So it's perfectly OK to be a hapless incompetent if your earliest predecessor was a hapless incompetent too? Got it! You know, this religious logic thing is easier than I thought.

This line from the article crystallizes the problem.

>>...a Petrine Ministry... cannot be compared with CEO, or MD, president or monarch because all of these are seats that are made on earth, not made in heaven<<

Which goes a long way to explaining why it is that a supposed human being (who, incidentally, was himself "made on earth", and in Nazi Germany of all places) believes that he can reject the idea that his organization has wilfully covered up the crimes of its management team for so long.

It is significant too that his inaction was much in the mould of the CEO of a company in scandal's spotlight, who has been advised by his PR flacks that to admit such failings of governance would permanently tarnish the firm's image in the marketplace.

As every corporate disaster consultant will tell you, this is a very short-sighted strategy, one that will eventually have the exact opposite result to that which was anticipated.

"Can the Petrine Ministry of popes seriously be compared with the tenure of global CEOs?"

Depends… Many global CEOs would regard themselves as god's representative on earth if not god himself – though the customers of their corporations probably wouldn't.

But it is an interesting analogy, this Petrine business with a corporation. It's a magnificent business model, given that shareholder value and dividend receipts are deferred until after the death of the individual and not payable on the same plane of existence as that in which the income was derived.

In addition, when the receivers are sent in it's a good thing – as they're only there for the wine and crackers.

I've never read such a silly article!

Surely the author cannot believe that in this modern day, anyone would believe that the Popes 'are made in heaven' .

The Popes are 'made' by their parents, and are just as human as anyone else on earth, and no more 'important' than anyone else.

I hope that the next Pope is not an elderly, sick man again. It was quite painful watching the last Pope drag himself around when he was so obviously ill.

Popes should be made to vacate their position if they are not physically able to do their job. It is cruel to make them go on if they are too frail.

Anyone who believes or promotes this nonsense must have rocks in their head. Even more so if they are not a "catholic".

"Popes are made in Heaven" what utter rubbish, popes are made with a sperm and egg uniting here on good old earth. But then anyone who waddles around in a white outfit with outstretched hands can make a lot of stupid people believe that he has been ordained by some superior being in heaven, out of a whiff of white smoke, men only have decided in a boardroom who is going to be their next leader, nothing more nothing less, nothing to do with fairies in the sky.

Ah yes, the greatest story ever told!
If we believe it, then we believe that a mere humble fisherman, was its first appointed leader, and maybe his Daughter was its second.
That humble folk met in one another's houses, to break bread in the manner of friends and close associates.
That they spent not as much as a single thin dime on edifices, to glorify God or Rome!
Such money as they came by, was almost immediately redistributed to help the poor and less well off, or the sick and disabled!
They walked, like any common man or woman among the people and were of the people!
There was no MAN-MADE confessional or celibacy!
And they had the mark of God, the holy spirit, on them, in as much as, they were able to spontaneously speak in many other tongues, and or heal the sick and dying, just by laying their hands on them!?
Not very much of that sort of thing happening in any of today's churches?
Could it be the Holy Ghost, has given up, and stormed off in sheer disgust, at the malevolent monster a highly commercialised, elitist, tax and responsibility avoiding, paedophile riddled, politicised church has become.
To the point where even a former Nazi youth member, could become its crowned, autocratic, sanctimonious, cannot err head!
Were Jesus here to day, walking among us, would he pick up the whip of legend, and storm once again through his Father's many mansions, whipping out all those that did not truly belong there or represent/do his Father's work or bidding?
And or, set the record straight on what he did or didn't say, and or the many re-interpretations or new meanings, given to the words of a plain speaking man, who spoke with absolute candour, to a population largely illiterate!
Indeed, he went out of his way, with many analogies, to ensure his words or stories, couldn't be reinvented or reinterpreted, for nefarious purposes!
In no way would such a man speak in riddles, that then had to be reinterpreted by the educated elite or power hungry!
Rhrosty.

If the papacy is made in heaven how come some of them, eg John XII, Alexander VI, came straight from hell. The early Church knew nothing of a papacy as we know it. Our version is the result of a history of development and is based on imperialistic models.

Many people who advocate the kind of old-time religion promoted by this petrine clown argue that without such a "God" people will believe almost anything, and that everything will be permitted.

