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The Forum > Article Comments > Xenophon: attack the church - but not the man > Comments

Xenophon: attack the church - but not the man : Comments

By Brian Holden, published 19/9/2011

Xenophon doesn’t realise that the church is in a fight for survival.

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"Xenophon seems not to realise that the church’s behaviour is a desperate tactic in what it sees as a fight for survival. It will not change its 1700 year-old core policies, and it still has a few years left in it. All the Senator will achieve is to make one man’s life more miserable."

If Xenophon's crusade makes even one mother or father think twice before leaving their child in the hands of a priest, then it has demonstrated its worth. It doesn't matter that the Catholic Church is collapsing under its dogma: what matters is to get the innocents away and minimise the damage that it does as it comes down.
Posted by Jon J, Monday, 19 September 2011 7:03:37 AM
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Brian's shakey belief in the evolution myth is actually far more likely to dissappear than the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. His arrogant assumption that biology supports evolution is laughable. His quoting of Darwin who has been proven wrong many times over just shows the false premise he comes from. Every honest scientist knows evolution is but fantasy. Oh that's right 'the science is settled'Where have I heard that arrogance before?
Posted by runner, Monday, 19 September 2011 7:23:50 AM
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It's hard to think of the term 'Catholic Church' without associating it with child abuse, so successful has been the media's sustained attack.

It's pathetic that any government can't propose a member of the Church for any responsible position without howls of derision by the Victim Lobby.

Of course the Xenophon case has nothing to do with child abuse. Both parties were men. Xenophon named the alleged perpetrator without evidence, without testimony, without regard for the investigation by the Church and without the permission of the victim.

This is extraordinary stuff and worth the harshest condemnation by the public and the Senate Privilege's Committee.
Posted by Cheryl, Monday, 19 September 2011 8:18:34 AM
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Brian:

...Yours is a noble argument befitting for the benefit of the parlous reputation that trudges along behind the catholic priesthood. Your argument which postulates the value of good works outweighing the negative value of sin, as urgent and timely it may be, is unsustainable and hangs on the thread of logic which states that all criminals in society be forgiven for their crimes, based on the strength of previous good works and social contributions.

... Pedophilia is largely active throughout all society and cannot be excused by implication towards a pathology, and thankfully is not. What can be done though is to include in mitigating circumstances when judging the guilty, such as you highlighted, which stem from the uniqueness of the environment associated with the priesthood: The prime circumstance without doubt, is the trust in, and association of closeness, priests enjoy in the environs of children associated with pastoral care, acting as a priest.

...A flimsy argument Brian, but well written and an enjoyable read.
Posted by diver dan, Monday, 19 September 2011 8:44:31 AM
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What "evidence" can there be of allegations of rape that occurred over 40 years ago? Xenophon acted to protect the community from a priest where the Catholic Church had failed to act. He wrote an article for the Sunday Mail yesterday. Quotes from it are:

"In any event, it looks as though I could be facing, following complaints, a Senate Privileges Committee Inquiry. I'd welcome such an inquiry, because at least the Senate Committee processes are fair, speedy and transparent - unlike the way John Hepworth's complaints have been handled.

...I was even more surprised by claims by Archbishop Philip Wilson that the priest had not been stood down because the allegations concerned the rape of an adult, not the rape of a child.

An allegation of any kind of rape should be enough to warrant a serious investigation and the standing down pending the investigation. My preference is for anyone with information about any abuse to take it to the police, but John Hepworth wanted the church to deal with his claims internally, and that has to be respected.

But too many religious organisations seem to have drawn some comfort from the mistaken belief that they somehow control the process. That has to change.

Sexual abuse flourishes because people keep secrets they shouldn't keep.

Would I do it again? If the circumstances were the same, absolutely.

And I can't help thinking if this is how the Catholic Church in Adelaide deals with an Archbishop, Heaven help the rest of us."

