This post is the biggest load of nonsense that I have ever seen published here at OLO it does absolutely nothing to address the issues about Islam that are at the core of Geert Wilders' criticisms of that political ideology.

The author instead rambles on with an extended ad hominem argument against all western liberal cultures rather than defending or justifying the precise cultural practices that are so justifiably criticised by Wilders.
From his Melbourne speech:
"Because Muhammad lied and cheated in order to advance Islam, some followers feel entitled to do the same. Islam even has a word for this kind of lying. It is called taqqiya.
Because Muhammad spread Islam through acts of terror, some of his followers do the same.

Because Muhammad established an Islamic state, some of his followers see it as their duty to do the same.

Because Muhammad had his critics and the critics of his Islamic state murdered, some of his followers regard it as their duty to kill everyone who speaks his mind about Muhammad and Islam.

It is no coincidence that all the Islamic states in the world demand that freedom of speech be curtailed and that criticism of Islam and its prophet be forbidden. And yet, it is our duty to speak out and tell the truth.

Anyone who voices criticism of Islam and Muhammad is in grave personal danger. And whoever attempts to escape from the influence of Islam and Muhammad risk the death penalty. We cannot continue to accept this state of affairs. A public debate about the true nature and character of Muhammad is badly needed how uncomfortable it might be to some people."

Iain,
To render him comprehensible to Europeans Muhammad needs to be placed in the same context as Julius Caesar, Napoleon Bonaparte or Adolf Hitler, he's a messianic figure, not a deity, a criminal, a pedophile or anything else.
People like Wilders are "difficult", I compare him to someone like David Irving, the information they provide is accurate but as Professor Raul Hilberg said of Irving, his research is impeccable but his motivations are questionable.
I've read enough of Irving's work to conclude that he's enthralled by National Socialist Germany and it's charismatic leaders and I've read enough of Wilders to ascertain that he's equally captivated by the trials of the Jewish people and of the Zionist project.
What I do understand about both men is that they are basically harmless individuals, they're both essentially romantics in the traditional sense.

The far right have always needed a scapegoat to blame for their own shortcomings?
The Nazis blamed and persecuted the Jews, the poverty conscious tea party blame socialism and persecute the poor; by denying them natural justice; and the new far right, now target Islam.
Islam has made it all to easy for them, by fundamental versions of Islam, treating Christian minorities very poorly or actively persecuting them; and or, spreading their influence through fear based, nefarious strategies.
And their record on the treatment of women, in too many countries, leaves lots to be desired!
And that is putting it mildly!
The worst examples being child brides, forced marriage, acid attacks, gang rape, ritual beheading, stoning, public beatings, and mandatory execution, for alleged rather than proven adultly.
Islamic devotees, claim that Mohamed, through his living example, preferred peaceful coexistence, with all other book based faith.
It is high time we saw examples of that, in much or the strife riddled Middle east, were Christian minorities are the virtual scapegoats!
And Islam is not served by rigid recalcitrant fundamental Islamic activists, virtually declaring war on everything western, with bomb attacks on innocent civilians etc, in their host countries.
And the crime rate in Islamic ghettoes, is both shameful and unjustified!
The world does not owe anyone a living!
And the west can hardly be blamed for the outcomes, created by the whim and caprice of a plethora of dictatorial strongmen/madmen!
Moreover, it is hardly Europe's fault that isolationist Islam won't fit in.
Little wonder some want them out!
And yes, that is tarring all of Islam with the same brush!
And yes, that is hardly fair or reasonable!
Even so, if the likes of Wilders want ammunition to fire at Islam, so called Islam, is providing plenty of it!
It is up to Islam to clean out the cranks in their ranks, rather than emulate the Christian churches, who, to this very day, actively protect paedophiles; and or, protect their so called patch, with, I believe, a cult like cannot err doctrine, rather than evidence based truth!
Rhrosty.

This author has so little comprehension of his subject that he sets out all of Wilder’s great ideas as if they were a criticism of Wilders, and not the behaviour of the segment of the community which caused such ideas to even be broached.

At least Wilders is attempting to do something about a serious problem.

Does our little mate, Badar, fail to understand the situation, at all, or is he simply incapable of sensibly addressing it?

Rhrosty, So what? How many wars have the Nazis started in the last 70 years? How many countries have Nazis invaded since 1945 and how many people have they killed?
I'm an expert on the "far right" I actually write and talk to these people on a daily basis as I do with people on the "far Left". Scapegoating is a simplistic and misleading term, it implies that the a person or group has been unjustly accused, Modern European Nationalists don't "scapegoat", they hold people to account for their actions.
People like you are the only ones who are confused by the issue of third world immigration to majority European societies, the "Far Left" and "Far Right" are both on their own consistent message.
The Far Left want the Genocide of Europeans, the Far Right seek to prevent it, it's a black and white issue, there are no grey areas or muddied waters.
Geert Wilders isn't an indigenous European, he's part Javanese and his agenda is openly philo Semitic and pro Zionist, his activism only supports Israel and the remnants of European Jewry. Wilders' second wife is Jewish and like John "Israel is part of my very being" Howard he's been a lifelong admirer of Jews, Judaism and Israel.
So you're reflexively going to screech that I'm scapegoating Jews , "Just like Hitler", well think again, Wilder's isn't Jewish and nobody made him into an obsessive Judeophile and booster for Zionism, "the Chosen" don't actively encourage these nitwits but they don't send them packing either, hence the term "useful idiot" which the authentic, Nationalist right apply to Wilders, Howard, Cameron, Le Pen, Griffin and all.

the fact that he is in danger from Muslims everywhere proves his point. The Christian hating secular high priests and their followers don't need bodyguards despite their bile, hatred and lies.