It seems to me that the reverse is actually the case.
Which is to say that anyone who accepts this petrine nonsense and the fanciful nonsense promoted on the Wednesday essay on the pope, can and will believe almost any and every kind of absurd nonsense.
Furthermore the historical record shows in unequivocal terms that everything was always permitted, and what is more, justified in the name of this fanciful tribalistic "god".

Such people could do with a heavy dose of Penetrine/Penetrene which is very good for removing rust and other encrusted gunk.

Fair enough, this article is rather ill-conceived (and rather poorly executed), and the author has opened up the proverbial 'bag of worms' for all the naysayers to get stuck in with their knives flashing and their teeth bared, but really, we've heard all the pokes and jibes before, haven't we?

You don't believe, so you have to pour scorn on all those poor (and in your view, deluded) wretches who aren't so certain that 'this is all there is', who take guidance from those texts you deride as mere fabrication, and use their 'faith' as a motivation to lead a good life and to embody tolerance and goodwill towards others. Yeh, they're a really good 'soft target', just begging for any cheap shot you can level. Mustn't let them down, eh?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was - 'big bang'. Terrific. And, whiz, bang, wha-da-ya-know, flash of light, and there was LIFE, and it was good! Ripper, nature arrives, and with it the supreme, all-knowing pinnacle of (natural) Creation - Man. And Man unraveled the mystery of Everything, which was - I am the alpha and the omega, cripes I'm good! (He was an Aussie of course.) And off he goes to K-Mart to claim his 'booty', with nary a care in the world - clever fellow. And that's all there is, so let's have a party! (TBC>)

(Cont'd):

God may not be great, may not even exist - except as a construction of Man to help solve the age-old question, "Why am I here?" There is no 'proof' of God - just some ripping yarns whipped up to try and 'explain' a whole lot of 'inexplicable' events, when our Aussie really was just a dunce. And since then God has been used for good (sometimes), and for ill (maybe a lot more times), but eventually, through all the trials, came 'civilisation'. Hold on! Nazis, Pol Pot, Taliban, Maoists, .. is God's work never to be done? Nah, we should just scrap God, and all will be better, won't it? So, let's toss a coin - Heads=God, Tails=blank; and 'Blank' Wins, so go ahead and beat the crap out of one another for as long as - ?

Who would you trust more, a Christian with a bible, or a Jihadist with an AK47? Coin toss?

Benedict XV1 is a man, and may not have been a good choice, or the 'right' choice for Il Papa, but humans can't get it right all of the time. However, John Paul II was a true icon - if ever 'Man' held the 'light' in his inner being, it was this man. Show me a better, if you can.

A billion and more who bid you no ill. Can you not reciprocate, or at least Live and Let Live? (Would it really harm you to do so?)

Saltpetre you are doping exactly the same as we of the non believing brigade "lets bag them" they are all sinfull, show no compassion,think only of themselves etc. From an outsiders view of the Pope I see an ordinary man dressed expensively and his Cardinals likewise, living in a life of luxury that the poor people of his domain will never ever have the pleasure to live likewise. Jesus Christ was a man who dressed poorly and was of the poor people, there was no pomp and ceremony such as the Catholic Church now shows at every opportunity.
All so called Christian churches now and in the past have always been a warmongering group, as example the leaders Bush, Blair, Howard, Downer, Rudd.,Obama etc are all of this faith and all hold the bible in one hand and a gun in the other, these people create wars, so to your question which would I prefer, the Taliban (religion) or a Bible basher (religion) it is neither, give me a good old Atheist any day, at least we do not try to convert people at every opportunity to join them to the ways of the Bible .

Anyone who pretends that John Paul II was a "true icon" just hasnt done their homework.
Being pedantic as usual I strongly recommend the book by David Yallop The Power & the Glory - The Dark Heart of John Paul IIs Vatican.
A book which thoroughly deconstructs the carefully cultivated image of "holiness" associated with JP II.
Then of course there is always this truth-telling website (with links)
http://popecrimes.blogspot.com

I'm quite surprised at the level of venom that's emerged about this Pope 'pulling the pin' ? The hells sake he's just an old man, ostensibily retiring due to ill health, therefore just let the bloke go !

Though by some of the language employed herein it sounds like he's the brother in law to Hitler, or Stalin.

