...The “gang banging” of lesbians in SA would be one of the more minor considerations for that country, a country which suffers from many and varied extreme social malaises. My advice to you would be to avoid visiting SA under your circumstances, especially if considering campaigning for the rights (?) of homosexuals.

...You enter a “fools-paradise” when embarking on a global campaign for universal acceptance of homosexuality as a normal function in any society.

Diver dan showing his/her true colours, condoning violence and murder towards others.

http://www.rape.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=875

Last time I checked, South Africa was the rape capital of the world,
with 1300 woman a day being raped. Perhaps it would be a good idea
to address all rapes and why they happen so commonly in South Africa
and not just the rape of lesbians.

diver dan: How is the raping and killing of young women a 'minor' concern in any country? I agree that South Africa faces a number of probems currently, but you are treading a fine line when you suggest that the rape of 10 women a day in Cape Town should be dealt with only after other problems are solved.

Yabby: You are certainly correct when you suggest that rape is a much broader problem in South Africa than what I wrote about here. Unfortunately, even if rape became non-existent there (which of course would be the ideal situation), lesbians would still be the target of serious discrimination and sexual harrassment - the theory behind corrective rape, after all, is to 'cure' lesbians of their homosexuality and/or to 'punish' them for it.

Diver dan you need a seachange in your attitudes. The type of crime commented on in this article is horrific. It needs to be addressed asap. We should be willing to grant women affected by this type of violence refugee status in Australia.

Absolutely disgusting. Does explode the myth that all cultures are equal. Back here at home we excuse some unsavoury stuff because we are afraid to challenge bad aspects of some culture.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12636#218432

Kate Walton, #1, given that feMANazis have been screaming about bogus crimes backed by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics on everything for half a century now, why should we believe you about this fairy tale?

#2, South African people should be dealing with THEIR problems in THEIR country, western nations, especially small ones like Australia should be minding THEIR own business. There is LITERALLY nothing practical we can do about anything happenning anywhere outside Australia, other than offer advice &/or education.

Everything the loony left has done to the third world since 1945 has been negative, for them as well as wasting our taxes creating poverty, if you want to continue destroying lives keep on meddling.

Formersnag,
One example:
Deaths in Police custody under Apartheid ran at about 80 a year, which is high but under Black rule they've skyrocketed to 860 in 2010 alone.
Self hating White people need to listen to decent Black people speak about themselves and stop listening to other self hating Whites:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdRDgXUgGAs

Here's another good site, anthropology as a science should involve everyone, it shouldn't just be Self Hating White people studying Brown people and romanticising them in order to ease White guilt:
http://zeroanthropology.net/about/

Kipp:

...Come on Kipp, I am attempting to save the poor girl from herself by offering sound advice.

...I really think that the well meaning kid she is, obviously lacks sound advise from those around her that should be discouraging her from the challenge of highlighting the global risks of lesbianism.

...I wonder to myself, why not a more worthy venture to invest life and energy into; starvation in Ethiopia for example, among so many other worthy causes calling for dedicated input that she is obviously capable of...

According to the site Yabby linked to, "A woman was raped in South Africa every 17 seconds. This did not include the number of child rape victims. It was estimated that one in every two women would be raped."

I believe the article Kate has presented is flawed due to its focus on corrective rape of women who express a preference for same sex relationships. Given the incredibly high figures for rape in the culture in question, it seems that a large number of lesbians would be raped purely because of their gender, not their sexuality.

Two major assumptions have been made: First, that the rapists have followed a logical, causal, decision making process leading up to the rape; and second that corrective rape was a cause rather than an excuse after the fact. I find both unlikely.

The issue here is rape, corrective rape is a terrible subset of rape crimes, but conflating identity politics with physical assault does the cause a disservice.

Diver dan we are all aware of your negative attitude towards gays and lesbians, so please save us from your shallow patronising comments.
You may be happy and self righteous in your safe box, and like most religous funadamentalists we are aware also that you are indifferent to the well being of others, unless they believe in the sky fairies!!

BRG: Thanks for your comments, and thanks for putting some analysis into them.

