Re-uniting Israel and Palestine would be a good idea - but what would you call it: Palerael or Isestine?

Everyone will notice that the Singer never talks about Israel returning to the 1967 borders or the 'Right of Return' of the Palestinians or the payment of compensation to dispossessed Palestinians or the creation of a completely sovereign Palestinian State with its own military.

Then he never, but never mentions the occupation and blockade either, or the constant humiliation of the Palestinians people, or the fact that family after family is being thrown from their homes so the Israelis can demolish them and build new settlements, or the keeping of taxes belonging to the Palestinians, or the deliberate impoverishment of the Palestinians, or the gradual annexing of Jerusalem, etc, etc.

But the Singer is keen to talk about any possibility that the Palestinians would be absorbed by some other nation leaving the Israeli Jews with complete control over what used to be Palestine.

The Singer uses every artifice in the Machiavellian book to promote the racist Jewish State and to diminish or trivialize or neutralize the long-suffering Palestinians.

His never-ending flood of duplicitous, pro-Israeli propaganda is nauseating!

Absolutely agree with David G. Negotiating with the racists the disposition of the Bantustans will never be a goer - it's a surrender process, not a peace process. The only solution is RETURN and DEMOCRACY.

*RETURN of the exiles to their homeland
*RETURN of the foreign settlers to theirs
*DEMOCRACY - a secular, non-racist democratic state from the Mediterranean to the Jordan border for those who belong there by birth or by proven DIRECT descent from identified individuals born there.

The two state solution was always a non-starter, an attempt to perpetuate what was grabbed in an initial act of colonisation, enlarged by constant wars of attrition and ethnic cleansing and fuelled by a propaganda machine feeding a guilt industry the likes of which the world has never seen.
But slowly the world community is belling the Zionist cat.
There is only one state in what is now a divided Palestine. Call it Israel, call it Palestine, it matters not. Sooner or later there will be that one state stretching from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River with a full right of return for those who once lived there (including their descendants), and a government of one person/one vote letting the seats fall where they may.
Anything else, or anything less, is contrary to natural justice and will eventually be exposed as such.
Jordan is a legislated myth. It will revert to being part of Syria, or of Saudi Arabia.

Another excellent post. As Jordan's population is currently approx 80% 'Palistinian', it would seem sensible to unite all of the Palistinian people in one state.

Whilst discussing the 'right of return' and/or compensation, despite UN definition of a 'refugee' being only recognised as those originally dispossessed, I am sure that that those discussions will also includes all Jews dispossessed from their homes in Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, Egypt etc. etc. etc?

Of course any person, whether Jewish or not, having been dispossessed of a home in Jordan, Lebanon, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia, Egypt etc. etc. etc as mentioned by Prompete should have a right of return.
It is worth noting, however, that it is one thing to be dispossessed, and another to emigrate.

There is nothing quite so boring as a persistent, loudmouthed, bigotted fool.

Back to the article...

There was always a reunification option, although not on terms which would suit the current Israel. I'm not talking about reunification of Russian, American and European jews in a "homeland" cleared of its former inhabitants, but of reunification of Palestine on its former borders, with proper and equal democratic government and protections for the life and liberties of all inhabitants, not just those who believe themselves to be superior.

Contrary to what David Singer writes, any effective solutions to Israel's problems must concurrently be solutions to those problems which have arisen from the unilateral and continuing partitioning of Palestine and the forced impoverishment and continual exercise of terror and military superiority against those who have been exiled from their own lands.

All readers can sympathise with those who are caught up in a situation which is becoming messier and messier with each passing year, the creation of Israel by Western powers post-World War Two. It was doomed from the start by the desire of the newcomers to establish a form of apartheid which discriminated against christians and moslems and those of no faith at all.

If David wishes, he could buy a T-shirt and support Ex-US President Jimmy Carter's organisation for about 20 quid from here: http://www.freedomnotfashion.com/products/peace-not-apartheid-t-shirt

Peace not Apartheid, it says. NB: Not Peace With Apartheid.