I've no truck with religion. I lost all my religion at the foot of the Long Hai's, back in the mid sixties, but I don't go around, demeaning and humiliating the Catholic Church or any other religion for that matter. Gees, there's enough misery and violence in the world today, and if people gain some comfort or relief with their troubled lives, from organised Christian religion, then that's really great, and I'll certainly support it ! I'd much rather they sing Hymns, then turn-up for the morning muster in Long Bay Gaol !

And I'm certainly not seeking to lead the 'cheer squad' in support of the Christian Church, or any other religious group for that matter. I couldn't give a stuff about it, or anyone in it.

By the same token I don't believe anyone has the right to deliberatly set out to mock and malign all of those who choose to follow their Church and it's belief systems. Nor has anyone the right to devalue or humiliate anyone for subscribing to their practices either!

It must be so nice to have the academic ability to quietly sit back and 'intellectualize' about the evils and foibles associated with organised religion. As well as possess the deep intellectual shrewdness and sagacity to know all things, and see all things ?

Myself, I know I'm relatively ignorant about most things. And I'm more than happy to remain that way, and when necessary defer to others who know better. Just an uneducated, retired copper. At least I'm still firmly in touch with reality, in my own suspicious, pragmatic way.

O Sung Wu if we do not have people like Daffy Duck who question the media and its lies, we are all lost, he or she is obviously well read, after reading the website supplied it really concerns me how the public are manipulated to a way of thinking, which consistently is nothing but lies, if you feel that money, and the Vatican is exceedingly wealthy , and is not worth questioning then the media have won, and this is what they want, let's look at the situation with the new Pope, if he has already been chosen then let the press know now to report as such, not pull the wool over every ones eyes when a puff of white smoke emerges," the new God chosen Pope has arrived".
The people on earth are manipulated very easily by the press, not only on this subject but most other readings daily, especially when it comes to war. When are we ever going to get the truth?

I do not agree that the apostle Peter was the first Pope. That is just Roman Catholic propaganda.
I also do not believe that the Pope is infallible.
He makes mistakes, just like the rest of us.
He is just a man, like any other man, a sinner who needs to repent.
I am a born-again christian, and do not recognise any roman catholic authority.
However,I do accept that the Bible has more authority than the Vatican or any person who is held captive by the authority of the Vatican.

Now, that is the Truth.

G'afternoon to you OJNAB...

Yeah I do understand, and I appreciate your point. The bloke's just a bloke, skin and bone like us all, I realise that.

It's just in my time, when I was in the job, I've seen so many young people, M & F to the point of suicide and somehow these Christian people 'lobbed' and pulled 'em back from the brink. True, ultimately some of them did manage to neck themselves, but others didn't.

Even when I was in the detectives, I carried a card given me by the then, deputy Director of 'Lifeline' in Darlinghurst, in Sydney. You'd have a potential suicide, give them a ring and often by just that brief intercession on my part, you may be able to save a life, and a helluva lot of paperwork too !.

Please, OJNAB don't think of me as some 'goody two shoes', if they want to neck themselves, OK do it ! Trouble is, it does create a lot of paperwork for police. ID at the morgue, custody private property of deceased, inform the 'rellies', institute peripheral inquiries, and finally the Coroners Court. You see, sometimes a five or ten minute chat, a phone call or two, can occasionally avoid all that work ?

In all the time I spent as a copper and detective, there are very few suicides amongst younger people, where the victim actually WANTED to neck themselves. Mostly, it's a call for help. Just a talk, a shoulder to cry on...something, few actually want to die ! One young girl c.19-25, I gave her 10 out of my own wallet, she was so distressed, worried she would receive another dreadful hiding from her brutish father...long story, I had a 'robust' chat with him, seemed to work, last I heard (there's some real 'maggots' around) ? That's been my experience, having spoken to many survivors and witnesses !

I'm sure some 'boofheaded' academic will tell us all differently ?

Thanks OJNAB for your response.

and the choice of the last 3 Labour leaders? Those in favour should butt right out of this one.

Why the venom?
Remorse from putting 5 cents on the plate as a kid?
Each to their own.

@carnivore: Why the venom?

