Houlley
I cannot agree about the prevalence of drink spiking. It is a problem - one cannot argue women take responsibility for risky behaviours and then broadly claim that the 'risks' are overstated. I have family in law enforcement and the problem is real, hopefully being better addressed now with the involvement of community educators.

The case referred to, was definitely not made up. The girl in question was drugged and was later treated at a hospital. There is nothing more hurtful to a victim and her family when these sorts of generalisations are made. Each case has to be taken on it's own merits, on the evidence provided including hospital testing, evidence from bystanders, witnesses if there are any. As a society I don't believe we achieve anything by always deferring to the lowest common denominator (false accusers) as the norm.

Clearly not all rape allegations are false and while I know you are not making that claim, there always seems to be an undercurrent of denial from some of the male posters. It would be nice if not essential, for the onus of responsibility to be a two way two way street.

One can be sympathetic to the minefield and harm caused by false accusations while still being attentive and proactive in legitimate rape situations.

Ultimately I agree with Jennifer's approach - women really do have to step up and protect each other, teach our children about risky behaviours and situations - we can't and should not expect men to always act as protector. Nice if they do in the spirit of human camerarderie, but bottom line is we (all of us) can only really depend on is one's own commonsense and instincts. It should not be a given that men will always be 'protector, clearly they do not want that role and why should they it is a 'nice to have' but not an essential - women have to do it for themselves (wasn't that a song?)

I have read the article through twice Robert. Sorry if I don't think along the same lines as you this time. That doesn't necessarily make me wrong or right- it is just how I feel.

I would have thought that quoting statistics on sexual assaults and their relationship with drinking alcohol, or not, would absolutely have something to do with the article's topic?

My position is that I think women already know that they should take responsibility for their drinking and behaviours while in company.

My mum told me years ago that her mother suggested how she should behave in public, and certainly lectured her on the evils of drink, and how it could 'loosen a young girl's inhibitions'.
That would have been in the early 1950's- even before radical feminism was in favour.

I find it a little patronizing that someone is suggesting that it is predominantly the women of today who NEED to be told this as a way to prevent the 'problems' of unwanted attention.
I think they already know this!
The men need to take responsibilty just as much!

Naturally, not all women can be 'good' or 'responsible' all of the time...just like some men. No society is perfect.

I am sure they have already had the consequences of irresponsible behaviour rammed down their throats every time they see an anti-alcohol advert on the TV, not to mention from their schools, family, friends and the police!

We should continue the current campaign on TV re the evils of alcohol abuse for BOTH men and women.

Well of all the posts here, the latest from Yuyutsu takes the cake.
Rape is a socialist plot.
Beam me up, Scotty.

Suzeonline, that study was done in 2004 based on data from 2003

Given that the report itself stresses the difficulties in obtaining accurate data (so many women don't report, and as we've since discovered, especially not when alcohol is involved), and given that it is now eight years later, I wouldn't be basing any arguments on it.

The rise in binge drinking among young men and women has been enormous since 2003 - as has the damage as reported by frontliners such as police, paramedics, and emergency hospital staff. Police are demanding that politicians take responsibility for changing drinking hours - mostly with no success.

I didn't suggest it was *predominantly"*young women who NEED to take responsibility. I said we should stop focusing on complaining about men and redirect our energies to educating women, because complaining about men hasn't worked so far and it's not smart to keep on doing something that we know doesn't work.

I think you are absolutely determined to describe me as someone who wants to blame women. I don't know why.

Re drink spiking. I found an interesting piece on the prevalance http://www.aifs.gov.au/acssa/pubs/briefing/b2.html

The approach seems to largley be there is very little evidence when tested forensically so it must all be spiking with alcohol. The flip side to assuming most claims are made up is to. It does seem from the material I've seen that the "date rape" drug type drink spiking is rare, it's also clear that some people love to encourage others drinking be it for sexual purposes or otherwise.

Suzie, posting stats on the context that rape's occur was fair, your opening swipe at other posters was not.

I agree that both men and women need to be responsible for their own actions, a central point from the article but one that does seem to be lost on some who push the idea that only men need to be responsible for their actions.

As I've already pointed out to vanna I think most women get that but the obsessives in the don't blame the victim camp are so extreme that any mention of acting responsibly get's some very upset (ema's comments which you endorsed). The MTR's of the world and their supporters continue to promote unhealthy attitudes to sexuality which are time proven to create self damaging attitudes when given any credit.

R0bert

Suze,

What are 'official' statistics?

'I get the feeling that many posters seem to think it is mainly drunken, half naked, pub-going, good-time girls...'

Well, you're wrong. We speak about these girls as this is the topic. The author talks about female responsibility, so I talk about laws that imply women aren't capable to give consent when drunk. This is on-topic. Your posts are about rape in general, which nobody thinks is anything to do with women's responsibility. But you like to silence debate by screeching 'blaming the victim!'. Not one poster has even so much as implied that women are responsible for being raped or that the only women who are raped are drunk good-time girls.

To repeat, the expectation that men should gauge women's level of intoxication and also obtain explicit verbal consent repeatedly during sex before the onset of each and every distinct action is plainly ridiculous. Though as pelican has noted, in practical terms, it is not really a factor in terms of false accusations (As I have agreed), it does perpetuate in society the idea that women should not be responsible for what they do when they're drunk. Further, and more importantly, it reinforces the idea that men really be responsible for women when it comes to sex.

Women are under no obligation to verbalise non-consent; Not a very adult expectation. Men are expected to reject consent from a woman if she has been drinking, in a paternalistic fashion; Treating grown women like children.

Pelican,

No doubt it happens (I never said it didn't), but you cant deny it is a ready made excuse these days for people who drink too much, or drink the same as they would ordinarily but haven't eaten or just feel more drunk.

I would say drink spiking is far more over-alleged than rape.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=3521153

PS: I'm still young enough to be around binge drinking culture, and the amount of people (even guys) who have claimed their drink was spiked when I've seen them down half a dozen beers and 6 shots of vodka in 2 hours you wouldn't believe.