"A former rural journalist, Lyle Shelton is serving his second term as a Councillor on the Toowoomba City Council. He is a father of four young children and his interests include Australian Football, jogging, reading and public affairs."

Lyle also seems to forget his ongoing pastoral role with Toowoomba City Church. His objectivity would of course be skewed somewhat by charismatic evangelical christian background and views.

One trusts that he omitted to mention his religious affiliation in haste to inform readers of his AFL and jogging interests.

Lyle's account of condom use could well be accurate. I have read of estimates that if a woman has sex with many different partners over a 12mth period, she will have about a 30% chance of contacting an STD, even though she uses condoms.

However there would be a likelihood that prostitution will increase in future years. People are getting married at older ages, or not getting married at all. Cohabitation or de facto relationships are normally short lived, and if a male does not have much money, many women do not want to know about him. If he forms a relationship with a woman, she can decide to end the relationship for whatever reasons she chooses, and then claim most of his assets in a property settlement, leaving him broke.

So what will that male do?

CYNICAL about "cynical"... err.. you wouldn't happen to have a vested interest in the selling of female bodies for sex and $$$ would you ?

The ISSUE about the article is this: factual....or NOT !

Your cynicism has the 'ring' of vested interest dripping from every syllable.
What the heck does his Pastoral interest have to do with the factual or otherwise content of the article ? !

Have the Brits concluded as stated in the article ?
Have the Swedes changed the law for the same reasons ?
etc
etc.

He has referred to specific studies, LOOK at them ! and then judge.
Its been the same in Victoria, as was predicted by many astute observers, that legalizing does NOT stop the illegal practice, and his comments about other forms of illegal behavior absolutely apply.

TIM
a woman cannot obtain 'all his property' as easily as you suggest. The courts have to take into account length of time together, and how much each contributed to the marraige 'booty'.
My sis in law was married to a well heeled man and after it was clear that he was a violent psycho she left and after living together for about 3 yrs, she got $15,000 thats it. He had a nice home, which belonged to him b4 marraige.. she can't touch it mate. (no kids involved)

Cynical of Toowoomba may do well to reveal his background and views before embarking on their atheistic - holier than thou tirade. Lyle Shelton’s article is thoughtful and reasoned whatever its motivations.

For reference sake my background is Catholic; however I have encountered people for some of whom the sex industry is empowering for others disempowering and as such reserve judgement. Given that none of the people posting is likely a women currently in the sex industry, whatever is said is going to be a bit paternalistic.

One of the interesting by-products of brothel legislation in QLD is that two independent sex workers can not legally share a premise and by so doing give each other a margin of safety.

The real people who need to be heard in this debate are those currently in the sex industry and not those (either in or out of the industry) cynically making money from doing the talk circuit promoting views either for or against.

Cynical of Toowoomba,

Ever heard of the 'genetic fallacy'?

That's when someone dismisses your argument or statement not based on what that statement contains, but rather in terms of somthing you dont like about the person making the statements. This is very poor thinking and hopefully most people will see through it. Who cares if Mr Shelton is a member of Church? Would you have the same objection against a Muslim Imam, or a Buhddist monk? Or what if an Atheist presented the same points? Do you dispute any of the evidence presented in his article? If so then lets hear it.

Dear Critics,

1. No income from any sex industry comes into my household or my pocket. I'm open to offers from any potential donors, but the opinion and integrity are not for sale.

2. A person's background *does* skew their view. Cr Shelton was quick to mention AFL and jogging, but in the profile for the piece, omitted his church links. Considering his high degree of activity in the church regarding his opinions on matter of sexuality, I thought that he did not present an objective picture of his background, and that a more accurate picture of the author required this knowledge.

3. BOAZ David, "factual" is very polarising. Spin is involved. Knowledge of the direction from which an author comes, will help readers discern how facts are presented.

4. Zephyrus just blew in, from where? PKB.

5. Director123, *I* care. If Shelton was a prostitute, a policeman, a john or a fetishist, it would colour his presentation; what he revealed, emphasized, neglected....

Thanks Lyle for this article. I am a young woman and I know for certain that women work in prostitution because they have few other employment options.

I recently did some research on HIV/AIDS and prostitution and came across a frightening fact which I would like to share with readers.

A recent Cochrane database review concludes that condom use can reduce one's risk of HIV by up to 80% (when used consistently). This is not a great statistic considering the nature of the disease.

But when I looked at the studies on which this figure was based, NONE of them included studies of sex workers. All these studies specifically exclude sex workers because it is too hard to determine the personal exposure of an individual sex worker.

Just two other research findings (among many which suggest that prostitution can never be made completely safe for women):

Increased condom use had no effect on rates of gonorrhoea, chlamydia, and genital herpes in London prostitutes (Sex Transm Infections 75:340-343, 1999).

Increased condom use was significantly associated with an increase in genital/anal warts among prostitutes in Sydney (Genitourin Med 67:384-8, 1991).

There is no definitive evidence that condoms can prevent STDs of any type, including HIV. They can certainly reduce the risk of HIV infection; estimates range from 69-85%. But these estimates are based on data which specifically excludes studies of prostitutes. Sex workers have an extremely high frequency of sexual contact, and the risk of disease is influenced by multiple factors. The promotion of ‘safe sex’ practices, mostly involving provision and enforcement of condom use, is complicated and cannot guarantee a safe work environment for commercial sex workers.

Thank you Lyle for standing up for what is right. Clearly the degradation of sexual integrity in our society has clear and measurable negative effects. Any thinking person cannot deny that the negative impact that prostitution has. If you want statistics they are easy to find and impossible to deny. Do your homework.

And to "cynical of toowoomba" who posted the first response you should know that I have never been a pastor of any church!

Cynical,

I think you are about half right – it is good for people to identify who they are and their particular world view. And now that you have informed us that Lyle is a christian we can see where he is coming from and clearly he has allowed his christian faith to deeply impact his views on prostitution. Lyle was remiss in not identifying his church connexion and now you have filled in important detail. Thank you. I note however, that you have declined the request to identify your own biases, leaving us to guess what they might be…….

I note that your posts to this topic are your first. Welcome. You will note I use my own name and further as I have indicated on other threads I have identified myself as a minister of a church, a Presbyterian one for the record.

I want to assure you that Christians are active on Online Opinion – we are quite happy to hold our end up and you will just need to learn to debate with us – we are not going away – so get on with it and tell us, what’s your beef with Lyle’s article?

Thank you Lyle for an interesting but sobering article

Sure, it matters that Lyle excluded his connection with the Christian church but there's still plenty to read and comment on from his article without getting tied up in knots over his pastoral responsibilities.

So other than Lyle's religious affiliation, why is everyone focusing exclusively on the medical/physical side of prostitution? Sure, it's important - but how about the emotional impact prostitution has on the women involved? And how about the moral impact it has on society?

"Cynical" shows an attitude I see a lot of in America, too: "Someone
with faith in God has a slanted view, but I as a secular humanist am
perfectly objective, above the religious fray." Secular humanists
with this attitude are like a man who claims to be a fair judge in
a beauty contest--concealing the fact that his own niece is one of
the contestants and he plans to vote for her automatically.

Secular humanists are no more impartial than anyone else; they have
their own horse in the race every bit as much as a Christian or a
Muslim has. Materialistic philosophy is itself one of the belief
systems in the competition; and if Mr. Shelton is to be disqualified
from this discussion because he holds to a particular belief system,
then "Cynical" equally deserves to be disqualified for exactly the
same reason.

Thanks for your article Lyle.

You have to wonder what supporters of prostitution are thinking. If brothel owners had the interests of the workers at heart they would not be brothel owners, full stop. So how could they ever be expected to supply more than lip service to any form of care for workers?

As soon as any politician or group seeks to legalise or encourage prostitution we must sceptically ask, what’s in it for them. The lack of open and full information about the social and personal damages reinforce this concern. Since there is no social good from the practice of prostitution why would anyone, including the Crime and Misconduct Commission, consider extending legalization unless they had something to gain?

Any politician who supports legalizing prostitution in any way is crossing their own name off the ballot form as far as I’m concerned.

Oh, and about Mr. Shelton not initially announcing his affiliation:
if he _had_ announced it immediately, he would be just as likely to
have secularists denounce him for that, saying he was "shoving it
down our throats."

About the usefulness of condoms: they do NOTHING to stop chlamydia
(which makes women permanently sterile) or the human papilloma virus
(which can kill). Still less do condoms halt the spread of a sense
of sexual entitlement, which will never quit increasing its demands
if it is indulged.

Cynical,

Dont miss the point here dude. Sure it is 'possible' that a persons beliefs can inform their views. The question however is "Have they invalidated the facts presented in the article or haven't they?"

