Hey Shockadelic,

I've rethought my glib response to you before. It'd be better to use one of ACL's ridiculous "arguments" right back at you and see how inconsistent you are. Here...

JJ said: "Children of parents who don't want their children taught fairy tales as though they are true are forced to DO NOTHING."
shockadelic said: I used the library or playground to study when I was young. I doubt anything's changed (except some people's attitudes to SRI).

Given that you think library and playground time to study is beneficial, surely you must agree that offering playground study time to only some students disadvantages those children who choose to attent SRI?

After all, the ACL opposes Ethics classes on the grounds that it would disadvantage children who attend SRI (presumably because they won't be learning any ethics - haha!)

Dug "Every child should understand christianity, they should also understand and have a working knowledge of Islam Judaism Hindu Buddhist and atheism."

Why? What significant role has Islam (other than as violent invaders) or Eastern religion had on our civilisation?

+=+=+=+

What indeed has Islam given us Well the first thing that comes to mind is "Zero"
The concept of Zero that we base modern maths on was developed by Muslim scholars, We use an Arabic Numeral system rather than a Roman one Imagine trying to work a modern society using XVii numerals ?

During the dark ages in Europe Muslims kept alive the philosophy of the Greeks they developed advanced geometry, algebra, maths, medicine, astronomy, and other sciences.

It is BECAUSE this is not taught in schools that most people ( LIKE YOU ) are ignorant of how much of our modern society is built on discoveries made by Muslims.

May I suggest you read a copy of The House of Wisdom by Jonathan Lyons that goes into detail on this very subject.

Christianity is based on Judaism how can you understand Christianity without an understanding of Jewish law and custom ?

Many of the teachings of Jesus were predated by similar ideas written in Eastern philosophy and religions like Buddhism and Hindu mysticism.

Zoroastrians was the first of the monotheist faiths how can you discuss modern religious beliefs without a working knowledge of how this developed ?

Our children live in a world of variety they will travel to different countries and encounter different religions and cultures.

How irresponsible would it be if we let our children leave a modern education system as ignorant and ill equipped as you obviously are to deal with these cultures.

Just imagine if they left school and thought the 1.6 billion muslims were all "violent invaders" and nothing else

Imagine if they left school and like you not only did not grasp the concept of but could not even spell "Civilization" A Civil society of people living together.

Would you have our kids grow up as ignorant as you are ?

Yes, Marantha, by all means let's contrast the kind of class a trained, professional teacher might give with the scintillating excitement of an SRE class taught by a volunteer. Here's an excerpt from a transcript of an SRE class taken by a supervising teacher:

“The classroom teacher remarked that while these kids were normally quite well behaved, they were almost a polar opposite during the scripture class.” Control and interest was only maintained by the Scripture teacher handing out chocolates and lollies to the children – the reason, the teacher speculates, that most of the children chose to attend the class.

Transcript begins:

Handed out chocolates first.
Handed out scrap paper, kids to write nickname and class.
Then started setting up computer.
Questions on board to copy down
* nickname – explain
* what do your friends think of you?
* what does your family think of you?
* how would you describe yourself

Showed slideshow of famous people, kids to write a single word describing what they think of each person.

Very poor control of the class – kids screaming out constantly.
Then asking kids to consider “what we say about others, compared to what god says about us”.

Started playing ‘celebrity head’ ...

Then said no matter how else others think of us and describe us ‘the only thing that doesn’t change is what god thinks of us’.

Wrote down numbered list of possible sources of her own opinion of herself – god first, then husband and kids, family, friends, sport. Says she’d be up and down if she relied on other people, so “that’s why I rely on god for my opinion about myself”.

... Pushed the “whole new way of living” Jesus brought, that it’s important to not worry about what others think, but “to care about what the Creator thinks”.

Showed a video of a guy rapping about “how great god is” and that all the problems in his life are solved by the presence of god in his life.

... Finished with choice of watching remainder of movie [Napoleon Dynamite] or playing marshmallow game."

""I realise that many do want religion taught objectively, but I am also acknowledging that many don't want it taught at all, and this is often because they perceive that a proponent of one view will do more harm than an impartial surveyor of mere knowledge."

Posted by Maranatha, Thursday, 5 May 2011 8:22:03 PM

You are just 'muddying the waters', or 'poisoning the well'
.....................................

"Yet dispassionate presentation of data is no fair advertisement for the value of religion which is an essential component of any teaching of it."

You are just 'special pleading' for indoctrinating.

..............................
"I wouldn't ideally want my kids to learn 'art' or 'science' theoretically without a trained practitioner being able to show them from their first-hand experience how and why to appreciate these subjects."

Nobody can *make* anybody appreciate anything. *You* make that point when you then say

"I think we can all relate to boring history teachers who do little to inspire kids regarding the value of their subject, yet a passionate teacher of history will inevitably risk conveying a particular viewpoint or slant ... "

We don't want 'slants".

" ... and with little real harm done - I know which I'd value more!"

But it's not all about you. This highlights a key issue with those pushing the narrow one-religion SRI agenda - self-centredness; a lack of consideration for others; a lack of empathy.

Education has gone from imparting knowledge and superficial understanding to higher ordered thinking including evaluation, appraisal, etc as components of a deep-approach to learning to deal with reality, such as the reality the Bible may be fiction.

Check out Marton & Saljo's "Concepts of Learning", or the "SOLO Taxonomy", or "Bloom's Taxonomy".

http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/deepsurf.htm

http://www.learningandteaching.info/learning/index.htm

Maybe, Chrys, the CRE teacher in question could have been better treated, being a guest speaker, and offered more support precisely because they were not trained. Not many other visiting speakers would be expected to offer their services without such assistance. Herein lies a real, though understandable, bias. However, it would be hoped that most CRE teachers come not to impose, but to add value to the all-round education of students. I suspect that you could have cited a more successful example. I can think of many trained teachers who are poor classroom managers, too, and many non-trained teachers who are gifted communicators. I, myself, am an experienced teacher, qualified in many subjects, yet found that when visiting a school as a CRE teacher, the job was much harder. Many kids were predisposed against my class because of negative parental influence and their own predetermination that my material was nonsensical. Although I don't begrudge this, these kids would not even try to wrestle responsibly with what I adamantly believe to have been creatively, objectively and sensitively presented material about faith and religion, its reasoned defence, and its practical application to everyday life.

I am just going to leave this here.

http://www.godless.biz/2011/05/04/warding-off-christianity/