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/ipad/xenophon-i-would-do-it-again/story-fn6br25t-1226139806916
Posted by michael_in_adelaide, Monday, 19 September 2011 9:23:14 AM
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To, "What are the chances of the Vatican accepting the principle of evolution by natural selection? There is no chance - as at no point in the millions of gradual steps in the evolution of humans can God have suddenly inserted the soul into a fertilised human egg deserving of eternal reward or punishment", the only possible response is, "Exactly!"

As the website "Catholic Answers" explains (with both Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur from 2004):

"Concerning human evolution, the Church has a more definite teaching. It allows for the possibility that man’s body developed from previous biological forms, under God’s guidance, but it insists on the special creation of his soul. Pope Pius XII declared that "the teaching authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions . . . take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—[but] the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God" (Pius XII, Humani Generis 36). So whether the human body was specially created or developed, we are required to hold as a matter of Catholic faith that the human soul is specially created; it did not evolve, and it is not inherited from our parents, as our bodies are."

Two items on the Vatican's "to do" list must be: first, to determine at which point in the ascent of man Adam and Eve existed — maybe homo habilis — and to change their depiction appropriately; and second, to engage with the certainty that no matter when it was, the first person to have been fitted out with a soul would have had soulless parents with no prospect of enjoying eternity in the company of their children.

Probably, Runner's is the only possible response.
Posted by GlenC, Monday, 19 September 2011 9:26:04 AM
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The Roman Catholic Church should allow Priests to marry as all other religions. There is nothing Christian about forbidding marriage. In fact Jesus encouraged marriage and the NT denounces thise that forbid marriage. Even the apostle Peter was married as Jesus healed his mother in law. Marriage would stop much of the homosexual behaviour of Priests in the RC Church, and their attraction to young vunerable men.
Posted by Philo, Monday, 19 September 2011 10:01:15 AM
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Thankfully, not even the Vatican are as nutty as runner. The current Catechism of the church states:
"159. Faith and science: "... methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are." (Vatican II GS 36:1) 283. The question about the origins of the world and of man has been the object of many scientific studies which have splendidly enriched our knowledge of the age and dimensions of the cosmos, the development of life-forms and the appearance of man. These discoveries invite us to even greater admiration for the greatness of the Creator, prompting us to give him thanks for all his works and for the understanding and wisdom he gives to scholars and researchers.... 284. The great interest accorded to these studies is strongly stimulated by a question of another order, which goes beyond the proper domain of the natural sciences. It is not only a question of knowing when and how the universe arose physically, or when man appeared, but rather of discovering the meaning of such an origin...."

TBC
Posted by The Acolyte Rizla, Monday, 19 September 2011 10:18:25 AM
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continued from above

In 2004 the International Theological Comission, then under the presidency of Cardinal Josef Ratzinger, issued a statement containing this paragraph:
"According to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted 15 billion years ago in an explosion called the 'Big Bang' and has been expanding and cooling ever since. Later there gradually emerged the conditions necessary for the formation of atoms, still later the condensation of galaxies and stars, and about 10 billion years later the formation of planets. In our own solar system and on earth (formed about 4.5 billion years ago), the conditions have been favorable to the emergence of life. While there is little consensus among scientists about how the origin of this first microscopic life is to be explained, there is general agreement among them that the first organism dwelt on this planet about 3.5–4 billion years ago. Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have descended from this first organism. Converging evidence from many studies in the physical and biological sciences furnishes mounting support for some theory of evolution to account for the development and diversification of life on earth, while controversy continues over the pace and mechanisms of evolution."

I put it to the author and others that the Vatican already accepts the principle of evolution by natural selection.

Also, Brian, I feel the need to point out the Church's teaching on sin and Hell. Committing a mortal sin does not necessarily lead to eternity in hell. If the sinner repents and gains absolution, they can still get into heaven. There is (as far as I know) only one mortal sin to which this does not apply, and that's suicide (obviously it's a bit hard to repent and gain absolution after you've topped yourself).