So, if you can, please try to address the subject matter and not the messenger. :-)

Cheers

In response to Cynical, I would like to point out that I do not have pastoral responsibilities at Toowoomba City Church. Five years ago, I worked for the church as a youth pastor. I currently work part time for the church on some non-pastoral projects, principally editing a bi-monthly newsletter. Occasionally I preach but am not paid for this. Many churches use lay preachers from time to time. I am not ashamed to be identified as a Christian, many Australians are also Christians. However, my interest in the issue of prostitution is not for religious but rather reasons of social harm. I don't think the Swedes or the British were principally motivated by religion, they just looked at the evidence. In the case of the Swedes, they have come up with an alternative policy position that seems to be working. I'm not obliged to identify my religious beliefs every time I participate in a public debate. - Lyle Shelton (nickname Scoop)

A former sex worker has stated that 3 or 4 good quality condoms in a packet of 24 break. 3 out of 24 represents 12 1/2% or 1 in 8. If 12% of parachutes failed, who would be a skydiver? Prostitutes are playing Russian Roulette with their bodies, and also killing their self respect. Men who have to pay for sex must also have problems of self worth. There are no winners except the pimps, whether they are on the street or in the Office.

Dear Lyle, Thanks for standing up for the truth.
Without truth there is no freedom and there is no justice.
Here's something that helps me decide against prostitution and similar issues like pornography.
Only recently Australia has seen very clearly the destructive nature of pornography and its toll on Australian families. You may remember the Melbourne businessman that met a stripper on a pornographic website and formed a relationship with this woman. This man had a wife and children. As you may be aware, the truth came out to show that the woman from the porn site conspired with the family man to kill the wife. The wife was found in a coma in the boot of a car and the porn site woman was charged. The wife died and the husband was then found to be involved in the crime and then committed suicide.
What are we left with?
Children who’s father killed their mum and then killed himself!
DESTRUCTION! The same spirit moves in Prostitution.
Would you want your daughter working in the sex trade?
Dear readers, let's not let Australian society self destruct in this community destroying practice.
Parent.

Timkins - are you suggesting that women need to lower their standards so that men don't feel they have to resort to prostitutes?

Otherwise, what is your point?

I'd also like to here more than one person claiming a breakage rate of 3 in 24 condoms. It suggests that perhaps she is not usuing them correctly, rather than that they aren't effective. This 'fact' strikes me as another instance of misinformation from the abstinence-only lobby.

Don't our daughters deserve to be told the truth about condoms too? There are plenty of reasons not to choose prostitution as a career without resorting to falsehoods.

Great article Lyle!

Identity: Catholic male of three score plus, with five lovely daughters making their way in the world.

My primary concern for girls in prostitution is abuse. Where there is no love in the sexual exchange there is no respect. This is evidence by the significant number who succumb to drugs and alcohol.

The only winners in the prostitution industry are the moguls who are only interested in ‘meat on the table’ and a pocket full of money.

The Queensland experience is following closely that of Victoria where legalization was supposed to make the industry ‘clean’ but has produced a surge in brothels. And the same ‘wiseheads’ are claiming we need more relaxation in other areas.

From bitter experience the Sweeds have come up with a practical solution. Make prostitution an offence and fine the males for using the girls.

Keep up the good work Lyle. When the world has gone to the extreme and can no longer get any ‘kicks’ it may find some interesting ideas in Christianity – especially treating others the way we want to be treated.

Pat. H.

Scoop,
I think that tightening up on prostitution laws in some European countries has not really solved the problems, but simply transferred the problems elsewhere. Some countries such as Denmark have a high trade in prostitution, and people from other countries simply go there, if prostitution is not available in their country.

In the UK, marriage rates are at their lowest levels in 200 yrs, but they are now finding that rates of bachelorhood and spinsterhood are at there highest levels in 60 yrs. Many men and women are simply not getting married or even forming de facto relationships. They are living alone, (and this trend is also increasing in Australia), and I know that many men in the UK, (and possibly women) simply cross the channel to go with prostitutes if they want sex.

Going to a prostitute is high risk, but for men in particular, forming a relationship with a woman is also high risk, and this is mainly related to family law systems.

So prostitution would be just one aspect of a whole set of other social problems that are occurring.

Also disagree with Ruby that women go into prostitution because of unemployment. Many studies have shown that the majority of prostitutes in countries such as ours are involved in prostitution for money. They can get employment, but it doesn’t pay as much.

Sister churches to where I attend have special equipt vans by mature womens teams for support to troubled street girls. The girls love and respect them and look foward to a hot chocolate and a chat; and express they want to get out of prostitution but their drug habbits control them. So I suggest that pastoral care in a Christian Church has its exciting rewards when a girl is finally free of her addiction and is able to find a dignified and wholesome life outside of both addictions.

Congratulations Lyle on a brave piece of journalism, exposing what happens in the prostitution industry.

I am a long-term youth and family counsellor (28 years' experience), who has established two counselling centres and I have been the supervisor of other counsellors over the years. Some of these counsellors and I have seen the devastation on individuals and families that has happened when children (and especially youth) have discovered that their mothers are hookers.

These youth have felt betrayed and have manifested severe acting-out behaviour to rebel against this blight on the family’s and their mother’s reputation. How do you help a 12-year-old who is going berserk in the household over his mother's prostitution?

Sex workers have come to me, wanting help to get out of what they describe as a “demeaning and violent” profession that eats into their souls. They have found it difficult to leave the industry, not only because of the financial rewards, but because of the power of sex. The psychological damage done to these women is something that politicians would need to see to fully appreciate what this profession does to people.

This Qld. Government needs to send a strong message to the Qld. community: we do not want to continue to advocate a profession that debilitates individuals, families and society. The fact that this government has liberalised the laws on prostitution is further evidence of a culture on the skids.

Since Queensland has legalised brothels and prostitution, it has approved of one of the most severe ways of degrading women.

When the Canberra Brothels had an open day in November 1992 (I was living in Canberra at the time), the Canberra Times published a photograph of a brothel “mistress” showing visitors some of the sex aids in the brothel, that included “whips and chains” [“Woman with the whips talks shop with Canberra’s curious,” The Canberra Times, 29 November, 1992, p. 2]

I commend the work of Linda Watson, an ex-prostitute and ex-madam, who is helping women come out of prostitution in her "House of Hope" in Perth.

A couple of simple points:

* Prostitution isn't called the 'world's oldest profession' for nothing - prohibition wouldn't stop it, but put it back under the control of criminals instead

* 3 out of 24 condoms breaking? Now I'm no great stud, but over the years I've used more condoms than... 24 anyway, and none of them have ever broken. Maybe that prostitute needs to invest in some lube as well?

The following facts and figures provide statistics that are just as alarming in the twenty-first century as they were in the late 1980s on condom effectiveness. The Westside Pregnancy Resource Center, USA has some statistical information on condom breakages -- I picked up these stats in 2002 (see: http://www.wprc.org/11.19.0.0.1.0.phtml ) Please understand that these are USA figures. Would it be different Down Under?

In preventing pregnancy, condoms have a standardized failure rate of 15.7 percent over the course of a year. [Jones & Forrest, 1989, p.103.]

For persons under the age of 18 who have used condoms for at least a year, condoms were found to fail 18.4 percent of the time. [MD Hayward and J Yogi, "Contraceptive Failure Rate in the US: Estimates from the 1982 National Survey of Family Growth," Family Perspectives, Vol 18, No. 5, Sept/Oct 1986, p. 204.]

Among sexually active teenage girls aged 12 to 18, 30% contracted an STD over a six month period, including condom users. [LM Dinerman et al, Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Med, 149(9):967-72, Sept. 1995.]

For unmarried minorities, the condom failure rate is 36.3 percent, and for unmarried Hispanics, the failure rate is as high as 44.5 percent. [Jones and Forrest, 1989, p. 105.]

Among married couples where one partner was HIV-positive, 17 percent of the uninfected spouses contracted the disease, despite the use of condoms. [Contraceptive Technology, Hatcher et al, 1990, p. 173.] That is a rate greater than one in six. For the uninfected, one would be better off playing Russian Roulette.

Only 7 percent of HIV positive persons voluntarily notify their sexual partners. [New England Journal of Medicine, Jan 9, 1992.]

More recent statistics indicate: "Although condoms will reduce your chance of infection, compared to having sex without any form of protection, one in three AIDS victims will contract the disease from an infected partner despite 100% use of condoms. One study found that among married couples where one partner was HIV-positive, 17% of the uninfected spouses contracted the disease, despite the use of condoms. The best way to prevent AIDS is abstinence."

So Sweden makes it a crime to buy sex from a woman. As a matter of conscience, when has it ever been okay for such a transaction, anytime, anyplace? Australian families are appalled at the continuing rapid moral decline of their surrounding communities. Men are called to provide protection, security, warmth, love, respect and kindness to the womenfolk of this nation. Not abuse and/or degradation. What must mothers, wives and daughters think when their men sink into the appalling self centredness of uncontrollable sexual lust, which acts like acid on self esteem. Let's turn a leaf and give our women and our families the men and the dads we're meant to be! Thanks Lyle for raising the issue.

