“One cannot stop people or States being Jew-haters but on the other hand they need to be identified and exposed - especially when such hatred is State-sponsored. Racism and vilification of this kind have no place in the Government of any State”. So states Mr. Singer.

What he doesn’t say is that he thinks that Goyim’s, yes, that means 99.9% of the readers of these columns, are there just to serve the Jews. That is the philosophy of the teachings in the Talmud, greatly promulgated by the Israeli Rabbis.

Perhaps Mr. Singer, in his role as a constant mouthpiece for Israel’s PR machine, could explain the logic of his argument based on the following.
A draft apartheid law, currently going through the Israeli parliament would enshrine in law the right of Jewish community associations to accept only Jews, making it impossible for Israel’s Arab citizens take up residence in Jewish neighbourhoods.

Commentators have compared the legislation with South Africa's notorious apartheid laws such as the Group Areas Act. A leading jurist, Mordechai Kremnitzer, of Hebrew University in Jerusalem, said the bill gave off the "foul odour of racism”.

So what is new. Mr Singer peppers the phrase Jew-hater in his writings today, being so naïve as not to realize that the days of such self-serving comments, used to effect for 60 years, have lost their impact. However, they will no doubt get another airing during the visit of our Prime Minister’s approved tour for 17 politicians and public servants in Israel for a “Leadership Conference”.

So Mr. Singer, acting as he always is for Israel, he should be very careful in his detailing of anything to do with the introduction and /or support for resolutions in the UN as he is oft to quote, tailored to suit Israel’s viewpoint, certainly not the truth. There is no country in the history of that pathetic world body that has totally ignored as many resolutions as has Israel, naturally with the support of its puppet and benefactor, the US.

A big mistake, Mr. Singer, thinking Australians are stupid.

[Off topic]

Trying to look at the Israel-Palestine issue from an outsider's perspective...how successful have the countless hours, meetings, resolutions etc. from the intertanional community over so many decades been?

I would say both sides have their problems, though that is stating the obvious. Instead of trying to drag more and more countries into the pro-Israel, anti-Israel conundrum why can't they just solve the problem already? Simplistic, yes. But anything is surely possible, even a peaceful solution that would require compromises on all sides.

Obama (and Bush, Clinton, Bush etc. etc.) seem to spend so much time trying to broker an agreement, sometimes pushing too far: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/us-quits-on-israeli-settlements/story-e6frg6so-1225969162333

I would like to know what the author has to say about settlement construction that is illegal under international law.

The former Yugoslavia is gradually prospering, though whether it is possible to gauge the change in people's prejudices there is another matter. I know the former Yugoslavia and Israel-Palestine are not 100% identical, but the issue at heart was more or less the same, right?

http://currentglobalperceptions.blogspot.com/

Mr Singer the world no longer listens to the never ending Zionist list of Jew haters or anti-Semites. I'm surprised you didn't throw that chestnut in for good measure after all it was used against the avid South African Zionist and International Jurist Goldestone for having the temerity of writing the truth about the 2008 Gaza war the exact Israeli words I believe was’… he was a self-hating anti-Semite...’

No Mr Singer no one can accept the name The Jewish Homeland of Israel or whatever version your Foreign Minister and self-proclaimed ethnic cleanser supreme Avigdor Lieberman has come up with to further humiliate and disenfranchise the remaining Muslim and Christian Israelis that still live in that country. The State of Israel doesn't have a religion; it is a self-proclaimed secular state.

You can take your poor little, isolated sole nuclear state story and peddle it to some other country, on that line Israel has lost all credibility. The world has just witnessed it wielding its power with the total humiliation of President Obama and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton by your Prime Minister Netanyahu for refusing an American request to stop further expansion of Israeli settlements on the West Bank and East Jerusalem for ninety days. What was asked of Israel was simply to obey the terms of UN Resolution 242.

America officially gifts Israel $3 billion per annum that doesn’t include all the money Israel bleeds out of America. Israel gets the latest in American weaponry and intelligence even before NATO and to his benefactor, America Prime Minister Netanyahu tells it in not so many words go fly a kite.

The worst of it is Prime Minister Netanyahu knows President Obama won’t or can’t do a thing with midterm elections on the horizon and the entire American Congress in Israel’s back pocket.

No Singer there are no feelings of pity for Israel any longer and as for all these anti-Jewish countries between them all they don’t have one nuclear weapon let alone 200.

I suggest you take your story walking because it won’t wash any longer.

Ulis...you say:

The worst of it is Prime Minister Netanyahu knows President Obama won’t or can’t do a thing with midterm elections on the horizon

Catch up mate...the mid terms are over! and Obama's mob got a caning.

I tend to view the actions of Israel in the same light as those of North Korea and Iran in their defiance of the UN. The main difference is that instead of sanctions Israel gets generous amounts of aid from the US. It seems like any future agreement, UN sponsored (unlikely) or from a following another war (more likely), will largely be defined by realities on the ground. This means that areas populated by Israelis will be part of Israel and same for the Palestinians. To put it bluntly this battle is between the builders and the breeders. He who owns the gold makes the rules.

I tend to disregard opinions from the extreme pro/anti(such as many above), but can anyone tell me what genuine geopolitical reason the US supports Israel to the point of losing international credibility?

#rexw and Ulis

I don't correspond with professed Jew-haters. You both have something else in common - anonymity. Pretty gutless.

#ALGOREisRICH

Not sure what to make of you.

Perhaps you can explain what you mean by the statement:
"So... the best place for those Jews who wish to undermine Western Society is Israel...where they can 'undermine' to their hearts content."

What are "Jews who wish to undermine Western Society" actually doing that seems to be of concern to you?

#Jorge

You ask:

"I would like to know what the author has to say about settlement construction that is illegal under international law."

Settlement construction is not illegal in international law. It is legal and is sanctioned by article 6 of the Mandate for Palestine and Article 80 of the United Nations Charter.

You also ask:

"I know the former Yugoslavia and Israel-Palestine are not 100% identical, but the issue at heart was more or less the same, right?"

Wrong. The issue was not the elimination of Yugoslavia in that conflict but the elimination of Israel is the issue in the case of the conflict between the Arabs and Jews which you incorrectly refer to as "Israel- Palestine". It is a conflict that has gone on for 130 years and did not start in 1948 as Arab propaganda has obviously led you to believe.

#Stezza

"what genuine geopolitical reason the US supports Israel to the point of losing international credibility?"

Perhaps the US believes in upholding international law which provided for the reconstitution of the Jewish National Home in Palestine. Attempts are being made to subvert that law by the Arabs who never accepted the legitimacy of that decision. They have suffered greatly for their obduracy.

Stezza:
"...tell me what geopolitical reason the US supports Israel to the point of loosing international credibility ?"
I think we all wonder about that one Stezza .
Although not necessarily a geopolitical reason , someone once explained to me that money from the US Jewish Lobby (whose loyalty is Israel first & US second) simultaneously bribes & threatens US politicians into submission , & they , preferring to be reelected ,cooperate in snowing the electorate .
I wonder if there is any truth in that .

Stezza,

Just a quick answer to your question. The reason is called AIPAC. Look it up. It is involved in graft, corruption with the ultimate result of controlling the weak US Congress and most of The Senate. It is the Israel Fifth Column. It is an evil organisation and the sleepy, apathetic US public are too complacent to see its danger to date.