Dear Julian,

<<*DEMOCRACY - a secular, non-racist democratic state from the Mediterranean to the Jordan border for those who belong there by birth or by proven DIRECT descent from identified individuals born there.>>

Two thoughts:

1) How would you feel if your grandparents, who arrived in Australia as children and done nothing wrong in their life, are to be expelled from their homes and nursing homes back to England (oh, and how would the British elderly feel about sharing their nursing and medical facilities with this wave of Australian elderly refugees)?

2) How many Arabs/Palestinians do you know who would be [sincerely] willing to live in a secular state? Even if they exist, how could they possibly oppose their fanatic Islamic brethren who do not?

You seem to view the world as a chess-board, moving the pieces around according to your high theoretical ideals with no consideration to the actual pawns.

Dear Yutusyu,

My apologies for just dipping a toe in but I couldn't resist.

How do you think all those permanent British ex-pats felt when Britain honoured a 99 year old lease and handed back Hong Kong to the Chinese?

Israel is notably younger than the colony Hong Kong was.

Israel is in many ways just such a colonial enterprise.

Dear Csteele,

Nobody, especially no elderly person, was forced to leave Hong Kong because the 99 years expired.

Israel may be a colonial enterprise, but it doesn't mean that each and every person living there is a colonialist, so my reply was in response to EmperorJulian who suggested to throw every person who wasn't born there, who once immigrated to israel, back to the country they came from (perhaps even 50 years earlier, perhaps a place they only knew as babies).

To halduell

“It is worth noting, however, that it is one thing to be dispossessed, and another to emigrate.”

Thank you

One million Jews approximately were forcibly evicted from the countries where they had lived for centuries. Leaving property, businesses and possessions, in many cases being forced to sign them over to the State

The Arab population of Palestine, most of whom had been in the country no more than 20 to 40 years, were urged to leave by their leaders with the promise of return when “The Zionist entity had been annihilated” there is plenty of proof of that

On the other hand Jewish leaders urged the Arabs to remain in Palestine and become citizens of Israel. The Assembly of Palestine Jewry issued this appeal on October 2, 1947:

"We will do everything in our power to maintain peace, and establish a cooperation gainful to both [Jews and Arabs]. It is now, here and now, from Jerusalem itself, that a call must go out to the Arab nations to join forces with Jewry and the destined Jewish State and work shoulder to shoulder for our common good, for the peace and progress of sovereign equals."

On November 30, the day after the UN partition vote, the Jewish Agency announced:

“The main theme behind the spontaneous celebrations we are witnessing today is our community's desire to seek peace and its determination to achieve fruitful cooperation with the Arabs....“

Israel's Proclamation of Independence, issued May 14, 1948, also invited the Palestinians to remain in their homes and become equal citizens in the new state:

"In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions....We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all."

To #Candide:

My name for your inane suggestion - Neverland

Have you any opinion on the proposal to reunite the Arab parts of the West Bank with Jordan to restore the status quo that had existed between 1950-1967 until Jordan lost the West Bank to Israel in the Six Day War?

Have you any opinion on the proposal to restore Jordanian citizenship and Jordanian passports for Arab residents of the West Bank as existed from 1950-1988?

Are you interested in exacerbating the Jewish-Arab conflict or trying to resolve it?

To # David G

Thanks for the oxygen. Knew I could rely on you to not keep your word.

Until you understand that:

1. There are no 1967 borders - only armistice lines

2. Security Council Resolution 242 is the only binding United Nations Resolution dealing with resolving the conflict

3. Resolution 242 does not require Israel to withdraw from all the territory it won from Jordan in the 1967 Six Day War

- then any further discussion with you and those others who use OLO to air their unrestrained Jew-hatred is out of the question.

If you care to disagree with any of the above statements - please feel free to do so. If you don't then I will take your silence to mean your consent and agreement.

Not wanting my silence to be taken as consent and agreement, I would like to point out that while I often take exception to what David Singer writes, I am not a hater of Jews.
To state, as David seems to, that those who disagree with his posts hate Jews is another, and a particularly good, example of his unreasonable arguments. It is also offensive, and, perhaps, illegal.
Nor do I want to see him stop making his unreasonable arguments. On the contrary, I find them to be continually fascinating as a study in blind-side and blinkered thinking.
I would also like to take this opportunity to repeat my dislike, my fear if you like, of Zionism. And in that I feel I am in good company, not least from within world Jewry itself.