Soon as I read the article, I had him pegged for a religious crank.
girls 18 years old need to be told about the dangers...what planet
is this guy on? Sure its not a nice thought, its not a nice trade.
Its perfectly healthy and normal for an 18 year old girl to have an interest and knowledge in sex. Same as an 18 year old guy.
whether they are from the wrong side of the tracks or a churchgoer, they have these things called hormones.
Sure you can fill them full of weird ideas and beliefs, but they still have independant thoughts.
If there are girls out there with no knowledge about the dangers,
thats a mental health issue.
drugs are the scourge that cause most of the problem, with money coming a close second. Hecs debt? come on...
sure it can happen, but a chat with a few hookers will generally indicate a different demographic.
Africa has an absolutely massive problem with AIDS, nice work catholic church, JC would be so proud I'm sure.
Condom use may not completely 100% prevent disease, just as a motorbike helmet dosent 100% prevent head injury.
Its a sordid business, but damage control is important.
Similarly, legalising brothels does not result in a safe working environment. It MOST PROBABLY would result in a SAFER working environment. Its a small step.

Thanks Lyle for the honesty and challenge of this article. It is easy to see that many have lined up to attack your faith and therefore try to dismiss outright your excellent arguments and reasoning.

Here is the thing though. Everyone has a bias, or a series of presuppositions through which they view all things. I am a Christian, but also a Personal Development teacher, also a school counsellor, also a husband and also a father.

If I look at the issue of prostitution through any of these lenses, I will still come to the same conclusion, prostitution only destroys people.

I recently took a number of year levels through a unit on STI's (I still refer to them as STD's). My students were amazed at how little they knew about how dangerous having sex could be. The girls in particular were concerned about how a disease, even bacterial not viral, could greatly damage their chances at conception later down the track.

We need more articles like this one to help our precious young people understand how dangerous it is to engage in risky behaviour, and empower them to make careful decisions.

Freeman

It is not a matter of legalising, nor prohibiting prostitution, but how we handle it. Throughout history many attempts to quell the sexual desires of humans have been tried, the situation today shows us how successful they have been.

Education is the best approach, being well informed gives you the ability to make informed decisions. Sexual education should begin young, as awareness grows. It should be placed within society as being normal and not some evil debauched act. If all the implications are taught as youth grows and matures, their understanding will make them stronger. It is when they are told that it is taboo and wrong, that it becomes a problem.

We send out children into the world with very little knowledge of the process, reactions and outcomes of sex, except the basics. How can they be expected to cope without the right knowledge. We always teach our children the minor things of life, like money, materialism and religion, but never fully about the most influential energy we have, sex. Just enough so that they are aware, but not prepared.

The old approaches haven't worked, time to look at other ways, or it will just continue the same and cause more and more damage for everyone involved in the industry and outside it.

All forms of sexual work are not bad or wrong, what about handicapped people, don't all people have the right to fulfill their sexual expression in whatever way they can responsibly. As long as it is not harmful to them or others, who has the right to deny someone giving pleasurable help to a disabled person. Or aren't their rights, feelings and desires as important.

Maybe its time to stop looking at this from our own biased viewpoints and look at it from all aspects. It has to be controlled, because of the negative aspects associated with it.

High risk high reward. I wish I could sell myself to the opposite sex for $100+ an hour, it would sure beat the office gig.

I think the impoverished view of sex workers only holds partial weight. I'm sure there are many young girls with little in the way of education and skills making a significant wage out of the business, tax free often. Some are only getting their gear off and bringing home a few grand a week. They probably feel like tramps but as before high reward comes from high sacrifice.

Yes we have the other end, drug addicted no-hopers for whom prostitution only adds momentum to their downward spirals, though does the legal side of the industry have much bearing on such people? They've always been around and the legitimate places would/should do their best to screen them out.

I say let adults do what they want with their bodies, but if it involves earning money then make sure they do what everyone else is made to do, COUGH UP THE TAX!

To alchemist you must be joking or have your tongue firmly in your cheek! You say we equip our children with the minor things like materialism and religion. Religion minor? And you consider it outdated and not working. It seems to me you have not been equipped at all if you consider religion minor. But you have given highest place to sexual urges - and how dare we deny them! You insult people with physical handicaps by inferring they cannot enjoy sexual relationships. So your solution is send them to a prostitute where they are involved in a dehumanising and demeaning empty act.
Perhaps your "searching for methods of making gold" need to retrace one of the 'minor' things you have left behind.
I am a minister of religion by the way.

Harry C,

You wrote: "Yes we have the other end, drug addicted no-hopers for whom prostitution only adds momentum to their downward spirals, though does the legal side of the industry have much bearing on such people? They've always been around and the legitimate places would/should do their best to screen them out."

That's not my fundamental experience in counselling. It's not primarily "the drug addicted no-hopers" who go into prostitution. Those who become prostitutes often become addicted to illicit drugs afterwards. Why? They have told me that it was their attempt to numb the pain of the lifestyle. Most often drug addiction comes after entering prostitution -- in my counselling experience.

I'm of the view that prostitutes should be warned of the dire consequences of selling their body through such a degradation of women (but we must not forget the men who are also selling their bodies).

Thank you for your article Lyle.

I am not concerned that you have a Christian faith. I am concerned about what you are saying.

Some years ago (early 1980s), when I worked as a drug and alcohol counsellor, I saw four groups of women who were in prostitution. I reckon these same groups are operating today.

There were women who were drug addicted and who prostituted to support their habit. They were sad and remorseful women with no hope.

There were women who had been the victims of child sexual abuse - who turned to drugs and prostitution. They were sad and remorseful women with no hope.

There were unemployed women (such as women with protracted mental illness) who could not see another way. They were sad and remorseful women with no hope.

There were women who did not fit any of the above - housewives and university students who enjoyed sex and wanted more money. It was a simple as that.

The differentiation between an STD and an SDI is rather wierd (I know that is not your stance). An infection can become a disease. A disease cannot become an infection - unless the disease develops a concommitant infection. What a load of yet another politically correct heap of crap.

Cheerio for now
Kay

Cheddar, another empty vessel, filled with delusion, just like your pews. “But you have given highest place to sexual urges”. Really, where did I say that. “You insult people with physical handicaps by inferring they cannot enjoy sexual relationships”. Where did I say that.

Cheddar, just like a lot of your ilk, can't see past your self righteous illusions. If you have worked and not just been condescending with those that have disabilities, either physical or mental, you would understand the difficulty they have in expressing, and also being able to participate in some normal aspects of life without help. Sex is a biological process, not a fault in humans as with religion, sex is a reality.

“You insult people with physical handicaps by inferring they cannot enjoy sexual relationships. “So your solution is send them to a prostitute where they are involved in a dehumanising and demeaning empty act.” “Cannot enjoy sexual relationships”, “that are a dehumanising and demeaning act”. Your doing a good job at being a minister. Make up you mind, if it is enjoyable how can it be demeaning.

So you are the sole judge for them are you, typical of the self centred fearful religious. What is sex for you, the example of the constant number of religious being charged as sexual deviants, I can understand that. For you, sex may be that way, but for real people it is meaningful in many ways. Some that I would not agree with.

The dehumanising and demeaning acts on this earth, presently, come mostly from the ideological religious (blanks).

Religion, minor in fact, of major importance for its destructive reality.

Cheddar.. don't worry too much about "Alchemist" :) its takent this long for the rest of us to get him trained to the point where u can even understand his posts... previously he was just a flowing diatriabe of anti-religion stuff.. sentences not ending, just merging etc.... no paragraphs... Well done Alchemist.. you have passed OLO-101 :)
Now we just have to work on his inner life a bit, (A LOT) and help him through the dark times.

Prostitution in any form is degrading. If it is practiced by those 'independant, businesslike' girls who are just doing it for the love of sex and some extra $$$ for uni, well, the chickens will come home to roost at some time in life for sure.

Lets just hope that when they (and Alchemist) here the 'knock' ... they will open. I think you will know my meaning there.

Welcome also to OLO from me, I haven't seen your posts, but then, it might be like Church "Hi....haven't seen you before, how long have you been coming"?.. reply "err.. 3 yrs" :)

Lyle, aka Scoop writes, "However, my interest in the issue of prostitution is not for religious but rather reasons of social harm."

As one Christian to another Lyle, this is not good enough. I don't buy it nor I suspect do many of our opponents. It looks like a piece of dissembling.

To be a Christian in any biblical sense means that your Christian understanding affects all of your life. To say that your views are not held for religios reasons but for other reasons is dualistic and less than fully faithful to your profession to be a follower of Christ who most certainly spoke to a related issue (John 8).

Speaking the truth in love :) well said David P

"Let us stir one another up to good works"

Lyle.. there is no reason for your faith not to impact your assessment of social phenomema, and every reason for it to DO so,
but we also have the democratic right to express well reasoned views on social issues such as this one.