Oh, I don't know -- how about institutionalized misogyny, child rape committed, condoned and covered-up, taxpayers' money spent on supporting a corrupt and wealthy hierarchy, billions of dollars channelled from third world nations to the Vatican, governments fawning to a phony 'head of state', Tim Fischer's salary, Amanda Vanstone's salary, deaths from AIDS caused by papal opposition to contraception, deaths of women caused by papal opposition to abortion, years of agony caused by papal opposition to assisted dying... is that enough to go on with, do you think?

Correct Jon J ,this is what the press should be reporting , the truth about the Vatican and all of its corruption, how misled the gullible public are.

Anti-Catholic and anti-Christian feeling sometimes
bubbles to the surface in this country. One sees
anti-Catholicism in the comments made about Catholics
that you would never hear made about other religions,
except for the possible exception of Islam.

In contrast, church leaders often use this to claim that
the collapse in religious belief and practice isn't
really their fault. That it's not about Church structure,
poor leadership, dull sermons, uninspired ministry,
lifeless worship or the failure to address the real issues
facing contemporary society that has led so many people
to abandon the Church. It is really the fault of the
materialism and relativism of the unwashed punters. That
it's society that has to change, not justified and righteous
Church leaders.

Dear oh dear.

JON J...

So shall we place all the world's woes at the feet of Christians, more specifically, the Catholics ? You really don't get it do you ?

I couldn't care less, what you allege the Catholic Church has done. Two things I said earlier. Personally, I believe in nothing ! Secondly as I said, there are many people, millions in fact all over the world, who continue to derive a great deal of comfort and peace, (even support), from all branches of the Christian religion, including those dreadful Catholics.

You've alleged herein JON J, the Catholic Church has committed every imaginable crime and evil against humanity ? Therefore in order to arbitrarily divest the Church of some of their power and influence, you'd be very happy to see many of these ignorant people give up their faith, and their peace. Ostensibily all because of your shock revelations of wrongdoing by them. Is that the thrust of what you argue for ? Then who or what exactly, would you have them turn too, for that same degree of peace and faith they had before your denouncement and vilification of Christanity, and more specifically the Catholic Church ?

Perhaps it could be you, JON J ? Hail JON J., the great emancipator of all those poor deluded fools, who were hitherto under the terrible yoke and tyranny of the atrocious Catholic Church !

I'll tell you another fact for nothing too my academic friend, in the jungles of South Vietnam, it was the Priests, Ministers, Pastors and Rabbis, that came around to our FSB's, 'the Dat' and other shitholes in the place. Not the academics, they were too busy back home, demonstarting against the war and all of us in the war, yeah that's what they were doing JON J.

And may I share a secret with you as to why they were demonstrating JON J. ? Because many of them....................? No, JON J. I'll keep 'my powder dry', and I'll leave that little piece for another time ?

@o sung wu: "You've alleged herein JON J, the Catholic Church has committed every imaginable crime and evil against humanity ? Therefore in order to arbitrarily divest the Church of some of their power and influence, you'd be very happy to see many of these ignorant people give up their faith, and their peace. Ostensibily all because of your shock revelations of wrongdoing by them. Is that the thrust of what you argue for ? Then who or what exactly, would you have them turn too, for that same degree of peace and faith they had before your denouncement and vilification of Christanity, and more specifically the Catholic Church ?"

1. No, I haven't.
2. I'd be happy to see anyone -- not just Catholics -- give up their religious faith. If you think that religious belief is necessary for people to achieve 'peace', then you need to explain how it is that many atheists have attained exactly that. Or are you taking the patronising view that although YOU don't need 'faith', we should let dumb people hold on to it to keep them placid?
3. Why should they need to 'turn to' anyone other than themselves?

JON J...

I couldn't care less what you or any of your atheists mates believe or not believe ? In your original thread you sanctimoniously castigate the entire Catholic Church, while taking the superior (albeit intellectual) high ground accusing the Church of everything !

What's YOUR problem with them ? What have they done to you ? Chuck you out ah ? You 'bleat on' that I'm patronising anyone who receives some benefit from the Church ? I say good on 'em. Don't you like the idea that Catholics are receiving some comfort and a bit of happiness ? Well that's tough pal ! Them's the breaks !

I believe in absolutely nothing, you're born, you live, you die. I'm comfortable with that proposal. That's me, so what ? What I'm NOT comfortable with, is some little man, acting as the supreme fount of all knowledge, when in reality, he knows squat ! Do the Catholic Church have problems ? You bet, so do many other large organisations.

