Bravo David f.
I have always been amazed that insanity can be used as a defence in a murder trial. How can killing another human being ever be described as 'sane'? Equally it bothers me the continuing argument over capital punishment, even in this country. How can people suggest that the state has no right to murder, when the state does it all the time? We hear with great sadness about one of our children dying “for their country” overseas; why is it we rarely hear of how many they killed? And on those occasions when we do, it's (apparently) a cause for celebration, not mourning.
I mourn not only for the victim, but also for the perpetrator. I know (and have known many more) returned soldiers, and all without exception regard themselves as permanently scarred by their experiences.
I am not a pacifist. I have always been prepared to fight to defend and protect my family, but I will never throw the first punch. Invading another country is an act of aggression, and selectively invading countries not on the basis of the evil of the regime, but on the country's mineral wealth is an obscenity.
Might I also point out that the 'left-right' division is superficial and simplistic? There are libertarians on both sides, i.e. Ron Paul is on the 'other side' from me, yet I agree with far more of his contentions than I disagree. He is for instance the only presidential candidate who is not in favour of US imperialism -as well as the Gold Standard and personal liberty.

Davidf quoting Eagleton:
"The truth is that Marx was no more responsible for the monstrous oppression of the communist world than Jesus was responsible for the Inquisition."
This is absolutely true; I think the practitioners of murder and oppression deserve the credit for their crimes and not their twisted version of a humanist philosophy.
I've already registered my thoughts on your silly anti-Marx thread: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12693#219273
Marx is no more responsible for Stalin's atrocities than he is for the recently deceased mad dog leader of North Korea, who is being disingenuously mourned as a virtual deity. This can hardly be said to have been inspired by Marx, who was a materialist and had no truck with deities whatsoever, minor or major.
As for the Manifesto; you've only read it through a jaundiced eye and read your villainy "into" it. I had intended to write a defence of it in response, and would still like to when I have the time--though nothing I could say would defeat your prejudice, or anyone else's, I should think.

But to clarify, I was comparing Eagleton to Orwell as a prose stylist; whatever you think of the subject matter, he's a brilliantly witty writer, on par with Orwell and superior to Hitchens imo.
Eagleton does defend Marx, but he also defends Jesus, a radical by any other name (indeed he's {Eagleton} a lapsed Catholic still influenced by theology). But first and foremost, like Orwell, Eagleton's a literary critic and his essays are masterful.
Have a nice day, David.

aj/quote..""There’s nothing within atheism
to support what they were famous for doing.""

included for con-text

""Unlike all the slaughter in the name of God"...!

please give some facts[proofs]
full text..not just one line...taken out of context

""which is actually endorsed by holy scriptures and in writing.""

what qwritings
what scriptures egasactly
[if thats not gouing off topic]

maybe as their own topic
one for each 'text'...

is there one saying god is pleased with murder
or one that says ye shalt NOT murder?

if its endorsed...show which ones
and i will show you ten to say you got that context wrong

god has grace mercy/love light..good
anything not all good..isnt giving back to god!

the good god who created materialistic 'life'
a place..where even the least..can be beast
till the evolve spiritually

if the text is to guide us
to the higher things of spirit...[and to the eventual good
its things like love god by loving neighbour...not some line of text]

look at the big picture
but lets hear the line texts
and pluck the weeds ADULTERATED..into how we read 'the text'

like..if its not all good..for all
its not a good offering..for good[god]
only good..is perfect

but only one reaches the high measure
god..not son..not priest...ONLY ONE IS ALL GOOD
all loving loving all living...all giving all charity

basing the plight of our soul
upon anmy words of man...well thats a slippery slope
filter the words..if its nmot about getting nearer to good [god]

then its nothing
if its not good..its not really..a things that helps
but gives us..a lower starting pioint..that allows us to climb higher

knowing that step
is closer to the good
than the last step was

one under god wrote:

""Unlike all the slaughter in the name of God"...!

please give some facts[proofs]
full text..not just one line...taken out of context

""which is actually endorsed by holy scriptures and in writing.""