The only thing I'd add, is that IF you are speaking in a mode where it is coming strictly from your/our faith, then indeed lets all say so.

There was nothing in your article that I saw which needed that qualification. Perhaps write another on the 'Christian view of Prostitution" ? :)

blessings in Him

OzSpen, my personal experience hasn't brought me close to the industry, but it would seem to make sense that those who require funding for an expensive habit would be drawn to prostitution. I would think the usual addict/prostitute story would have to run along the lines of "I became a prostitute to support my drug habit" rather than "I turned to drugs to make my job bearable". Couldn't she simply have chosen a different line of work if it was that bad? And what of the male drug addicts, do they embark on a lifestyle of petty crime first and then start taking the drugs to deal an associated mental stress? Of course not they steal to support the addiction.

A pity that discussion has been diverted away from the real issue - the harm from prostitution - because of a discussion about one's religious motivation. Yes, one's faith as a Christian (and I am one) affects all areas of life, including one's views on sex and prostitution. However there are many people out there who do not profess a religious view but are extremely concerned about the effects of prostitution. Sheila Jeffreys, a lesbian feminist from Melbourne, writes extensively about the exploitation of women by prostitution. She is involved in CATWA - Coalition against trafficking in women - and has been involved in the legislation in Sweden to curb the prostitution trade.
In Victoria, when brothels were legalised in 1994 the 'reason' given was it would stop illegal brothels. Did it? NO. Prior to legalisation, there were an estimated 50 illegal brothels. There are currently 85-90 legal brothels, numerous escort agencies and a growing number (more than 1500) of registered single operators.
The number of illegal brothels has also risen sharply. In 1999 police estimated there were more than 100 illegal brothels.
Some reports have said there are up to 400 illegal brothels.
Then there are so many ‘street sex’ prostitutes that the State government tried to create ‘tolerance zones’ and ‘safe hotels’ so that the prostitutes could have somewhere to see their clients ‘safely’. Local residents objected to the proposal that their streets would be near these ‘tolerance’ zones and the proposal was dropped.
Since ‘legalisation’, there have been numerous cases of sex slaves brought to Melbourne for prostitution and other cases of ‘underage girls’, even in the legal brothels. Legalisation has not ‘cleaned up’ the industry.
Jenny Stokes, Salt Shakers.

Thank you, Jenny Stokes, for helping to get this discussion back on track on the harm prostitution does to women and men.

Consider former Melbourne prostitute, Sarah Priesley’s story, as documented in her recent book, The Prostitution Trap (Smithfield, NSW: Gary Allen Pty Ltd., 1997). She describes how demeaning it was to present herself in the brothel’s waiting room to potential clients: “It was bizarre, hearing three men talking about my body as if it was a piece of meat” (p. 23). Priesley explains what prostitution did to her:

"Inside myself, I felt I was dying. Doing this was taking my dignity away and I couldn’t believe that I had sunk this low, to let a stranger use my body for his pleasure with only money as recompense. I had reached my lowest ruin; now I was wallowing in it. What would it take to feel worse than this? . . .
At the back of my mind common sense asked how could money be an objective, if you are generally unhappy. Most of the time you feel like dirt, after a bad client, or sometimes even a good one. To me it seemed like a vicious circle, a complicated merry-go-round" (pp. 25, 30).

Sincerely,

I applaud the posts of Jenny Stokes and OzSpen.. Prostitution is a blot on society, and its growth [even to importing "sex slaves" existing under disgusting and soul destroying conditions] demonstrates how sick and cruel some Australians can be. Legalisation was a mistake. There must be no more loopholes for the brothel owners and other pimps to spread this cancer further.

Yup. Let's ban prostitution and return it to the control of organised crime and corrupt police, where it belongs.

That's going to create 'a safe working environment for prostitutes'

er... NOT!!

Please get real, people. Prostitution is extant in every human society - in some places, hard to distinguish from marriage, admittedly.

Legislation to regulate the industry is tantamount to state pimping. Government intrusion into private lives is deeper now then ever before – at best, it achieves a false sense of security, at worst, assists in family and community breakdown.

While business groups are starting to quantify and question the costs of government regulation, its deindividuated citizenry continue to demand more of the same.

Prostitution harms society in ways not easily articulated. Criminalising demand, but not supply, may be confusing at first, until one remembers that both criminalisation, and regulation of supply has failed. Perhaps incarceration of our sisters, daughters, wives … mothers, is after all, more difficult, than other men.

Let’ do what the Swedes eventually did –deem it demeaning and abusive to women and collectively fund their career change.

Mahatma Duck,

Just about every unlawful act that has been legislated against here in Qld. has people who continue to practise such unlawful behaviour. I'm thinking of sexual abuse, domestic violence, theft, murder, etc.

Legislation does not stop all of such actions, but it sure sends the message that sexual abuse, domestic violence, theft and murder are wrong and will not be tolerated in this society.

If I am to use your analogy across the board ("Prostitution is extant in every human society"), Mahatma, I would give up on life because sexual abuse, domestic violence, theft and murder are extant in every human society.

I reject your obnoxious suggestion that prostitution is "hard to distinguish from marriage, admittedly." As a family counsellor, I see some of the gory things associated with some marriages, but marriage, for most people, is nothing like prostitution. Are you suggesting that people sell themselves for sex in their own marriage?

Sincerely,

Come on, OzSpend, that's a classically disingenuous argument. "Sexual abuse, domestic violence, theft and murder" all involve infrigements against unwilling victims, while a sexual act transacted between two consenting adults, paid for or otherwise, does not. The most degrading thing I can see about prostitution, for both sex workers and their clientele, is when this transaction is made illegal.

It is also disingenuous for Shelton to cloak his Christian wowser agenda behind a contrived concern for a safe working environment for sex workers, when his real agenda is to have prostitution re-criminalised because it offends his morals. He has also campaigned to try and have Toowoomba's adult shops closed down for the same reason. Many of us find it very offensive when religious zealots seek to impose their morality on the rest of us, particularly when they do so dishonestly.

You've also quoted me out of context about the structural parallels between marriage and prostitution "in some places". Many anthropological studies have established that a major function of marriage in some societies is the exchange of wealth and women between groups of men, with the resultant legitimisation of sexual access to women being in some ways equivalent to prostitution.

In terms of our own society, the familiar stereotype of the "gold-digger" carries some of this meaning, as does the exchange of gifts between lovers and marriage partners.

I cannot believe the prejudice of some of the responses in here!

It's eerily along the lines of "He's a stupid Jew, what we he know?". Instead however, the Christian religion is being attacked here. I'm continuing to read comments which say his article is irrelevant because of his affliation with Christianity.

Yes its true, the Christian religion does influence people's values and attitudes. But so does everything else! Maybe Lyle has a friend down at the golf club whos daughter has looked into prostitution. Maybe he lives near a red light district. Who knows? The point is that 1000's of things influence who we are and what we believe, so why should he have to list them all? It's almost like we want him to wear his own Star of David, except we'll make it a Crucifix. We should make it a law. Then when a religious guy makes any opinion, we can just rag him. Such discrimination.

Let's open our minds and look at Lyles reasoning for his views. It's not like he's saying "God damns prostitutes to hell". They are completely rational and founded!

Although I am *not* religious (sorry guys you cannot write MY comment off as some religious crap), I have a relative who is a Christian. They have well thought-out views on this area, and rather than just being full of opinions, they sacrificed their career to starting an organisation which keeps young kids off the streets and gives them opportunities.

So before we sit on our soapbox and rag these people, how about we have a genuine look at what they are saying and give them some time of the day. The reality is for all the bad we point out, our country owes alot to the Christian religion.

Justin

Mahatma Duck,

It's impossible to have a logical discussion with you when you describe Shelton's article as a cloak for "his Christian wowser agenda." Here you are off and running with the use of a genetic logical fallacy.

When you want to write off Shelton's views because he is a Christian, it is parallel to not believing our model for the benzene molecule because its founder based it on a dream of a snake biting its tail. It's a genetic fallacy, as is yours when you deal this way with Shelton's views. I don't know Mr. Shelton, but I do know that when you engage in the use of logical fallacies, logical discussion is over.

Prostitution is degrading whether it is legal or illegal. Others and I have provided the evidence on this forum, but you don’t seem to be in a mind to consider what it does to the prostitute.

Mahatma, you are hypocritical in what you expect of Mr. Shelton when he writes an article. I notice that you don't tell us clearly at the beginning of each of your posts any of the following:
+ Your worldview;
+ Your epistemology;
+ Your view on metaphysics;
+ Your understanding of logic;
+ Your religious convictions, whether they be atheist, agnostic, theist, pantheist, panentheist, wicca, satanist, secularist, humanist, etc.

Why not?

Sincerely,

Ozspen, those that are prepared to write articles, should be prepared to state their positions and why they feel that way, religiously or otherwise. Why should those that make comments on subjects have to divulge their viewpoints on other aspects of life. I know the religious normally do, because they lack substance in any other approach and must resort to futility in expression.