This together with all the US presidents since Carter being weak and submissive to the Zionist lobby to the point of never recording a verdict of the perfidy that was the USS Liberty (look that up as well) . In 1967 Israel attacked the USS Liberty, an intelligence gathering vessel flying a US flag, killing 34 crew members. In 2004, Captain Ward Boston, Senior Legal Counsel for the Navy’s Court of Inquiry into the attack swears under oath that President Lyndon Johnson ordered the investigation to reach a verdict of “accident”, even though the evidence indicates the attack was deliberate. Given the use by Israel of unmarked boats and planes, and the machine-gunning of USS Liberty’s lifeboats, the most likely explanation is that USS Liberty was to be sunk with all hands, with evidence left to frame Egypt for the sinking. This would have dragged the US into the war on Israel’s side. False flag, once again.

President Johnson was under the spell of an Israeli spy called Mattilde Krim.. No President since then has done anything.

Raed about the massacres of Shatila and Sabra by the Israelis; the Lebanon Marine Barracks; the killing of the Lebanese PM; Iraq and Afghanistan; 9/11 and on. They are all worth a good read. Is it any wonder that the Israelis are arrogant, receiving as they do US3 billion in aid from the compliant Congress of the USA. .

It just goes on and on. Only have 350 words. The internet is full of the perfidious actions of Israel, false flag episodes, currently the effort they are making to get the US to attack Iran so that Americans do the fighting and dying, not Israelis.

A sad story, I’m afraid,

Stezza I will oblige you with a reply with a true story of the time I lived in New York and this was back in the 1980's.

I was watching CNN and an Israeli politician was on an official visit to Washingtom. The reporter asked him "And what do you think of all this talk of making Israel the 51st State of the Union?" to which the official replied "Ummm, Israel the 51st State of America or America the 2nd. State of Israel?"

That is the extent of the power that Israel holds over America.

David Stinger, your answer to everything is Jew Hater; you did not contradict one statement that I made in my comment with a factual rebuttal. Try to be a little original and call me an anti-Semite it is as big a lie as anything else you wrote. As for my identity at times I chose to be anonymous but I assure you it isn't out of fear. I'm not a Prime Minister you can bring down but you know me. I was on SBS and debated Jeremy Jones of your exceptionally powerful Israeli lobby in Australia AIJAC on the merits of the two state solution. It went on for four hours but he couldn't say much more when I produced four title deeds two in Haifa and two in Jaffa with Palestine clearly written across them. You see he was trying to argue that Palestine never existed. He lost.

David,

So I am assuming all the news and reports that continually state that settlement building is illegal are just fabrications? UNSC Resolution 446 (1979) determined they were illegal. And the following from the UK: http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/global-issues/conflict-prevention/mena/middle-east-peace-process1/israel-international-communityinternational-community/

Also, wasn't the Mandate for Palestine during the British period several decades ago? Is it relevant now?

And the UN Charter:

Article 80

1. Except as may be agreed upon in individual trusteeship agreements, made under Articles 77, 79, and 81, placing each territory under the trusteeship system, and until such agreements have been concluded, nothing in this Chapter shall be construed in or of itself to alter in any manner the rights whatsoever of any states or any peoples or the terms of existing international instruments to which Members of the United Nations may respectively be parties.
2. Paragraph 1 of this Article shall not be interpreted as giving grounds for delay or postponement of the negotiation and conclusion of agreements for placing mandated and other territories under the trusteeship system as provided for in Article 77.

Is Palestine considered a territory under the trusteeship system?

Personally I wouldn't expect an unbiased answer from you but just posting it here to see if others can give insight into the above.

As for the former Yugoslavia, correct if I am wrong, but wasn't the issue there ethnic/religious conflict? Serbs against Croats against Bosnians then agains Kosovars etc. etc. Not unlike the case in Israel.

Also if you see the other side as wanting the elimination of Israel, then I guess there isn't much anyone can do. Sure there are elements in the Palestinian and Arab camps that actively pursue the destruction of Israel. I think they are extremists. But what do you make of this news report out today: http://www.theage.com.au/world/arab-students-get-harsh-lesson-in-racism-from-holy-city-20101217-190rm.html
I am sure this may only be part of the story, but if true then I find it disgraceful. It really seems both sides on this issue just find new ways to prolong the conflict and keep adding fuel to the fire.

http://currentglobalperceptions.blogspot.com/

To the coward who hides behind the name ALGOREisRICH; are you truly insane? Why do you regard Feminism, Black Studies, Woman's Studies, Environmentalism, Human Rights Commissions, et al, as 'evil'?

Are you trying to make a 'modern; version of the anti-Jewish, Czarist secret police created 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion' - the one that claims Jews rule the world and control money supply, are immensely rich by dishonest trading and manipulation and have the world by the throat? Hah! I wish! I'm Jewish and I'm poor and I couldn't sell blankets to Eskimos.

[Off-topic]

#Jorge

UNSC Resolution 446 did not - and could not - extinguish the rights vested in the Jewish people anywhere in the world to "close settlement" in the West Bank conferred by article 6 of the Mandate and preserved by article 80 of the UN's own Charter. The Security Council cannot legally act in contravention of the UN Charter

Both Jews and Arabs have competing claims to sovereignty in the West Bank that remain to be resolved. Until they are Jews have the legal right to live there.

Yes - the Mandate was created in 1920 and its terms were unanimously adopted by the 51 members of the League of Nations in 1922.

The Mandate is still relevant today because of article 80 which states:

"nothing in this Chapter shall be construed in or of itself to alter in any manner the rights whatsoever of any states or any peoples or the terms of existing international instruments to which Members of the United Nations may respectively be parties."

Had article 80 not been inserted in the UN Charter then the provisions of the Mandate would have expired with the League of Nations. Article 80 has preserved the right of Jews to settle in the West Bank.

The two-state solution - designed to settle sovereignty in the West Bank - has clearly failed after 17 years of going nowhere.

The UN might now claim as the residual holder of the Mandate to try to allocate sovereignty in the West Bank - which it attempted to do unsuccessfully in 1947 when the Arabs rejected its proposals.

Unilaterally declaring a Palestinian State in an area of land which is not controlled by the recipient of the declaration would be an act of pure folly.

My proposal would be for sovereignty of the West Bank to be divided between Israel and Jordan - the two successor States to the Mandate - in direct negotiations chaired by the UN Secretary General. This proposal accords with the history,geography and demography of the long running dispute.

"If Brazil were to have its way, 500,000 Jews would have to leave their homes, or be removed."

Half of which were forced to live in the occupied territories due to financial distress and are waiting eagerly to receive their compensation so they can get out of that hell.

The other half... well, they have been warned from the start, they knew from the begining where they were going. If you settle near a volcano, don't be surprised once it errupts.

In any case, those who wish to stay are welcome to remain in their homes as Palestinian subjects.

#ALGOREisRICH

You have outed yourself as a rabid hater of everyone other than white supremacists. Maybe you should change your anonymous name to ALGOREisPOOR. Keep your real name under wraps. If I held views like you I too would be ashamed to let people know my identity.

Rant on - I won't be responding.

#Yuyutsu

You state:

"In any case, those who wish to stay are welcome to remain in their homes as Palestinian subjects."

What is your source for making this statement?

