Dear Danielle,

I like camels, though I'd probably be afraid to come too close and be bitten or kicked by one. Something that I do miss from the middle-east though is porcupines, they are so sweet!!

I don't hate Jews - I pity them. I think they are victims, trapped in a dangerous cult that screws up their mind. There are some nice traditions in Judaism, but their biggest problem is the Jewish-identity thing and so many of the Jewish customs are sadly infused and tainted by that exclusive identity.

How can I be indifferent when my family is caught up in this war between Jews and Arabs? I am certainly upset on this thread because David Singer places the interests of the Jews above those of my family, the real people who actually live in that area, who were born there and should just be able to live their lives having nothing to do with either the Jewish or the Arab/Muslim toxic ideologies.

Hate Arabs and kiss King Abdullah's feet?... I actually admired his father. I am also currently eagerly watching the news because I care for the poor Libyans and wish they are able to throw out their dictator. I also have Arab friends here in Australia. No, there are certainly very good Arabs, I only hate those who want to kill my family. I think that's understandable: both my parents were, even as innocent civilians, extremely close on more than one ocassion to being killed by Arabs.

Dear Yuyutsu,

LOL. Yes in a sense we are acting like old women but being still happily married to my school yard sweetheart any discussion about former love affairs would be rather brief, on my part at least.

My apologies for being tedious, and you're right in a way that the current topic does not have much relevance to the situation today, but could I invite you to give a little thought to what is being played out here besides the testosterone factor (I didn't want to take us from old ladies to rutting bulls but David and I have locked horns before).

It is also about veracity. We are both aware if just one of our substantive arguments has its legs cut out from under it then the whole house of cards hits the deck. That is what makes this interesting. David has done his cruciate and medial and is tottering but needs just a little shove (what is it with me and mixed metaphors?).

David has retreated from my challenges several times by switching the argument and attacking on a fresh front. One can only keep this up for so long. He partially 'resigned' before but has returned for more.

There is other rather selfish consideration. The discussion, at least for a little while, has been drawn away from what happened to the Fogel family. I, along with I suspect many others, remain distressed by the tragedy and its subsequent exploitation.

Finally through research I have had several of my notions about the formation of Israel realigned. That can't be a bad thing.

So please excuse me giving the 'rotten rat' at least one more kick.

Dear Danielle,

I will read your references though instead of trading quotes on how populated or advanced Palestine was or wasn't(which I can supply if you like) I am more interested in why people think it is so important. If they consider their cause is just then why is it an issue?

Dear David,

This is not a court room where you can cut a witness off after a single word. You got your 'Yes' or 'No' answer as one word standing alone in its own sentence. If you are distressed I went on to explain my answer more fully then go and complain to a judge. Again, I stand by my statement.

Other forum readers, if they can be bothered, might speculate on why you are so insistent that nothing accompany my answer.

Now some free advice, be very careful where you go from here because by answering 'No' you literally :) don't have a leg to stand on. My advice would be a strategic withdrawal.

Through your posts you have gracefully left many droppings for us to examine like;
“So what was Herbert Samuel the first British High Commissioner for Palestine doing in Palestine in June 1920? Wasn't he sent there to put into effect the decision of the San Remo Conference held three months earlier?”

The San Remo Resolution did not even prescribe which Mandatory authority who was to rule over Palestine. Remarkably Samuel was the first Jew in 2,000 years to rule over the historic land of Israel. However leaving that aside his appointment even then was deemed illegal by the military government.

“Samuel's appointment to High Commissioner of Palestine was controversial. While the Zionists welcomed the appointment of a Zionist Jew to the post, the military government, headed by Allenby and Bols, called Samuel's appointment "highly dangerous". Technically, Allenby noted, the appointment was illegal, in that a civil administration that would compel the inhabitants of an occupied country to express their allegiance to it before a formal peace treaty (with Turkey) was signed, was in violation of both military law and the Hague Convention.” Wikipedia

You're the lawyer, were they right?

#csteele

What I got from you was a qualified "yes"- which you have made clear will not be changed. That is your prerogative of course.

It is also my prerogative to reject it as unsatisfactory and to end any further correspondence between us.

Dear David,

Strategic withdrawal it is then. Wise move.

I would have preferred a checkmate but a resignation will do, however it is dressed.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I understand completely from where you are coming.

Many years ago I divorced myself from Catholicism, indeed Christianity. The gospels don't stand up to scrutiny. That Jesus existed, undoubtedly; a Jewish teacher or rabbi, possibly ... but Paul was determined to start on new religion ... Jesus' own famiy considered Paul insane, as indeed Paul noted. However, this is something for an entirely new thread.

You mention that rabbis will never see you as other than Jewish. Well ... the Catholic church will never see me as other than Catholic; a lapsed Catholic, but a Catholic nevertheless. And priests can be relentless in 'bringing one back to the faith' ... especially if they find a lapsed Catholic in extremis. In their eyes, the only way I could be severed from the church would be if I was excommunicated. But even Hitler wasn't excommunicated.

I also see much that is admirable about Christianity, although the fundamentalists, like Jewish fundamentalists, can be horrific. I imagine that fundamentalism in all religions, attracts a certain psych ... If it wasn't channeled into, and "sanctioned" by the name of "religion" (and basically any world religion would do), it would be the stuff of psychiatric wards and medical journals.

Do you know that we have porcupines in Australia? I wonder if they differ, and by how much, from those found in the Middle East.