Prostitutes have free choice, those that are imported as sex slaves don't, but they do it for the money, in this country they can walk out. Most don't because they know they are here illegally and don't want to be sent back.

Prostitution is only wrong when it encroaches into others lives. It may be immoral, but that is a religious standpoint. Lyle has merit in what he says, but he does disguise his true colours from those that don't know of him. So it is reasonable for others to out him. Then all are aware of his true affiliations and reasoning, write it, cop it.

Prostitution doesn't seem to be degrading for those involved, it certainly isn't degrading for the handicapped that have been able to sexually express for the first time in their lives. Just the opposite, it brings them joy and a feeling of being part of the human race.

Most relate to the poor women involved, but what about the large number of male prostitutes. They face the same problems.

Until an approach can be found that puts prostitution into a manageable situation and negatives controlled, we will continue to have a high incidence of criminal activity surrounding it.

Prohibition isn't an answer, but controlled legalisation has worked in other industries, so maybe a different form of control should be implemented for prostitution. Those that step outside, should cop it big time, worker, customer or boss. Take away all they own, that will stop them, as money is the main goal for all involved.

OzSpin,

I'm not trying to have a "logical discussion" with you or anybody else - indeed, I've noticed that a classic tactic of disingenuous religious zealots is to try and turn debates into word games utilising the limited conceptual apparatus available to them. Perhaps that's why you're being obtuse and disingenuous in your own arguments?

Quite simply, it goes like this: Lyle Shelton, a well-known Christian activist in Toowoomba, writes a shoddy article in which he disingenuously claims to be advocating for safer working consitions for sex workers, when in fact his agenda is to re-criminalise prostitution itself because it offends his morality. In his accompanying self-description, he somehow forgets to mention his Christian activism, in favour of AFL and jogging. When others quite correctly out him in his dishonesty, other Christians claim that we're only disagreeing with his facile argument because he's Christian.

Wrong. What we object to are the dishonest tactics deployed by religious fanatics who wish to see their values imposed on the rest of society. I have no problems with Christians, Muslims or Scientologists who wish to model our society on the writings of the apostles, Mohammed, or L. Ron Hubbard, and wish to argue honestly on that basis. However, it's when they attempt to impose their views on the rest of us through insidious and disingenuous means that they need to be outed.

To return to the topic, I imagine that working as a prostitute can be degrading, as indeed could flipping burgers at McDonald's. However, in the former case a large proportion of that degradation is attributable to precisely the kinds of shame and alienation that are promoted by prohibition and moral finger-wagging by religious zealots masquerading as counsellors and advocates. Re-criminalising prostitution could only make it even more degrading for sex workers.

Lastly, alchemist is quite correct when s/he points out that it is incumbent upon article contributors to state their affiliations honestly. I would have thought that the inclinations and beliefs of commentators on those articles should be inferred from our comments.

To both Alchemist and Mahatma Duck:

As a former TV journalist, reporter and newsreader, it was never a requirement, nor should it be, that I should state my worldview up front of any article I wrote and presented.

Both of you don't want to deal in a reasonable manner with the content of Mr. Shelton's article. So you resort to attacking the person by use of a genetic logical fallacy. Logical discussion (what is needed for a reasonable conversation on this forum) cannot be continued while you engage in such unreasonable tactics.

No matter what Mr. Shelton's worldview, he deserves to be assessed on the content of his article.

As for Alchemist's view, "Why should those that make comments on subjects have to divulge their viewpoints on other aspects of life. I know the religious normally do, because they lack substance in any other approach and must resort to futility in expression," this is an indicator of the narrowness of his breadth of reading and using a futile and inaccurage stereotype. It also has a lot to do with his inability to engage in a logical discussion of depth, based on the content of Mr. Shelton's article.

Sincerely,

Much has been made of the fact that Lyle Shelton is a minister of religion. So what? It is claimed that he is trying to impose his Christian views on the community. Again, so what? The same could be said of anyone who opens his mouth, takes up a pen or uses a computer to express his ideas. And that applies to alchemist, mahatma duck and the rest of those who are opposed to religion.

We re being bombarded with ideas via the media and internet [many of them
what I consider to be harmful to the community] but we are lucky enough to live in a country which enjoys freedom of speech, so we have to deal with this as best we can in a democratic manner. Which means that Lyle Shelton is entitled to write articles for OLO regardless of whether he is a minster or not, and we will discuss them on their merits.

Thanks for the welcome to OLO BOAZ_David. I am new here.

Sorry to keep you waiting on my reply The alchemist but today is my workday. You said I “can't see past your (sic) self righteous illusions” Actually I am not self righteous, my hope for righteousness is based fully in Christ ;)

I have been friends, for over twenty five years, with people with various severe disabilities and have worked in a supportive way for longer with many others, so am very aware of the challenges they face.

Surprisingly, you may find that I view sex as something wonderful and beautiful, good, enjoyable and certainly not demeaning or a “fault in humans”. I actually believe that it is a good gift of a loving God to us.

When sex is used in the context of prostitution, then it is demeaning, dehumanising and destructive. This will happen to all good things when they are removed from the proper context for which they were intended.

Perhaps The alchemist and mahatma duck need to understand better that soliciting from a prostitute is not on par with buying a loaf of bread – a simple contractual agreement and transaction set between two people.

Of course Christians are concerned about the spiritual and moral problems with prostitution, but I respect mahatma duck and the alchemist are not interested in those.
It is degrading and dehumanising at other levels as well because of the effect on both the parties involved;

1. The man has not respected and honoured the woman in this liason(see Pat H.) – will she ever be invited and introduced to family and friends functions or secretly hidden from the rest of his life. He has put the woman on the same level as a vending machine, that is dehumanising.

2. Of much greater concern is the effect on women. Prostitutes speak of the incredible physical pain their work brings, it does sound really demanding physically, actually akin to torture. This is why so many turn to drugs – to dull the pain as OzSpen correctly mentioned. It is not to be thought of as a fun thing for women who like sex as ignorant contributors have made out. Add to this the likelihood of contracting disease which increases pain and drug use. See what ruby shared. Another factor is that once a woman gets involved in prostitution it is difficult to get out. Like drinkers and gamblers many find themselves caught in its powerful grip and they cannot just walk away from it.
Add to this the danger in this life, how many prostitutes are the victims of violent crime or murder.
The relationship a women has to her clients is like a farmer has with his herd of animals – that is dehumanising. Again it is not a wholesome relationship, therefore it is degrading.

The fact that money changes hands cannot legitimise the sexual service provided. How facile to state that because the sex industry is paid well everything should be just monitored. To The alchemist, for the above reasons, sending a disabled person off to a prostitute is harmful, despite your or their desires and feelings. We as community fail women and men when we try to normalise and legalise the prostitution business.
I am not the deluded one.

Ozspen, I was referring to forums regarding authors revealing their world view. It is common in many publications and forums.

I haven't attacked Lyle personally. Cheddar, well he had to brow beat himself with, “I am a minister of religion”, wish is typically self righteous. But no answers, just self righteous indignation, very boring.

I agree with Pat H and put forward a suggestion of asset confiscation. But I understand the confusion in seeing something only from one viewpoint and missing fact.

Cheddar, not all sex workers are drug addicted, many are kind and believe they are providing a genuine service. What gives you the right to determine how a disabled person can express themselves if others are willing to help. Thinking for them, not self righteous.

“The relationship a women has to her clients is like a farmer has with his herd of animals – that is dehumanising. Again it is not a wholesome relationship, therefore it is degrading.” If this is so, where does that leave you, or don't you eat meat or use animal products. Not self righteous and hypocritical

“The fact that money changes hands cannot legitimise the sexual service provided. “ The fact that money changes hands, doesn't legitimise religion either, just enlightens us as to what it really is about.

Cheddar, I never use vending machines

Prostitution is stupid, along with gambling, smoking, the dehumanising use of animals and religion. They have all caused a great deal of harm to societies throughout history. If you are going to ban one, then ban them all. And lets not forget driving, 6 times more killed in vehicle accidents and tens of thousands injured, compared to illicite drugs and prostitution. Ban alcohol to, that works.

Morals are a sociological phenomena, different culture or religion, different morals. It is how we ethically approach things that count.

Legalisation hasn't worked, nor prohibition, it won't. Sensible control can, what other option is there. Don't give us the religious rubbish, you've had thousands of years to get it right, look at the world now.

Alchemist has no answere to human abuse he is an anachist as he leads the field in verbal abuse. He is constantly abusing religion as the problem to all the worlds ills. His pitiful life is based in negative abuse that was instilled into his mind by his father.

Quote alchemist, "Legalisation hasn't worked, nor prohibition, it won't. Sensible control can, what other option is there. Don't give us the religious rubbish, you've had thousands of years to get it right, look at the world now."