I think to get some sanity into this forum, only those who have lived in, visited, or have direct experience of Israel, and/or the 'territories' should have input to these on-line discussions; because all else appears only to be products of prejudice, delusionary propaganda and, from what I've seen here, sheer bloody-mindedness and anti-Jewish and anti-Israel rants.

As one who has lived in East Jerusalem, only last year, which is a so-called 'Palestinian' area, I can tell you that the locals actually fear a 'two-State' solution because they would then be under PLO and/or Hamas rule and control. Christian Palestinians are seeking refuge in Israel proper and are leaving the West Bank and territories in droves.

At this time of year, it is worth noting that the Christian Palestinian population of places such as Bethlehem has decreased by 70% due to pressure from the Islamists and fear of being under their rule. Yes, Israel takes in Palestinian refugees, but I don't see Israel being lauded for this humanitarian action in the mainstream press and it is something the 'Palestinian' authorities and the PLO / Hamas camp-followers like to keep quiet.

For a balanced and intelligent discussion I think many of the respondees to this site need to do some homework and research.

LOL David Singer

You really are a glutton for punishment.

""In any case, those who wish to stay are welcome to remain in their homes as Palestinian subjects."

What is your source for making this statement?"

I remember hearing it on different occassions on Israel Radio. Here is one printed pointer: http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/pa-settlers-can-become-palestinian-citizens-1.276727

[Off-topic.]

[Deleted for thread hijacking.]

[Deleted for thread hijacking.]

[Deleted. Attempted thread hijack.]

On looking through David Singer's original article I find:

>Jew-hating States

Character assassination.

>requires both areas to be completely cleared of Jews.

As opposed to clearing areas of Palestinians?

Interesting map:

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/media/landloss.gif

>There were no "1967 borders"

Fact: The area was 10% Jewish last century. Now it has been colonized by supremacists from other nations.

>either having to voluntarily leave or be forcibly removed from their homes and businesses.

It was never theirs if they stole it.

>Brazil's decision - which smacks of the infamous Nazi "Judenrein"

More character assassination and use of the Holocaust to justify Palestinian genocide.

>Article 6 of the Mandate for Palestine - which recognized the right of the Jewish people to reconstitute the Jewish National Home in precisely the area that Brazil now wants to see cleared of Jews -

No one has the right to pass a law, to steal or genocide another race.

>Argentina has been quick to follow Brazil's headlong rush into outing itself as a fellow "Jew-hating state"

Character assassination.

>One cannot stop people or States being "Jew-haters"

Character assassination.

>such "hatred" is State-sponsored

Character assassination and intimidation.

>"Racism and vilification" of this kind have no place in the Government of any State.

Character assassination.

>Standing by and doing nothing will only stigmatize those other States as "closet Jew-haters".

Character assassination and intimidation.

>All three countries became places of refuge for fleeing Nazis at the conclusion of World War II. Their shadowy past seems to be coming back to haunt them.

Character assassination.

>once again sends a dangerous message of support to the 21 Jew-hating States

Character assassination.

>both areas to be completely cleared of Jews.

Emotional blackmail and use of the Holocaust, to justify theft and genocide of Palestinians.

In case people are unaware of the Lemkin definition of Genocide, look it up here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Lemkin was a Jewish man that successfully campaigned for the UN Genocide Laws to be put in place. So if anyone understood how Genocide is conducted, he did.

#Yuyutsu

Thanks for your "printed pointer"

The statement you rely on was made by Ahmed Qureia - then Palestinian Authority Chief negotiator. He got the boot - no doubt for saying that.

Six months earlier he had said what probably kept him his job till he did his about face:

"All these attacks prove that settlers are dangerous and that it's impossible to live with them. If these settlers are allowed to stay, that would mean more friction and confrontation. Peace can be achieved only if Israel withdraws to the last centimetre of the Palestinian territories occupied in 1967". Ahmed Qurei, Head of Palestinian Authority Negotiating Team, Jerusalem Post December 13, 2008.

Even if Abbas or Erekat - now the PA Chief Negotiator - came up with the proposal that Jews could live in the West Bank as Palestinian citizens do you really believe any Jews would be that stupid to believe their lives would not be on the line?

Were Abbas or Erekat publicly to make such a concession - do you believe the Jews living in the West Bank would take up the offer?

Abbas and Erekat could be dead and buried and the West Bank taken over by Hamas at any time. You know what Hamas says about Jews - views which are no different really to what Abbas is bound to uphold anyway as Chairman of the PLO. Abbas holds those views wearing a suit and tie. Haniyeh doesn't wear a tie. That is about the difference between them as Jew haters.

The Arabs have a track record for lynching Jews and murdering them in drive-by shootings. They would not be adverse to kidnapping Jews and demanding the release of thousands of convicted Arabs in exchange. Would the PA change the law that presently provides the death punishment to Arabs who sell land to Jews in the West Bank?

Give us a break Yuyutsu

Glad anyway to learn that you listen to Israel Radio quite often.

Let's look at individuals, families and the grass-roots communities.

It's sobering that there is hardly a Jewish family in Israel who hasn't lost a relative or loved one to acts of terrorism by the PLO - in all its guises as it tends to reinvent itself every decade or so - and the Islamists (Hamas, etc). Netanyahu lost his elder brother, rescuing hostage passengers on a plane hijacked by the PLO, in Entebbe, Uganda - are you old enough to remember that? I am.

The US and others demand (not request) that PM Netanyhu be all lovey-dovey to his brother's killers. I know I couldn't.

History shows that terrorism and argy-bargy politics have never solved anything. What did the IRA ever achieve? Bugger all! The fighting in Ireland became redundant when Britain and Ireland joined the European Union.

Mr Singer is perfectly correct that a solution will only come about by agreement between Jordan and Israel. 'Palestinians' were welcome in Jordan UNTIL they attempted to overthrow the government of the late, great King Hussain - the peacemaker, father of the present young, Western educated King Abdullah (highly respected in Israel).

A taxi-driver in Tel-Aviv said to me, in tears, that he went to war in 1967 so that his children and grandchildren wouldn't have to fight and be safe. He was wrong, he lost a child in a Hamas bombing at a disco at a place called the Aquarium on the Tel-Aviv waterfront. One of the terrorists who carried out that bombing which killed more than 40 children and young people, is now a 'minister' in the Gaza Hamas government. And the 'world' wants the Israelis to 'negotiate' with these child killers? Fat chance.

The rest of the world should butt-out and leave matters to the people on the ground, those directly involved.

I predict that peace, and justice will eventually prevail, but not in this generation that has suffered so much.

The same people go from threats and intimidation, to emotional blackmail in the same thread, simply because they wish to take, take, take, until the Palestinian people no longer exist.

This image is all you need to see, to understand what they are doing over there. You will never see this image in the MSM, because the people that control the MSM and the people that control your government, support the Palestinian Genocide 100%!

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/media/landloss.gif

Here is the Lemkin quote, I was unable to fit in above:

In 1943, Lemkin wrote:

Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups.[9]

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Genocide

They are using a historical Genocide, to justify a Genocide that is occurring right now. If you aware of what they are doing and support it, then you are an accomplice.

LOL as I said David Singer,

You are a glutton for punishment.

Why do you keep doing this?

You are making a fool of yourself.

RichardJoachim, if the discussion is not left open, then what is the point of having an on-line discussion?