The strongest feeling that the Singer creates in me is pity! Sure, I get angered sometimes by his cunning duplicity, his refusal to accept that there are two or more sides to every issue.

Singer is like the Israeli bulldozer driver who ran down and crushed Rachael Corrie: he just ignores any criticisms and keeps ramming his religious delusions and demands down everyone's throats.

You may wonder why he does it. Well, he is religiously deranged and he thinks that, one day, he is going to get a big reward for it from the Big Boppa in the Sky no matter how many Palestinians he is directly or indirectly responsible for killing.

I understand the extent of his delusion well. You see, once, during my impressionable youth, I too was filled with religious fervour! I walked around with a small Bible in my pocket and preached the word when I could. I spent many hour talking to myself while I believed I was talking to some God.

Time passed and gradually I began to question the claims made by clerics who couldn't explain to me why the Loving God they talked about created babies with birth defects, etc. To cut a long story short, my intellect asserted dominance over my tendency to embrace silly superstition.

So don't be too hard on the Singer. He just never grew up. His mind is clogged with all manner of racist, elitist, fraudulent foolishness. He rejects reality preferring instead to, like a child, cling to myths and ridiculous, unsubstantiated theo-babble. As I said, pity is mainly what I feel for him.

But I admit to feeling anger for what his misguided, cruel people are doing to the innocent Palestinians!

David G, your post has to be one of the most racist/antisemitic ones I have seen on a reasonable web site in a long while. The AHRC would have strong opinions about it.

There are no such people as Palestinians. It was coined as a propaganda tool and came into being on June 4th 1967.It is based on lies and violence, with NO intention for peaceful co-existence with Israel.

There is no Palestinian culture, language, nor cuisine. There has never been a land called "Palestine" ruled by "Palestinians."

There has never been a Palestinian President, Prime Minister, Government or military. This idea of there being a Palestine is a recent false one.

The so-called Palestinian cause has been used as a diversionary tactic for a long time, since the 1960s, to call attention away from the abuse of their own people.

The so-called Palestinians have been used and abused by their leaders and other Muslim/Arab lands, kept in poverty with little work, and no education - aside from teaching hatred of the Jews as the scapegoat for their problems. The hatred of Jews and Israel isn't the cause of their misery.

Ever asked why the so-called Palestinians in Gaza still live in refugee camps?

Did the Israelis force Palestinians to stay in the squalid, overcrowded camps?

So-Palestinians still live in refugee camps, even when the camps are in Palestinian Authority controlled areas, because the PLO opposes and prevents refugee resettlement. As the PLO slogan goes, “A Palestinian refugee never moves out of his camp except to return home, that is to Israel.”

While the PLO has done its best to keep Palestinians in refugee camps, Israel has done its best to move Palestinians out of the camps and into new homes. Israel has a heavily subsidised “build-your-own-home” programme for Palestinian refugees

"...Israel has done its best to move Palestinians out of the camps and into new homes." says SF.

Clearly he is even more deranged than the Singer!

Yes I feel very sorry for the Palestinian Arabs.

They're being used by their own people. They're not wanted by them. In Lebanon they have no rights and can only work at the most menial degrading jobs. The same in Jordan.

The 'Palestinians' have caused their own plight, they keep rejecting their own state and Israel's existence.. A united angerand hatred keeps the Arabs and Muslims under control.They cant see what is happening and who's truly for it. They're so brainwashed they can't see the truth. Until they can open their eyes

THEY REFUSED peace in 1937 when the British Government, which ruled Palestine, proposed to divide the land into separate Arab and Jewish states.

THEY REFUSED peace in 1947 and chose war rather than accept the UN’s Palestine partition between its Jewish and Arab populations.

THEY REFUSED peace in 1967 when Israel offered to relinquish the land it had acquired in exchange for peace with its neighbours, the Arab world’s response, issued at a summit in Khartoum, was not one NO, but three:

“No peace with Israel, no negotiations with Israel, no recognition of Israel.’’