Paul a first century convert to Christ entered the pagan city of Ephesus where women working as religious prostitutes to Dianna the god of fertility was worshipped. They abandoned their former life to follow sexual purity, and sexually abused girls have been doing that voluntarily it ever since. They speak up now indicating their life has dramatically changed for the better. Faith is a voluntary life, and those who have chosen pure conscience from the filth of sexual service to male perversion can testify today. Linda and her house of hope has been a testimony to that release from sexual perversion. The fact that her life is constantly under threat from pimps indicates who is a abuser of women.

More disingenuous bleating and happyclapper hogwash. OzSpin, this is how Shelton chose to describe himself for the article under discussion:

"A former rural journalist, Lyle Shelton is serving his second term as a Councillor on the Toowoomba City Council. He is a father of four young children and his interests include Australian Football, jogging, reading and public affairs."

Given the salience of Christianity to both his life and the topic of the article, why did he choose to conceal this in his description? However, I'm more than happy to ignore his deception, because the article fails to convince on its own premises.

As another former journalist, OzSpin must be aware that one of the major reasons that prostitution was legalised in Queensland was to remove its control from organised crime and corrupt police. S/he hasn't addressed at all my question as to how re-criminalising prostitution would in any way improve the lot of sex workers.

Instead, s/he presents us with her own logical fallacy - that of the false analogy - when she compares prostitution with theft, assault and other crimes against the person. S/he avoids my rebuttal of this ploy by accusing others falsely of deploying ad hominem arguments against Shelton.

Then we get the happyclapper assertion that sex is God's gift and is degrading if it happens in ways other than God intended (i.e. other than ways of which religious wowsers approve). What nonsense!

Christians should stop using deception to try and impose their morals on the rest of us. They are free to boycott brothels and sex shops, just as the rest of us are free to avoid their places of worship.

Yes, the prostitution legislation needs improvement, but prohibition is not the answer.

While I support the idea that all those able to work should do so, does it mean that single mothers, once their youngest child starts school, could be required to work in a legal and regulated sex-industry?

Mahatma Duck
You carry out disingenuous bleating.
You carry out happyclapper hogwash.
You conceal your description.
You carry out deception.
You present logical fallacy.
You deploy ad hominem arguments.
You are nonsense.
You impose your morals on the rest of us.

I think it was mentioned elsewhere that you probably hold the record on OLO for maligning other posters and other people, and the same can be returned to you.

Prostitution is a health and safety problem, with considerable risks involved for both men and women. So how to solve that problem?

If there is a demand for prostitution, then there will be prostitution. Increase the demand for prostitution, will likely increase prostitution (somehow or somewhere). So identifying what creates the demand, will likely go a long way to reducing or eliminating the risks involved in prostitution for both men and women.

Oh great - so now I'm being stalked around these forums by someone whose often puerile comments reveal a distinctly odd attitude to women and sex.

However, in the spirit of debate - of course there is a demand for prostitution, otherwise it wouldn't exist, would it? And the fact that it's often called 'the world's oldest profession' would seem to indicate that this demand has been around for a long time.

Funnily enough, people everywhere seem to enjoy having sex. And also everywhere there are others who want to make rules about when, where and with whom this can happen.

I'm certainly not saying that prostitution shouldn't be regulated, rather that the motives for doing so should be based on rational reasons such as health and safety, rather than the imposition of a religious morality.

If Timkins could see past his need to vindictively pursue those who have the nerve to disagree with him, he might actually see that there is quite a bit that we agree upon about this particular issue.

Mahatma Duck
You are not great.
You stalk other people.
You make puerile comments.
You reveal a distinctly odd attitude to women and sex.
You cannot see past your need to vindictively pursue those who have the nerve to disagree with you.

Why don’t you come up with a list of ways to reduce the demand for prostitution Mahatma Duck. Oh, I forgot, you generally don’t answer too many questions. Too much focus on other things, such as making maligning remarks about other people.

If Christians are truely speaking out against prositution on safety grounds as opposed to moral should we not hear similar concerns voiced about other jobs and activities which place individuals at risk?

Example when have we ever heard the church call for safer industrial work places? Or had something to say about road safety initiatives?

For some reason it's always prostitution, drugs etc. those activities which also happen to be in conflict with Christian morality. And as we're seeing here they will even sometimes denounce safe practices if they are against the churches teachings e.g. condom use.

Here is a report on a study which seems to contradict what has been previously posted.

http://www.fhi.org/en/RH/Pubs/factsheets/breakslip.htm

It says that most breakages occur to a very small number of people. Of course there are always dunces who won't get it right, and it is irresponsible to average their experience across the whole sample.

Quote, "If every couple were equally likely to experience condom breakage/slippage, then each couple would have been expected to have about 1 out of 11 condoms either break or slip off. However, in this study, 16 couples (less than 10 percent of participants) were responsible for 50 percent of all the breakage/slippage."

Common sense and experience tells me 1 in 8 do not break, you have to question why someone would be motivated to quote such an outlandish figure.

Harry C,
The Christians I connect with are at the forefront of legislation in NSW Parliament on deaths in the workplace. So you will need to find a new argument.

Would you mind elaborating on these Christians you know Philo? What are their positions, what activities are they involved in?

I would expect certain people to be involved in spearheading such legislation regardless of religion if their jobs, and it appears government ones in this case, are to do such a thing.

My point is when do typical mainstream church goers voice concerns about unsafe workplaces with such gusto as they are here as a matter of usual debate.

The alchemist - declaring myself a minister of religion was not intended to be a self righteous claim - from your acerbic posts toward Christians it would seem it would be far easier to not declare my calling - I was declaring it to defuse your argument that Christians sneak into these forums to push our "holy ways". It seems you just dont want to hear from Christians period!
You also missed the point about a prostitute to customer relationship (ie human to human) being like human to animal relationship and therefore dehumanising. The relationship I have to the food I eat is not dehumanising, because I dont eat humans but animals. My point is that when humans treat other humans in a destructive way it is degrading and dehumanising. This is the case with prostitution - illegal, legal or "sensibly controlled". The nature of the sexual appetite outside of a mutually wholesome relationship is that it will grow.

HarryC are you saying that dunces dont use prostitutes. Of course you are arguing that the people that use prostitutes all know how to use condoms proficiently so the prostitutes and customers will be safe.
Could it be that some "dunces" are not screened out at the door and a certain percentage of condom breakages will therefore occur. It only needs one case to cause a spread of disease. It happens all too often.
HarryC, the Alchemist and Mahatma Duck, you have heard facts, from Christians and others, but chose to reject the truth - legalising brothels, however "sensibly controlled" will always be destructive to those involved. Your collective thinking would have us try to put out a fire by dousing it with petrol!

Cheddar, “I was declaring it to defuse your argument that Christians sneak into these forums to push our "holy ways". Where did I say that, you never sneak, just slither.

The nature of the sexual appetite outside of a mutually wholesome relationship is that it will grow. Define “wholesome relationship”

Cheddar, “The relationship a women has to her clients is like a farmer has with his herd of animals – that is dehumanising “. And then,

“You also missed the point about a prostitute to customer relationship (ie human to human) being like human to animal relationship and therefore dehumanising.” Prostitute to customer, farmer to animal, not somewhere I want my mind to go thank you. You do represent religion, don't you?

During my study into the history of religious societies, I came to the conclusion that the purpose of religious propaganda was not to persuade or convince, nor to inform, but to humiliate. Therefore the less it corresponded to reality, the better.

When people are told to remain silent as they are being told the most obvious lies. Or worse, when they are forced to repeat the lies themselves. They lose once and for all their sense of probity.

To assent to obvious lies is to co-operate with evil, and in some small way to become evil oneself. One's standing to resist anything is thus eroded, and even destroyed.

A society of emasculated liars is easy to control. If you examine religious moral correctness, it has the same effect and is intended to.

The continuing attempts to deny religious morals in this subject, whilst trying to defend them, speaks for its self. As usual, the religious are quick to condemn or dismiss other views, but are unable to provide workable solutions.

Say cheese

The alchemist,

I don’t think your post has much to do with prostitution or STD’s.

Personally I couldn’t care less if the author belongs to a particular religion or not. He likes AFL, so should someone try and stereotype him according to which AFL team he supports?

I think the issue of prostitution becomes important, because of the risks involved, and because of the likelihood that prostitution can markedly increase in future years.

There is a projected doubling of single person households over the next 20 yrs, but even with single person households, people will want sex, and many more people will be seeking sex with prostitutes, or through one-night stands etc. That means that people will have more sexual partners, which increases the risk of STD’s being spread throughout society.

STD’s are now important because so many are becoming immune to medicines, and we are returning back to the days when there were no known cures for most STD’s, and someone who got a STD such as syphilis, died a lingering and painful death.

Penicillin is now as useless as asprin to cure many STD’s, so eventually there will have to be ways developed to reduce the number of sexual partners people generally have. Any suggestions?