As a pantheist, I have no problem with you laying the boot into the church if you feel it is warranted. But as a nerd, I'd prefer you get your facts straight first.
Posted by The Acolyte Rizla, Monday, 19 September 2011 10:19:18 AM
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'According to the widely accepted scientific account, the universe erupted 15 billion years ago in an explosion called the 'Big Bang' and has been expanding and cooling ever since. Later there gradually emerged the conditions necessary for the formation of atoms, '

no wonder people treat pseudo science is looked at as a joke while many thinking people see design everywhere. Evolutionist sure do have faith.
Posted by runner, Monday, 19 September 2011 10:45:05 AM
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Wow, runner. I'm not surprised you think damn near every biologist in the world is wrong (and apparently the physicists to boot). But I am very surprised that you regard yourself as a more reliable theological expert than the most learned theologians of the Catholic Church - the largest Christian church in the world, and the only one with an even halfway legtimate claim to have being founded by the big fella, Jesus of Nazareth himself. Your hubris and narcissism is astounding.
Posted by The Acolyte Rizla, Monday, 19 September 2011 11:21:26 AM
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Senator Xenaphon's naming of the priest in question is an abuse of parliamentary privilege. In any case, it is aimed essentially at the Catholic Church.

The author fails to acknowledge that the incidence of priests engaging in paedophilia is very small, smaller than for the population at large, and that the overwhelming majority of those offending priests is homosexual. The actions of those priests does not reflect well on the Church, nor on the vast majority of priests who diligently carry out their pastoral duties. Bigots of course make it look worse by sensationalising.

Whoever quotes the Darwin hypothesis of evolution as proof for an argument, is being assertive and not scientific. The evolution asserters fail to explain how this evolutionary process is supposed to have originated in the first place in a sterile environment
Posted by Raycom, Monday, 19 September 2011 11:39:38 AM
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The Acolyte Rizla

'I'm not surprised you think damn near every biologist in the world is wrong (and apparently the physicists to boot).'

No just the consensus scientist that know quite well that human biology can only lead to one logical conclusion (design). Thankfully huge numbers who study have to tick the boxes at university and then go on to be doctors etc. Many of them worship their Creator because they have not been blinded by the dogma which makes no sense.

you also write

'But I am very surprised that you regard yourself as a more reliable theological expert than the most learned theologians of the Catholic Church - the largest Christian church in the world,

really! Do yourself a favour and find out what the word church means.
Posted by runner, Monday, 19 September 2011 11:56:11 AM
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Runner,

The vast majority of biologists accept the theory of evolution. It's possible you don't realise this because you only read the work of creationist biologists, but I assure you that creationist biologists make up a very small minority. Please also note that many of the biologists who accept the theory of evolution are Christian (Jewish, Hindu etc.) and, like the Catholic church, see no conflict between their religious faith and the theory of evolution.

From oxforddictionaries.com:
church: a particular Christian organization with its own clergy, buildings, and distinctive doctrines
Now, what was your point exactly? That the Catholic church is not a particular Christian organisation with its own buildings and distinctive doctrines? Fail. Do you always ignore reality when it gets in the way of your strange beliefs?
Posted by The Acolyte Rizla, Monday, 19 September 2011 12:55:46 PM
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Since the comments on this essay are now about the never-ending shouting match between scientism (as distinct from science as an open-ended method of free enquiry) and reductionist exoteric religiosity, why not check out this reference which give a unique comprehensive perspective on this topic;

http://science-and-religion.avatar-adida.org/index.php
Posted by Ho Hum, Monday, 19 September 2011 12:56:27 PM
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Raycom, Monday, 19 September 2011 11:39:38 AM

Yes, the current theories about cosmogenesis says the environment would have been sterile at one point, and yes there is much to find out about the start of biological life - abiogenesis (including those microbes that define non-sterile) - but they are separate issues to evolution and changes in the frequencies of alleles, from generation to generation, that defines evolution.
Posted by McReal, Monday, 19 September 2011 1:09:54 PM
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Unless you believe evolution has evolved homosexuality I suggest the "off subject" of evolution be left to another thread. If Catholic Priests homosexuality has evolved then they cannot help molestation to fulfil their sexual orientation and are not fully accountable for their behaviour.

