Fester,

So.

I can remember reading of a major study of condom use amongst young people in France. It found that using condoms was no better than using nothing at all for preventing pregancy.

As for STDs, the more often someone has sex with different people, the greater the risk of catching or spreading a STD.

Condoms don't make much difference.

Yabby

Tobacco companies lobby governments for decisions that would bring them financial gain. So do oil and coal companies. And so do a myriad of others. Why should the Catholic Church be singled out for exclusion, especially when the Catholic hierarchy believes that they are lobbying for decisions which would benefit humanity?

You and I disagree with many of their policies, but differ in that you would describe Catholicism as an evil empire whereas I believe it better to argue that different choices produce better outcomes for humanity.

The Catholic Church is not a malevolent force like an Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany. It is instead an organisation which has had a substantial role in the formation of our civilisation.

Pelican, a very good post. Vanna wears his bias on his sleeve.

*especially when the Catholic hierarchy believes that they are lobbying for decisions which would benefit humanity?*

Fester, the leadership of the Taliban make the same argument.
So should we stop criticising them?

Nope, I don't blame the whole Catholic Church. I blame the last
pope, JP2. The man clearly carried alot of chips on his shoulders
and the world paid a heavy price for his wierd family planning beliefs.
Most Catholics ignored the teachings, many left the church.
In the third world, they don't have the options that we have in the
first world, so they suffer.

The thing is, the Vatican has now painted itself into a corner and
its hard to dig its way out. It took them a few hundred years to
admit that they were wrong about Galileo. We'll see how many hundred
years it takes them, on this one.

Vanna, enough studies have been done, which show that condoms
are a benefit, when it comes to avoiding the spread of disease.
But education goes along with that.

In Uganda they introduced an effective ABC plan. Abstinence,
be faithfull, condoms. All three were preached and it worked, the
hiv rate started to drop. Along came the Bush regime and a fanatical
Ugandan presidents wife and the condoms bit was dropped. They became
hard to obtain and expensive. The result, a rising HIV rate.

Fact is that even the religious are subject to natural sexual urges
and when they can't contain themselves any longer, its better to
have plan C handy, then no plan at all.

"Condoms don't make much difference."

So why does the Catholic Church make such a fuss about them? I thought one concern was that they increased promiscuity without increasing procreation. Doesn't this suggest that the Catholic Church thinks condoms a contraceptive? If so, they would be in agreement with a great deal of scientific and anecdotal evidence.

Yabby

The Taliban want to encourage the belief that they are being attacked because they are Muslim. They want conflict in Afghanistan to be seen as evil aggressors trying to stop them creating an Islamic Utopia. How much support would they have if people saw the issue as the human impact of the Taliban's actions and not Islam?

I would suggest that on the issue of contraception, an argument about evidence of the human benefit of contraception would trump an argument about the morality of the Catholic hierarchy.

*The Taliban want to encourage the belief that they are being attacked because they are Muslim.*

Fester, the Taliban believe that theirs is the one and only true
intepretation of gods law and we should all live by that law.
The Catholic Church believes exactly the same.

The Taliban use force to impliment their ideology. The Catholic
Church used to use force, but were rolled by the rise of the
secular state. Hopefully the same will eventually happen to Islam.
Its already happening in many places.

As to the argument about contraception, its an argument that you
cannot win, with the Catholic Church. For they claim to be the
ones in touch with the Almighty and they are going to tell you
what is good for you, what is moral and what is not. If you plan
to get to heaven on the Catholic ticket, you play it their way
or not at all. If they have brainwashed you in Catholic belief,
since you were a kiddy, you might well believe them and comply.

The church needs to provide no evidence of their claims, as do
other marketers. You should just have faith and believe.

So no matter how sound your reasoning Fester, it won't wash,
as you arn't in touch with the Almighty, as the pope claims
to be

Yabby

If the RCC didn't care about argument, then why do they spend so much time engaged in it? In the Philippines they want public opinion polls on the reproductive health bill banned. In Queensland there was the attempt to suggest that an archaic anti-abortion law had public support. On OLO there are many religious contributors willing to argue that their ideas are the most beneficial to humanity.

You might see the RCC as having been rolled by secularism, but it could also be argued that the RCC advanced civilisation to the point where it could move toward secularism. And in a secular world you justify yourself logically, for what sense would it make if the Church advanced a line of reasoning that was demonstrably harmful to humanity? Wouldn't this conflict with the notion of the Church being humanitarian?