The fact that Badar is free to relentlessly criticise the West while living here and studying without persecution highlights the superiority of liberalism over Islam. Imagine relentlessly criticising Islam in Mecca or Islamabad. Imagine a conservative Catholic student studying in a university in a Muslim country sprouting the virtues of the West and demonizing Islam at every turn. Would there be repercussions? Wilders knows the repercussion of criticising Islam, in his own country too. He's under constant protection and has had death threats.

Wilders has every right to criticise Islam. It has nothing to offer the West. Its submission to Allah trumps all pragmatic political and social concerns. The West removed Christianity from politics because of this. Submitting to god was more important than fixing any social issue. This is why the Islamic countries haven't progressed for hundreds of years. Any progression in those countries are imported from the West anyway and have not grown organically.

If you want to reinstate the Caliphate in the Muslim world, as your signature suggests, one wonders why you're in Australia. You obviously have no commitment to Western values. So why are you here? To undermine liberalism? Rejected from an Islamic university?

Runner,
So you don't think the bodyguards and all the security are part of the act?
The Wilders issue isn't about Islam as much as it is about Islam's relationship with Judaism and Zionism because that's the lens through which he views the world.
Read this link from the American Jewish site "Forward":
http://forward.com/articles/147934/devilish-pact-with-europe-s-right-wing/?p=all

Here's a statement from two of Australia's nationalist micro groups:
http://www.natalt.org/2013/02/09/the-anti-jerusalem-declaration/

So you see Wilders has a written statement of common purpose, an alliance if you will with explicitly Nationalistic and racialist Israeli parties but he decries and denounces explicitly Nationalistic and racialist European parties.
Rhetorical question; Whose side is he really on?

Right on, Aristocrat.

Wilders is trying to keep the debate on IDEOLOGY, NOT Race, as pseudo-Leftist opportunists try to portray him, or Culture, or even nationality - Ideology. The ideology of Islam, he claims, is an ideology of fear, of hate, of death, and manifestly of totalitarianism. He is not calling for anybody's extermination.

Wilders has been surrounded by police for many years now.

Last year, an imam was allowed to talk around Australia about 'Jewish rats', 'exterminating Jewish filth from the face of the earth', and so on. I don't recall news broadcasts of leftists with placards demanding his expulsion, so I guess we know where they stand.

A reporter asked that bloke if he had ever needed police protection, in all the years he had been spreading this message. No, he answered.

If I knew of it beforehand, I would love to go to an Islamist rally with a placard saying "Criticise Those who Insult Atheism". But I cwould probably get shouted down, and have my placard torn up, by brave Leftists. And beaten up by the bloke with his placard saying "Behead Those who Insult Islam" as they stood by, cheering.

Christ, talk about Lenin's 'useful idiots'.

Joe

The posting is worthless propaganda, and incidentally raises the alarming question of how he can be “completing a Ph D” at Uni WS when he has no grasp of first year logic:
“As for causing problems in terms of social cohesion and harmony, this has little to do with Islam. Liberalism has simply failed to address the issue of 'minorities' in any satisfactory way. The decades-old and still persisting issues with blacks in Britain, African-Americans and Hispanics in the US, and Aborigines is Australia, to pick but a few random examples, is testament to this failure.”
For Australians, it is simply a question of whether we should encourage immigration of Muslims who place allegiance to Sharia law before our secular society. Wilders’ extreme statements should not mislead us into ignoring the evidence he provides of the dire consequences being experienced in other countries.

Joe,
The pseudo Leftists are explicitly pro Islam and Anti Judeo Christianity while the pseudo Right are pro Judeo Christianity and anti Islam, what they have in common is a commitment to the overarching Liberal democratic reform agenda.
The Radical Left and Radical Right are revolutionary movements, we both seek the overthrow of liberalism and totalitarian humanism, as I said the Radical Left view the solution as international socialism, the Radical Right see the salvation of Europe in social nationalism.These are two completely different ideas, two genuine alternatives as opposed to the fake theses and controlled opposition of the pseudo left and populist groups.

This from today's Australian newspaper:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/cut-paste/all-they-are-saying-is-give-the-religion-of-peace-a-chance-to-beat-up-gays-jews-and-wives/story-fn72xczz-1226583047090

>>IT'S billed as the "largest, the biggest and the best-ever Islamic event in the history of Australia", a three-day festival for an expected 20,000 Muslims ... But the chief attraction is a Saudi imam who has called for violent jihad ... Dr Abdul Rahman al-Sudais>>

Quote from sermons by the Imam:

>>THE Jews of yesterday are the evil forefathers of the even more evil Jews of today: infidels, falsifiers of words, calf worshippers, prophet murderers, deniers of prophecies ... the scum of the human race, accursed by Allah, who turned them into apes and pigs ... These are the Jews - an ongoing continuum of deceit, obstinacy, licentiousness, evil and corruption ... The insult to and contempt of Arabs, Muslims ... reaches its height at the hands of the rats of the world, the violators of agreements, in whose minds abide treachery, destruction and deceit and in whose veins flow occupation and tyranny.>>

Another attraction is Dr Zakir Naik:

>>" ... the 44-year-old medical doctor recommends capital punishment for homosexuals and the death penalty for those who abandon Islam as their faith. He has said that a man is within his right to beat his wife "lightly", though ... he cautioned against hitting her on the face or leaving a mark ... his view (is) that Western women make themselves "more susceptible to rape" by wearing revealing clothing ... (in a) 2007 video (he said): "If (Osama bin Laden) is fighting the enemies of Islam, I am for him ... if he is terrorising America the terrorist, the biggest terrorist, I am with him" ... Dr Naik ... (said) the (exclusion order was [from Canada]) "overzealous and islamophobic" ... (and his comments) were "taken out of context".>>

They make Wilders look like a pussycat.

