Houellebecq et al,

Many 'secularists' are happy to have general religious education (GRE) given in structured *Humans in Society* courses (or similar) and many even want that.

Many 'secularists' are happy for SRI/SRE to continue as long as they can have alternative program/courses, such as Humanism; Philosophy & its components - principally Ethics & Logic; GRE; Anthroplogy; etc. as electives.

Many 'secularists' are frustrated by these being thwarted. By manipulation and control by religious politicians (eg Martin Dixon), and religious lobbying, by entities like the ACL, and the powerful churches, with their staff & $$$ resources.

Many parents are frustrated by the way their kids are thwarted by opt-out, by seeing kids frequently manipulated by lollies and sweets, by the control that one religion has.

Society is reaching a tipping point with this, in terms of more people losing faith; by the advent of electronic media, like blogs like this, providing a vehicle; and the increasing desire for more democracy in sub-societal entities like educational institutes such as public education departments; and increasing desire for freedom of belief, which ironically encompasses freedom of religion.

A key point is the religious do not realise they are "poisoning the well' for themselves by not giving space - freedom - to people of other belief systems. The situation will move so far past 'the tipping point' that they will, figuratively, eventually have a huge cannon ball running down a ramp at them.

@Houellebecq

Sudden? It's only in the last decade that folks have begun realising they can reject supernatural nonsense without repercussion. They have always been there - but ran real risks of persecution should they dare state the Emperor has no clothes.

The current objections, now that we can speak up without fear, are twofold -

1) the christian lobby is making a last stand and digging itself into trenches to maintain their self-proclaimed god given right to poison the minds of ALL children, not just their own. The Jesuits know the importance of this to protect their racket full well - "Give me a child until he is seven and I will give you the man". Now just imagine the Labor Party doing that with their party manifesto? I see no difference.

2) The vast sum of money being squandered on unqualified lay preachers. It is in the hundreds of millions. And these folks are predominantly from the charismatic churches - those who's fringes still handle snakes and want Old Testament law and punishment restored.

Everyone is blaming this on the secularists - when it is clearly a power grab by the christian lobby. People are trying to halt this coup before its too late. Stop blaming the ordinary mums and dads that don't want their children coming home terrified of imaginary hells.

Houellebecq, four things have changed.

Firstly, Australia continues to become far more secular. Most people, regardless of identifying 'nominally' with a religious organization in the Census, are not religious and don't want their children exposed to doctrines which don't accord with their own secular, modern, liberal values.

Secondly, the people teaching religion in schools are are not the relatively harmless, moderate Christians of our youth. These people come primarily from the fundamentalist, pentecostal, conservative Baptist or conservative Catholic churches. They

Thirdly, the amount of money being poured into the chaplaincy program is astronomical - and tax-payers are sitting up and taking notice. Currently, the ratio of trained counsellors to kids is around 1:1500 at best and far worse in some states and territories. It is clear that one has been sacrificed to supply the other.

Finally, the aggressive political intrusion of fundamentalist groups like the Australian Christian Lobby is becoming more widely known. Australians aren't stupid. They can see that a divisive group which stands for values antithetical to those of most Australians is not only having an undue influence on our government, they are instrumental in foisting those same divisive, intolerant 'values' upon our kids - and finding ways to circumvent parents' efforts to keep them opt their kids out.

We know that kids are being bribed with lollies and presents, and enticed with other activities into having contact with the religious functionaries at their schools. We know they're encouraged to nag their parents into letting them go on camps - at which the restrictions on proselytising do not apply.

We know that kids (and parents) are fooled into trojan-horse Christian programmes like Shine and Strength. We have the evidence these programmes are set up to bring unchurched kids to Jesus. We know that 'opted out' children are put in scripture classes - or made to feel so ostracized that their parents finally relent. We also know that young children are often put in SRE without their parents' knowledge.

We know this because parents, teachers, students and even former RI teachers are speaking out.

That is what has changed.

The hysteria of many surrounding CRE and chaplaincy seems to resemble a prejudice toward religion that is based upon its worst excesses, without regard for the fact that the worst of human nature is found in all walks of life, anyway. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater may mean that, in this disconnected generation so often devoid of mentors, we end up needlessly discarding the good that is done on account of the harm that is feared. Chaplains holding a personal religious persuasion are required to avoid any proselytising, and CRE instructors are similarly accountable for operating within authorised guidelines. Where specific religious instruction is conducted, the delivery is surely no more offensive than the presentation of the subject matter routinely delivered in English classes (often with greater bias and more deliberate values inculcation). When our census reveals that 2/3 of the population still purports to believe in the God of Australia's Christian heritage, it is a little hard to see sufficient justification for rejecting any objective presentation of the foundations of that faith.

Interesting question Houlley.

Further to the response by Chrys Stevenson perhaps it also comes from ever growing demands on the public purse.

Many people watch as essential services are reduced while funds are directed to fluffy projects that don't really offer a broader service.

When school-based Chaplaincy was offered and religious groups continue to enjoy tax benefits even for profit making enterprises the pressure builds.

It is not about restricting choice only asking that one's personal choices are just that, schools are not recruiting grounds.

It is never just one thing.

Marantha, enough with the sophistry. See Chrys's post above. You are reciting the apologist "how to" cheat sheet - what you are saying has no basis in what is actually accuring and is, YET AGAIN, accusing the secular of hysteria. You are regurgitating propaganda from behind a mask of reasonable egalitarianism. Please stop. You sound like a professional shill.

Also stop recycling this - 2/3 *may* have checked xtain on their census forms out of sheer laziness, but more than 9/10 never set foot in church outside of christmas, weddings and funerals. Time for a reality check.