I do not consider myself to be anti-anything, at least on this issue. But from the information that I get (news reports etc.) both sides seem to have their issues.

Hamas is by no means a benevolent organisation, they are rightly classified as terrorists. Also, as with any political discussion, all sides will be selective with the information that they make public. It would be fair to say that all governments have been deceitful (that includes the Israeli, American, Australian, French governments etc.), some more so than others.

Hamas exists by fomenting and benefiting from conflict. They have chosen violence and the world should rightly condemn them. I am sure there are some on the Palestinian side that reject violence yet their cause is continually hampered by violence and injustices from both sides.

Also, as you say, perhaps its best to leave it to the people directly involved to sort out. The international community and the US in particular have spent so much time, effort and resources that it beggars belief to expect anything when it seems we end up at square one every time.

http://currentglobalperceptions.blogspot.com/

Thank you, jorge,

I certainly didn't mean that we can't talk about it, I can't remember who said it but "jaw-jaw is better than war-war" (some pre WWII US President I think). I detest war - even though they are sometimes necessary, and I've been in two of them - and I detest acts of terrorism and wanton destruction even more.

All I meant was the world should stop interfering and trying to 'force' a settlement. If it's to be it will happen naturally and organically, if that makes sense to you.

#AlisonGraham

At last someone is prepared to address my article. Let me answer your criticisms by reprinting your post in full and posting my replies in CAPITALS.

I will break the reply into three parts because of word limits for each post.

PART 1

>Jew-hating States

Character assassination.

WANTING TO KICK OUT 500000 JEWS FROM THEIR HOMES HARDLY QUALIFIES THEM AS JEW LOVERS. THEY SHOULD BE EXPOSED TO UNIVERSAL CONDEMNATION.

>requires both areas to be completely cleared of Jews.

As opposed to clearing areas of Palestinians?

FURPHY. I AM TALKING ABOUT BRAZIL AND ARGENTINA’S EXPRESSED POLICY. WHAT HAS YOUR COMMENT GOT TO DO WITH THAT?

Interesting map:

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/media/landloss.gif

IN FACT - THERE ARE ACTUALLY FOUR MAPS EACH OF WHICH CONTAINS THE FOLLOWING MISINFORMATION AND PROPAGANDA :

MAP 1 - PALESTINE IN 1945 INCLUDED TRANSJORDAN WHICH DID NOT BECOME INDEPENDENT UNTIL 1946. TRANSJORDAN DOES NOT APPEAR ON THE MAP. ONLY 8% OF THE LAND SHOWN AS “PALESTINIAN LAND” WAS ARAB OWNED. THE REST WAS STATE LAND AND WASTE LAND VESTED IN BRITAIN AS MANDATORY AUTHORITY.

MAP 2 - THE UN PLAN IN 1947 RECOMMENDED A JEWISH STATE AND AN ARAB STATE BE ESTABLISHED. THERE WAS NO PLACE THEN CALLED "ISRAEL" OR "PALESTINE" AS DESIGNATED ON THE MAP. DESIGNATING LAND AS "PALESTINIAN LAND " IS FALSE AND MISLEADING.

MAP 3 - THE AREA DESIGNATED AS "PALESTINE" WAS OCCUPIED BY TRANSJORDAN AND UNIFIED IN 1950 WITH THE EAST BANK. ITS THEN NAME - "JUDEA AND SAMARIA" -WAS DROPPED BY THE ARABS AND THE TERM "WEST BANK" ADOPTED. TRANSJORDAN'S NAME WAS CHANGED TO JORDAN.

MAP 4 - THE LAND IS NEITHER "JEWISH LAND" NOR "PALESTINIAN LAND" IT IS DISPUTED TERRITORY CLAIMED BY BOTH JEWS AND ARABS.

>There were no "1967 borders"

Fact: The area was 10% Jewish last century. Now it has been colonized by supremacists from other nations.

FURPHY. WAS THERE A 1967 BORDER OR ONLY A DEMARCATION LINE? IS THAT TOO HARD FOR YOU TO ANSWER?

#AlisonGraham

PART 2

>either having to voluntarily leave or be forcibly removed from their homes and businesses.

It was never theirs if they stole it.

THEY DIDN’T STEAL IT. SOVEREIGNTY STILL REMAINS UNDETERMINED AND TO BE ALLOCATED BETWEEN JEWS AND ARABS PURSUANT TO THE TERMS OF THE MANDATE AND THE UN CHARTER.

>Brazil's decision - which smacks of the infamous Nazi "Judenrein"

More character assassination and use of the Holocaust to justify Palestinian genocide.

BRAZIL SUPPORTS A POLICY OF CLEARING ALL THE JEWS FROM THE WEST BANK. THAT IS THE IDENTICAL POLICY THE NAZIS PURSUED.

>Article 6 of the Mandate for Palestine - which recognized the right of the Jewish people to reconstitute the Jewish National Home in precisely the area that Brazil now wants to see cleared of Jews -

No one has the right to pass a law, to steal or genocide another race.

THE MANDATE WAS CREATED AT THE SAME TIME AS THE ARABS WERE GIVEN SIMILAR RIGHTS OF SELF DETERMINATION AS THE JEWS, THE ARABS GOT 99.999% OF THE CONQUERED OTTOMAN EMPIRE AND THE JEWS 0.001% - THEIR BIBLICAL AND ANCESTRAL HOMELAND. NOT A BAD DEAL FOR THE ARABS BUT THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO ACCEPT THE DECISION OF THE LEAGUE OF NATIONS AND UNITED NATIONS. YOU ARE ENTITLED TO SUPPORT THE ARAB REJECTION OF THIS SUBDIVISION. REJECTION HAS BROUGHT THE ARABS - AND THE JEWS - NOTHING BUT DEATH AND SUFFERING.

I HAVE REPLIED TO YOUR CLAIM OF STEALING ABOVE. THE CLAIM OF GENOCIDE IS DEALT WITH BELOW.

>Argentina has been quick to follow Brazil's headlong rush into outing itself as a fellow "Jew-hating state"

Character assassination.

THEY ARE HARDLY JEW-LOVERS

>One cannot stop people or States being "Jew-haters"

Character assassination.

THEY CERTAINLY AREN’T JEW LOVERS

>such "hatred" is State-sponsored

Character assassination and intimidation.

THAT IS THE PRICE BRAZIL AND ARGENTINA MUST PAY

>"Racism and vilification" of this kind have no place in the Government of any State.

Character assassination.

DO YOU THINK JEW-HATING SHOULD BE STATE SPONSORED?

(To be continued ...)

#AlisonGraham

PART 3

>Standing by and doing nothing will only stigmatize those other States as "closet Jew-haters".

Character assassination and intimidation.

STATES REMAINING SILENT BECOME COMPLICIT IN THE EXPRESSED POLICIES OF JEW HATERS.

>All three countries became places of refuge for fleeing Nazis at the conclusion of World War II. Their shadowy past seems to be coming back to haunt them.

Character assassination.

ARE YOU PROGRAMMED TO MAKE JUST ONE RESPONSE. DO BRAZIL AND ARGENTINA HAVE A SHADOWY PAST AS NAZI HAVENS OR NOT?

>once again sends a dangerous message of support to the 21 Jew-hating States

Character assassination.