Anglican Bishop John Shelby Spong has recognised the evil promoted by holy scripture and would like other Christians to recognise and deal with it. The Bible was written by humans who incorporated the prejudices in it. There is no context in which one can put the following quotes which will mitigate their evil. From his website:
http://johnshelbyspong.com/sample-essays/the-terrible-texts/

RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY:

“No one comes to the Father but by me” (John 14:6)

This text has helped to create a world where adherents of one religion feel compelled to kill adherents of another. A veritable renaissance of religious terror now confronts us and is making against us the claims we have long made against religious traditions different from our own.

ANTI-SEMITISM:

And the people answered, ‘His blood be on us and on our children’” (Matt. 27:25)

No other verse of Holy Scripture has been responsible for so much violence and so much bloodshed. People convinced that these words conferred legitimacy and even holiness on their hostility have killed millions of Jewish people over history. Far more than Christians today seem to understand, to call the Bible “Word of God” in any sense is to legitimize this hatred reflected in its pages.

SEXISM:

For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.” (1Cor. 8-9)

The message of the Christian church was once that women are evil to their core and it was built on the story of Eve. She was taken out of man and was not his equal, but his helpmeet. Evil entered human history through the weakness of the woman. She was made to bear the blame and the guilt. She was the source of death.

He also blames the Bible for inspiring homophobia, corporal punishment and environmental degradation. Go the url cited for details. Literal believers in the Bible have caused great human suffering.

Poirot - thank you for picking up on the essential meaning of my post.

I'll leave others to argue the bleeding obvious, that no single person is completely 'right' about everything. The important thing is that we acknowledge our flaws - not easy, certainly haven't perfected it, but do keep trying. Whereas others believe their power can be used to silence others, ignoring that people may remain silent but that does not imply acquiescence.

Non religious people need the Hitchens, the Dawkins, the AC Graylings, even the Father Bobs and Shelby Spongs and other public stirrers - not because everything they say is right or even true or justified but because to never question authority is to remain apathetic and simply bullied.

The greatly flawed and brilliant Hitchens was never the fodder for bullies.

david/quote..""RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY:

“No one comes to the Father
but by me”..(John 14:6)"""

replied here
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=4898&page=0
[*post limitations*]..!

""A veritable renaissance of religious terror""

oh please....[its allways darkest before the dawn]
not till we see a better way can we go there

""ANTI-SEMITISM:

And the people answered,
‘His blood be on us..and on our children’”..(Matt. 27:25)""

this story begins with judas...!
read that in context...it was THE PEOPLE...not the judge
not god..not fate not karma...it was a mob

an unamed lot of pepole
WHERE ARE the semite/JEWS..named
zionists arnt sematic jews...any blood can only be on those 'doing the deed...lol..sheep following orders[neuremberg refuted that excuse]

""No other verse..so much bloodshed.""'

yes we the people certainly got the guilt
but hey lets be specific..WHERE ARE SEMITES NAMED?

""Far more than Christians today..seem to understand,"""lol

""to call the Bible “Word of God”..in any sense
is to legitimize..this""[semetic..your word]..""hatred reflected in its pages.""

mate..the jew..isnt the 'only people'

""SEXISM:

For man..was not made from woman,..but woman..from man.
Neither was man created..for woman,..but woman..*for man.”..(1Cor. 8-9)""..

read the laws of levie
a father can forgive his daughter...[foolishness]
husband forgive wife...brother forgive sister...etc etc

eve is FORE-given
in many ways...[forgivable]..by adam..her brother[they are clones]
by adam her husband...adam her father...etc etc

besides...eve wasnt told
[gen 3;1...'the serphant did ask eve..:did god really say''...[to you]
or did your insestious brother/father/hush-band...say it to you]

adam told her
[its a control issue...thats why woman
wernt allowed to read the book...!

heck the scam guilt trip would be over overnight

oh david...i read the law/book..to learn the law
you got nuthin..in a court-case..only here-say

anyhow post limits....lol
[and all that]......

more later