Good to see Gary Bouma defending the social responsibilities of the Church.

...I did this article the service of reading reports in associated links it presented, but to conclude anymore value to it than another bleat for human rights, I couldn’t: When the old “dead horse” of sympathy, for occupants of the endless boat-loads of foreign criminals arriving on Christmas island was ushered out, I found myself reflecting on a reality much more appropriate, the life of our own prisoners rotting in conditions more inhumane than those of Christmas Island.

...If anybody wants more proof of a country so devoid of ideas as Australia for solving social problems with imprisonment the only apparent option, then here is a quote from John Lawrence of the NT Criminal Lawyers assn., John Lawrence says, in response to the building of a proposed new $500million dollar Darwin prison:

…”the new prison will not make the streets of Darwin safer”.
"They are no safer now, by virtue of jailing so many people, than they were 20 years ago," he said.
"Arguably, they are less safe.
"This continual policy of just jailing everybody, it is really not the way to go."

...Now, why not some bleating from those so attached to the welfare of foreigners, towards our own citizens, “since charity begins at home”.

A well structured article.

"One of the duties owed to 'Caesar' by the church is to be accountable for what it does to civil society, social cohesion and the wellbeing of the larger community to which the church is one contributor."
by Gary Bouma

As Gary has noted, there are several "churches" interacting under the banner of 'the church'. They are all subsets of society (society under Caesar?). They all must interact with people who do not follow their faith - people of different faiths, and no faith.

"Giving to God what is due to God and to Caesar what is due to Caesar raises a complex network of accountabilities ..." is true. While that might "not separate the church[es] from society", it does not mean the State is equally beholden to the churches the way the churches could be considered beholden to society and the State that administers that society.

GB261011

Gary Buma,

How can anyone believe what you say?

By now, many people have realized that the union between State and Church cannot be separated, being it an association for the purpose of indulging in criminality.

The two institutions are complementary; the first installed to bully their victims out of the fruit of their labor and ‘The Church’ as instrument for keeping the despoiled hypnotized.

Many thinking people, deep in their heart, Sir, do know that you preach Submission not Peace and that submission to the State is the insanity that is driving humanity to an early grave.

But you close your eyes and, not unlike Nero, enjoy all you can get from your pedestal, leaving the bill to your children.

.

When one of the first paragraphs tries to imply a Hitler policy into the separation of church and state, you know it's going to be an awkward read.
And it sadly got worse from there;

All in all, by bleating about asylum seekers and waffling on about primitive forms of autocracy (monarchs and Caesars) in reference to modern governance, just reinforces my belief that the church is indeed completely out of touch with modern Australians and refuses to acknowledge it.

Perhaps if the Church would stop demonizing gays, abortion, atheists, euthanasia, contraceptives, stem-cell research- and would kindly stop conspiring to cover up misconduct by a handful of their priests, perhaps people outside (including non-practicing Catholics) might start to care what you say.

GB261011

Gary Buma,

How can anyone believe what you say?

By now, many people have realized that the union between State and Church cannot be separated being it an association for the purpose of indulging in criminality.

The two institutions are complementary; the first installed to bully their victims out of the fruit of their labor and ‘The Church’ as instrument for keeping the despoiled hypnotized.

Many thinking people, deep in their heart, Sir, do know that you preach Submission not Peace and that submission to the State is the insanity that is driving humanity to an early grave.

But you close your eyes and, not unlike Nero, enjoy all you can get from your pedestal, leaving the bill to your children.

.

"The passage has been used to legitimate the separation of church and state, and a kind of differentiation of responsibilities that usually, of late, leaves church and religious voices marginalised."

If religious voices are considered marginalised by the author I'd hate to see how mainstream he wants those voices to be.

Howard, Rudd, Costello, Abbott, Swan, Hockey, Keneally are just a few well known politicians who are quite publicly christain.

Some links that might generate more info

http://annacrabb.wordpress.com/invoking-religion/

http://www.smh.com.au/national/the-voluble-and-the-word-amen-to-that-20091009-gque.html

Hardly marginalised.

R0bert

"In 2011, 22.8 per cent of Catholics versus 34.1 per cent of Anglicans reported holding negative attitudes toward Muslims. This compared to a national figure of 25.5 per cent."

Of course, that could merely mean that if you know your own beliefs are nonsensical and unsupported, you are more likely to sympathise with others in the same position.

I'm sure that UFO theorists feel a good deal of sympathy for Bigfoot researchers, too.

horrible article & typical example of why many lame stream churches have lost it just as badly as the lame stream media & major mistakes political parties.

http://www.rense.com/general32/americ.htm #27 on this list is why "sociologists" pretending to be christians have lost there way, are UNchristian & UNaustralian.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIHeBJNFS1g here is a true/correct christian view of muzslimes.