THE ARAB LEAGUE HAS REFUSED TO RECOGNIZE ISRAEL AS THE JEWISH NATIONAL HOME FOR THE LAST 63 YEARS. THIS REFUSAL IS THE ROOT CAUSE FOR THE CONFLICT STILL CONTINUING TODAY. THE LEAGUE STANDS CONDEMNED.

>both areas to be completely cleared of Jews.

Emotional blackmail and use of the Holocaust, to justify theft and genocide of Palestinians.

SEE EARLIER COMMENTS

In case people are unaware of the Lemkin definition of Genocide, look it up here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

Lemkin was a Jewish man that successfully campaigned for the UN Genocide Laws to be put in place. So if anyone understood how Genocide is conducted, he did.

THE WEST BANK ARABS ARE INCREASING IN NUMBERS - HOW IS THAT GENOCIDE?

95% OF THEM ARE UNDER THE COMPLETE ADMINISTRATIVE CONTROL OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY WHO RULE THEIR EVERYDAY LIVES. HOW IS THAT GENOCIDE?

IF THEY EXHIBITED PEACEFUL INTENTIONS THE PA WOULD FULLY CONTROL THEIR SECURITY AS WELL. AT THE PRESENT TIME 55% OF THE WEST BANK ARAB POPULATION IS UNDER THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY’S FULL PROTECTION. HOW IS THAT GENOCIDE?

THEY HAVE THE PA, A PRIME MINISTER AND A GOVERNMENT TO DETERMINE THEIR PRESENT AND FUTURE. HOW IS THAT GENOCIDE?

THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IS HOST TO A BEVY OF WORLD LEADERS WHO FRONT UP TO RAMALLAH EVERY DAY. THE PA ENJOY ACCESS TO THE WORLD’S CAPITOLS.HOW IS THAT GENOCIDE?

THE WORLD MEDIA IS THERE IN DROVES. HOW COULD GENOCIDE BE OCCURRING AS THE PA BASKS IN THE WORLD'S SPOTLIGHT?

GET REAL.

david singer,

No evidence will change certain people. These people fall under the umbrella of conspiracy theorists.

rexw believes that the US and Israel masterminded the 11/9 horror. It is incredible that such people exist ... but they do. To debate them is useless.

Perhaps those suspicious of Israel should ask themselves why is it after $billions have been poured in the never ending black hole of Palestinian territories, that many 100s of Palestinians on the West Bank enter Israel each day to work. Answer: a) they are welcomed, b) they get equitable wages with everyone else, and c) they also get the benefits all Israelis enjoy, such as medical benefits, etc.

Let's not forget the criminal and/or incompetent Palestinan leaders; the hatreds between different Palestinian groups which erupted into civil war requiring a fatwa to prevent the massive exodus of Palestinians from their territories.

Perhaps the answer is for Egypt and Jordan to resume control of the territories they held prior to the Six-day War. In sixty years we have witnessed the US move from civil right disasters to a black president. Exactly what has been achieved in Palestinian territories?
A non-Jewish senior official observed that Palestinians envied Israel's progress ... that if Israel had not become a vibrant society, Palestinians would not be interested in their territory.

Ask any Palestinian what they think of the Arab States ... then duck. Arab States treat Palestinians as detritus; indeed, after generations born in these territories, Palestinians are not eligible for citizenship, and thus normal benefits. Arab States prefer to bring in guest workers, offering amazing perks, rather than employ Palestinians. Of course, there is the problem now - Palestinians are restricted from higher education. A survey should be taken of the varieties of employment available to Palestinians. Indeed, a journalistic expose of the entire sorry saga ...

alison graham,

david singer is absolutely correct. There are no 1967 borders. These are armistice lines ... not borders.

Thank God for people like David and Danielle who cut through the BS. Keep telling the truth and maybe those who hide behind bizarre handles will finally understand - maybe not because that takes intelligence.

Danielle,

The same placards were placed all around the Israeli borders from 1949 to 1967 - with Egypt (including Gaza), Jordan (including the West Bank), Syria and Lebanon:

"Halt! Border ahead!"

If the Israeli government thought there was any difference between its borders with the west bank and its borders with Lebanon, it would have placed different placards, perhaps "Halt! armistice line ahead!", but no, they were all the same.

Yuyutsu,

Semantics are used in media; often semiotics. We see this everyday.

These armistice lines are not internationally recognised borders. They have no legal currency under international law. Until the territories involved come to an agreement, there are no borders.

This does not say I agree with Israel crossing the Green Line. But isn't it time for there to be a decision? Sixty years ... one-hundred and sixty ... it could go on infinitum.

Indeed, in Gazan schoolbooks, there is no Israel.

Danielle,

You gave the answer yourself: don't wait 160 years or until the sides agree - let the United Nations resolve in all formality that the Green Line is Israel's border. I am sure there will be an overwhelming majority for that decision. That will also take care of David's use of legal cavities.

What happens beyond Israel's borders can be resolved at a later date, but don't expect it to be resolved by talking because both sides are controlled and suffer under unrelenting fanatics whom they have no ability to shake off.

Ideally, Israel should offer amnesty to the Jewish settlers, compensate those among them who wish to return home, then leave the hard-core of the settlers to their own devices, beyond its borders. The hard-core settlers will then form their own militia, fight the Hamas, and hopefully their strength will just-about match, so they both annihilate each other, then and only then will peace be possible.

Yuyutsu,

For the most part I absolutely agree. I believe that the UN should do this in concert with Israel. Remember, though, just a few years ago, when there was discussion about UN peace keepers setting up between Israel and Palestinian territories, the Hamas said they would regard them as invaders and kill them accordingly.

Are the hard-core settlers on Gaza's Hamas side? I doubt it.

If you mean by 'unrelenting fanatics', whom I take you to mean, they are bound by their beliefs not to bear arms, they do not contribute to Israel's purse through labour/businesses, nor pay taxes, and apparently are not very good neighbours to anyone ... other Israelis ... whomever ...

I believe they go through a lot of dirty nappies ...

"Are the hard-core settlers on Gaza's Hamas side?"

That's an excellent question!

They will never admit it officially, obviously, but they have more in common with Hamas than with, say, you and I. Both are male-dominant and violent societies, both follow stringent traditional-law texts, both go through a lot of dirty nappies for ideological reasons.

Those hard-core settlers actually call on the government of Israel to allow Abu-Mazen's moderate Palestinian-Authority to collapse and be replaced by Hamas. This is because the prospect of peace terrifies them more than rockets and bombs. They believe that with Hamas on the other side, there is a better chance to perpetuate the state of war, which will eventually give rise to an opportunity to kick the Palestinians out into Jordan.

Hamas' fanatic-streak is well-known: "Jihad", wanting the world to be ruled by Shariah law.
The fanatic-streak of the hard-core settlers is their mystical belief that settling in the West-Bank is the key for bringing their Messiah, that every small effort they make in settling the whole ancient land arouses the Messiah to come sooner. Once their Messiah comes, they believe, he will conquer the lands all around as well as enforce strict Mosaic law over Israel, including flogging and harsh capital punishments for law-breakers, as in Iran. They believe that while now they can only punish public offenders, once their Messiah comes he will also punish those who offend in private against their codes.

They name the majority of Israelis who do not share their ideals, "Messiah's donkey", here to work hard, protect and carry them, then have their corpses discarded along the road once they die of exhaustion.

