Formersnag you write

'different churches have been right & wrong on the other issues you mentioned. corruption is the real problem with our churches, same as some of our political parties.'

so true however the more secular a person the more in denial they are of their own corruption. Look at those protesting in the streets at the moment. They are truely self righteous people who fail to see the plank in their own eye.

Ethics eh!
What about taditional Protestant ethics, temperance, humility, industry and frugality.
We all agree that "western" societies promote indolence, profligacy and intemperance, the antidote would seem to be a no brainer.
Why do you think Africans are currently so prized as workers?
Good old Puritan Christian values.
Work hard, live a modest and frugal life and you'll be one of god's elect.

Indeed Formersnag, I was aware of the religious groups lobbying that way in Switzerland too (naturally, Christian groups only make a big deal about how bad Islamic movements are, when there are no secularist/kemalist movements in sight- otherwise it shows that they clearly see themselves having more in common with other religious groups than with the people increasingly bailing out of their own churches).
It also does show that the churches really have fallen out of the mainstream of some societies and are unable to sway substantial votes on an issue.

...Professor Bouma exposes himself as an “Christian Political Exemplificationist”. A fundamental of Political relevance is credibility. An imperative to Political credibility is successful leadership of national affairs which exhibit unifying social benefits to society in total. Under the regime of secularism, society becomes marginalised by the alternative it offers to “God” worship; appendaged with its simplicity of aged and traditional moral path offered by Christianity.

...The Bible abounds with example of societal outcomes applicable to moral depravation, when holding no other personal guide in life than one based on self-fulfilling moral effacement, postured now in the West by the modern-day infatuation with Lassa faire Capitalism, with its obsession on greed; the new God which failed!

...The good professor posits himself in readiness of the inevitable moral renascence of the West. The inverse of success is religion to the masses. When 1% of the population of Capitalist economies possess 99% of the wealth, religion is the winner. It is a tradition and condition of the deprived, and is coming to a church near you!

Formersnag, Wed 26 Oct, 5:48:12pm

There are may reasons for separation of church/religion and State.

Arguing for one of them, at a particular time or in a particular jurisdiction, is the genetic fallacy - arguing from origins.

The arguments today are different to those you propose.

Gary Bouma

Jews, like me, have lived in polities in which church and state were united.

Been there, done that, no wish to repeat the experience.

No, it's not only Christians, or even people of other religions, who have persecuted Jews. The Nazis, for example, were not Christians. Neither was Stalin a Christian.

But through the centuries Jews have been persecuted by Christian (and Muslim) states.

The doctrine of separation of religion and state did not come about from anything Jesus allegedly said. It came about because freethinkers, some of whom doubted Jesus' historicty, said ENOUGH!

I for one heartily endorse that sentiment.

BTW how many Christians and Muslims like living in Jewish controlled state?