Philo, as a christian i respectfully disagree. charity begins at home.

diver dan, true

McReal, the seperation of church & state was invented by PROTESTANT christians protesting about Anglican & Catholic Popes, Archbishops, etc directly governing as feudal leaders &/or as part of the monarchs cabinet.

As the article does get correct they intended for christian churches to be an important part of society, for christians to be elected to parliament, rather than be appointed automatically.

skeptic, how do you think the PROTESTANT part came into protestant christianity?

they were preaching DISobedience of the corrupt Anglican & Catholic churches as they were then. it was they who got "the enlightenment" & democracy of the ground.

King Hazza, agree completely with some much of what you said.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minaret_controversy_in_Switzerland are you aware of this? almost all of the churches, synagoges, government, political parties advocated AGAINST voting for this referendum, they were all tied up in this "interfaith" peace & love rubbish.

christianity is still quite strong in Switzerland many proletariat christians ignored their preachers who told them NOT to support the referendum.

different churches have been right & wrong on the other issues you mentioned. corruption is the real problem with our churches, same as some of our political parties.

I welcome your article Mr Bouma, which is as critical of our institutional God as it is of Caesar. My first thought is that we could easily replace God with a set of ethics that transcended sectarianism. Mainstream Christianity these days is synonymous with conservatism, intolerance and affluence, or at least complacency, as your statistic indicates, and according to true Protestant (re)form, I gather that that's what you're about addressing.
We don't need a separation of church (ethics) and state, indeed they ought to be irrevocably cloven, we just need to purge the cronyism. What we need is a set of reflexive ethics that church "and" state are beholden to, regardless of party or denomination.

Laws are a definition between Right and Wrong and attach consequence to both.

Right and Wrong are always, and will always be, Right or Wrong, no matter how popular or followed they may be.

How do we know what is Right and Wrong?

By all means have an opinion Gary but don't pervert and twist Scripture to justify your view. The number of people who have drowned since the Brown/Rudd/Gilard Government welcome mat was laid out is the true travisty of justice. It is an inconvenient truth you fail to face up to. Don't forget also all the refugess who can't afford people smugglers. I think Jesus heart might be with them somehow.

Formersnag you write

'different churches have been right & wrong on the other issues you mentioned. corruption is the real problem with our churches, same as some of our political parties.'

so true however the more secular a person the more in denial they are of their own corruption. Look at those protesting in the streets at the moment. They are truely self righteous people who fail to see the plank in their own eye.

Ethics eh!
What about taditional Protestant ethics, temperance, humility, industry and frugality.
We all agree that "western" societies promote indolence, profligacy and intemperance, the antidote would seem to be a no brainer.
Why do you think Africans are currently so prized as workers?
Good old Puritan Christian values.
Work hard, live a modest and frugal life and you'll be one of god's elect.

Indeed Formersnag, I was aware of the religious groups lobbying that way in Switzerland too (naturally, Christian groups only make a big deal about how bad Islamic movements are, when there are no secularist/kemalist movements in sight- otherwise it shows that they clearly see themselves having more in common with other religious groups than with the people increasingly bailing out of their own churches).
It also does show that the churches really have fallen out of the mainstream of some societies and are unable to sway substantial votes on an issue.

...Professor Bouma exposes himself as an “Christian Political Exemplificationist”. A fundamental of Political relevance is credibility. An imperative to Political credibility is successful leadership of national affairs which exhibit unifying social benefits to society in total. Under the regime of secularism, society becomes marginalised by the alternative it offers to “God” worship; appendaged with its simplicity of aged and traditional moral path offered by Christianity.

...The Bible abounds with example of societal outcomes applicable to moral depravation, when holding no other personal guide in life than one based on self-fulfilling moral effacement, postured now in the West by the modern-day infatuation with Lassa faire Capitalism, with its obsession on greed; the new God which failed!

...The good professor posits himself in readiness of the inevitable moral renascence of the West. The inverse of success is religion to the masses. When 1% of the population of Capitalist economies possess 99% of the wealth, religion is the winner. It is a tradition and condition of the deprived, and is coming to a church near you!

Formersnag, Wed 26 Oct, 5:48:12pm

There are may reasons for separation of church/religion and State.

Arguing for one of them, at a particular time or in a particular jurisdiction, is the genetic fallacy - arguing from origins.

The arguments today are different to those you propose.

Gary Bouma

Jews, like me, have lived in polities in which church and state were united.

