fair two-state solution this will undermine any propaganda advantage of not being taken to be the ones to reject negotiations demanded by John Kerry. A fruit of the Enlightenment is that millions of people recognise and value justice. Worth driving home the lesson that Zionists don’t.

Yuyutsu: Justice is eminently reasonable goal provided its offer is repeatedly made public. Sure neither side wants justice. One wants a permanent racist “homeland”, the other wants the monstrosity of Sharia “law”. Justice excludes both. The West must make it quite clear both are off the table. The Egyptians are putting their foot down, so must the Palestinians or the West will do it for them.

[To be continued]

[Continued]

Yuyutsu claims James and I have global goals other than compassion for the Palestinians. Can’t speak for James but I certainly do. As a youngster I was blown away by the rightness of the unfolding Nuremburg trials and their outcome. Still am. The power of justice for the salvation of humanity is the greatest gift of the Enlightenment. Compassion for the hopelessly dysfunctional Palestinians is there, and hatred for the racism of the Zionists or the Nazis or the Boer overlords, but a nurturing attachment to justice as a force comes top.

Loudmouth’s goal of a state that is non-religious, i.e. secular, democratic, with all people moving freely about the entire territory, is spot on. I agree the campaign for a just two-state solution is not a goer and would soon lead to more conflict unless both “God-chosen” racism and Islam’s hatred for human liberty were finally abandoned as “just not on”.

[Continued]

Yuyutsu claims James and I have global goals other than compassion for the Palestinians. Can’t speak for James but I certainly do. As a youngster I was blown away by the rightness of the unfolding Nuremberg and Tokyo trials and their outcome. Still am. The power of justice for the salvation of humanity is the greatest gift of the Enlightenment. Compassion for the hopelessly dysfunctional Palestinians is there, and hatred for the racism of the Zionist or Axis or Boer overlords, but a nurturing attachment to justice as a force comes top.

Loudmouth’s goal of a state that is non-religious, i.e. secular, democratic, with all people moving freely about the entire territory, is spot on. I agree the campaign for a just two-state solution is not a goer and would soon lead to more conflict unless both “God-chosen” racism and Islam’s hatred for human liberty were finally abandoned as “just not on”. I’d merely say to the sides: “If you’re going for a two-state solution make sure it’s a just one so that the world will learn from what happens to the proposals.”

Dear Julian,

Pope Francis recently said: "I see the church as a field hospital after battle. It is useless to ask a seriously injured person if he has high cholesterol and about the level of his blood sugars! You have to heal his wounds. Then we can talk about everything else."

Requiring strict adherence to equality as a pre-condition for Middle-East settlement is equivalent to demanding that even atheists must avoid using condoms. Neither ideology can get very far with such demands.

In the end, the Boers of South Africa got a deal that was less than just, yet it works and yet it taught the world a lesson.

Joe's (Loudmouth) goal of a non-religious state is throwing the baby with the bath-water. Instead I pray for the Middle-East: "Lord, forgive them for they know not what religion truly is".