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The Forum > Article Comments > Addressing the issues on abortion > Comments

Addressing the issues on abortion : Comments

By Amanda Fairweather, published 13/10/2005

Amanda Fairweather argues it is time to have a serious debate on abortion.

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"Sans" the attitude, I find myself in general agreement with the "sunburnt Pom" here ;)
Posted by mahatma duck, Monday, 17 October 2005 9:41:13 PM
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“does that presume pro-life hold the same values as Hitler? – I THINK NOT”
…then
“In that respect – prolife are nazi’s”

These two “that”s in the quotes refer to different things. I recognise that.
I recognise these two quotes do not contradict . You made a distinction between the different respects in which “pro-lifers are Nazis”.

In the same way, I am comparing pro-choice to Nazis in the respect that they deny justice to those whom they fail to recognise as human.

You must be reminded that what I am saying is…
The pro-life argument is not a group of people who “assume the right to impose their view over what should be the private and personal decision of an individual.” In fact, we do not want to impose a “view”. We actually want to create awareness of the injustice of abortion.
“Injustice”? Why injustice? Isn’t that a view? No. It is not a personal view because science proves embryos are human beings.
“An embryo is human because of two things: 1- human DNA; 2- self moving (alive)” I am trying to create awareness of this fact.
You have argued against this:
-No claim to independence
-No claim to individuality

No claim to independence? Agreed.

No claim to individuality? Your reason, “the embryo… is inseparable to woman’s body and shares resources of woman’s body.”
Firstly, sharing of resources is to do with “dependence” and I have already agreed with you on this.
Secondly, the fact that it is inseparable from the woman’s body would only negate the individuality of the embryo if the embryo functioned in response to signals from the mother organism. This is not so, as I and Science have pointed out- the embryo is self-moving- proving individuality.

Are we trying to criminalise “what currently are the free choices of individuals”?
What we are trying to do is to show that an already criminalized act (terminating the life of a human being) encompasses something (abortion) which people have failed to recognise as falling into that category. It is science that proves that embryos are human individuals.
Posted by Jose, Monday, 17 October 2005 9:41:42 PM
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"This is not so, as I and Science have pointed out- the embryo is self-moving- proving individuality."

Unassailable logic, Jose - under which every sperm can be regarded as an individual human life! Brings to mind the gospel according to Michael Palin:

There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.
You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood!

Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
God needs everybody's.
Mine! And mine! And mine!

Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaate!
Posted by mahatma duck, Tuesday, 18 October 2005 8:04:11 AM
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MD,
Sperm cells are not self-moving.
You think I meant motion (which is a form of energy) but I actually mean movement (or action, which is NOT a FORM of energy BUT a CAUSE of energy).
In sperm cells, chemical potential energy converts into kinetic energy (motion).

This is similar to some lizards’ tails which, when detached from the body, convert chemical potential energy into kinetic energy, so the predator will possibly go after the wriggling tail rather than the escaping lizard. The detached tail is not alive.

A sperm cell is not a lizard’s tail, in case you think that’s what I’m saying. The sperm cell does not self-move but the chemical potential energy is converted into kinetic energy (motion).
When a sperm cell fertilises the egg, the result is a self-moving organism. Remember, movement is not motion but action (the cause of motion).

PS. I apologise for any use of capitals as it may have upset some readers, but these are necessary to stress the right words (in lieu of italics).
Posted by Jose, Tuesday, 18 October 2005 2:16:10 PM
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Mahatma (sorry if i've mispelt your moniker) but your poem - was hardly Leonard Cohen! Get it? If not, "The Future" should be on your listening list. The whole thing about abortion is about life/death and who is in control. It's not god, it's not husbands, or society, it's about what the hell you do at the time when you find out you are pregnant. All morals aside, if i slept with 50 men I would not have 50 babies. So who is putting their hands up to be dad? Life is cheap - up to a point. There are (too) many people on this planet. It's not yet to the point where we'll abort because of cosmetic reasons. It's still for the same reasons it was since time. Economic - just can't do it by myself and scatching.
All good reasons when you're living the life.
I don't want to get into another argument on this forum with all the pro-lifers and TIMKINS especially, channelling stats so it becomes a nonsense. Women don't nonchalently get pregnant and decide to abort, like a handbag choice in their life. But if they happen to be pregnant, they have the right to have a choice. I have absolutely no desire to be pregnant again. And i have the luxury in this day and age to have sex sans worry and society. I have the best of both worlds finally and abortion should always be as an option.
Posted by Di, Tuesday, 18 October 2005 9:27:10 PM
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Jose, old son - I have to tell you: spermatozoa absloutely move independently, by virtue of their rotating flagella that propel them. What's more, if they didn't move we wouldn't be rehashing this tedious 'debate', because no ova would become impregnated.

Di - I agree that Leonard Cohen is a superior poet to Michael Palin. As you've correctly surmised, a bit of a fan too... ;)
Posted by mahatma duck, Tuesday, 18 October 2005 10:13:01 PM
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