I think I'll take the "totalitarianism of liberalism" over anything the "religion of peace" has to offer.

Hi Steven,

Yes, and if there are any women amongst those useful idiots (there never seems to be, to give them credit), they will be dead-quiet about the Islamic right-to-violence against subject women, daughters, wifes, mothers. And about the rape requirements of four male witnesses. And the inheritance differential, in which women inherit a fourth as much as their brothers.

And the divorce rights of men, but not women. And the 72 virgins, ever-renewable, for male martyrs, but only one man, for female martyrs (true: check it out on Islam.online).

As an atheist, I'm not impressed much by any religion, although in my studies of Aboriginal History, I've been amazed at the dedication of many missionaries. I guess, since they were Black and not Muslim, Islamists would have had no trouble enslaving Aboriginal people or exterminating them.

Islamists have never had much trouble with slavery, as long the slaves weren't Muslim: in oh-so-highly-civilized Spain, under the Moors, much of the agricultural work was done by slaves, around fifty thousand. Perhaps Islamist ideology is, after all, pre-feudal, not just pre-capitalist

Utopias are so often just for the in-crowd. Maybe that's what attracts some of the idiotic doctrinaire Left: a shared view on Utopias, a shared willingness to exterminate out-groups, and an intolerance of anybody who questions their ideologies.

So it's a bit ironic to hear of some moron like Anthony Mundine embracing Islam.

"Criticise all those who criticise those who insult Islam." But don't behead them or Gulag them: leave that to the totalitarians.

Cheers,

Joe

Loudmouth

On Arab TV they are showing movies of the Holocaust and saying:

"Next time we Muslims will be killing the Jews,"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YT9bZ_k03D0

Did Wilders say he wanted to shoot Moroccans in the knees? Yes and No.

It is Dutch police policy that when rioters are totally out of control then, as a last resort, the police may shoot those rioters in the knee to protect themselves and innocent bystanders. After a soccer riot by Moroccans Wilders simply opined that the police need to maintain order even if it means implementing the knee shooting policy. The use of this by the author is utter (and presumably deliberate) misrepresentation.

Equally wilders saying that the Koran should be banned is ambiguous. He simply draws a parallel between it and Mein Kampf and then says, since Hitler's book is banned, so should Mo's. Again the author sets out to misrepresent.

As to him being far-right...well hardly.

There is a lot of misrepresentation of the views of people like Wilders with the quite apparent aim of distorting views so as to suppress them.

If Wilders is wrong, explain this conference
March 15-17th. Let’s see the loony left demonstrating against this.
”Peace Conference and Exhibition”

Take the main organiser himself. In a lecture recorded last December in Melbourne, Waseem Razvi, who supports Sharia law in Australia, said Islam allowed violence in defence of the faith:

You don’t have to try to convince by being compromising on Islam … you don’t have to say that Islam is all about peace, “no we don’t fight, we are not violent.” You know, the Prophet fought 30 wars … yes, we are not non-violent, we are violent but when there is a need for it. We are battles people. We are not like Buddhists wearing an orange dress and always saying we want peace, and you never get your own country. No, we fight for our country. We have in Islam Jihad, yes, but we will never do terrorism. Yes Jihad is very Islamic, so you don’t have to retreat from that.

Al-Azhar Sheikh Abdur-Rahman Al-Sudais, imam of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, is the highest-ranking cleric in the Sunni Muslim world. He has prayed to God to “terminate” the Jews and is a virulent anti-Semite to judge from his sermons:

[Jews are] the scum of the human race, the rats of the world, the violators of pacts and agreements, the murderers of the prophets, and the offspring of apes and pigs…
Read history and you will understand that the Jews of yesterday are the evil fathers of the Jews of today, who are evil offspring, infidels, distorters of [others’] words, calf-worshippers, prophet-murderers, prophecy-deniers... the scum of the human race ‘whom Allah cursed and turned into apes and pigs...’ These are the Jews, an ongoing continuum of deceit, obstinacy, licentiousness, evil, and corruption...

Look at Palestinian Media Watch
https://www.youtube.com/user/palwatch

Middle East Media Research Institute
https://www.youtube.com/user/MEMRITVVideos

Another invited speaker is Sheikh Assim Al-Hakeem, who says the punishment for gays is death:

In a video on YouTube in which he is asked whether being gay is wrong, Al-Hakeem says homosexuality is ‘unnatural’.
‘If you refer to the Old Testament, you will find that homosexuality is forbidden and the punishment for that is stoning to death. In Islam, the same thing applies.

He added: ‘Homosexuality is an abnormality which should be treated and should not be accepted as a normal thing.’