I wouldn't care a toss, if you'd said that God and all that stuff, is rubbish - just science fiction. I've no problem with that.

However, there are many other 'good' people out there who really enjoy and receive a lot of goodness from their Church and from their religious beliefs within Catholicism. Without some 'person' belittling, abusing, and engaging in all manner of disparaging, deprecatory language, calculated to insult and degrade, these people's faith, and those who are chosen to lead that faith.

And I reckon it's a real low act for some 'person' to bounce into the equation spruiking insults !

There's something 'about' you my friend. Something weird, that you seem to have this almost narcissistic need to so comprehensively denigrate the largest Church within the Christian system ?

Seems that you, JON J. Vs The Catholic Church, an individual who's apparently bereft of any and all liberality of other people's beliefs and faiths ? Odd really. and I don't mean the Church ?

@o sung wu: "What I'm NOT comfortable with, is some little man, acting as the supreme fount of all knowledge, when in reality, he knows squat!"

You've just given an absolutely spot-on perfect description of the Pope.

"...some 'person' belittling, abusing, and engaging in all manner of disparaging, deprecatory language, calculated to insult and degrade, these people's faith, and those who are chosen to lead that faith."

Yes, stupid beliefs are stupid. Religious beliefs are demonstrably so. The Catholic faith is no more rational than the belief that Spotty the Galactic Worm is about to start snacking on Jupiter, or that North Korea is about to launch a missile attack on Canberra. Do you really want to argue that people should be allowed to believe any nonsense they like, and to act as if those beliefs are true?

"And I reckon it's a real low act for some 'person' to bounce into the equation spruiking insults !"

What if I were pointing out the logical consequences of ALP or Liberal doctrine, or Communism, or fascism? Would you be equally upset? And yet those flawed beliefs have also given people a great deal of comfort in the past. Why should a religion be immune to criticism when political beliefs are not?

If you want to shut down all criticism of irrational beliefs you are going to have to shut down this whole site, along with many others. If you only want to shut down criticism of the Catholic Church you will have to explain why. Your claim to be a wholehearted atheist is sounding a little shrill.

Yeah, that's me JON J...just a 'shrill' defender of the faith !

When I joined the coppers way back in the late sixties, I was first stationed at Darlinghurst. One of the heavies there was a bloke named
Frank 'Bumper' Farrell, an Inspector at the time, (most likely a misguided Catholic too ?) - a man though feared by the average probationary constable, was well respected nevertheless ?

One of the many little gems of wisdom he chose to share with me as a new bloke. '...never argue with a mug...' ?

Good afternoon to you JON J.

Was that the "Brown Paper bag" NSW inspector !!

Hi there KIPP...

No it wasn't , I can only gather from your remarks, you dislike coppers, that's fine, I can live with that. Actually, Frank Farrell was a top Rugby League player, I've forgotten his team though. He was in the front row, hence he had the most pronounced cauliflower ears one would every hope to see.

He was a 'bit of a lad' in his time. One tough ol' time copper was Frank 'Bumper' Farrall !

The corrupt 'bloke' you're referring to, was 'Chook' Fowler A/OIC of Detectives at the Cross at the time. Caused a real 'stench' amongst all the good detectives after those revelations. In fact KIPP, those of us who still had kiddies at school, their mate's would say to them,'...my Dad says your Dad's a crook and bad ? Does wonders for a stable family life, I can tell you.

Hi sung wu. Thank you for your common sense and democratic remarks about a person's right to believe , even where you do not ascribe to those beliefs.

It is a pity that rabid 'atheists' – you are probably right – lapsed 'micks' in many cases,- can't help but froth at the mouth when someone espouses about religion, especially Christianity and more particularly of the Catholic variety. There are intelligent atheists around that one can have an intelligent debate with, but DDs and JJs hardly fit that picture from what I have seen of their contributions over time. They tend to be totalitarian in nature, although they don't realise it, as are zealots of any ideology!