Timkins, what you say is very true, I don't care what the author is either. The first poster raised the religious bit.

As to your statement, “He likes AFL, so should someone try and stereotype him according to which AFL team he supports?” Yes, if he doesn't barrack for the Swans.

As long as the human race indulges in contact that involves the exchange of biological fluids, then we will have the transmition of disease. This covers all aspects of infection, not just sexual. In the case of viral and biological infection unrelated to sex, we can't stop it but try to minimise the effects.

Condoms go a way towards this, even with percentage failures, as does anti viral medication. In the past some STD's were thought to be under control, but as you state, that is not the case.

We can't stop people having sex, and we can't stop them sneezing, sweating, nor breathing So until we have a cure or can remove the cause, and that is not prohibition, then we have to lessen the effects.

No matter what ideology or culture you represent, with all aspects of life there are varying degrees of hygiene appreciation, so there will be varying degrees of susceptibility to infection. That makes the task even harder.

The first thing we must do is to accept that prostitution will not go away. Then minimise it, heavily regulate and control it. If you make breaches of the regulations the same for all participants and the outcomes so economically devastating and enforce it. It may become like the racing industry, in the background for the fools, but under control.

The Alchemist,
I have read of a description that prostitution is like a waterbed. Press down in one area and it increases in another. So if QLD reduces prostitution, then prostitution is likely to increase in another state, or in a neighbouring country. So the overall demand has to be reduced.

I also think that prostitution would not be a great contributor to STD’s overall, (although STD’s can be contacted by people involved in prostitution). I live in a town where there is no prostitution to my knowledge, but the main hospital has a STD clinic (and its most busy days are Mondays and Tuesdays). Many other towns would be similar, and I have heard that even common STD’s can be very difficult to treat, and even forms of hepatitis are now difficult to treat.

I think that society has had its fling with promiscuity. Higher rates of promiscuity inevitably lead to higher rates of STD’s, and now man is running out of drugs to treat STD’s.

So it is back to the process of reducing the number of sexual partners that people have as much as possible. Some people may not like that, but inevitably it will have to be done to ensure people survive.

To: National Desk Contact: William C. Shumay Jr., Principal Investigator for Germ Theory, 330-995-4394, wcs@wordverse.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio, Oct. 5 -- In his research for Germ Theory, a new book on the latest surprises in medicine, veteran science writer William C. Shumay Jr. has uncovered a new understanding of human chronic disease that points away from the role of eating habits, exercise, and attitude. Hundreds of new medical studies suggest instead that sexual abstinence and monogamy may be the ultimate strategy to keep dangerous disease at bay throughout an individual's life.

Our health and lifespan, it seems, may depend more on fidelity than food choice.

The research for the Germ Theory report indicates that intimate human contact with a number of partners is the most likley way to pick up a tumor virus, a brain infection, or perhaps the germ for an inflammation that means a heart attack years down the road.

We Share Lots of Germs – And Some Will Get Us

Timkins, how do you reduce the number of sexual partners people have, draconian laws and special sex police. That would go down like a lead balloon with the populance. It would do nothing for prostitution as can be seen from pasts attempts. Education from an early age would help to inform people of what they face when reaching puberty.

An interesting scenarios has developed in Tasmania, the ruling politically correct elite have been pushing for very liberal prostitution laws. The public outrage at having brothels everywhere, except within a few hundred metres of schools, has forced a back down. The elite have thrown up their hands and banned brothels, but prostitution is still legal as long as there aren't more than two operating from a premise. This is just an example of those that want power and control over our live, when they can't get what they want, they ruin it for everyone. Currently the police have said that they can't cope with this change, as trying to decide what is legal and what isn't, is almost impossible. It will be interesting to see the outcome.

Philo. I am sure that there are many examples of those that have been celibate and lived a long life. But there is as much if not more evidence, that those that have partners also live longer lives than single people. It depends on lifestyle and genetics, which can be changed. You eat junk food, you get junk health, thats a scientific fact.

A tumor virus, what scientific study discovered and describes tumor viruses. If this were a fact, then most people who have come in contact with those that have tumors, would more than likely have contracted the disease. I found nothing to support you statement on either the wordverse site, or the CDC site. Germ theory dates back to 50BC and was reinforced by Pasteur in the 1800's.

Please enlighten us all with some references. Put forward some ideas that would work better, than very strict control and severe penalties for all involved if they step outside the rules.

Sorry Alchemist, you will be ruined and not able to exploit sex workers in Tasmania. Quote, "This is just an example of those that want power and control over our live, when they can't get what they want, they ruin it for everyone." Poor alchemist is ruined!

From Former Madam: The official change of heart follows the evidence given to MPs in the Tasmanian Legislative Council by Linda Watson and two of her girls - Shannon and Linda - about the enormous mental and physical damage done by prostitution (both legal and illegal) to those involved.
________________________________
"Dr Mary Anne Layden, a US psychotherapist and keynote speaker at the inaugural Sexual Integrity Forum held in August 2005 at Parliament House, Canberra, said, 'There has been a dramatic increase in pornography use in recent years - with the internet piping it 24/7 into homes, in harder and more pathological forms, in a venue children know better how to use than adults. Previously you would have to go to a seedy part of town to access such material. Now it is anonymous.'

"Dr Layden attributes the dramatic increase in child sexual predators to the wide availability of sexually explicit imagery. 'All of these predators have been exposed to internet pornography. Such material helps to normalise destructive pathological behaviour,' she says, adding that as with any addiction, 'The more pornography is consumed, the more the appetite grows.'

"The following statistics show the desperate need for government action regarding internet pornography:
* sexual assault in Australia has increased by almost 30% since 1999;
* 84% of boys and 60% of girls have had exposure to internet pornography;
* 73% of boys and 11% of girls have watched X-rated videos;
* men in prison for sexual assault have doubled since 1988;
* the risk of sexual violence doubled in adulthood for women who were abused as a child;
* two thirds of sex crimes in Australia are committed against children."

Philo: Thank you for some very useful information. As for the evidence of physical and psychologial damage done to prostitutes, when you think about their constant sexual activities with all sorts of males, how could they help but sustain such physical and mental damage? No wonder many of them use drugs to keep going, which means a further downward spiral.

Alchemist
I was once trapped in Amsterdam waiting for a bus trip to start. At that time Amsterdam was rampant with prostitution, drug dealing etc. You couldn’t walk down a street without being approached by a streetwalker or someone wanting to sell drugs, and I couldn’t wait to get out of the place.

What to do to reduce the number of sexual partners would be interesting in a historical context, as in the past, there were no known cures for most STD’s, and society is now going back to that, as so many STD’s are becoming immune to modern drugs.

I think many past societies began to instinctively identify that increased promiscuity lead to disease and the breakdown of that society. Basically people went feral, so they began to establish laws, mores or codes of behaviour to limit promiscuity. Marriage would be one of those things, but starting about the 1960’s, western society wanted to throw out marriage (as it believed it was repressive) and instead have short lived de facto relationships, or more one-night stands.

In the UK the avg length of a de facto relationship is estimated at only 3 yrs, in the US less than 2 yrs, but even within the de facto relationship, there is often higher rates of infidelity than in marriage. So a return to marriage is one way of reducing the number of sexual partners.

What is concerning is the decreasing age at which young people first have sex, as quite often they are too inexperienced to practise safe sex (but no sex is 100% save). The avg age for a girl to have sex in the US has dropped from 19 to 15
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20051004-0656-sexstudy.html,

But if they have more sex partners throughout their life, they increase the risk of an STD, and many are becoming incurable. So, abstinence for young people may have to be enforced by parents, to stop them from contacting an STD, which can ruin them for the rest of their lives, or simply kill them before they reach adulthood.

Bad luck for teenagers, but it keeps them alive.

Well if families looked after their children better and when they get on their feet in young adult years, maybe it would be different.

I come from a family with money to get anything. Their rejection of me, due to my circumstances, and my inability due to discrimination to get decent ongoing employment..............led me in one direction.

To the perilous nocturnal underworld of Sydney.

I'll see you all driving through William St in your luxury cars looking at us like we're just some common trash. But we're human beings. And but for circumstance, we could be someone else. We're someone's kids too.

X Merchants kid,
There is a better life than what you are involved in. Your present relationships are not true love but more of the same abuse you feel you deserve. Recognise there is one who can truly love you despite your feeling of self failure. God appointed a better life for you quit the self victimisation and seek the potential of the best purpose God designed for you. Recognition of God can release the potential he has for you, rather than end up lost and dead in the gutter. Visit Wesley Central Mission in Castlereagh St Sydney.

X Merchant's Kid

I was really saddened by your post. I do not pass judgement. I have nursed mental health clients in similar lifestyles. Did you have a drug habit before you began your other life, or have you developed one since?

I wish you well.

There used to be an excellent group of GPs in Surrey Hills who specialised in helping people with gender differences. They are probably still there.

