Well, guess what, Saltpetre.

>>What I AM saying is that it is NOT correct to contend that a mild slap (Not a beating!) is never justified and is always abusive.<<

Nor am I.

Nor am I saying this...

>>So now you're going to say that Islamic militants and al-Qaeda were all beaten as kids? Slapped = violent; unslapped = sheep? Footie players and boxers - must have been slapped, hey?<<

Precisely the opposite, in fact, as I have already rejected any causal link at all, either way.

What I do object to is the line of argument that says "we used to beat our kids, now those do-gooder PC fanatics tell us its wrong, and as a result the world has gone to hell in a handbasket."

I am also saying that a parental slap is an admission of defeat, an acceptance that communication has failed. But I also understand that some parents find it more difficult to communicate with their children than others.

And, just for good measure, I disagree that we need specific legislation. Because it was two days ago, I'll take the opportunity to repeat myself.

"The article however concerns itself primarily with the legal basis for inflicting such punishment on children. The idea that the line between "smacking" and child abuse can be determined by legislation, and that a position either side of that line will in future be argued by lawyers, smells to me like special pleading on the part of those who will earn money from the task.

The article does not, possibly for these reasons, cover existing legislation, but I suspect that our current assault laws are perfectly adequate to detect the abuse of children. Can anyone point to situations where they are lacking?"

Have a great day.

Oh, by the way snake...

>>Pericles Are you always so pedantic and patronising?<<

Absolutely.

AJ - I'll put it another way:

My children were "parented". We were not their 'friends', we were the adults in charge who were responsible for their needs and ensuring they were fit members of society. Our children had expectations of us and we of them. They knew there would be unpleasant consequences for bad behaviour just as there would be praise and further encouragement for good.

As for going behind our backs - we had a nice little strategy. As the children matured, wrong-doing was often handled with a discussion about what had happened and appropriate penalty or compensation would be agreed on. However it was made clear that if they'd done stupid things outside our knowledge, they should confess to us quickly. Hearing it from their lips, we would be merciful. If we heard it from another party, leniency was out the window. As adolescents they were given a good deal of personal freedom on the understanding we trusted them, but betrayal would see that privilege curtailed. A long rope I called it - that could be shortened. Since it's very hard to lose something one enjoys and is proud of, they were all pretty careful and we enjoyed relatively calm weather through the stormy hormone charged years.

Our adult children love and respect us. I loved and respected my parents even though I recieved considerably more corporal punishment than my kids. It was much more the 'style' then. The important thing was fairness, I'd done wrong and was being pulled into line. My parents were loving and caring and I always felt loved and secure. Occasionally sulky but probably less than one of my offspring missing an outing. Given the choice they might have opted for a hiding instead.

AJ - what disturbs me is by your tone you don't seem to think children should be in any way punished for wrong doing. That there shouldn't be any unpleasant consequences for unpleasant behaviour? I hope I've got the wrong idea because unless your children are very very unusual indeed, there is trouble ahead for you and them.

I'd like if I may expand this concept of applying adult notions of ethics and rights and responsibilites to children.

When people give children stuffed toys, encouraging them to love them or use them for comfort, I believe this has sexual connotations and amounts to the encouragement of Plushophilia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plushophilia

Just annoyed that I was outdone by r0bert.

OK it's now time for a vote. Closing arguments are in and voting will now start on who was a better parent.

All those in favour of divine_msn raise your right hand.

All those in favour of AJ rais your left hand.

OK I'll be back in a while with the final vote. The loser will be publicaly stoned, and DOCs will be around by 2PM that day.

After which we will put in black and white laws on how people should parent, and anyone who diverges from this will be metted out the same treatment. There is nothing more righteous than a public stoning of people who refuse to conform to worlds best practice on raising their kids.

Any small deviation from the world's best practice will inevitably result in the raising of a homicidal axe wielding maniac. Each and every variation from world's best practice parenting on every child is life altering, and their psyche is so fragile that the smallest error by any parent should be punishable by death. No child can possibly recover form a deviation from this approved practice.

Because it is difficult to keyboard a comment whilst voting in this way, Houllebecq, could it be amended to simply raising the right or left hand middle finger? Or in the case of an abstention, both?

Houellebecq sorry to not have shared.
I missed one of the best though if we want to conflate adult concepts with childrens rights. (apparently that's only Ok when it's convenient and can be dismissed when it does not suit).

A system enforced by the government where millions of people are required to work with no pay for 6 or more hours every week day for much of the year (including unpaid over time most days).

Where they are required to pay for uniforms, have impositions on how their hair can look, piercings etc. Where they pay for most of the stationary they use in their work and some of the tools required. Where they may be required to subsidise the cost of work related travel.

Where they are often subjected to bullying and other behaviours that if as endemic in any other workplace would have the employer in serious trouble.

It's slavery on a grand scale.

R0bert