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The Forum > Article Comments > 42 a poor alternative to Jesus > Comments

42 a poor alternative to Jesus : Comments

By Mark Christensen, published 24/4/2012

Atheism is busy framing the answers, but it doesn't understand what the question is.

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George,

Einstein might not use the terminology of Dawkins, but then he was also aware that discussions of physics often involved positions no less emphatically held.

If someone had approached Einstein and daily berated him for not being a flat-earther or some other physical nonsense, I am not certain of the extent of his patience.

Dawkins takes pains in his prefaces to distinguish thoughtful, honestly-held religious positions about what we do not know, from those who (not unlike tobacco companies) tout the same uncertainty as *endorsement* of a singular and usually self-serving fundamentalist/young-earth-creationist view.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Sunday, 29 April 2012 7:00:55 PM
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Poirot,

It depends what exactly you mean by this...

<<If you're saying that, had Einstein lived in our times, he would have used wording more akin to that of Dawkins, then I think you're underestimating Einstein.>>

If by "akin to that of Dawkins" you mean that term I abhor "new atheist", then yes, absolutely. As I've said before, there is not a doubt in my mind that had Einstein lived in our more knowledgable and enlightened times, he would be what so many dub a "new atheist". But that's just my opinion, so it's not a point I care to staunchly defend. 

You would also need to clarify what you mean by "akin to that of Dawkins" though. I have not yet met a detractor of his who understands where he is fundamentally coming from. 

<<[Einstein] strikes me as a man who understood very well the implications for meaning of the words he used.>>

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein

Doesn't sound like someone who always understood the implications of the words he used (i.e. "God" in that case). Einstein was exceedingly smart, yes, but he was still human and we all make mistakes. 

You also ignore the all important 'context' of the times that I mentioned.

Rusty,

Very well said.

It's all about context and it's just not good enough to simply conclude that, "oh we'll, that's what he said... too late now", as George had effectively done.

The context of the times is everything.
Posted by AJ Philips, Sunday, 29 April 2012 8:15:36 PM
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The following argument ensued after a few beers at the bar:

1. Jesus was a tall and well-built Nordic blonde - just like me!
2. No, Jesus was a black, agile negro-featured - just like me!
3. Wrong, Jesus was Middle-Eastern, rough and brown-skinned - just like me!
4. Forget it, Jesus was a Jew, small and hunch-backed - just like me!
...

The way you quarter and serve Einstein here reminds me of that argument.

Being a "deeply religious nonbeliever" is valid, consistent and not surprising: belief in the existence of God is only one religious technique among many - like any other technique, it is suitable for some and not for others, so the fact that Einstein did not use it does not detract from his religiosity. I have no doubt that Einstein was deeply religious - just like me!

...
(for those curious about the end of the above argument, the three other men confronted the Jew and said: "Prove it!", to which he replied, "No problem, come with me" and took them to the brothel, there he knocked on the door and when it was opened the lady exclaimed: "Jesus, are you here again!?")
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 29 April 2012 8:37:15 PM
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Putting words into Einstein's mouth, AJ? Very Courageous.
Rather like the courage needed by Theists, when they put their words into their God's mouth.
Einstein on Atheism:
 "The fanatical atheists," Einstein said in correspondence, "are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses'—cannot hear the music of the spheres."
Although he did not believe in a personal God, he indicated that he would never seek to combat such belief because "such a belief seems to me preferable to the lack of any transcendental outlook."
I think many of the greatest scientists are awe struck, or more appropriately, awe inspired by the intricate majesty of 'Creation'.
This does not automatically make them theists or atheists; merely people capable of appreciating something greater than themselves; struck at the same time by how peculiarly explicable (through mathematics) the universe appears to be, while at the same time tantalisingly unknowable.
Science may have progressed since Einstein's day, but I really don't think the theist/atheist argument has come up with anything earth shatteringly new lately; certainly nothing which would overcome Einstein's “childlike awe”.
Carl Sagan was another, more recent great communicator who shared Einstein's sense of wonder, and described himself as an atheist -with certain reservations. Neither gentleman, I think, would object strenuously to being described as sharing a 'religious fervour' for the wonders of the natural universe.
While neither Dawkins, Sagan or Einstein required a personal, interfering God, the church of Dawkins' universe is a drab, boxlike affair, with perfectly utilitarian stackable chairs.
The church of Einstein's and Sagan's universe has no shortage of stained glass windows and majestic architecture.
Posted by Grim, Sunday, 29 April 2012 9:18:57 PM
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Grim,

I would suggest that the "god" that all established "churches" portray is a drab, box like affair, resembling the "churches" themselves.

Dawkins objects to these because they, most especially "fundamentalist" churches that promote "young earth creationism" are barriers to the clear understanding of basic concepts that enable the vision of Einsteins and Sagans.

Dawkins has written at length about the intricacies of the world as understood by several avenues of science, and shown how drab, banal and depressingly futile any literal reading of religious texts and "fundamentalist" religion is in comparison.

Rusty.
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Sunday, 29 April 2012 9:44:25 PM
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Grim,

"...the church of Dawkins' universe is a drab, boxlike affair, with perfectly utilitarian stackable chairs.
The church of Einstein's and Sagan's universe has no shortage of stained glass windows and majestic architecture."

Beautifully put - great post.
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 29 April 2012 9:49:20 PM
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