I am a Catholic and I do respect Pope Benedict for the man he is and for the part he has played as Pope, a gentle humble man, a learned theologian, .who what ever his shortcomings in management ability has tried to bring the message of Christ, of peace and justice, goodwill, of the forgiveness of God to all men. I am not perturbed over the scribblings of journalists like Yallop (and yes I have read some of his works) . Likewise I had respect for JP2, a man of tremendous character and courage, and one who tried to give leadership to very disparate lot that call themselves 'Catholic' – including some (too many) of the clergy who fail(ed) dismally to live up to their vows whether because of the heinous crime of paedophilia or other forms of corruption. Unfortunately, as I have remarked before, human frailty and ignorance has been displayed right through human history even with the Apostles of Jesus himself. We see this intellectual arrogance and yes even hatred, it in these Forum Debates by those who bitterly use ad hominem arguments to mock and vilify those who have a different world view or belief than their own

Part 2
The fact that humanity is flawed, this character included, does not in itself detract from the message of Faith that religion brings to those who believe. We know we are not perfect, that it is hard to live up what Christianity demands of its followers, particularly in a modern world where hedonistic pleasures of all descriptions are there for the taking. To try and be humble, caring and considerate of others, as many do try, is seen by many others as weakness. It is the greed of mankind in any form, that leads to social problems – of abject poverty for many, broken marriages, drug cultures, the evils of abortion, suicides and social alienation to name a few.

Good evening to you BAGSYL...

Please don't misunderstand me, I'm in no way a defender of the Christian faith, nor the Catholic Church.

All I can attest too is what I've seen. I'm very pragmatic, not particularly well educated, and no saviour or supporter of a God of any kind. But what I have seen with some of the most sad, dreadfully unhappy people, I've had to deal with over the years, is that some of them have revisited their Catholic beliefs, and as such managed to turn their miserable lives around !

Is that not a good thing ? Or would you have them declare aloud, '...I know all this religion and stuff is all bunkum, and now I've been set free from that lousy Church, and their idiotic, corrupt Priests...' while I'm being conveyed out to Long Bay in the back of a Ford F250, to do 'ten' with an 'eight', and having just been told by the Family Court, to keep well away from my ex wife, and our two kids !

No longer a practicing Christian nor a Catholic, just another crim lost in the system....don't matter really, he's at least been set free from all that religious stuff, so eh !

Good result eh BAGSYL ! Trouble is with people like JON J and his many warped cohorts, they've seen so little of real life, and they're so intractably ensnared in their own dreary, academic arrogance, they have this rather pathetic need to attack anything and anybody, that they themselves don't and can't understand. Sad really ?

Have a good night BAGSYL.

In the US there have been massive payouts to Catholic abuse victims through the courts as well as court-ordered naming-and-shaming of abusers, so now the good guys are taking back control of the church - http://www.smh.com.au/world/abuse-scandal-hits-new-pope-selection-20130219-2eo5b.html

What a pity our legal system allows the Catholic church to claim that there is no legal entity for victims to claim compensation from.

o sung wu
The question should be whether a belief is false, not whether it's comforting.

Good afternoon to you JARDINE K JARDINE...

You're not by chance related to the late great Douglas Jardine by chance ?

To your question, '...whether that belief is false or just comforting...' ? How do you know the belief is false ? Myself, I haven't got a clue ? Does it matter if it's false anyway, as long as it provides comfort ?

A child nervous of the dark, give 'em their favourite 'Teddy Bear' for comfort, they drop off to sleep, secure in the knowledge, their Teddy will protect them. A false belief to be sure, but does it matter ?

A person with a terminal illness, acquires great comfort from their belief in God ? Is that such a bad thing ? Or should it now be mandated, that an enlightened academic appraise them of the total absence of evidence supporting the existence of a God. And in so doing, destroy all hope of any sort of existence after their death !

You see JARDINE, my biggest beef with people like JON J herein, was the malicious and sustained invective he directed at those working within the Catholic Church ?

I'm first to say they need a 'brush' to go right through them and their kind. I totally welcome the Royal Commission into their conduct and activities. To examine the many terrible crimes they've both condoned and concealed. Further, there's evidence available attesting to the fact that the Church has even engaged in absolving many of the perpetrators who've committed these heinous crimes against our young. So bring on this Royal Commission I say, no matter the economic cost !

But, by the same token, not all of those within the Church are bad, far from it. There are many ordinary Priests, Ministers and Pastors who are both selfless, and good. Who vainly try, to do their very best for those people within their individual Churches.

I've not got a problem with anyone criticizing or denigrating the beliefs of Catholics, or Christians per so. It's all just an opinion anyway ?