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The Forum > Article Comments > Rethinking the two-state solution > Comments

Rethinking the two-state solution : Comments

By Neve Gordon, published 4/10/2013

An Israeli-Palestinian power-sharing model could guarantee democracy and a certain kind of Zionism.

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Hi Individual,

Yes, there have been one-hundred-year wars and thirty-year wars, and really a thousand-year war of the Arabs/Islam against Europe (711 AD, invasion of Spain; 1699, siege of Vienna). But I live in hope that there will eventually have to be an internal revolt within Islam (or more correctly, against Islam), something like the Protestant Reformation in Europe,coupled with a recognition of the impartial rule of law, and the recognition of genuinely equal rights for men and women. Only after these revolutionary changes might the situation in Palestine/Israel move towards a preference for secular and democratic co-operation.

Yep, that probably won't happen in my lifetime. It would probably mean the destruction of that blind and unchallangeable adherence to a backward ideology rather than its modification, with god knows what sorts of upheavals and twists and turns on the long and painful road to democracy, but that's for Muslims and ex-Muslims to work out. I certainly wish them well, and for the least painful struggle towards universal Enlightenment values.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Saturday, 5 October 2013 12:59:15 PM
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Dear Rhrosty,

If Palestinians can remain peaceful model citizens for say 10-20 years, including the removal of hateful anti-Semitic materials from their children's textbooks, then it would become a habit, a second-nature, then indeed everything will be well once they have the numbers in the ballot. The question is, can they?

<<Failing as they make those patently untrue claims, that they have no more right to claim land than any of the other sons and daughters of Jacob!>>

Interesting. Assuming that Jacob even existed, the Palestinians are not commonly considered his descendants, but rather of his uncle, Ishmael. However, recent research indicates that a significant portion of Palestinians are ex-Jewish farmers who converted to Islam following the Arab conquest, in order to avoid the heavy taxation on non-Muslims. Many Zionist leaders originally wanted to include them as brothers and sisters in the Jewish state, but that stopped in 1929 due to the Arab massacre in Hebron and later due to the Arab rebellion of 1936.

<<And there's nothing very complex about commercial boycotts, which the Palestinians have already very successfully employed, with far more compelling behavioral change results, than any and all the bombs and rockets, which to date have been completely counter productive, and or, placed a world of excuses in the hands of the more militant Jews?>>

So true, but the question remains: Are the Palestinians capable of stopping their violence, or is it just wishful-thinking?

<<Some of who would nor look too out of place, I believe, in brown shirts, SS emblems and jackboots?>>

Disgusting indeed.

It makes me want to vomit, but contrary to some OLO commentators I would like to see Israel reformed, whereas they would prefer to see Israel erased from the maps altogether, probably replaced by a 'progressive' Muslim Caliphate covering the whole Middle-East, eventually expanding to cover the whole planet.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 6 October 2013 12:40:42 PM
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Hi Rhosty,

"Some of who would nor look too out of place, I believe, in brown shirts, SS emblems and jackboots?"

Nope, haven't seen that yet. But let's see, where have I seen TV footage of men marching in black shirts and what could have been jack-boots, under a black flag ? Anywhere in Palestine ? Gaza ? Ramallah ?

Pot-kettle :)

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Sunday, 6 October 2013 1:05:55 PM
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Peace will not arrive without fundamental changes.

Edward Said wrote in 2001, "Arbitrary arrest,
incarceration without trial, the killing of civilians,
inhumane roadblocks, settlement expansion, all lead
the Palestinians to one conclusion: the Israelis, and
their US backers, aren't serious about peace."

"Criticising Israel is not anti-Semitic and saying so is vile.
But singling out Israel for opprobrium and interational
sanction - out of all proportion to any other party in the
Middle East - is anti-Semitic, and not saying so is dishonest."

(Thomas Friedman).

Antony Loewenstein ends his book, "My Israel Question,"
with these words,

"Neither side has a monopoly on suffering, but only one
party has the power to end the occupation and to recognise
that Israel and Palestine are historically destined to
share the same homeland."

Israel has been calling the shots since 1967, always
without Palestinian consultation, and clearly believes that
the US will continue its support no matter what.
The international community continues to
place a higher value on Israel's vision of its historic
destiny than on the humanity of the Palestinians. Even
though many politicians continue to talk about believing
in the "emergence of an Independent Palestinian state,"
as long as Western and US support for Israel continues
carte blanche - this will not happen.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 6 October 2013 6:38:26 PM
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States founded on injustice are bound to fall, and failing a programme of radically re-evaluating the ancient lies on which it is constructed and eliminating its injustices Israel's turn will come as surely as that of the racist Boer Apartheid Republic of South Africa came. A two-state "solution" will not happen unless it is based on justice and equality. Moves to bring it about will get nowhere without:

* Right of return of exiles
* Equal state sovereignty.
* Neither allowed to dictate the legal structure of the other.
* Elimination of restrictions on the flow of goods to one not matched by the same restriction on the flow to the other. This includes weapons.
* Elimination of major weapons held by either and not matched by the other.
* Equal rights for each to maintain full and free international relations and alliances.
* Visa requirements for entry the prerogative of each territory.
* Neither to be allowed to foist or retain by force settlements on the other’s territory.
* Neither to have power to abridge the right of the other to accept immigrants or visitors.
* Neither to be allowed to restrict the free flow of people and goods between parts of the one state.
* Removal of the illegal settlements which spread like a pox across the face of the West Bank.
(Just LOOK at the map at http://www.bobmay.info/images/westbanksettlementsmap.jpg !)

Those conditions may not be sufficient but they are all necessary to a just solution.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Monday, 7 October 2013 2:00:09 AM
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@Julian. Agreed, and no doubt we could add others as well. Which is precisely why it will not happen. The sooner we rid ourselves of the "two state"solution delusion the quicker we can move on to look at real solutions. That is also unlikely to happen. So we are doomed to a continuation of the current situation which will end either with the Palestinians being ethnically cleansed completely or yet another war with the same result.

If anyone thinks a nuclear armed and expansionist Israel is going to change its ways they are living in a parallel universe.

One lesson we might draw from this tragedy is the folly of allowing great powers to draw boundaries setting national states to suit their needs and to hell with the people concerned. We see the consequences of this in more places than the Middle East, and not just historically.
Posted by James O'Neill, Monday, 7 October 2013 6:06:11 AM
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