In answer to a question on his website, Al-Hakeem also compares gay people to ‘animals that seek only their sexual satisfaction through their weird ways’.

Al-Hakeem also calls for the death of those who leave Islam:

What is the penalty on a person who change his religion from islam to some other religion ?
This is apostasy and it is punishable by death in an Islamic society.
Sheikh Yee, another invitee, claims Jews celebrated the September 11 attacks, which weren’t the work of Muslims, and Jews are the real extremists:

The most extreme nation in this world is the Jews. So if they use ‘extremists,’ it doesn’t apply to Muslims. It applies to the Jews. They are the extremists of the world. That’s why they kill Palestinians every day.... [Jews] go to Hell.

Another invited speaker is Melbourne’s Sheikh Abu Ayman (aka Sheikh Omran), who long defended Osama bin Laden:
I dispute any evil action linked to bin Laden.
Later he was a little more equivocal - but only a little:
He is a good man in some ways, and not in other ways.

There is much more
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/if_wilders_is_wrong_explain_this_conference/

SF,

You may not fully comprehend that Islam, as a religion of peace, spread its religion of peace, first out of one corner of Arabia, to Syria and Mesopotamia, always giving the invaded populations the option of peaceful conversion, among a fairly small range of options.

Then they spread their message of peace, with its peaceful option and not-peaceful option, across north Africa, into Spain and southern France, and for centuries offered the southern coasts of Europe the same attractive options. Just coincidentally, Chinghiz Khan adopted Islam, the religion of peace, and spread its twin message across Asia, into Eastern Europe, and down into southern Asia, and eventually to India, even to Vietnam.

Yes, much of the entire world has already experienced the religion of peace, one way or another.

And Islam as a religion of equality, i.e. male equality, i.e. Muslim male equality - that's another story.

In 2013, 1300 years after Mo made up his fabulous story, a garbled version of various oral desert traditions, and half-understood bits of the Old and New Testaments, we happen to be seriously discussing this load of garbage, as if it deserved it.

Question: why ?!

Some atheists say: "Criticise all those who criticise those who criticise all religions."

Islamists say: "Behead all those who criticise Islam."

A barbaric ideology in a modern world. Amazing.

Joe

Here is part of a story what is happening in the UK, multiculturalism not likely.

Monday, January 11, at 19:30 GMT:

Is Islamic law coming to London? A series of ‘Muslim Patrol’ videos have gone viral over the past few weeks. They show a group of young men attempting to create ‘Muslim zones’ in the city. Although their actions have been condemned by the East London Mosque, they continue to patrol neighbourhoods and stop people they believe are not conforming to Islamic law.

I'm just so utterly sick & tired of religion. Listen all you superstitious mutts find yourselves something else to be scared of but leave the rest of us out of your nonsensical arguments. I say ban all religion in Public. Superstition has no place in enlightened society. Is that an oxymoron ?

Steven, I appreciate and agree entirely with your posts.

I have been rereading Sam Harris's treatise on Islam called The End of Faith.

Islam is as it was in the 7th century; it is a grave threat to Western secular society; it is astounding that Wilders, whatever else he has done, and his perfectly reasonable summation of Islam has been subject to so much vitriol not only from the witless left but even conservative politicians.

The left are witless on this subject as Nic Cohen pointed out in his book, What's Left; the left agitated for the removal of the Shah and were the first against the wall when the Mullahs took over.

But how to explain the words of such conservative politicians such as Barnett?

This author needs to explain the treatment of women within Islam and explain how he sees how a relentlessly authoritarian theology can adjust to the best social structure, the Western secular society.

I am deeply concerned by the capitulation and appeasement by Western leaders; it is all the more remarkable given a long overdue investigation into the Catholic Churches history of child abuse; Islam has worse atrocities being committed under its auspices yet we are silenced on that subject.

Loudmouth wrote:

>>In 2013, 1300 years after Mo made up his fabulous story, a garbled version of various oral desert traditions, and half-understood bits of the Old and New Testaments, we happen to be seriously discussing this load of garbage, as if it deserved it.>>

Y'know I used to think that Mo, unlike, say, Moses, definitely existed.

Turns out the evidence for his existence is weak. See for example:

The Hidden Origins of Islam: New Research into Its Early History: Karl-Heinz Ohlig (Editor), Gerd-R Puin (Editor)

http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Origins-Islam-Research-History/dp/1591026342

So not only are "we seriously discussing this load of garbage" but its supposed author probably never existed. The koran and the ahadith seem to be a concoction put together over a period of about 200 years.

Islam shows every sign of being a manufactured religion in the same sense as Scientology. It was probably crafted to suit the exigencies of empire.

individual wrote:

>>Listen all you superstitious mutts find yourselves something else to be scared of>>

Islam as a religion scares me not at all.

As an ideology it frightens the you-know-what out of me. It frightens me in the sense that I would have been frightened by Nazism had I been around in the 1930s.

Anyone who is not concerned about Islam does not understand the problem.

This is an ideology dedicated to genocide.

You all seriously need to look at the web site of Hizbut Tahrir

Part of what they say

http://www.hizb-australia.org/hizb-ut-tahrir/about-us

The work of Hizb ut-Tahrir is to carry the Islamic da'wah in order to change the situation of the corrupt society so that it is transformed into an Islamic society. It aims to do this by firstly changing the society's existing thoughts to Islamic thoughts so that such thoughts become the public opinion among the people, who are then driven to implement and act upon them. Secondly the Party works to change the emotions in the society until they become Islamic emotions that accept only that which pleases Allah (swt) and rebel against and detest anything which angers Allah (swt).