Your point is a good one, and it's a very valid one to raise. However, there is much evidence, both from victims and perpetrators of corrective rape, that the women's sexuality did play a major role in their rape.

For instance, from a 2010 article in the Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/12/eudy-simelane-corrective-rape-south-africa):

"The Guardian talked to lesbians in townships in Johannesburg and Cape Town who said they were being deliberately targeted for rape and that the threat of violence had become an everyday ordeal.

"Every day I am told that they are going to kill me, that they are going to rape me and after they rape me I'll become a girl," said Zakhe Sowello from Soweto, Johannesburg. "When you are raped you have a lot of evidence on your body. But when we try and report these crimes nothing happens, and then you see the boys who raped you walking free on the street.""

And from a recent BBC article (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13908662):

"Noxolo Nkosana, 23, is the latest victim of a series of violent attacks against lesbians.

She was stabbed a stone's throw from her home in Crossroads township, Cape Town, as she returned from work one evening with her girlfriend.

The two men - one of whom lives in her community - started yelling insults.

"They were walking behind us. They just started swearing at me screaming: 'Hey you lesbian, you tomboy, we'll show you,'" Ms Nkosana tells the BBC."

In almost all of the reported cases of corrective rape in South Afica, as well as in Uganda (which also faces a serious corrective rape problem), the victims have cited being verbally harassed regarding their sexuality before and during the rape.

The fact is, lesbians are increasingly being raped because they are seen by men as threatening their masculinity and thus their power. While I agree that rape in general must be dealt with urgently, we must also recognise that there are certain nuances here that require different ways of resolution.

FormerSnag Sweetheart, it was the capitalist system that looted the third world countries for their resources. Wars sweetheart, are about gaining land and resources, and by that theft from the people in those third world countries, is why you enjoy the lifestyle you do.
Now how about you say sorry and start giving back what you did not earn!!

Kate, I appreciate your intention, but I stand by my point.

I find your assertion that "lesbians are increasingly being raped because they are seen by men as threatening their masculinity and thus their power", to be bizarre. Born as a white anglo-saxon first world male (arguably among the least "masculine" of cultural male stereotypes) I see it as incredibly strange that you think a woman's choice of sexuality should be emasculate her male peers. It's like suggesting women see a man in Jimmy Choo's as a threat to their womanhood.

I do not think you are in a position to assert that this is the root cause of the problem. You are entitled to hold that personal belief if it suits you, but you shouldn't assert it as fact.

You have quoted research that "the victims have cited being verbally harassed regarding their sexuality before and during the rape." But I wonder what was the topic of harassment for the straight women being raped? I doubt their attackers were silent.

My assertion is that homophobic rape and other rape have a root cause that lies outside of sexual preferences. The basic perception that one person has a right to violate another person's body is the issue, sexuality politics is just another excuse as to why she was "asking for it"; It's no different to the short skirt defence.

The problem isn't that X person disagrees with Y sexual orientation (no pun intended), they can think what they like. Nor does is matter if X thinks Y is a slut. You cannot regulate or enforce opinion, nor should we hope to.

The problem is that some people feel like they have a right to perpetrate rape, everything else is adjunct to that.

Kipp,
QED, White guilt.
If I'd sat and done nothing instead of working all my life I'd have about the same standard of living as the average Third Worlder.
The spoils of "Capitalism" go to the capitalists,global capital is controlled by less than 150 companies/families,that's why everyone opposes it.
Lefty logic defies comprehension, anything goes as long as White children are punished for their Racism and the sins of their fathers.
Last time I looked Southern Africa was still suffering under the rule of ignorant, dumb Black Marxists, maybe you Lefties could take some responsibility for that?

KIPP:

...It is the cause Kipp, not the individual I oppose: That is the true and genuine meaning of my post.

...Homosexuals are misguided in efforts to high profile homosexuality. Thankfully, most homosexuals realise the dangers associated with such attempts. A classic example highlighting the dangers of high profiling the homosexual "cause", is the one described graphically in this article by Kate Walton; why such surprise when confrontation leads to the brutal murder of homosexuals?