BTW, I think you confuse between two different groups. The ones who "are bound by their beliefs not to bear arms, they do not contribute to Israel's purse through labour/businesses, nor pay taxes" are not the settlers, but the ultra-orthodox, a distinctly different group (but they also go through a lot of dirty nappies) which rarely harms anyone except themselves.

# Danielle and Yuyutsu

Your derogatory and denigrating comments concerning the personal lives of Jews living in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are offensive and embrace the language of hate.

Your dismissive approach to their right to live there contributes nothing of value to the discussion.

Your posts ignore the following:

1. The West Bank and East Jerusalem are areas where close settlement by Jews was encouraged on state lands and waste lands not required for public purposes under article 6 of the Mandate for Palestine.

2. Their right to do so was preserved in the UN Charter under article 80.

3. Jews indeed lived in both areas until they were driven out during the 1948 War.

4. The West Bank is currently "no man's land" where sovereignty is claimed by both Arabs and Jews.

5. Israel has annexed East Jerusalem as part of its capitol but this has not been recognized by the international community.

6. The UN might well consider itself the repository of the Mandate in respect of the 6% of the Mandate (Gaza and the West Bank) still remaining unallocated between the two successor States to the mandate - Israel and Jordan.

7. The UN could well decide to make a recommendation regarding the allocation of sovereignty of the West Bank and East Jerusalem between Jewish and Arab claimants.

8. Any UN proposal would have to take into account the principal purpose of the Mandate which was the reconstitution of the Jewish National Home in Palestine.

9. There are about 8 million Jews who live outside Israel and the West Bank. The Mandate vested legal rights in them and their descendants that cannot be ignored.

10. The Arabs have refused and still refuse to accept the provisions of the Mandate and the UN Charter.

These are the facts and parameters which I believe are relevant in any discussions on the future allocation of sovereignty in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

David,

I truly am sorry that you believe that I was using the language of hate when discussing a certain group within Israeli society. I did not intend that. However, extremists in all religions worry me a great deal. Yes, the groups in Israel have every right to live there, but you cannot deny that they attempt to impose their religious beliefs upon other Israelis ... in not very charitlable ways. Toleration and acceptance seems to be a one way street.

Having been on the receiving end of religious extremists (not Jews), I find their actions and abuse repugnant, not consistent with civilized society.

I also believe that any group who live within, and benefit from a society are morally bound to contribute to it. Even the Amish who are self-sufficient, living in isolation in communal support, pay taxes.

I may, well, be wrong, David, but these are my views.

I fully concur with Israel controlling East Jerusalem. In the 60's, archaeologists were called in by many communities worldwide to prove their origins on certain lands, right to live there, and provide a common identity. These activities were considered valid. Archaeological reseach of East Jerusalem establishes beyond all question this area as Jewish, and predating all other claims by many, many years.

Yuyutsu,

I am afraid my phrasing with clumsy. I meant the Gazan side.

You cite the definion of religious extremists:

"male-dominant and violent societies, both follow stringent traditional-law texts"

This pretty well says it for all religious extremists.

Danielle,

"You cite the definion of religious extremists"

Not so, I cite the definition of those who use the guise of religion to perpetrate darkness. I deliberately refrained from using the word "religious" here because these people and those behaviours are not religious at all. Religion is about coming closer to God, it has nothing to do with worldly politics and nationalism. God is not a male-chauvinist, God is not a Nazi and God has no interest in building a regime of terror.

True religious extremists probably sit in caves and meditate - and turn the other cheek of course.

"I meant the Gazan side"

Then the answer is 'No'. The only Israeli in Gaza at the moment is the poor kidnapped young conscript, Gilad Shalit, and he is not a settler or a settler-supporter.

David,

Your posts ignore the following:

1. That half the settlers wish they weren't there.

2. That the other half are there for the purpose of bringing over their Messiah.

3. That they consider the rest of the Israelis as their donkey.

4. That they are loyal only to their Rabbis, not to the state of israel.

5. That their provocation against Arabs brings hate and terror to Israel.

6. That Israelis spill their blood to protect those settlers.

7. That Israel is condemned by the whole world because of the settlers' actions.

8. That the occupation corrupts Israel from within and undermines its moral foundations.

9. That Israel has in fact accepted the Green-Line as its border, and had the Arabs not attacked in 1967, that would have remained unchallenged.

10. That life is not a zero-sum monopoly game.

Hey, fake name person!
Have you ever lived in Israel or the Palestine territories? We have, and what you are claiming is total nonsense. What's your real name? Mohammad Kalzel Kazai? (If you know Arabic as I do, you'll know is is a play on words, and fairly insulting.)

What Israel really wants is a prosperous, peaceful partnership with all who live in the region. Is that too much to ask? Yes it is is, because the prime motive behind all this crap from the 'Palestinians' and the terrorist organisations is the destruction of Israel and the murder of Jews.
If you have no real experience, go suck your white wines and Caffe-lates and get out of the mix. You people disgust me, you are wanna-be's who in your arrogance think you have all the answers. Yet you are totally ignorant.

It seems to me that a problem exists with the Palestinians themselves, who have little or no sense of identity - thus the bloodletting, infighting, and potential to be manipulated.

After 80 yrs or so they haven't achieved a sense of community and unity of one people. This seems difficult to understand - especially for those in Åustralia. This might be attributable to the fact that the 'indigenous Palestinians' are in a tiny minority, and the Arab populations now living there have different histories. In Arab areas, one's history means everything.

Emir Faisal, son of Sherif Hussein, in signing an agreement with Chaim Weizman in 1919, welcomed the establishment of a Jewish homeland and with it immigrations of Jews 'on a large scale, and as quickly as possible ... to settle and cultivate the soil.' Faisal saw this as a move to bring back Arabs who had left the territory and gone elsewhere (in droves it would seem). Even large land holders were living elsewhere ... Unhappily, this treaty depended upon Britain fulfilling an agreement which it renaged upon. Nevertheless, this does indicate that the area was severely underpopulated.

During the Mandatory period, Britain placed restrictions on numbers of Jews immigrating,
yet Arab immigration was unresticted. The 1930 Hope Simpson Commision reported that Britain ignored the uncontrolled, illegal Arab immigration from Egypt, Transjordan and Syria. Between 1922 and 1947 the Arab population increased by 120%. The contributing factor was that Arabs wanted to take advantage of the higher living standards created by Jews - the draining of malarial swamps, improved sanitation and health care for the region. Muslim life expectancy rose from 37 years in 1926 to 49 years in just twenty years.

cont ...

I am not an anthropologist, but it would seem that these diverse backgrounds may go some way to understanding why Palestinians don't act as one people; why opportunistic outsiders can enter, manipulate and exploit them.

As for those in Gaza, they don't speak the Arabic spoken on the West Bank, their familial and economic ties (such as they are) are with Egypt.

The world has witnessed the bloody internal divisions within Palestinian society/ies. It would seem that until they can come together as one, they certainly can't make any valid and lasting moves for peace with, and acceptance of Israel as a legitimate state. Israel is a haven of peace in comparison with the West Bank and Gaza.

[Deleted for shouting.]

[Deleted for "shouting"]

The idea of establishing a common enemy (frequently imaginary) to manipulate people has ancient roots - indeed, today it is even used in advertising and business.