Finally, the Party works to change the relationships in the society until they become Islamic relationships which proceed in accordance with the laws and solutions of Islam. These actions which the Party performs are political actions, since they relate to the affairs of the people in accordance with the Shari'ah rules and solutions, and politics in Islam is looking after the affairs of the people, either in opinion or in execution or both, according to the laws and solutions of Islam.

This is a good insight into it
http://www.futuredirections.org.au/publications/indian-ocean/851-hizb-ut-tahrir-in-australia-urgent-need-for-international-engagement-and-counter-narrative.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir

More from this vile group. Uthman Badar has the gall to criticise Geert Wilders

Sydney demo: Uprising in the Muslim world 2011 [Jan 31 2011]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhrWpOkqUHE

15:50 Br. Wassim Doureihi
@32.11 To those who are before me today, to the Muslims in the West, to the Muslims in this country, I say to you that indeed are a part of this great ummah, let it be clear that you are not Australian, you are not British, you are not American, you are Muslim. Those who would divide you from the body of this ummah, let it be known that our allegiance is to Islam and Islam alone. That our support is to Muslims & to Muslims alone

Let it be known that you are part of this great ummah & don’t believe anyone that will suggest otherwise
We are not an ummah which will be content at the crumbs which are thrown at us. We are not an ummah which will be content at sharing the power. We are not an ummah which will be content to remain in a position of subjugation. We are not an ummah which will be confined to remain in artificial borders. We are not an ummah which will be content with sharing the power. We are not an ummah which will be content to accept the most vile rulers of mankind. We are the ummah of Mohamed blah blah

SF "Anyone who is not concerned about Islam does not understand the problem.

This is an ideology dedicated to genocide.'

Vis-a-vis the same is obvious in relation to the genocide currently being perpetrated between the Jews and Arab peoples in the West Bank (the few that are left that is) and the broader 'Palestine' lands.

Hypocrisy in your eyes obviously has no limit!

As to our Dutch visitor, give him all the freedom he needs. Religion is toxic and the less we learn or hear about it the better.

Talk about a revolving circle of criticism going nowhere!

Church and state people, Church and State.

All this coming from the representative of an organisation, Hizb-ut-Tahrir, which preaches violence and hatred.

E.g. FROM THEIR WEBSITE:

http://www.hizb-ut-tahrir.info/info/english.php/contents_en/entry_8271

Press Release

O Muslim Armies! Teach the Jews a lesson after which they will need no further lessons

March forth to fight them, eradicate their entity and purify the earth of their filth

Hizb ut-Tahrir organized a demonstration today to protest against the Jewish state's attack on relief ships bound for Gaza, in which dozens were killed and injured. The Muslims joining the demonstration called upon the Muslim armies to march forth to fight the Jews, eradicate Israel and purify the earth of Jewish filth. Indeed the Muslim armies must follow the footsteps of their forefather, Sa'ad ibn Mu'adh (RA) who taught the Jews of Banu Quraydah a lesson for their mischief. He ordered that their men should be killed, property divided and their women and children taken as captives. And Muhammad (SAW) said regarding this, "By Him in Whose Hand is the soul of Muhammad, Allah and the Muslims approved of your judgment and I shall execute it."

This is sick and disgusting. As this group preaches overt violence, they should be banned in Australia.

Wilders has never preached violence, and has his right to free speech.

Thought that posters on this thread may like to know that the Geert Wilders event was a sell out and the geert received a standing ovation.

Goes to show there are still many people in Sydney that have some national pride and common sense. We can see what is happening in Europe and UK. Hope the Libs take note of the events attendance. These people are prepared to stand up for our culture.

Oh, the protesters looked exactly the same ones that tried to stop people from hearing Pauline Hanson. The same unkempt, unwashed lot from unis. Bet the muslims regard them as 'usefull idiots'.

Thanks for that Banjo

I was unable to go. No doubt they were they same unwashed rabble that I encountered at the Max Brenner BDS action in Sydney.

"Vis-a-vis the same is obvious in relation to the genocide currently being perpetrated between the Jews and Arab peoples in the West Bank (the few that are left that is) and the broader 'Palestine' lands."

The Palestinians have a higher population rate of increase than Israel. That is not only a stupid comment it is a distraction and a rotten attmpt at eqivalence.

Israel is not infiltrating all the Western nations with a declared view of usurping the social and political structure of those nations.

I mean, how many times does the West need to be told by the leaders of Islam that they despise Western values and are working towards Sharia?

The first step in dealing with Islamic agitation is to commence prosecutions for hate speech. Wilders has not said anything like this:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/if_wilders_is_wrong_explain_this_conference/

Bolt asks:

"But for me there are even bigger questions. Why are politicians, journalists and Jewish leaders now demonising Geert Wilders for warning against exactly the ideology of Islam as preached by many speakers at this conference?

Why do they pretend Wilders has misrepresented Islam when the very things he describes are preached openly?

Why are they silent over or even complicit in attempts to silence or frighten Wilders - who has not advocated violence - yet apparently happy that true hate-preachers who preach death for gays, Jews and enemies of Islam may speak freely in this country?

Why the hypocrisy? Why the fear?"