...The simple truth is, universally, homosexuality is unacceptable.The worry is, obvious realities are blissfully ignored by an element of homosexuals on a campaign trail against prohibitions and exercising a loud voice to achieve set aims disguised as human rights issues.

...It is a human "birthright" to be homosexual, but not a right to attempt social engineering of the environment where this message is obviously unwelcome; especially SA.

Once again we are using our white anglo Western middle class mindsets to make judgements about an entirely different culture. Masculinity takes many different forms according to cultural norms. This is not new or surprising. Compare Middle Eastern attitudes to women and the West and issues like FMG. This is all to do with culture.

Why does resentment based gender/sexuality politics have to enter these debates even when the crimes are horrific. It is the criminal act that is despicable as well as the reasons behind it.

A sense of perspective would not go astray.

I'm not sure to what extent this is a real 'culture' issue. I do not think that pre-European South Africa had anything like the social problems that it has today.

South Africa from the time of slavery, colonisation and onwards to apartheid has long been a very troubled place. It is unsurprising that the violence of dispossession has lead to entrenched social dysfunction. Those problems were not going to magically disappear after apartheid stopped, and if anything, in the absence of an authoritarian state, crime was always going to get worse.

There might be a culture of violence and rape in South Africa now, but it does not reflect the 'culture' of thousands of years of African settlement in the region.

The real question is how do you get rid of a negative cultural practice? And how far are you willing to go to achieve it?

*There might be a culture of violence and rape in South Africa now, but it does not reflect the 'culture' of thousands of years of African settlement in the region.*

David, somehow I get the impression that perhaps you are not too
well informed about "African culture"

Redmond O'Hanlon wrote a great book called "No Mercy" about his
travels through the Congo and what he came across, it makes
for interesting reading.

Most white folk have no idea of the role that superstition, witch
doctors etc, play in African culture. But when people are sentenced
to 7 days jail for murder or the Bantu are debating wether the
pygmies are actually human or not and should or should not be
eaten the same as bush meat, the list goes on, it eventually
becomes clear that trying to enforce our culture on them overnight,
is not likely to be that successfull and no, you can't blame the
white man for all these cultural practises.

1. The Congo isn't South Africa.

2. Africa is made up of many different African peoples and cultures.

David, you did mention thousands of years of culture in the region
and if you check your history, you'll find that the Bantu tribes
which are in South Africa today, originated in Central Africa
and took over the land of the Hottentots and Bushmen.

So my point remains.

What about the Khosian people? The Zulu, Xhosa, Swazi, and Ndebele peoples? Are you saying that 'corrective rape' was a part of their culture? Where is the evidence for that?

David,
If you knew anything of history you'd know that Black Africans arrived in South Africa at roughly the same time as Whites, there are no "Thousands of years of history" and no disposession, they fought wars over posession of the land but both were immigrants.If you knew anything about the latest archaeological and genetic studies you'd know that there has been no evidence found for continuity between ancient and modern African populations, nobody knows how long the San and Khoi Khoi were there before the Blacks and Whites arrived and the "Black" Africans have only been around as a race for 6-10,000 years (at the most).
Your political views on race are not backed by facts.

Whites were in South Africa 170,000 years ago?

My opinions are backed up with facts from Wikipedia. I dare you to come up with a more authoritative source Jay.

I have no opinion on race other than that everybody should intermarry.

*The Zulu, Xhosa, Swazi, and Ndebele peoples?*

They are all part of the Bantu, which migrated from the North,
but today make up the majority of the population of South Africa.
Their origins are from Central Africa.

*Are you saying that 'corrective rape' was a part of their culture?*

No, I think on that one, BRG nailed it correctly, ie that its more
likely just yet another excuse rather then a cause. Unlike girls
who were raped by hiv infected males, when the superstition went
around that sex with a virgin would cure it.

The point is that given other cultural practises in Bantu regions,
most likely rape is not considered the great crime that our society
deems it to be. People do it because they can get away with it.

Before you start worrying about lesbians, you will seemingly first
have to convince Bantu males that rape is a serious offence.
With one woman raped every 17 seconds, clearly many don't think
it is.

