Killarney,
Say what you will. The fact is that those who were mollycoddled are now the problem We have to deal with, Not their parents.

Pericles,

So, do you think those protesters in Homs (or in Egypt, Bahrain, Burma, Sudan, etc) were never smacked as kids? (Or, ALL of them were?) Do you consider them violent deviants? Or, people with the strength, conviction and moral courage to stand up for their rights and those of their children and families? (Maybe those in Foshan were never slapped as kids? What say you?)

I'm not making a causal relationship between no-slapping and societal dysfunction - nor can the reverse be confidently asserted (though beatings, abuse, and parental dysfunction or disinterest may be).

What I AM saying is that it is NOT correct to contend that a mild slap (Not a beating!) is never justified and is always abusive. And, I am NOT saying that people have to be brought up rough in order to have moral courage; but I am saying that people should not be afraid to do what is right, even if it means placing oneself in jeopardy (if the cause is sufficient). Am I justifying war? NO! Violence? NO! Courage and determination to do what is right? YES.

A slap does not make a criminal, any more than a lack of a slap makes a saint. And, which is more damaging - a smack or a verbal tirade? The answer is in the circumstance and the manner.

So, are we still confusing a slap with a beating? Any beating, and especially an unprovoked, alcohol or drug fuelled helluva beating? What say you reveal the nature of those beatings sustained by all those criminal incarcerants, and the source, frequency, circumstances and intensity of those beatings? Are we comparing apples with oranges, or are you just trying to make a questionnable argument that all smacking can only lead to criminal and perpetual violence?

So now you're going to say that Islamic militants and al-Qaeda were all beaten as kids? Slapped = violent; unslapped = sheep? Footie players and boxers - must have been slapped, hey?

Strange how a racial slur is a greater offence in footie than excessive violence? Balance?

Dear AJ Phillips, you must have an truly amazing memory and even more fantastic reasoning and analytical skills as a very young child.

Most of we nasty "Child Beaters" use the "Smack" tool on our very young children, from about walking age, because that's the stage where the child becomes all mobility and no sense of self preservation. Yes - none and precious little other sense other than of self and want. 'REASONING' beyond, "I see, I want" or "I'm hungry/thirsty/lonely/uncomfortable. Where's Mum?" just doesn't happen. It's at this stage conditioning gets ramped up big time as we start teaching our children the basic concepts of what is RIGHT and WRONG including danger, speech, manners, social interaction etc. This is a very gradual process involving much repetition achieved through a carrot / stick process. Pain and fright are useful tools and one the child will learn by his/herself as time goes by but as responsible parents we wish to temper that process.

So, for example, rather than letting little Nigel scald himself grabbing Mums hot coffee, she may pull him back saying "No, musn't touch. Hot" but when he grabs for it again, smack his hand saying NO! Child gets a fright, maybe the smack stings but he gets the message and doesn't try again - until next time she's having a cuppa and he's on her lap. It is a gradual repetitive process! Did I say repetitive ... Nigel doesn't understand the concept of "the hot liquid will burn you and it will hurt a lot" but quickly understands his parents serious intent when his hand is slapped and is deterred.

By the time Nigel gets to where he starts to operate at more complex levels - usually around age 3, you have a child who's been conditioned to some level of obedience and compliance who now has developmental capacity to understand reasoning - of a simple nature at first. Once again it's a gradual evolving process and still a stage where a good smack, or threat of, is likely to be useful.

Continued next post ...

From previous ...

Nigel reaches school age. He's been trained by caring concientious parents through loving encouragement and firm discipline, is well socialised, recognises boundaries exist and is ready for formal learning. He is developing nicely and is able to think in considerably more complex terms than 2 years ago. He still has a long way to go but now his parents rarely smack as there are other more powerful tools at their disposal like withdrawal of possessions or privileges. If he continues to be so lucky, his parents will apply fair consistant discipline throughout his childhood that by the time the dreaded hormones kick in, he at least has had an excellent grounding, knowing right from wrong, having respect for self and others and understanding that actions - good or bad have consequences for which one will be accountable.

Now to all those who claim to remember the 'trauma' and the way they 'reasoned' as a result of mild early childhood corporal punishment - I cry "BOVINE EXCRETEMENT" and the adjective "delusional" comes strongly to mind.

If there are readers who were genuine victims of REAL abuse - punching, kicking, protracted beatings, being hit around the head and so on - you have my utmost sympathy. If that was the case you almost certainly suffered until either removed from the abuser/s or old enough to remove yourself.

However the DIFFERENCE is like chalk and cheese and the links non-existant.

"indicates to me that you've got a few control issues hiding in the cupboard." Killarney that little comment says a lot more about the sort of person you are than the sort of person I am.

R0bert

Individual (and divine_msn),

From my observations, it’s not a lack of corporal punishment that’s the problem, but lazy parenting.

From what I’ve observed, the children that are smacked that are more likely to be the troublesome ones, not necessarily because they’re smacked - the smacking is often just a symptom of the lazy parenting that has resulted in unruly children - but because they’re unruliness has brought the parents to the brink and they feel they have nothing left other than to administer frequent wallopings.

<<Well, that's you. Most of us didn't think that at all.>>

Or maybe many have just forgotten? The thought of you being right here is just plain depressing and I would prefer to remain a little more optimistic about people in general.

<<No-one, including you at such a young age has the mentality or wisdom to rationalise the way you try & tell us.>>

Of course, at the time, children don’t always think the thoughts I conveyed with the words I used. But they can still experience gut feelings (telling them something’s not right) that they can later reflect upon when they’re older and realise what exactly was wrong.

<<Look at the society around you now. It's made up of a majority of people who didn't get smacked.>>

From my observations, this is not the case at all. Smacking is still rampant. My wife and I are the only parents in our families and circle of friends who don’t.

<<Do you really think we're such a great society now ?>>

No, but it’s much better than it used to be.

Only a few decades ago, we lived in very ignorant and intolerant times where people of other races and sexualities were discriminated against. Heck, Western countries were even at war with each other with one of them being run by a madman - something unimaginable nowadays.

<<Do you really think many of the crap heads in high positions now are the people we really want to run the show ?>>

No, and I don’t think they ever were.

Continued...