However if you believe they were created male with full wilful decision then they are fully accountable for their sexual perversion.
Posted by Philo, Monday, 19 September 2011 1:51:02 PM
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...Goodonya PHILLO, that brings the discussion back on track: Further, I wonder aloud (While on the subject of homosexual Priests, which I believe is applicable to the article) Will the Catholic church allow Priests to marry their Homosexual lovers when Julia and Bob Change the marriage laws to include same sex couples? I hasten to add, this is not intended as a facetious or derogatory comment. I am a firm believer that all is possible within the homosexual lobby, and what a "coup d tart" such an event would be to the homosexual lobby if canon law were over-ruled on this issue!
Posted by diver dan, Monday, 19 September 2011 3:25:04 PM
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And of course "Runner" Jesus Christ is also a fantasy, the same as evolution,tell me where is the proof for either
Posted by Ojnab, Monday, 19 September 2011 4:42:17 PM
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Intelligent design evolved from the dogma of creationism as a natural selection response to the religious lobby's inability to rationally coexist homosapien and rhamphorhynchus.

Back to the point though: more power to the mighty Mr X.
Posted by Neutral, Monday, 19 September 2011 5:29:10 PM
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Let us not lose sight of the victims in this discussion. Note how the Religious continue to use distracting arguments of a scientific bent (no pun intended). The Catholic Church teaches that all people are given the gift of free will so they immediately lose the argument in the defence of their priests, paedophiles or perverts. Statistics from the SAVI report in Ireland (I think) states that a paedophiles sexual provilities in his lifetime will affect (shatter is my word) 77 lives. How many more are not speaking out against this vile man? Well done to the Senator. Perhaps Enda Kenny's Dail speech has created a backlash across the globe against this arrogant and bombastic church? I hope so.
Posted by childaware, Monday, 19 September 2011 9:18:56 PM
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Not to diminish the serious sin of the RCC but Please examine the Jehovah's Witnesses who go door to door and come on our property.

Jehovah's Witnesses pedophiles.
Many court documents and news events prove that Jehovah's Witnesses require two witnesses when a child comes forward with allegations of molestation within the congregation. Such allegations have customarily been treated as sins instead of crimes and are only reported to authorities when it is required to do so by law, (which varies by state).

It has also been shown that child molesters within the organization usually have not been identified to the congregation members or the public at large. These people engage in a door to door ministry, possibly exposing children to pedophiles.

The Watchtower corporation has paid out millions in settlement money already.
-- Danny Haszard abuse victim
FMI
www.dannyhaszard.co
Posted by DanielHaszard, Tuesday, 20 September 2011 7:53:52 AM
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What a disingenuous article. I was the journalist who published the story referred to by Mr Holden shortly before the visit of the Pope for World Youth Day.
Mr Holden conceals exactly the same information that George Pell did and which formed the focus of that story.
The facts are:
i)the priest involved admitted offences against not one (as Mr Holden states) but at least two victims, one of them of a very young age.
ii)the offenders were both severely damaged by the assaults
iii) suggesting George Pell was "clumsily involved in the cover up" understates the case. For example Cardinal Pell told one victim he was the only known case, when he knew the opposite was true.
The victims and their advocates have every right to play the man, especially as the church consistently blocks accountability as an institution. It can't even be sued!
Above all though, for Brian Holden to suggest that a lifetime of otherwise good works by a priest somehow should be weighed against the damage caused by his sexual abuse shows a total lack of understanding of the extent of the consequences of those attacks.
Educational failure, drug and alcohol abuse, repeated collapse of intimate relationships and self-described chaotic lives are but a few of the symptoms faced by victims. The men who wrought this deserve to be played.
Posted by TP, Tuesday, 20 September 2011 10:00:19 AM
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TP,
The question needs to be asked; Why do celebant Priests do that? I know of many people who have been sexually abused by parents, relatives or friends and the long term affects are equally damaging. The whole problem within society needs to be dealt with; much stems from sexual overexposure within society, or the lack of legitimate sexual intimacy.
Posted by Philo, Tuesday, 20 September 2011 10:47:46 AM
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