The Palestinian leadership has done this effectively with their people, diverting them from their criminal activites and embezzlement of public funds. The leadership has used sophisticated media and hate filled rhetoric.

By all media, Hamas laud the virtues of martyrdom, even for children. If members within their communities don’t comply with the standard line, then the Hamas response is swift and deadly.

If the Palestinians had accepted the state of Israel, with both living at peace with each other, how greatly would the Palestinians have benefited and prospered. Emir Faisal recognised this as early as 1919.

Where are the courageous Palestinians who also recognise this? There are no peoples on earth, where a number don't question their governments. Some are prepared to suffer the consequences. Apparently, Palestinians are not. This is a tragedy, not only for Israel, but also for the Palestinians themselves.

“#Yuyutsu

I cannot ignore what you have not posted. Now that you have - my responses follow and are posted in two parts

Part 1 :

1. That half the settlers wish they weren't there.

Are you an expert in stereotyping and Jew identification classification?

2. That the other half are there for the purpose of bringing over their Messiah.

Same as reply to 1

3. That they consider the rest of the Israelis as their donkey.

Which half or does this apply to the lot?

4. That they are loyal only to their Rabbis, not to the state of israel.

Do none of "them" (whoever you so classify) serve in the army or go out and collect the body pieces of their fellow citizens blown to smithereens whilst they are shopping or travelling on buses? Do none of them perform non-military duties instead of combat service? You are an empty bag emitting a particularly bad odour.

5. That their provocation against Arabs brings hate and terror to Israel.

Precisely what acts of provocation are you referring to. Are you trying to justify the indiscriminate and targeted killing of jewish and arab civilians?

6. That Israelis spill their blood to protect those settlers.

Israelis spill their blood to protect themselves from being wiped off the face of the earth by Arabs whose charters call for their elimination

( To be continued ...)

“#Yuyutsu

(continuing my previous response)

Part 2

7. That Israel is condemned by the whole world because of the settlers' actions.

Is it because they have settled in the West Bank in accordance with the rights legally conferred on them? Is there one law for Jews and a different law for Arabs?

8. That the occupation corrupts Israel from within and undermines its moral foundations.

Please particularize.

9. That Israel has in fact accepted the Green-Line as its border, and had the Arabs not attacked in 1967, that would have remained unchallenged.

You may be right. But israel was attacked in 1967 and the arabs defeated. Security council resolution 242 made it clear that israel would not have to withdraw to the green line again. The arabs don't accept the security council resolution The jews don't accept that they have to commit national suicide.

If the arabs want to take another tilt at israel then they may well end up with less than they can get now. Their rejectionist policies displayed for all to see since 1937 indicate they have learned nothing. That is their right and it is your right to encourage them to maintain the rage. It is my right to maintain that you are a dope. Your expressed views on jews living in israel and the west bank give them the hope that their campaign to delegitimize the jewish state is really working and that such a goal can be achieved.

10. That life is not a zero-sum monopoly game.

For the seven million jews living in israel and the west bank it is. Tell me another member of the united nations who is not recognized by other members of the united nations and whose elimination is actively sought by other members of the united nations.

If you are trying to tell us the jewish settlers are the crux of the problem - how come peace was not achieved between 1948-1967 when not one jew lived in the west bank and gaza and a palestinian state could have been created there with the stroke of a pen

David,

To save words, I will refrain from quoting the above 10 points:

1. Stereotyping? I know some of those people, they have faces, they were forced into the West-Bank and Eastern-Jerusalem when their families grew, could not afford adequate housing in Israel, but received 0-interest mortgage from the government on condition they stay across the border. They vote for pro-withdrawal parties and still pray for financial-compensation that will allow them to return to Israel.

2. Personal acquaintance. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gush_Emunim

3. Only the hard-core settlers who wish to stay there: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Messiah%27s_Donkey

4. Body-pieces aside (that's essentially performed by Ultra-Orthodox "Zaka", not the settlers), hard-core settlers are most happy to serve in the army, they see it as a way to arm and train themselves, and to work within the army to prevent their evacuation. They also use their military experience to threaten military officers that if they try to evacuate them, they will kidnap their children on their way to kindy.

5. Certainly not. I refer to 1001 deliberate acts by settlers to make Arab everyday-life miserable. Including stone-throwing, road-blocking, beatings, noise, graffiti, cutting-down-trees, taking away water, etc. etc. The aim being to make them want to leave.

6. I meant ON TOP of the obvious and unavoidable blood spilt during legitimate defense from Arab attacks on Israel.

7. Beyond the facts of occupation and settlement, Israel is also condemned for the disgraceful behaviour of those settlers as well as for the extra cruel and humiliating measures which the Israeli army needs to take in order to protect those settlers, following their shameful and cowardly behaviour.

8. The occupation changed the face of Jewish-Israeli society, from being a humble people who thank God for what they have into a militant society that believes that everything they have was achieved by their own arms. From compassion to aggression, from modesty to arrogance. Once cruelty was accepted as the norm beyond the border, it sipped into all walks of life, including domestically, in schools, criminally and on the roads.

Continued...

...continued

9. So you say that the Arabs and/or the security-council, have the right to ruin Israel from within? that because the Arabs did this-and-that, Israel is no longer allowed to be content with what it was previously content with? That would, in other words, mean that Israel lets itself be controlled and led-astray by the Arabs! Israel is committing national suicide by hanging on to those cursed territories, not by letting go of them.

10. Completely irrelevant: what's between the fact that some nations want to eliminate Israel and this perceived monopoly game, based on the premise that "the more land you acquire, the better"? Those occupied territories are not an asset, but a liability - they are a TRAP. As monopoly seeks to make opponents financially bankrupt, holding those territories makes Israel morally bankrupt.

"If you are trying to tell us the jewish settlers are the crux of the problem - how come peace was not achieved between 1948-1967"

Other factors were indeed more dominant 30-60 years ago, but today the remaining crux of the problem is equally the Hamas and the settlers.

Among things that have changed are:

* The fall of the soviet empire, which stood behind the Arabs.
* The formation of a Palestinian middle-class.
* Israel's nuclear weapons.
* Peace with Egypt and Jordan.
* The Saudi peace plan, being accepted by almost all Arab countries (probably to the exclusion of Lebanon).
* The Iranian Shiite threat that is common to Israel and most Arab countries.

I am sick of these arm-chair historians and 'we can make it right' outsiders. If you've never lived in the Mid-East your only knowledge can come from the propaganda issued. Surely the West recognizes the State of Israel and its value as the only democratic and advanced "Western" country in the Mid-East.

All this nonsense about 'borders' and who owns what, is all directly related back to the British who, at the same time they were dishing up the Mid-East were also drawing lines on the Indian sub-continent and what a hash they made of that. Same department of the British Foreign Office, same Under-Secretaries, same British BS. Time to deal with present day realities.

If you Muslims want Peace, drop your weapons, it's not surrender, it's something we call in the West 'reality'. Israel is not going to go away, it's a fact of life in the 21st century. Grow up, you tried to destroy Israel many times, you made wars, you lost - and not a single US or foreign military person was involved. Todays situation is the result of your aggression. Get over it.