Well, once people get it too good they lose sight of reality & stupidity becomes the new norm.
It's there for every non-stupid to see daily in the general media. Australians seem to be leading the way.

Gays, Jews, apostates, adulterers, atheists, women who want an education - it really is a pity that these individuals don't easily fit into this particular male-run Utopia and 'therefore' will have to be ...... 'extracted'.

A big task for a religion of peace.

Cheers,

Joe

Well cohenite I guess on this one we're on the same side :)

You're quite right about one thing. In Australia the danger does not stem from Islam so much as from the appeasement of this vile belief system.

I am not a fan of any religion but, whatever may have been the case in the past, in 2013 Islam is the most aggressive, regressive, violent, bloodthirsty, dishonest and dangerous of the major religions. People who pretend that is not the case or who purport to see some sort of moral equivalence between contemporary Islam and contemporary Christianity are being willfully ignorant. Ditto people who conflate an antipathy towards this grotesque ideology with racism.

Provided they keep within the law should suffer no discrimination or sanction because of their beliefs; but they do not have the right to silence people who subject their obnoxious religion to critique, analysis, satire and scorn

..And before the little band on OLO become too hysterical, isn't that which is being described in posts as obnoxious and anti-social of Muslims, applicable also to the evangelic spread of Christianity through history? I believe what we witness as the violent march of Islam is of our own making, fueled by a vivid imagination and a paranoia born of isolationism so representative of the West; we are witness to an Islamic “Evangelism” promoted by Western violence against Muslims (coincidentally), who happen to hold the oil wells in their sovereign territories.

...But in addition to the above thinking, I am a great supporter of the “Muslim Morality”. I believe it is past-time for Christianity to follow-suit and clean up its own act. Should it start maybe, by eliminating pedophile rings from the Catholic Church for example; the list is endless?

...Hysterical “stamping” of Muslims has all the hallmarks of a very successful propaganda machine of Western Democracies who have now fallen victim to its success

What is of more concern than the usual clique of inept pro-Moslem propagandists are those non-Moslem "useful idiots" who, perhaps naively, equate criticism of Islamic ideology with racism.

Here are two recent examples-

http://newmatilda.com/2013/02/21/geert-wilders-lightning-rod-racists

http://theconversation.edu.au/whos-afraid-of-geert-wilders-populism-and-the-politics-of-hate-12326

Their "One Big Idea" is anti-racism, they really appear monumentally ignorant of Islam and its history. The fact that Wilders is a right wing populist does not necessarily invalidate his critique of Islam.

diver dan,
well stated !

When one witnesses the Australians holidaying on Bali one, if one has an ounce of pride will cringe with embarrassment at their behaviour. One could be forgiven to think that Australians are some of the most uncultured & silly people on the planet. The only fact that separates them from the religious morons is that they haven't as yet got the violent streak. The moron factor is already in place though.

After the Sydney riots, allegedly because of the disrespectful US film lampooning Mohammed, these 2 articles were published at The Drum:

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4264412.html

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4270342.html

The first is by 2 Muslim women; they claim the Film "is a horribly Orientalist portrayal of Islam, one in which the Prophet Mohammed is portrayed in the most offensive of ways."

In rejecting satire directed at Islam they slur orientals! The rest of the article is a panegyric about the religion of peace with no sense of irony that criticism of Islam is because it is not what it says it is and that people judge it on its actions rather than its hypocritical disclaimers.

The second article does not even bother with such subtleties [sic]. In it Morsi justifies the non-moderate muslim who rejects what he sneeringly describes as the "good citizen" by "pushing back the police picket line to create new forms of citizenry."

The author of this piece is another 'academic' Muslim who rejects the secular society. Badar's other piece at Unleashed does so on the pretext that secularism is irrational while a religious belief like Islam is rational:

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/42672.html

This is telling:

"Devoid of a rational argument for secularism (compromise solutions are never strictly rational), advocates resort to a rather romanticised view of it as a neutral system which allows for a pluralist society where everyone is free to practice their individual beliefs. Yet secularism is built on a specific worldview and is no more neutral than any other ideology. It disallows those parts of other worldviews which contradict with it, just as they would."

This is junk. Badar is saying that because secularism prevents monolithic world views like Islam from stopping other religious or non-religious views secularism is as bad as Islam is made out to be. In short secularism is bad and irrational because it does not allow Islam to eradicate other world views.

Such is the 'intellectual' justification for Islam.

cohenite,

I think that the women are referring to Edward Said's definition of "Orientalism" which is a sub category of racism, they're just playing the standard race card.

"Lighting rod for Racists"
Wilders is not a racialist and when the word "Racist" is used it's a polite code word for "Nationalist", what the ruling castes truly fear is any sort of soil Nationalism because it's a direct threat to their economic and political hegemony. Liberal democracy has nowhere to go, it's degenerated into a religious cult of Xenophilia and pathological altruism wherein it's adherents seek to outdo each other in their displays of piety and devotion to the ideal of "diversity".
It's not that Islam is powerful in this country, the fear is that the ruling castes are so weak, corrupt and blinded by their faith that they are incapable of dealing with Muslim and Islamist foot stamping and bullying in a rational way, as soon as the "R word" is used they fall to their knees and plead for forgiveness.

...There appears to be a “void” of rational argument on this subject. Secularism has long ago subdued Christianity and robed it of resolve. It has achieved this with science and an all-out attack by “Immoralists”. Christianity is defeated in moral terms.