THEY REFUSED peace in 2000 at Camp David when offered a sovereign state with shared control of Jerusalem and billions of dollars in compensation for refugees.

Yasser Arafat refused the offer, and returned to launch the deadly terror war known as the Second Intifada.

THEY REFUSED peace in 2008 when Ehud Olmert offered Mahmoud Abbas a peace agreement a Palestinian state in virtually all the West Bank, Gaza, and part of Jerusalem. Once again, the Palestinians turned down the offer.

First and foremost if anyone really wants peace with Israel, they MUST recognise Israel's existence with Jerusalem as its Capital.

As recently as early December Khaled Meshal said in a defiant speech

He "vowed to use military force to build an Islamic Palestinian state on all the land of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip."

You tell me who doesn't want peace

"...Israel has done its best to move Palestinians out of the camps and into new homes."

Clearly he is even more deranged than the Singer!”

You are pure scum. Don’t judge me by your standards. Unlike you I don’t “make them up as I go along”

“The vacated homes in the refugee camps were taken down with the goal of eventually creating enough open space so that the camps themselves could be rebuilt as further new neighborhoods for the refugees.
It’s not surprising that the PLO vehemently opposed this program – after all, former residents of a refugee camp, now living in a nice home in a new neighborhood, would have a stake in supporting peace and opposing violence, exactly the opposite of the PLO’s strategy.
What is perhaps surprising is that the United Nations also opposed the program, and passed harsh resolutions demanding that Israel remove the Palestinians from their new homes and return them to the squalid camps.

For example, UN General Assembly Resolution 31/15 of Nov. 23, 1976:
Calls once more upon Israel:
(a) To take effective steps immediately for the return of the refugees concerned to the camps from which they were removed in the Gaza Strip and to provide adequate shelters for their accommodation;
(b) To desist from further removal of refuges and destruction of their shelters.

Similarly, UNGA Resolution 34/52 of November 23, 1979 declared that:
measures to resettle Palestinian refugees in the Gaza Strip away from their homes and property from which they were displaced constitute a violation of their inalienable right to return;
Calls once more upon Israel to desist from removal and resettlement of Palestinian refugees in the Gaza Strip and from destruction of their shelters;

Perhaps thanks to this support from the UN, the PLO began threatening to kill any refugee who would move out of the camps. After a few such attacks, the build-your-own-home program died, and that is why there are still Palestinians refugee camps in Gaza.”

Do I hear sorry?

Sorry?

Yes, I'm sorry that the world appears to be full of folk like SF and the Singer. These folk, and billions of others like them, are born with the sick idea that, or are taught to believe that: 'Might is Right', that compassion is a weakness, that caring is for suckers, that sharing is for the weak, that if someone or some nation has things you want, then, if your armies are big enough, just invade, occupy, and take them! They are primitives who are anachronisms. However, they still infest the world!

Such people are the blight of the Earth. They are the reason that peace will never grace our Earth, that it will go from catastrophe to catastrophe until, in a nuclear holocaust, humans become extinct. After all, believing that 'Might is Right' among nuclear-armed nations can only have one outcome!

Can the Singer or SF change? Not very likely. They are type-cast. They will kill anyone who gets in their road, destroy any nation that stands up to them, get rid of anyone who dares to challenge them or even call on them to use their limited intellect or conscience!

For them: Thinking = 0. Superstition = 10.

I am truly sorry that such creatures will bring about the end of our world.

David. G.
I'm quite disappointed in not being included in your rant. Don't I get a guernsey? I was also recommended for execution by prof. Richard Parncutt for being a climate change sceptic as well! :))

Whilst I totally agree with your stand on Climate Change, I can't agree with anything else you say.

I would also take a good stab at saying that SF has hit the nail squarely on the head. You are proven wrong, very wrong

"The man[lady] doth protest too much, methinks."

There are more than 5 million refugees at present. However, the number of Palestinians alive who were personally displaced during Israel’s War of Independence is estimated to be around 30,000.