John Pilger tells us that:
"I can think of few books about Israel and Palestine, written by an Australian, as important as Antony Loewenstein's, "My Israel Question." Dr Ilan Pappe, Senior Lecturer at the University of Haifa, Israel, and author of "A History of Modern Palestine," confirms, "My Israel Question," will serve as an essential guide for those who dare criticise Zionist wrongdoing in the past and Israeli policies in the present, without being deterred by false allegations of antisemitism." The book is available from any regional library and
is a very interesting read for anyone interested in the conflict. Taken from the cover of the book, we are told that "Antony Loewenstein, a young Australian Jew, fearlessly investigates the ways in which the Jewish diaspora in Australia and elsewhere have campaigned on Israel's behalf, in the media and in political and business spheres."

"He also considers the historical rationale for Zionism, including the centurues of virulent European antisemitism from which it grew, and asks how relevant and sustainable twentieth-century Zionism is today. "My Israel Question" is a searching discussion from a significant new voice in one of the most important debates of our times." It's a highly recommended read for anyone interested in the
conflict, written by an Australian Jew who has done his research.

The article below documents proof that is very difficult to dispute that there is a land call Palestine and Arab Muslims are natives of the land.

" Indeed, many an Arab politician and historian denied that there was ever a country called “Palestine.”

To name the amount of Arab political figures and historians who stated this would require an article all by itself. Suffice to say that Arabs such as the late Hashemite monarch Hussein “Chairman” Arafat, and noted Arab historian Philip K. Hitti, have all candidly admitted that no such country as “Palestine” ever existed.

...The late King Hussein, who knew about artificial entities (i.e., Transjordan – now “Jordan”) said that “[T]he truth is that Jordan is Palestine, and Palestine is Jordan.” He said this on more than one occasion in the 19070s and as late as December 26, 1981 in an interview with the Paris based Arabic newspaper An-Nahar Al Arabi (“The Arabic Daily”).

And in one of the most candid admissions ever made, Zuhair Muhsin, little known leader of the PLO splinter gang known as “Al Sa’iqa” (The Storm) and backed by Syria, said in a March 31, 1977 interview with the Dutch newspaper Trouw:

'The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct Palestinian people to oppose Zionism.'

And of course, there was “Chairman” Arafat who in a 1974 interview with The New Republic stated: “What you call Jordan is actually Palestine.” http://www.islam-watch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=492

If the West is going to recognise the "state of Palestine" they are going to make the same mistake as Kosovo. The Europeans have evidence that Kosovo is ruled by "thugs and organised crime"
http://www.newsmild.com/kosovo-pm-denies-mafia-style-crime-allegations

Lexi,

I have a great deal of problem with Pilger. Let's leave it at that.

As for Illan Pappe (and Benny Morris) they are revisionist historians. This is a review of their work in Middle East Opinion
http://www.middleeastopinion.com/history-&-policy/node/39

"The central thesis here is that the new historians provided more detail than was previously available to the orthodox or old historians, but more detail does not mean more objective history. While their accounts are rich in detail, they tend to inflate certain items at the expense of larger issues - like discussing the Titanic without mentioning the iceberg. A historian should allow all of the available sources guide their conclusions; it should not be guided by a determination to debunk a narrative. By and large, the revisionists argue points based on a selective focus and the full context of the time in question becomes blurred. They have an agenda and they do not attempt to disguise it. As Ilan Pappe explained in what amounts to the "new historian's" manifesto, the "new history" is a revolutionary movement whose goal is to "reconsider the validity of the quest for a Jewish nation-state in what used to be geographic Palestine."

The new availability of Israeli archives in the 1980s sent the revisionists to scrutinize Israeli actions. There was no new archival evidence available in the Arab world. Some revisionists, including Benny Morris, could not read Arabic even if Arab archives were opened. Thus, the focus was on Israeli actions and the context was lost. The selective focus and lack of context has remained a revisionist tradition through the present day."

cont ...

Even Benny Morris' review "Ilan Pappe’s New Book Is Appalling" in History News Network
http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/4479.html

“ (Pappe) ... believes that there is no such thing as historical truth, only a collection of narratives as numerous as the participants in any given event or process; and each narrative, each perspective, is as valid and legitimate, as true, as the next. ....

... much of what Pappe tries to sell his readers is a complete fabrication" and quotes Pappe himself to explain the "multiplicity of mistakes on each page" that is a product of both Pappe's historical methodology and his political proclivities”

Ilan Pappe appeared on the same platform as Alan Hart (proven to be a rabid antisemite), who claimed that he, personally, could have prevented the Six-day War.

As for Antomy Loewenstein: why shouldn’t people from the Jewish diaspora and in
Australia support Israel? Obviously, not all Jews do so. Many non-Jews support Israel.

Why is it when Jews support Israel, people immediatly see in it as some sort of evil conspiracy!

Danielle:

You can't really make up your mind about the book, "My Israel Question," by Antony Loewenstein unless you've actually read it.
All I can do is suggest that you do so.

Lexi,

I have read his many diatribes. If I have time, I will, as you suggest, read his book.

Danielle:

I'm not trying to be contentious here. I've always respected your opinion and I would genuinely be interested in what you think of the book. Fingers-crossed that you do find the time to read it.

Lexi,

I have read a number of reviews of Loewenstein's book, in which he appears to follow his usual diatribes.

"Mythology loses out to the facts" written by Gerard Henderson of the Sydney Institute, published by smh (25/7/2005) seems to encapuslate Loewenstein's arguments - as I understand them, and refute them ably.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/mythology-loses-out-to-the-facts/2006/07/24/1153593268904.html

However, as I said, I will read Loewenstein's book. With so many excellent and accurate online sites providing information about Israel, and also archival material holding primary sources available, it shouldn't be too difficult to evaluate his arguments for myself.

When I was a history tutor at university, I instructed my students to question everything they were told - by the different media, their parents (young people must learn to be independent thinkers), the lecturers, and even myself; stating that if they provided an excellent counter-argument, with solid references, they would be marked accordingly. My fellow tutors, indeed the history department, were not happy. Instead of sitting silently like shags on a rock (the customary position), the students participated with loud enthusiasm in their tutorials. In their finals (marked by others) none of my students failed; indeed, they achieved more distinctions than any other group. My satisfaction was that they had learned how to research and question issues properly.

Anyway, Lexi, thank you for the reference.

Danielle:

You sound exactly like my father. He taught me to always ask "Why?"
I'm sure that you have lifted the fog for your students, caused the Great Aha!, and literally changed their lives. As we all know the historian can establish that an act took place on a certain day, but this, by historical standards constitutes only chronology or, "factology." The moment the historian begins to look critically at motivation, circumstances, context, or any other such considerations, the product becomes unacceptable for one or another camp of readers. You've written in the past that you're wary of
extremists (where ever they come from), that's partly why I would
appreciate your opinion of Loewenstein's book. I know you will be fair.

Thank you, Lexi, for your kind words.

However, once students have access to source material in addition to set texts, they are pretty well on their way.

One thing that was particularly noticeable was that as the students came from very mixed backgrounds - from priviledged to very modest. Initially there was a certain reticence for the latter to open up. As the first term progressed, all became individuals with views and opinions debated and respected by others regardless of background. Friendships developed across the board.

Yes, Lexi, history has to be interdisciplinary. Indeed, there are also many schools of history extending from the Annales school, Economic history to that of Wig. All have a contribution to make.