Been there, done that, no wish to repeat the experience.

No, it's not only Christians, or even people of other religions, who have persecuted Jews. The Nazis, for example, were not Christians. Neither was Stalin a Christian.

But through the centuries Jews have been persecuted by Christian (and Muslim) states.

The doctrine of separation of religion and state did not come about from anything Jesus allegedly said. It came about because freethinkers, some of whom doubted Jesus' historicty, said ENOUGH!

I for one heartily endorse that sentiment.

BTW how many Christians and Muslims like living in Jewish controlled state?

When I first read this piece I thought it was a spoof.

Maybe it is.

Bottom line, I would resist being ruled by sharia be it of the Christian or Muslim variety.

Presumably Christian sharia would include:

--Outlawing homosexuality

--Banning abortion

--Banning the teaching of evolution – creationism in the classroom.

--Maybe banning birth control?

No thanks

Steven,
Assuming you'd be persecuted at all, who allowed the Jews back into England?
We wouldn't be dealing with a New Model Army, we'd be swamped by gurning Hillsong happy clappers and frumpy African Lutherans...the horror!

This is a conspiracy to corrupt the churches by involving them with the politics of the world.

Churches should be left to perform their original task alone, that which they are best at - religion: drawing people closer to God.

So thanks, Ahitofel, but no thanks!

stevenlmeyer, Wed 26 Oct, 11:04:53pm

It's not just the Jews that have been persecuted by Christians or Muslims: there have been plenty of other persecutions amongst these groups and more, including a degree of suppression of Muslims by Jews, too. You seem to acknowledge that when you ask - "how many Christians and Muslims like living in Jewish controlled state?"

I'm not sure what your motivation for mentioning Nazis or Stalin was. They are red herrings, yet are often misrepresented, especially when Nazi anti-semetism was the culmination of centuries of European anti-semetism and they invoked close relationships with favourable sections of the churches, including the Catholic church in Germany and the Vatican.

The photos on this page provide much testament - http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

Stalin was brought up in Orthodox schools and churches, even studying in a Seminary, so no doubt was christened. He invoked religion and the church in WW2, and there are claims he was privately religious throughout his later life.

Yuyutsu, Thurs 27 Oct, 5:26:24am -
Any "conspiracy to corrupt the churches by involving them with the politics of the world" is of their own making. The lobbying by various religious entities is well highlighted by them.
.

I suspect that by mentioning "the church" it is more of decency etc, rather than any espoused religion. The average price of homes in Australia today is $435,000 (seven times the annual workers wage of $65,000) and yet in 1977 the average price was $31,000 (twice the average annual workers wage of $15,000). They were relatively cheaper in the 1950-1970 era. It is hoped that the next government will get intelligent and reverse that trend and bring decency back to the working community.
The top tax now is 45%, in 1977 it was approximately 60% and in 1950-1970 it was 66.6%. A low top tax is actually detrimental to the economy and to the working people, when the tax is low, CEO’s and others increase their salaries, causing higher prices. What we want, is the decency advocated in beliefs of the Christan religon.

McReal,

No doubt there are corrupt clergymen of impure motives that promote things other than religion. The point is that Gary Bouma is suggesting to do it above board in a wholesale fashion.

I am a strong supporter of "render unto Caesar": Render unto Caesar what is his - and keep as far as you can away from him.

Ephesians 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBrmH2pCmyM&feature=related

Reuniting church and state. When ever I hear this thought of uniting the biggest con that man ever made, it makes me feel sick to my stomach that intelligent people still think the world was made by some higher being:)...But of course religious people have their right to worship thin air if that gets them off.....however get a free ride from the state which non-religious people pay for, and the state schools are bleeding the parents of non-believers and making life intolerable because the two are great bed-fellows, if you pardon the expression.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atTSwau9fwM&feature=related

See the rich have two faces, can you see which one you are?

CACTUS

I think this article has been somewhat misinterpreted in many of the posts on this thread - but that is reasonably understandable, given the somewhat confusing nature of the article.

However, my take on the essence of the article is based on its closing - "...nor does it give either the church or the state a zone of non-interference where either may do as it sees fit, free from accountability."

I find value in this closing statement, not as a suggestion that the church(es) should be more directly involved in politics, but that church(es) should be more proactive in resolving differences in their teachings, and working conscientiously to establish a common set of values and standards (of ethics, conduct, tolerance, understanding, compassion and morality) for the benefit of society as a whole. Such cooperation may be extremely difficult in a global context, but may be achievable in the Australian context, and might thus be a beacon, more telling than action on climate change, and potentially of wide significance to resolution of much of the causation of the worldwide refugee crisis. This may be drawing a very long bow, but from small beginnings....