This curious disparity is explained by UNRWA decisions in 1965 and 1982 that extended the definition of “refugees” to include the children and grandchildren of displaced Palestinians.

What other group of refugees is accorded this extended definition? Western democratic countries eventually integrate refugees into their societies. I ask myself why, after three generations, Arab countries with Palistinian refugees are unable or unwilling to accord them that which western democracies take as a given. I cynically ask myself, what's in it for them?

Just days after the UN disregarded UNSC242 and Oslo II (which call for negotiations and forbids either party from taking unilateral action - the reason there were no new Jewish developments in Judea/Samaria since 1993), abu Mazen threatened to dissolve the PA, thus ending the charade. The state that never was for a people who never were has gone down the gurgler. The idea of a confederation with a kingdom on the verge of collapse or radicalisation or a takeover by Hamas in ridiculous. Does Abdullah really want more Arabs hostile to his alien regime? And can abu Mazen talk for that part of his state (that figment of his imagination) that is controlled by Hamas? Its all power challenging so typical of the Arab world. Its a non-starter because no Israeli government will hand over startegic passes and heights to unstable, hostile regimes; the Israeli public has learned the lessons of Lebanon and Gaza. Forget about peace; Israel stays put and the local Arabs can manage as best they can until they join the 21st century and give up antisemitism, their baseless notions of superiority, special status like being perperual refugees or a right to "return" to another people's country and learn to govern themselves. All of these grandiose schemes of Jordan taking over or a confederation hinge on the false premise that Israel has been removed from the scene by international pressure. The longer the local Arabs refuse to accept demiliterised self-government in Judea and Samaria or of emigrating, the longer their self-imposed misery will last. If they enjoy it so much while their leaders live in EU and UN funded luxury, their Western supporters should just butt out.

That is a very curious argument, Prompete. It prompts me to ask how many Jews were personally displaced during the Roman wars two centuries ago, and since they have all since passed on, why has a right of return been granted to their great (repeat many times) grandchildren?
And yet you would deny the same right of return to Palestinians who can at least claim a degree of living memory since their displacement.
Definitely not a case of sauce for the goose and sauce for the gander, is it?

It is about time OLO posted some articles by Norman Finkelstein or Naom Chomsky to balance these articles by David Singer.

The solution is a single country with no religious political head and equal rights for the Palistinians but Israel won't let it happen.

Dear Arjay,

<<It is about time OLO posted some articles by Norman Finkelstein or Naom Chomsky to balance these articles by David Singer.>>

Yes, nothing can hurt Israel's image more than David Singer, so this will help changing the wrong impression as if all Israelis are cannibals!

<<The solution is a single country with no religious political head and equal rights for the Palistinians but Israel won't let it happen.>>

Do Israelis deserve equal rights there as well, or was it a deliberate omission?

Now I understand that this solution will produce the best outcome for you, but what if only a handful of Israelis and a handful of Palestinians accept such a solution? Is it right to force that solution of yours on both, just because it is the desired outcome for some Leftist Westerners who do not even live in that region? Would that not be a case of fighting colonialism with colonialism?

Yuyutsu,equal rights for both Israelis and the Palistinians. I cannot see it happening soon.

Israels and Israeli Arabs are equal in Israel.They always have been since 1948

Dear SF,

<<Israels and Israeli Arabs are equal in Israel>>
(I presume you meant "equal before the law", because in general terms no two people are equal).

Well, not so:

Israeli Arabs are highly more privileged because they do not have to be conscripted. They can still go to the army if they want, but otherwise they are free to have a life, whereas the only way for a healthy Jewish Israeli reaching the age of 18 to avoid the army is to maim themselves or spend their best years in jail.

For those so-called pro-Palestinian supporters here, I suggest they read the following two articles from which I have drawn significant passages.

Jordan Is Palestinian by Mudar Zahran
http://www.meforum.org/3121/jordan-is-palestinian

Mudar Zahran is a Jordanian-Palestinian writer who resides in the United Kingdom as a political refugee. He served as an economic specialist and assistant to the policy coordinator at the U.S. Embassy in Amman before moving to the U.K. In 2010.)

