Saltpetre,

The transcendence in joining as a social holon or becoming a follower of religion, is purely a transcendence of the "self" - it's not a transcendence over man's baser behaviours....and often a collective mentality is more likely to justify them.

Dear Poirot,

"When I speak of transcendence, I'm referring to the psychological act of transcending the physicality of our material state - our earthbound reality as a human animal. This is achieved through art and religion, but also through the identification we find in integration within group structures."

I suppose that this last technique of grouping has its merit as it can help some people to shift their human-animal centeredness, but it's only an aspirin because now those people will instead be stuck in a different set of genetic tendencies rather than solve the ultimate problem of identification with matter.

"We are social creatures like other mammals,"

Our bodies are and our minds follow, but it has nothing to do with us: YOU are not a creature!

"yet for us it is not only physical security we seek, but also intellectual succor from shared beliefs and ideals."

Which one could, if diligent enough, trace down to genetics just the same: the intellect to man is like jaws to the lion and camouflage to the chameleon.

"The feeling of sharing beliefs and destiny takes us beyond our lone feeling of human frailty - we lose ourselves amidst a greater purpose. We break the bonds of purely physical reality by psychologically transcending our own meager physical interests to enjoin in "spiritual" or "ideological" oneness with others."

The warm tribal camp-fire and the comfort in numbers can be captivating, but has nothing to do with spirituality.

pericules all i needed from you is the name
of the first 'life'..[plus what evidence]

mate i have been asking for a long time

i once thought i knew...
till i asked myself..ok what logiclly
could have been this first life..that only needed chance..[lol]..to begin living..

and chance is all science can offer
but please put up something

i will yet again repeat other things
[how i think it may logiclly havwe happend]

if you reply my speculation
[or fail to offer your naming of how/what/when]

its clear you too are unsure..
but to deney the great good/god
his true due..how pathetic would that be..

lets try to re-educate by best guess
till the true facts emerge...so fools wont judge themselves too harshly..for trying to cut god out of recognition of his labours.

we hear much from our older cultures how god made the beasts
[as god gave each..the body to match their nature]

i see god in everything...sustaining every life its living
you know the info going on within a single cell is more than any super computer can handle..[yet still blindly think chance covers it]

of course we also got them nutters saying alians done it
[so how did alians do it..back to chance?]

its a great shock to realise..science has never witnessed
aNY genus evolving into other genus...has no record or proof...cant replicate it..[thus violates the rules that would accord it science staus]

mate im one who needs to know how why etc
as far as i go..is eliminate the un/science
and whatever is left..must be the best answer..at this time

you may ignore naming the first life
so please present the first evolution..

[what gave birth/hatched from what..[by what proof?]

often people will say what made god
how i have it in my mind is we ....WE..!
began material reality with the big bang
but god pregsists..all the previous big bangs
being spirit not flesh

how i see the uni=verse is in a continual big bang...big collapse
expantion/collapse...on infinitum..

Ok, one under god.

>>pericules all i needed from you is the name
of the first 'life'..[plus what evidence]<<

Why would you assume that I would know, even if I understood the question? I am not an archaeologist, nor an anthropologist, nor a geologist, nor an evolutionary biologist, nor even a cosmologist.

What does interest me is the progress that these folk make on the journey to a greater understanding of how we came to be. I read books and articles, marvelling at the intellects that are deployed in the search, even while knowing that they have Buckley's chance of reaching a conclusion.

It does puzzle me, though, why some folk believe this activity is pointless.

There is a mass of information out there that provides clues to how it all began, and how we have evolved over millions of years. There is none whatsoever that supports the idea of a supreme being. There are of course the believers, who accept (as you do) that "faith" and "belief" are required, in the complete absence of hard evidence. But that is an emotional, not a rational reaction.

Or perhaps not, entirely. There is a ton of research also on why humans are prone to religious belief, despite the lack of evidence. Many have come to the conclusion that it is an evolutionary response (now there's irony for you!) to a need for reassurance, or certainty.

So it is reasonable to conclude that the concept of God is totally rational. But from an evolutionary standpoint only, in that it is a phase we are going through. In another few thousand years, we might evolve out of it.

Or not, if it continues to deliver value. That's the way it works.

with the fruits of spirit..[materialism/uni-verse]..
beginning all over again..with each new big bang..

think of it..as god may..

no matter how nice..you are
others calling you names...saying your hard work...is by accident/fluke/alians/chance

much like saying..*these words
are assem*bling themselves

with the inteligensa of materialism
blaming *you..[true life sustaing good]..for every bad thing
plus..doing cccrap..in your name

think how wrong thinking/thiests must hurt god
worse than ignorant athiests..

ignorantly ignoring
to see the best..no/thing..
[not thing]..good[god]..spiritus
sustaining life/light/logic into love

[the one true good/god..who is so amasing
only he alone knows how great thou art]

but see..how even the greatest can be bought low
like..a huh?-man/being..bought low
by a microscopic/contagin..

[like a lowlife bateria..in human form/
yet it TOO..is sustained to live..by gods will alone]

even god wearies
of all this negativity..he not only created
but sustains..to live

as god looses his will..[faith/belief/trust?]
or maybe when we finaly get it all together...TOO

the big bang expantion stops
and the big implosion begins...
[coming to gether spiritually...means the divisive materialistric must reflect..[materially/physiclly]..that spirit cause*s

[think of the material weight of the universe]..
collapsing in upon itself...

far more powerfull..[in its reversing motion]..
[materially speaking]..
than the *attraction of mass..within a black hole..

anyhow all matter condenses
into the relitive space..*of a fullstop[.]
without so much as a wimper

and then...a final *change of state
[or pre materialistic/stasis]..out of time..
and eventually god*..yet again..needs to see the light...BANG*..

division/derision
materialism begins 'again'..with a bang

[and god sees yet again..the light
is good]..

[that's how god
knows it all*]
play it again sam

in time..other life emerges..[as we reveal our true natures
as god gives..the spirits*../angels/demons..material form
to explore this..*new materialistic learning center..

[and material prison]..
spirit made flesh/embodied..[in body]

where those..*not having 'earned heaven..
but..yet..not deserving of hell

HERE 'we'..may serve out our..life sentance..
[in sentanance]

thinking hoping..expecting..
this time:..it will be different

of course it isnt...
each molicule returns
to the same relitive place/time/space..
[its place*..in the sceme of things]..

and we get back to
this moment..in time

NAME this first life*
name what it evolved into*...

continues
..in 8 hours

Pericles,

Good points. We agree on much.

On Faith- I didn’t present my definition as an “inconvertible truth”, I simply presented it.

I accept that there are different definitions of faith, and I have no problem with the idea that depending on which definition you use, there may be plenty of people who don’t have “faith”. My point is simply that, in a broad sense, using a broad definition, everyone does have faith.

On Stories- Yes, I agree that “stories” can mean anything. This is another wide ranging term (Much like “Faith” and “Evidence”), and therefore a story could actually be complete fiction or it could be a thoroughly historical account of true events. Obviously, if it can be established that said story is historically accurate then it can serve as evidence.

In the case of Jesus and his life there are plenty of independent sources all combining to give us much of the same core information, so there’s a strong historical case to be made that we can be pretty much certain of certain things about him.

AJ,

I’m waiting.

How about “Trav, I’m sorry”, followed by “The evidence suggests that my accusation about you was wrong”