#csteele

I don't consider you have answered my question.

I would ask you to once again answer "Yes" or "No" to my question which is:

If you believe the Mandate did not come into effect until 29 September 1923 do you still stand by your earlier statement:

"You know as well as I do that the Transjordan Memorandum separated the areas controlled by the British into Palestine and Transjordan well before the British Mandate came into effect"

Is it really that hard for you to pen a one word reply - either "Yes" or "No"?

Dear Csteele,

"I still hold the Jewish culture and its gifts to the world in very high esteem."

By all means do so, go ahead and select the positive aspects of the Jewish culture - by now those gifts belong to the whole world. There is no need to identify with any specific group to be entitled to use them.

And thank you for the sympathy.

Dear Danielle,

"I re-state my belief that Jews need a homeland, and an associated voice on the political stage."

What about the green-eyed people then? Bad luck and persecution can fall on anyone's head.

"If Israel wasn’t a Jewish homeland, do you really think it would attract such malevolent interest... Where is there the constant barrage, amount of media, and level of condemnation of other, by far worse situations?"

It is better to be hit by sharp words than by other sharp objects. Others like the Tutsis, Sumalis and Bosnians were not hit by sharp words, but Israel (and the USA) is hit by words because fortunately it is militarily too strong to end up like the rest.

BTW, Jews are not exempt from the tendency to use sharp words against others. Many Jewish communities do desreve sharp words because they themselves use sharp and derogatory language toward those who are not Jewish, for example by calling them "Cha'tes" (with gluttural "ch"; a hybrid word somwhere between "sinners" and "animals").

At a school-staff AGM:

Principal: "Ladies and gentlemen, before embarking on the heavier side of this evening, I am proud to announce that we have some cakes to distribute".

Arts Teacher: "There has long been inequality of genders which must be corrected, therefore the women-teachers should receive more cakes".
Physical-Education Teacher: "Those who sweat at their job, like me, and spend more calories, should receive more cakes".
Physics Teacher: "Those who work their brains spend just as many calories".
Biology Teacher: "Pregnant teachers have two lives, hence they deserve to receive double the number of cakes".
Sociology Teacher: "Why should children inside the womb receive their portion but not those who already disembarked? Let all children of teachers be counted!"
Math Teacher: "The cakes should be divided in proportion to the square-root of one's weight divided by the logarithmus of one's fat-percentage".
History Teacher: "Cakes should only be distributed among the working-class: those teachers who vote for the Liberals are capitalists and deserve no cakes".
English Teacher: "Let everyone write an essay explaining why they believe they are entitled to cakes, then let the cakes be distributed in proportion to the marks".

Cleaner enters: "Sorry guys, my son has just eaten all the cakes!"
--- --- ---

David and Csteele, looking at your drawn argument, long-as-the-exile as the Jews say, like two old ladies whose boat capsized who 80 years later are still sitting on the same deserted island under the same palm tree discussing their former love-affairs, is just like watching the above AGM:

Whatever happened 90 years ago when none of us was yet born, matters like fighting over a dead rotten rat. Since then, several new generations were born and two new nations emerged and took over the area of Palestine: first the Israelis and later the Palestinians.

Fighting over a 90-year old cake, long eaten by the birds?

Dear Yuyutsu,

Agreed.

I thought I clarified this. Other peoples are suffering far greater than the Palestinians ... Darfur ... etc.

But the condemnation of the regimes responsible for this muted, if not silent, compared with that levelled at Israel.

Dear csteele,

If you wish to read actual reports on the demography of the territory, refer to:

John Hope Simpson, Palestine: Report on Land Settlement, Immigration and Development (London, 1930)
Report on Agricultural Devopment and Land Settlement in Palestine by Lewis French (December 1931, Supplementary Report, April 1932)
Palestine Royal Commission Report (the Peel Report) (London, 1937)
also ...
Mashe Auman, 'Land Ownership in Palestine 1880-1948' in Michael Curtis et al, "The Palestinians" (1975)

These are a good starting point.

I notice you are referring to different souces. You are wise to do so than rely upon Wikipedia. Some time ago I had cause to question some “facts” published by Wikipedia. I was informed that as it is an open source, information is not guaranteed to be accurate, also facts can be changed at will. Wiki is open to abuse. Anything you need to rely upon thrown up by Wiki needs to be verified, preferably by numerous sources.

As Yuyutsu rightly observes this is past history. If Britain had honoured its wartime promises of Arab independence, the Hussein-Weizmann agreement signed at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference would have been fulfilled. This ongoing disaster would never have occurred.

Any discussion of the past, especially in relation to the Balfour Declaration, is rendered futile.

Dear Yuyutsu,

Do you realise that your obsession and hatred of Jews, so passionate, ties you inexorably to them. If you really want to rid yourself of this heritage, you need to step back, be completely indifferent, change your name, and attach yourself elsewhere. However, be warned, in each society there are the good, the bad and the evil.

You also appear to hate the Arabs, and undoubtedly the Iranians. In fact, the entire Middle East. Have you no soft spot for camels?

Dear Csteele,

From being imprisoned, my mother and I became exchange POWs, to be among the first lot of Australian refugees back to Australia. My mother was met by Australian Federal Police as she disembarked. They gave her a very bad time. I even remember them in the house. As my mother enveloped herself in silence about the events in Europe, I thought my father had done something terrible. Certainly local people also thought the household subservive. The AFP interviewed friends and neighbours. So intrusive and destructive were they of her daily existense, indeed every action and interaction with others, she was to say later that she wished they had the sophisticated means of surveillance that they have today.

On my return to Australia after being in Malaysia, I encountered “experts” droning on about the Emergency, their voice of “authority” rose with a corresponding degree of ignorance.

Nothing seems to change ...

I have no confidence in public opinion, the mean intelligence drops as numbers increase.
I recall a few years ago, the Australian press required all copy be in a language that a twelve year old could understand.

Many Palestinians have no issue with Israel ... or the “Occupation”. Indeed, many see this as a plus. Do read the links and survey provided on:
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11684

#Danielle

You state:

"If Britain had honoured its wartime promises of Arab independence, the Hussein-Weizmann agreement signed at the 1919 Paris Peace Conference would have been fulfilled. This ongoing disaster would never have occurred. "

My comment:

This ongoing disaster has occurred because the Arabs were never prepared to accept the grant of self determination for

1. the Arabs - in 99.999% of the conquered Ottoman Empire territories and
2. the Jews - in the remaining 0.001%

as embodied in the Mandates for Palestine, Syria and Lebanon, and Mesopotamia

The Arabs had numerous opportunities to change this mindset after these proposals were first initiated by Britain and France in 1920 and endorsed by the League of Nations - but have refused to do so.

For the Arabs it was - and still remains - 100% or nothing