Cheers
Kay

I've been in and out of there for years. Each time I've come back I stay longer. I live in a public housing apartment in a secret location near the city. As to drugs, I'm reluctant to get into great detail, but will say I've done more since I went into it than before I did. The whole thing's a big part of my life. How would I go outside? Been there before many times, its no good. When I've had legal problems, its nigh on impossible to get fair treatment, they just look at you and well, you know. "justice is blind" ...ha!

Like the time I lost my ticket and ended up with the police for six hours, and was stripped and searched they think I had drugs concealed even in my anal cavity (a common occurence)--anyway I had nothing on me--a new strategy of users to avoid prosecution is to have it straight away or [rarely] carry it in the mouth and swallow it to avoid detection if picked up.. I'd done nothing wrong that day. I'm sure if I lived at Waverton or Lindfield, had a suit and was picked up at 830 am with lost ticket it would be a different story.

The punters, to which I will informally refer to the men as, come from a wide range of socio-economic profile and occupation. Including international visitors, commercial travelers, local professionals, businessmen, skilled, semi-skilled and unskilled worker. The length of meetings ranges from 5/10 minutes to a number of hours with the most typical being 20 minutes to an hour, either in a hired room in a "safe house", the punter's motor vehicle, the punter's room if staying in recognized city hotels, the punter's residence in some cases [for me once a house near Sirius Cove in Mosman and another in a waterfront 3-room luxury pyrmont apartment] or possibly the girl's home.

The income is at times high but also unpredictable.

What about the morality of families who abandon psychologically and/or toss out young adult children for moral type reasons? Is my father a proper man if he's unconcerned about my direction? He is to his lifting equipment and materials handling business clients who meet him when he arrives in a luxury Eurpoean car, eat in dress circle restaurants paid for on the gold Amex etc. He is to the Qantas club ["so I don't get stuck with the cattle"], the porters at the Crown casino tower in melbourne who take his bags up to his suite. And to the locals of the Norwood Payneham Stepney council in Adelaide.

Inner

I detect your loneliness. So sad.

I guess you would like to punch your father's "lights out"? Maybe you should - metaphorically!

Why can't you get out of this whirlwind of apparent trash? You seem to be a very good person. A sad person. A person in pain.

Why can't you change your identity and move out from where you live?

Pardon my naivety.

Thinking of you.

Kay

progeny of merchant,
I want to think of you as son of someone you admire. There is someone who will call you his son, it may not be your father; but God will make you his son if you seek him. It is the highest calling for us as human, He will consider you a joint heir with Christ Jesus.

Jesus was an outcast by the wealthy lawyers of his day, and they ultimately crucified him for violating their laws and for blasphemy, because he said he was the son of God. He is your hope, saviour and possible companion if you seek Him. I know Wesley Central Mission in Castlereagh St Sydney can help you move on if you ask for help.

I have no desire to move anywhere either now or in the short to medium term. I want to maximize my revenue potential in order to build my long-term prosperity and enjoy in the longer-term a high material standard of living, financial security etc.

And to be in the company of people who accept me as I come and not seek to change me. On occasions too numerous to elaborate on here I find the hypocrisy of organized religion too breathtaking to contemplate. Organized religion must advocate more firmly for social justice, families to stand by their kids, and for ALL persons in this country to have a fair opportunity, as we come, to participate in the social, cultural and most importantly, economic life in this society.

Organized religion of several groups are on the record as against subjects such as drug law reform, rights of non-heterosexual individuals, reproductive rights of women and in a book by UOW academic Sharon Beder, religion is often the handmaiden of business in terms of what's called a "work ethic".

A leading national [claiming to be Christian] charity with multimillion donor revenue, Mission Australia, has successfully sought to exclude our people from homeless womens' facilities meaning our people if using their facilities would have to stay with males, jeopardizing their safety and placing them at risk of molestation or assault.

The religious identification of some of my family is further testimony to the hypocrisy of religion and a many number of its followers, who ultimately aim to gain influence, if they haven't already, in government in order to subvert our tolerant and secular society to have laws moulded to fit their worldview.

Philo, I note you make no statement about the conduct of family in this or my parents.....does that mean you are in agreement with them, that they should have tossed me out in the gutter and the rich man that he is he shouldn't wire the prerequisite money to the surgeons who can render me the medical treatment necessary.

Don't abusive parents deserve the same standard of scrutiny that I do?

Dear progeny of merchant family,
I sense a burden of hurt going on in your mind. I do not know you or your parents so I cannot comment on that situation. All I can do is to appeal to you to seek help where possible help is available. My concern is that you might find your highest goals in life. Obviously your emotions do not reveal your current situation is totally satisfactory and fulfilling. Take a step where there is an open door that can assist you.

http://www.activelifting.com.au/

My family are Directors of the above business.

Of course I have some distress its I see the unresolved issue of rejection by my family that does my head in. It's the price I've paid for rejecting their control of me.

indigent outcast progeny of merchant family,
I feel you want a new and accepted life, but only you can achieve that. It is up to your will to decide to act. I had a look at your parents business site. But they cannot change who you are because according to you they have made you as you now are. You must decide to find a fulfilling life away from the things you despise. But be honest about the things you really despise, as I sense you would really like to know the love of your parents.

Can I tell you a story?
Lk. 15:11 - 24 Jesus said: “There was a man who had two sons. The younger one said to his father, `Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them. “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need.
cont:

So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no-one gave him anything. “When he came to his senses, he said, `How many of my father’s hired men have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired men.’

So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. “The son said to him, `Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ Make me like one of your hired men. “But the father said to his servants, `Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet.

Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

I can only say I will pray for you.

The only one squandering the wealth is my father. My brother is secure, but frugal, and I have no wealth whatsoever. He is younger than me and has acquired an interest in his business. It is a large business with a heavy annual turnover, but as a proprietary company, there is little information that can be found on ASIC or anywhere about its financial statements. He is a temperamental and intensively secretive man regarding his commercial affairs.

I am not a drug abuser or gambler. I'm not in need of money to blow away on self-destruction.

the tragedy of it all is that while people can meet another partner if they divorce etc you can't replace your family. Money has given them a dysfunctinal sense of power. It is known fact that many rich families use their money to control their children right into adult life. I think of him as a reprobate, and that nothing is capable of changing him as he is cold and has no feeling or empathy for me or anyone else at all.

I will continue doing what I do as long as necessary or until my youth is no longer with me. These should be the best years of my life, with a chance to live in comfort and dignity, receive all of the medical treatment I need [which is worth a fortune and not all in our [in]famous public health system], travel, go to college and have a chance at the same material standard of living enjoyed by all my family.

I must be upfront here about my scepticism about religion. My hopes and at times prayer for their change and reconciliation seem to always go unanswered. Why did I get such a dysfunctional and abusive family? Money certainly does not bestow respectability or decency on them by any means.

Philo our discussion is over. Maybe get off your high horse and go and push for better employment and medical treatment rights for us where you can make a difference to our lives. When its easy for me to get a job and I don't have to risk my life to get money for medical stuff, then I'll hear from you.

Goodbye.

Inner

When I read your posts I cry.

I wish that I could help you.

Sadly I say
Merry Christmas
Kay

Inner

I have been following this thread for some time now. You have a very clear and realistic view of your situation.

I hope you can go to college and achieve results which will enable you to be a part of the mainstream workforce. You current work has hours that fit in well with college hours - if you can keep on going with this type of work - it is very demanding.

You may find at college (or uni) that you can find alternative work. There are support networks there where you will find assistance.

As for your family - none of us get to choose them. The best thing you can do is to take care of yourself - you're the only one you have.

The sex industry is a tough game - legalising brothels has only made it marginally safer. Those who prefer to work for themselves, rather than pay 50% of their earnings to a brothel, (on the street or from their homes) have no protection.

You are aware of all that.

Perhaps a way to start would be a short course through TAFE or somewhere like that. Just take little tiny steps - trying to take on everything all at once can be paralysing. Think only of yourself for the time being.

I know from your posts that you are highly intelligent - I believe you can become the person you want to be.

Kind Regards

Dianne

What always disappointed me is that in the examination of prostitution as a social issue, is that:
all examination takes place on the basis that it is a problem per se;
examination does not take into account the social, cultural and economic factors that precipitate entry to or continued participation in, prostitution;
examination does not take into account wider social and economic conditions eg reduced housing affordability and an increase in low-paid and casual employment.
examination does not objectively take into account the health issues precipitating entry to or continued participation, eg our public health system denies to me and others the relevant necessary surgery, medical and allied treatments all particular to our well-being.....eg one must get over $10,000 to pay for basic sexual reassignment surgery. Though I've paid taxes in life and am an Australian citizen/born, our health system denies me this medical treatment.
examination does not take into account that if social, cultural and economic conditions were different, entry to prostitution might be reduced.

By way of background, I can still see the lights of the Coca Cola sign after midnight.