Mahatma Duck,

Just about every unlawful act that has been legislated against here in Qld. has people who continue to practise such unlawful behaviour. I'm thinking of sexual abuse, domestic violence, theft, murder, etc.

Legislation does not stop all of such actions, but it sure sends the message that sexual abuse, domestic violence, theft and murder are wrong and will not be tolerated in this society.

If I am to use your analogy across the board ("Prostitution is extant in every human society"), Mahatma, I would give up on life because sexual abuse, domestic violence, theft and murder are extant in every human society.

I reject your obnoxious suggestion that prostitution is "hard to distinguish from marriage, admittedly." As a family counsellor, I see some of the gory things associated with some marriages, but marriage, for most people, is nothing like prostitution. Are you suggesting that people sell themselves for sex in their own marriage?

Sincerely,

Come on, OzSpend, that's a classically disingenuous argument. "Sexual abuse, domestic violence, theft and murder" all involve infrigements against unwilling victims, while a sexual act transacted between two consenting adults, paid for or otherwise, does not. The most degrading thing I can see about prostitution, for both sex workers and their clientele, is when this transaction is made illegal.

It is also disingenuous for Shelton to cloak his Christian wowser agenda behind a contrived concern for a safe working environment for sex workers, when his real agenda is to have prostitution re-criminalised because it offends his morals. He has also campaigned to try and have Toowoomba's adult shops closed down for the same reason. Many of us find it very offensive when religious zealots seek to impose their morality on the rest of us, particularly when they do so dishonestly.

You've also quoted me out of context about the structural parallels between marriage and prostitution "in some places". Many anthropological studies have established that a major function of marriage in some societies is the exchange of wealth and women between groups of men, with the resultant legitimisation of sexual access to women being in some ways equivalent to prostitution.

In terms of our own society, the familiar stereotype of the "gold-digger" carries some of this meaning, as does the exchange of gifts between lovers and marriage partners.

I cannot believe the prejudice of some of the responses in here!

It's eerily along the lines of "He's a stupid Jew, what we he know?". Instead however, the Christian religion is being attacked here. I'm continuing to read comments which say his article is irrelevant because of his affliation with Christianity.

Yes its true, the Christian religion does influence people's values and attitudes. But so does everything else! Maybe Lyle has a friend down at the golf club whos daughter has looked into prostitution. Maybe he lives near a red light district. Who knows? The point is that 1000's of things influence who we are and what we believe, so why should he have to list them all? It's almost like we want him to wear his own Star of David, except we'll make it a Crucifix. We should make it a law. Then when a religious guy makes any opinion, we can just rag him. Such discrimination.

Let's open our minds and look at Lyles reasoning for his views. It's not like he's saying "God damns prostitutes to hell". They are completely rational and founded!

Although I am *not* religious (sorry guys you cannot write MY comment off as some religious crap), I have a relative who is a Christian. They have well thought-out views on this area, and rather than just being full of opinions, they sacrificed their career to starting an organisation which keeps young kids off the streets and gives them opportunities.

So before we sit on our soapbox and rag these people, how about we have a genuine look at what they are saying and give them some time of the day. The reality is for all the bad we point out, our country owes alot to the Christian religion.

Justin

Mahatma Duck,

It's impossible to have a logical discussion with you when you describe Shelton's article as a cloak for "his Christian wowser agenda." Here you are off and running with the use of a genetic logical fallacy.

When you want to write off Shelton's views because he is a Christian, it is parallel to not believing our model for the benzene molecule because its founder based it on a dream of a snake biting its tail. It's a genetic fallacy, as is yours when you deal this way with Shelton's views. I don't know Mr. Shelton, but I do know that when you engage in the use of logical fallacies, logical discussion is over.

Prostitution is degrading whether it is legal or illegal. Others and I have provided the evidence on this forum, but you don’t seem to be in a mind to consider what it does to the prostitute.

Mahatma, you are hypocritical in what you expect of Mr. Shelton when he writes an article. I notice that you don't tell us clearly at the beginning of each of your posts any of the following:
+ Your worldview;
+ Your epistemology;
+ Your view on metaphysics;
+ Your understanding of logic;
+ Your religious convictions, whether they be atheist, agnostic, theist, pantheist, panentheist, wicca, satanist, secularist, humanist, etc.

Why not?

Sincerely,

Ozspen, those that are prepared to write articles, should be prepared to state their positions and why they feel that way, religiously or otherwise. Why should those that make comments on subjects have to divulge their viewpoints on other aspects of life. I know the religious normally do, because they lack substance in any other approach and must resort to futility in expression.

Prostitutes have free choice, those that are imported as sex slaves don't, but they do it for the money, in this country they can walk out. Most don't because they know they are here illegally and don't want to be sent back.

Prostitution is only wrong when it encroaches into others lives. It may be immoral, but that is a religious standpoint. Lyle has merit in what he says, but he does disguise his true colours from those that don't know of him. So it is reasonable for others to out him. Then all are aware of his true affiliations and reasoning, write it, cop it.

Prostitution doesn't seem to be degrading for those involved, it certainly isn't degrading for the handicapped that have been able to sexually express for the first time in their lives. Just the opposite, it brings them joy and a feeling of being part of the human race.

Most relate to the poor women involved, but what about the large number of male prostitutes. They face the same problems.

Until an approach can be found that puts prostitution into a manageable situation and negatives controlled, we will continue to have a high incidence of criminal activity surrounding it.

Prohibition isn't an answer, but controlled legalisation has worked in other industries, so maybe a different form of control should be implemented for prostitution. Those that step outside, should cop it big time, worker, customer or boss. Take away all they own, that will stop them, as money is the main goal for all involved.

OzSpin,

I'm not trying to have a "logical discussion" with you or anybody else - indeed, I've noticed that a classic tactic of disingenuous religious zealots is to try and turn debates into word games utilising the limited conceptual apparatus available to them. Perhaps that's why you're being obtuse and disingenuous in your own arguments?

Quite simply, it goes like this: Lyle Shelton, a well-known Christian activist in Toowoomba, writes a shoddy article in which he disingenuously claims to be advocating for safer working consitions for sex workers, when in fact his agenda is to re-criminalise prostitution itself because it offends his morality. In his accompanying self-description, he somehow forgets to mention his Christian activism, in favour of AFL and jogging. When others quite correctly out him in his dishonesty, other Christians claim that we're only disagreeing with his facile argument because he's Christian.

Wrong. What we object to are the dishonest tactics deployed by religious fanatics who wish to see their values imposed on the rest of society. I have no problems with Christians, Muslims or Scientologists who wish to model our society on the writings of the apostles, Mohammed, or L. Ron Hubbard, and wish to argue honestly on that basis. However, it's when they attempt to impose their views on the rest of us through insidious and disingenuous means that they need to be outed.

To return to the topic, I imagine that working as a prostitute can be degrading, as indeed could flipping burgers at McDonald's. However, in the former case a large proportion of that degradation is attributable to precisely the kinds of shame and alienation that are promoted by prohibition and moral finger-wagging by religious zealots masquerading as counsellors and advocates. Re-criminalising prostitution could only make it even more degrading for sex workers.

Lastly, alchemist is quite correct when s/he points out that it is incumbent upon article contributors to state their affiliations honestly. I would have thought that the inclinations and beliefs of commentators on those articles should be inferred from our comments.