By influencing greater societal stability, through a genuinely cooperative approach, religious groups would be doing a great service to humanity and concomitantly to the state. The potential also of a resultant combined voice to influence public policy for the betterment of society as a whole could be a bonus, if utilised wisely and sparingly.

There is so much competition, conflict and crisis in the world, it is surely time for a paradigm shift.

McReal wrote:

>>It's not just the Jews that have been persecuted by Christians or Muslims:....>>

In fact it's mostly been Christians persecuting other Christians and Muslims persecuting other Muslims.

Even today would you like to be an Ahamdiya, Shia or Sufi in Pakistan?

On the other hand there's still quite a bit of inter-religious (as opposed to intra-religious) persecution still going on. Think of the Copts in Egypt or Christians in Indonesia and Pakistan.

And both Islam and Christianity like picking on gays. Homosexuality is still a criminal offence in most Muslim countries and quite a few non-Muslim but devoutly Christian ones as well. The latter are to be found mainly in Africa.

Both Islam and Christianity have problems with scientific enquiry. If religion and state really are re-united expect to see the teaching of evolution banned.

I'm focussing on Islam and Christianity because they are genuinely two outliers.

--They are big. Islam accounts for one fifth of humanity.

--Unlike most religions - eg Judaism - they both proselytise aggressively.

<<--Unlike most religions - eg Judaism - they both proselytise aggressively.>>
Where I live there are at least three pentecostal Christian groups down at my local shopping strip every Saturday morning with their little stalls, one group has taken to using a loud hailer to tell us all where we're headed if we don't accept Christ's word.
There are loads of Muslims in the area but in eleven years I've never once seen them proselytising, they keep themselves to themselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASqJAT1W3r0&feature=related

Reuniting church and state:) I think its a great idea:)

I cant believe I share a world with some of you.....I really cant.

CACTUS

Religion should be a private choice. Once you reunite church and state, religious teachings become are forced on the entire population through legislation, and one's private choices about religion can make one a criminal. How can this possibly be regarded as a good thing?

Unfortunately Saltpetre these implications of the supposed 'benefits' of church interference such as religious interraction are nothing to an increasing majority of secular Australians who simply see one detrimental religious institute extending the fig-leaf to other detrimental religious institutes equally as incompatible with the needs of the people- who have yet to see a church policy that actually benefits them and their own rights- but rather the right of the church to force its morals onto everyone else at our expense.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12798#220970

runner, spot on, i call them the 1/2% who are also part of the problem, i dropped by their local branch http://occupybrisbane.org/ in my home town, found a nice young American http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism convert with a list of Muslim victims of oppression in Egypt, but NO mention of all the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Orthodox_Church_of_Alexandria who were being oppressed in Egypt?

i keep telling the communazis that "denial is not a river in Egypt" but there eyes always glaze over as they are "moving forwards" onto the next line of spinganda.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12798#220971

Jay Of Melbourne, absolutely Jay, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic is how our for fathers built Australia.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12798#220973

King Hazza, also true, i was raised a protestant christian & am constantly DISappointed in our church leadership, may form my own one day.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12798#220977

McReal, correct the evil religious cult of communazism has had its day, been proven wrong, its remaining "true believers" must be rehabilitated.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12798#220984
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12798#220985
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12798#221047

stevenlmeyer, are you familiar with this article?

http://www.savethemales.ca/000482.html written by a moderate Jewish "mensch" who is still jewish & proud of it, but honest about radical Zionism, which is just as big a problem as radical Islamism, Communazism & international banksters.

Some christian churches are against promoting GLBT lifestyle for the same reason as some Jews are against it, what it says about http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah in the OLD testament.

http://www.rense.com/general32/americ.htm have a look at all of it, but #24 to #28 in particular.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236# the PC, Thought Police from "1984".

When you look backwards with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight it is clear that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism was born out of slavery in Egypt & hey presto several centuries later, after they established their own sovreign nation in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire came along to colonise/enslave them again, which led to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity both religions clearly arising out of colonisation, slavery, oppression & protesting about that, struggling for freedom.

Mo-Hammered however, is without doubt a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_prophet no matter how "nice" some muslims may be, their cult, like communazism, is based on lies, from day one.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12798#221061

Jay Of Melbourne, http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/features/full-bred-aussie-with-a-longing-for-sharia-law/story-e6frg6z6-1225991941740 they are actively recruiting in our jails.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6U4c7Ldua2o&feature=related see where this leads?