...Stage two of the war against morality for the secularists, is shaping-up to be a “doozy”. The war is based on irrational misinformation and outright lies aimed currently at Islam. The lesson for secularists is simply that the war is not yet won; but the two foes are finally in the open!

"The war is based on irrational misinformation and outright lies aimed currently at Islam."

What are those "outright lies" and "irrational misinformation"? Chapter and verse thanks just so we know you are not a complete ratbag.

Dan that's not true,
There around the same number of Christians in the world as there are Muslims, Christianity is one of the fastest growing faiths. If you think "secularism" has overtaken religion in the West you must be talking about so called "secular humanism" ie that branch of Protestant Christianity which eschews God and Jesus.
It's interesting the way opposition to Christianity is never described as "racist" even though it's overwhelmingly a non White religion, most of the Christians of the world live in Africa and South America but we don't hear Wilders and his cronies whining about the millions of African Christians who are also invading Europe. What about the Chinese? There are massive numbers of Chinese emigrating to Europe too and as we all know they have an extremely detrimental effect on society, driving down wages with their price fixing and anti competitive behaviour. Not a peep from Wilders.

Cohenite :

Grapple with the following reality:

...To an Islamist, portraying them as the enemy is irrational.

...Outright lie: That Muslims are a problem in society,

...Truth: Secularists imposing irreligious immoral liberal values on Muslims is antagonistic; Muslim reaction to this is defensive and forgivable.

...And I will strongly avoid fueling by further engagement, one of your "rants"

As an Atheist, I can't take any religion seriously and subsequently I can't take those of faith seriously, the same way I can't take Adults who believe in Santa Clause or the Toothfairy seriously and wonder at their state of mind. If they left well enough alone, like those who babble out loud to the voices in their head, one could leave them to themselves and respect their right to self delusion but they appear to not want to afford me that same right of being left un-accosted.

That aside, Muslims appear to be on the whole the worst of the lot. While there are nasty factions in all branches of religions, once people start killing over cartoons or say it's okay to assassinate a person who writes books (Rushdie) then they loose any credibility and should not even be in the debate.

"Grapple with the following reality"

Religious conviction is not a reality.

"Truth: Secularists imposing irreligious immoral liberal values on Muslims is antagonistic; Muslim reaction to this is defensive and forgivable."

My mistake; you are a complete ratbag.

cohenite quote "My mistake; you are a complete ratbag." Took you a while to work that out, should try reading some of his other dribble.

Some people are best ignored, you have just had communication with 1 of them.

Phillip S :

...Beware the undercurrent of the "spatial Turn"! The problem with Islam is George Bush!

...The word you are looking for is "Drivel" poor simple fool. Now what part of everyday logic don't you understand?

Hi Dan,

Just a bit of up-date: Bush hasn't been president for more than four years.

Can you give us a bit of a hint about what on earth you mean by "Secularists imposing irreligious immoral liberal values on Muslims is antagonistic' ?

Are you saying that secularism is immoral ? And that secularists, meaning, I suppose, humanists, atheists, liberal democrats, etc., impose their values on Muslims ?

By that, do you mean, values like human equality, scientific enquiry, freedom of expression etc. ? What used to be called Enlightenment values, before the pseudo-left retreated into the arms of pre-feudalists.

And by 'impose', do you mean the Australian state imposing these human values on backward groups like pre-feudalist Islamists ?

I fervently hope that the Australian government, authorities, system, etc. 'imposes values' of equality, enquiry and freedom on everybody, do the extent that it does at all.

I fervently hope that the Australian state will always be based on a foundation of equality, enquiry and freedom of expression, or at least be striving to do so.

And if any backward groups or individuals can't tolerate that, then they can go somewhere else and wallow in their backwardness.

Is that what you are talking about, or are you just a fruit-loop ?

Only asking :)

Cheers,

Joe

Sorry Joe,

...I failed to mention John Howard with George bush!

...And why don't you choose for me Joe, Fruit Loop or not? When you post the result I'll then know what pathetic category to pigeonhole you into.

...My; this name calling is getting exciting! And by the way, my "Whistle-Blower" Magazine has explored the theory that Barack Obama is a closet Muslim. Dear oh dear things are getting bad in the West...Suck eggs!

Joe:

Peradventure you failed to read this in my post above, here it is again! Just for you!

#..And before the little band on OLO become too hysterical,(Too late), isn't that which is being described in posts as obnoxious and anti-social of Muslims, applicable also to the evangelic spread of Christianity through history? I believe what we witness as the violent march of Islam is of our own making, fueled by a vivid imagination and a paranoia born of isolationism so representative of the West; we are witness to an Islamic “Evangelism” promoted by Western violence against Muslims (coincidentally), who happen to hold the oil wells in their sovereign territories...#

Hi Dan,

So ...... it's fruit-loop then ?

Are you suggesting that the West is responsible for everything that Islamists do ? The 1800 terrorist attacks/bombings of markets and schools etc., since 2001 ? That's it's all the fault of the West ?

At least have enough respect for the intelligence, evil as it may be, of the Islamists, gutless as they may be, to conclude that they can initiate their own horrible bombings without some CIA operative leaning over their shoulders, or that they can plot and plan to blow up women and children in market-places and schools without some directive, or even provocation, from the west.