David,
170,000 years? Who were these people? They definitely weren't Xhosa, Zulu or any of the other Bantu peoples. Do some reading, it's an abiding interest of mine and I'm always amazed at what amazing new information on human history is revealed.
Note I said history, not evolution.
Did you know that studies of the "Pygmies" have shown that their stature and intense pigmentation is not an adaptation to their environment, rather it most likely comes from their distant ancestors?
That throws a bit of a spanner in the "We's all Africans" theory promoted by Anti Whites such as yourself, my ancestors and those of the "Pygmies" were clearly very different.
Then there's the recent revision of the thinking on the R1b haplotype and the allocation of a new one, the Y chromosome V88 for most Black Africans, the provenance of which is at present unknown but is presumed to have resulted from a mid Holocene (ie recent) migration from Asia to Africa.
Given that the oldest proto Negroid remains yet found are only around 8,000 years old it's reasonable to theorise that "Black" Africans may have arisen from the union of darker skinned Asiatic men and African women, whatever they looked like in that era,
There has been no evidence found to date of continuity between ancient and modern African populations and as for the Black Africans very little is known about their past beyond about the early Middle Ages.

Not everyone is fit to discuss race, people who hold "Anti Racist" and those who hold racial "supremacist" views should be automatically excluded from such discussions.

"Rape is always about control, dominance, and the insubordination of women."

Maybe someone can help me with Kate's comment.
While I sympathise with the plight of those being raped, I have to ask how rape can occur if sexual desire is absent from the equation?
I've seen this "rape is all about control, dominance" before, but can never actually get an answer to my question.
The penis doesn't become erect unless aroused. An erect penis is required for penetration. So how can it be solely about power? I don't deny power plays a part, but logically it can not totally be the sole reason.

Aristocrat,
There's a pretty good treatise on the subject called "How dangerous men think",by Brent Sanders.
Poor impulse control is another issue here,don't forget that drug and alchohol use are just as much of a problem in S.A as anywhere else and particularly so in the Black communities.
Men get drunk, they fight, they rape women, crash cars and commit other crimes, Black men are no different to any other race when they get together and hit the sauce.

Aristo

When people started looking at rape from a feminist perspective, they read the accounts of female victims. Almost all of them say something like "I felt so powerless, I couldn't stop them". So rape is about power, to the victim.
The researchers then assumed that it must also be about power to the rapist. This fitted their stereotype of men being egotistical and controlling (the patriarchy theory). However, all of the research on rapists that I am aware of has refuted this assumption. It is ideology in the place of science.

Benk,
If you want an example of the gross stupidity of Feminists, Anti Racists and Leftists in general then read this:
http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/04/23/we-are-not-your-weapons-we-are-women/

What is the point of this discussion?

I was born in South Africa in 1945 and lived there till 1996. The Apartheid government was bad. The present ANC government is scarcely an improvement.

But at least it has some entertainment value – provided you’re not living there.

See:

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Zuma-takes-2-wives-to-US-20110918

Imagine if Gillard travelled to New York with such an entourage in tow!

How many women are raped on an average day in South Africa? It probably runs into hundreds.

I doubt anyone knows. Schoolyard gang rape goes by the slang term “jack rolling”. It is probably the most common crime in South Africa. As a lecturer at the University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg I heard female students describe their experiences (plural) of being jack rolled.

See:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/258446.stm

The linked article dates back to 1999 but I assure readers nothing has changed.

See:

http://www.citizen.co.za/citizen/content/en/citizen/opinion-columnists?oid=224341&sn=Detail&pid=146826&Crime-dips--but-it%E2%80%99s-rape-as-%E2%80%98normal%E2%80%99

At least reported murder rates are down. Whether that means actual murder rates are down is anyone’s guess.

What is the point of discussing whether rape is endemic to Southern African culture or whether it is a consequence of Apartheid or colonialism? I doubt either side can provide even a scintilla of evidence to support their point of view. I doubt whether either side can be converted even if some evidence is provided.

In the end it is what it is. And there is nothing anybody in Australia can do about rape in South Africa or in any other country.