JP said:

"• Atheists have opinions/beliefs/preferences about what is morally right and wrong
• Not all atheists agree with each other as to what is right and wrong
• There is no known arbiter who can definitively state which atheist, if any, is right and which atheist is wrong when there is a disagreement about moral issues

Therefore atheists are unable to state, beyond expressing their own personal opinion/belief/ preference, what is right and wrong.

This was too good to resist.

• Christians have opinions/beliefs/preferences about what is morally right and wrong
• Not all Christians agree with each other as to what is right and wrong
• There is no known arbiter who can definitively state which Christian denomination, if any, is right and which is wrong when there is a disagreement about moral issues

Therefore Christians are unable to state, beyond expressing their own personal opinion/belief/ preference, what is right and wrong.

All of which is why we have laws - the best we can do to attempt to ensure stable peaceful societies, subject to change in light of new EVIDENCE about the best way to run a society. Not a 2,000 year old concoction from pre-scientific superstitious types.

Back atcha... For god's sake, let us assume that theism is true and that every human being is a sincere theist. Now consider the following:

• Theists have opinions/beliefs/preferences about what is morally right and wrong
• Not all theists agree with each other as to what is right and wrong
• There is no known arbitration which can definitively state which theist, if any, is right and which theist is wrong when there is a disagreement about moral issues.

Now if you disagree with my conclusions, could you please tell me which of the premises is wrong, or why the conclusions do not follow from the premises.

Titfer, stickman... congrats to the faster typist.

Great minds, WMTrevor ;) Probably better articulated as theists rather than picking on Christianity.

quote..""Therefore atheists are unable to state,
beyond expressing their own personal opinion/belief/preference,
of what they judge is right and wrong.

This was too good to resist.

stickyman/quote.."•There is no known arbiter
who can definitively state which Christian denomination,..if any,
is right..and which is wrong..when there is a disagreement about moral issues""

no the moral issues are wrote in stone
no god before god..[not even a son]
not murder..not adultetrate gods laws

its all pretty clear[morally speaking]
as jesus himself egsampled...at the stoning
[simply by noting the murder law in the dirt]

sticky/re-quote..""Therefore Christians are unable to state,
beyond expressing their own personal opinion/belief/ preference,
what is right and wrong..."""

i can give you chapter and verse
in a book you might even have ...'in your home'

but mate..its in writing
not a youtube edit..or in spoken wurd
in writing..[witnessed..plus a chain of claim]

stibnky/quote..""All of which is why we have laws""

IN WRITING...writing opriests invented
that led to schools/liberies..science maths..geomitry architecture poetry..form and substance

""the best..*we can do""

which we [athiest xtian jew...which which is this 'we'
decendent off the royal wee..that STATES the best we can DO*[physical that leads to it being dun]

""to attempt to ensure stable peaceful societies,""

societies are stable
its individuals within EVERY society
[even yours]..that seek to divide and deride..[others societies]

""subject to change
in light of new EVIDENCE..about the best way to run a society.""

benevolent dictatorships
till the people divide into scocieties..communes...with owning rights

""Not a 2,000 year old concoction""
lol that has evolved OVER 2000 years

""from pre-scientific superstitious types.""

visionaries..envisioning the unseen..
who founded science..to better know their god..[via his creation]

3 athiests types..i know of
you like most...take it on faith...right?

JP and OUG, how do you define the route of information from God to the Bible (Or it's the tablets I think for OUG - Seen Raiders of the Lost Ark BTW?), to the mind of the believer?

These morals need a medium. Now I'm guessing OUG has a direct line to god, which I can kind of respect more, than the Chinese whispers of the ancient book of unknown author(s) interpreted by a priest, further interpreted by the believer. Or maybe straight from Bible to believer.

Anyway, have you ever played chineese whispers? It's great fun. Not sure of my point, but the whole God and Devil (Not mentioned enough, needs a better PR company) Heaven and Hell and such I could relate to if it is all part of the psyche. I see similar concepts in my internal reality.

I mean how much of the Bible is useful as metaphors, and how easy an out is that!, when the reader decides this bit's an Aesop fable and that bits literal, and I'm sure I often see people get a whole different idea of what's going on in Mullholland Drive than I do.

Maybe David Lynch is God, or maybe it's me. I suppose MD has lesbian sex scenes so David has the upper hand.

Anyway, what is your position? I assume it's singular as you are both believers. How accurate is Chinese whispers over so many years, in a different dialect, and how do you account for comprehension of the written word, linguistics, translation, or the human interpretation of voices coming into the head, and how sure are you that the devil isn't trickier than you thought.

ie what if it's the devil's work to constrict and conflict with moral dilemmas, and it's god that would be really cruisy and up for free thought and gong with the flow of natural individual human empathy and intelligence?

Crack me up WmTrevor!