They are not puppets, and neither can they use the p1ss-weak ecuse that whatever they do, however horrible, it's all because of the West, or Jews, or bankers, or whatever out-group they want to focus on, that made them do it. They make their own disgusting decisions.

Neither they nor you can blame anybody else for those decisions.

But if you wish to be one of their useful idiots, go for it.

The arrogance of the pseudo-left, their belief that they can somehow, eventually, take control of events, to use and dictate to a bunch of thugs, is staggering in its naivety and in its opportunism.

They will use you and spit you out when you have served their purpose. So who then is puppet, who is puppet-master ?

Cheers,

Joe

Joe,

…I have stated pretty accurately my opinions and the reasoning behind them, why the Wests confrontation with the Islamist is so vindictive. The West with its constant and brutal wars in and against Islamic states, for the sole purpose of controlling oil wells is legendary.

…We will pay for this folly for many years. But I think what is worse is the plague of “immoralism” gifted to them as a tribute and a consequence to the wars presented now as the new way of Democracy.

...The evidence is before us of serious instability in the Muslim world and rise of Islamic fundamentalism as a response, not too dissimilar to the Christian version, (A rebellion against Liberalism), but much more violent. The fight is for the Morality of Islam, the fundamentals of Islam are under severe threat from the West. The new war rages!

… Democracy with its flag of Liberal /Secularism is a curse and a failure to all but corporate giants. It is crushing the life from all affected by its rule! As I said above, I believe this war will be a “doozy” and its coming to a neighborhood near you!

...Insulting language is unbecoming Joe, particularly for you!

Valley Guy,
As I said in my first post, Wilders isn't guilty of perpetuating any gross factual errors in regard to Islam but his motivation for doing so is questionable.
He's right when he says Islam is not a religion any more than German National Socialism was a religion, to an atheist it should be obvious that the two are comparable systems.
The problem there is that he's exploiting popular misconceptions about the 1933-45 era, namely that the horrible carnage of world war two was necessary because Hitler wanted to "take over the world" and that our grandfathers had a moral duty to save the Jews.
This is dangerous, we on the Radical right are seemingly the only ones who express the fear of another catastrophic European war based on these fallacies, when Wilders likens Islam to Nazism he's asking us to think of it in exactly the same way, as Bakunin said, "Fascism is not to be debated it is to be smashed!".
There are 44 million Muslims in Europe, we "Racists" fear, more than anything another scenario like the Balkan Wars of the 1990's, where White men are driven to fighting each other over the interests of Muslims and we greatly fear that that is exactly where Wilders and his friends would lead Europe.
How could 44 million people be dislodged from Europe without recourse to warfare, that is to say warfare between Europeans?

"The evidence is before us of serious instability in the Muslim world and rise of Islamic fundamentalism as a response"

Islam is today as it was 1300 years ago; noone and nothing made Islam except itself; you're a serious DH.

Hi Dan,

I apologise if you feel I have insulted you. Wait for the new Roxon laws and then you can sue me :)

But Islamist terrorism is "not too dissimilar to the Christian version, (A rebellion against Liberalism)" - so you would go into bat for Opus Dei as well ? Is that where the Witless Left of Australia (WLA) stands these days ?

You then make the perfectly honest qualification: " ... but much more violent." Yes, indeed with some 1,800 terrorist attacks around the world since 2001, they are a bit more violent that the most rat-bag Christian groups. Not even Opus Dei can match that.

So what is this "Morality of Islam" if not a repudiation of gender equality, a rejection of standard freedoms (especially the freedom of belief, or non-belief) and an uncritial worship of the unchangeable Word, the Book, the Desert 'Knowledge' ? i.e. a rejection of all of the freedoms and hard-won human rights gains that the West has had to go through a thoudand years of persecution for ? A struggle that Islam has not yet begun, by the way.

So there it is for the WLA - choose the certainties of a backward ideology, or take the risks thrown up by the imperfect, hard-won and human Enlightenment.

It's your choice.

By the way, why do you think the West, esp. the US, is so keen to diminish its reliance on oil, by developing renewable sources of energy, and to do so by promoting the menace of AGW ? And could that diminishing reliance be one reason for resentment against the West in the oil-producing countries ?

Joe

Some more footage has emerged of the counter protest against Wilders out at the La Mirage reception centre in Melbourne:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjPtGRe_GGQ&feature=player_embedded
The guy in the grey shirt assaulting the older man is Yarra city councillor Anthony Main, the bald guy is is Main's sidekick and fellow UNITE union organiser Alex Sproule.

JOM:

Mains twitter A/C suddenly dead in the water since 21 Feb. Maybe he's where he should be! The "Blue-Alliance" springs to mind.

Dan

Hi Cdan,

I apologise yet again for seeming to offend you: I lay awake at nights trying to work out how and where.

But in the meantime, you may gain something from this article by a good friend of mine:

http://www.quadrant.org.au/magazine/issue/2013/3/choosing-to-be-offended

There's a lot of that around. I remember arguing with an Aboriginal student back in about 1996 and he simply said "You're a racist." When I asked him swhy he thought so, he said simply, "You're disagreeing with me."

Well, on the continuum, there's disagreement, there's argument, there's offensive remarks, there's insults, there's incitement to smack some idiot in the mouth, and there's incitement to attack smebody because of their ethnicity/race/gender/suppot for Western Sydney Giants.

Cheers,

Joe

Joe:

Sleep well!! Serious.