“The U.S. State Department estimates that Palestinians make up "more than half" of Jordanians. ("Jordan: Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, 2001," Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, U.S. Department of State, Mar. 4, 2002.)

A 2007 report, written in cooperation with several Jordanian government bodies, the London-based Oxford Business Group stated that at least two thirds of Jordan's population were of Palestinian origin. (The Report: Emerging Jordan 2007," Oxford Business Group, London, Apr. 2007.)

Palestinians make up the majority of the population of Jordan's two largest cities, Amman and Zarqa.”

and

Arab Spring and the Israeli enemy
Abdulateef Al-Mulhim (
Abdulateef Al-Mulhim is commodore (Retd.), Royal Saudi Navy.)
Saturday 6 October 2012
http://www.arabnews.com/arab-spring-and-israeli-enemy

“Finally, if many of the Arab states are in such disarray, then what happened to the Arabs’ sworn enemy (Israel)? Israel now has the most advanced research facilities, top universities and advanced infrastructure.

Many Arabs don’t know that the life expectancy of the Palestinians living in Israel is far longer than many Arab states and they enjoy far better political and social freedom than many of their Arab brothers.

Even the Palestinians living under Israeli occupation in the West Bank and Gaza Strip enjoy more political and social rights than some places in the Arab World. Wasn’t one of the judges who sent a former Israeli president to jail is an Israeli-Palestinian?

The Arab Spring showed the world that the Palestinians are happier and in better situation than their Arab brothers who fought to liberate them from the Israelis. Now, it is time to stop the hatred and wars and start to create better living conditions for the future Arab generations.”

I understand how easy it is to overlook anyone commenting on three basic issues of fact that I put to you.

So here they are again for your comment:

1. There are no 1967 borders - only armistice lines

2. Security Council Resolution 242 is the only binding United Nations Resolution dealing with resolving the conflict

3. Resolution 242 does not require Israel to withdraw from all the territory it won from Jordan in the 1967 Six Day War

Is anyone prepared to disagree with these three statements and give his reasons why?

Please no more bile.

You demean yourselves.

No argument from me David

Resolution 242 is the foundation for “a just and lasting peace.”

It calls for a negotiated solution based on “secure and recognised boundaries,” and it recognises the flaws in Israel’s previous temporary borders by not calling upon Israel to withdraw from ‘all occupied territories,’ but rather “from territories occupied.”

Resolution 242 acknowledges the need for Arab states to recognise Israel’s right to exist and to end their anti-Israeli aggressively hostile nature.

It recognises Israel’s right to live in peace “with secure and recognised boundaries free from threats or acts of force.”

<<1. There are no 1967 borders - only armistice lines>

<<Is anyone prepared to disagree with these three statements and give his reasons why?>>

Pictures speak louder than words - I saw these:
http://www.tog.co.il/Data/News/news360R.jpg
hundreds of these, with mine own eyes all around the perimeter of pre-1967 Jerusalem, not a single "Stop armistice line ahead".

To #SF

Thank you for your acknowledgement and confirmation.

To #Yuyutsu

You need to read the Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement April 3, 1949 and also the 1994 Israel-Jordan Peace Treaty.

These words count far more than photos

<<These words count far more than photos>>

This is not just a photo - these are real metal signs I've seen with my own eyes.

The significance of those signs is that Israel accepted the armistice line as its border. That acceptance may perhaps have occurred somewhat after the signing of the armistice treaty, but eventually it did.

As Israel was happy with this border then, there is no valid reason why it shouldn't be content with it now!

<<3. Resolution 242 does not require Israel to withdraw from all the territory it won from Jordan in the 1967 Six Day War>>

True, but the only sense in which Israel 'won' this territory is in the sense one 'wins' a venereal disease. Indeed, why should the world care about Israel's health if it doesn't care for its own?

To #Yuyutsu

Use your brain - not your eyes.

The wording in the Armistice Agreement and Peace Treaty is clear.

Resolution 242 recognizes that Israel is entitled to live in "within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force."

The Armistice lines were not boundaries - but merely lines at which the opposing forces were stationed when a cease fire was agreed to end the hostilities in 1948.