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The Forum > Article Comments > Pope Benedict XVI and Condoning Condoms: If you don't have anything nice to say… > Comments

Pope Benedict XVI and Condoning Condoms: If you don't have anything nice to say… : Comments

By Sophie Harman, published 1/12/2010

While Pope Benedict's position may be unclear it is politically deft and a definite shift in Catholic thinking.

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In third world countries young women are least likely to be able to negotiate abstinence or faithfulness of men who are likely to ignore abstinence. Condoms provide some hope but only if appropriate education can encourage regular, widespread use of them.
Posted by McReal, Wednesday, 1 December 2010 8:34:42 AM
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A well written article. Just a small observation: If “Condemnation and the suggestion that condoms increase the problem” refers to the pope’s remark on the Alitalia plane during his trip to Africa in March 2009, then it might be of interest what he actually said:

"You can't resolve it with the distribution of condoms. On the contrary, it increases the problem." (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29734328/ns/world_news-africa/).

Here apparently the “it” does not refer so much to condoms as to their (free) distribution (in Africa), which he - rightly or wrongly - sees as encouraging promiscuity, a no-no for the Church.
Posted by George, Wednesday, 1 December 2010 9:36:38 AM
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Today 1 December 2010 is World AIDS Day and although there is not much being said about HIV prevention in the Australia media today, gay marriage, US defence leaks and the Shark's third bride are the headlines, it is sobering to remember that,

"At the end of 2009 an estimated 20,171 people were living with an HIV diagnosis in Australia.

From the start of the epidemic until the end of 2009, there have been 29,395 diagnoses of HIV and 10,446 diagnoses of AIDS. Australia has recorded 6,776 AIDS deaths."
http://www.avert.org/aids-hiv-australia.htm

and HIV is on the rise in the over 55s.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/18/3041694.htm

“Research at the University of New South Wales found well-educated professional men in early middle age — those who experienced the AIDS epidemic of the 1980s — are most likely not to use a condom.”

Julie Robotham, “Safe sex by arrangement as gay men reject condoms,” Sydney Morning Herald, June 7, 2001. Data source: 2000 Male Out Survey, National Centre in HIV Social Research, Australia, as quoted in http://factsaboutyouth.com/posts/mental-health/

Maybe we should be looking in our own backyard today and seeing what can be done to encourage safer sex. Apparently it is not only the Pope who has an attitude problem to condom use.
Posted by Cornflower, Wednesday, 1 December 2010 10:58:13 AM
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I wonder if he is condoning the use of condoms by priests with small boys?
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 1 December 2010 12:48:32 PM
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The Pope has not changed Catholic teaching . He has not said that heterosexuals having sex with other heterosexuals may use condoms . Catholic teaching remains that sex except between heterosexual married partners is sinful , regardless of condom use .
Between a male prostitute and another male , using a condom obviously does not prevent pregnancy , so that its use does not affect the Catholic teaching that the sex act is immoral . However , the use of a condom reduces the likelihood of HIV .

In the case where a male prostitute has sex with a woman the Pope is not saying that the sex act , using a condom , is morally correct . Catholic teaching remains that the act is immoral . Using a condom , to minimise HIV , neither increases , nor decreases , the degree of immorality .

jaylex
Posted by jaylex, Wednesday, 1 December 2010 2:18:22 PM
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Like any good university academic, the author takes the feminist stance on this issue, which is to support the use of condoms.

In the hierarchy of risk control measures, condoms constitute personal protective equipment, and occur at the bottom of list of risk control measures. They are the least likely means of containing risk.

Never automatically accept anything a feminist says, and I think it has definitely approached the stage of never automatically accepting anything said by a university academic.

According to risk management, the Pope is 100% correct in not supporting condoms.

University academics and feminists should read their risk management manuals.
Posted by vanna, Wednesday, 1 December 2010 2:38:44 PM
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The denial of contraception to the world's poor is a social oppression far greater than Apartheid ever was. Take a look at the slums of India and you quickly realise their function as battery human farms supplying slave labour.

It is a shame to see the Catholic hierarchy obsessing about the morality of the sexual act, yet ignoring the immorality of those who deny the poor access to contraception.
Posted by Fester, Wednesday, 1 December 2010 7:30:16 PM
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Fester,
India is hardly a Catholic country. It is 80% Hindu.

Some countries that are predominantly Catholic have a very low birth rate. Eg Italy.

It has become very trendy to sink the boot into Catholics or Christians, and I've noticed it particularly prevalent from academics.
Posted by vanna, Wednesday, 1 December 2010 8:29:53 PM
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Luckily most of the first world, including most Catholics, takes
little notice of what the Pope thinks about contraception and
family planning. We have a separation of church and state, people
can afford to buy the pill, condoms, norplants or an abortion if
required. The snip is common too these days. The third world is not so fortunate.

I guess some days its a slow news day, so the press will fill in
the blanks with either what Paris Hilton, Sarah Palin or the old
papa have to say. Fair enough, its how journalists make a living.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 1 December 2010 8:49:39 PM
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Vanna

Catholicism is concerned for the welfare of all humanity, not just Catholics. India is an example of a country where the denial of contraception is a tool of social oppression. Whether it is an action of the Catholic Church or other parties does not change the fact that it is an act of oppression.

But if you want a predominantly Catholic example of where denial of contraception is a means of oppression then I would cite the Philippines. Just a few mega rich and masses of dirt poor people. The Catholic Church denies that there is any relation between the poverty and feudal distribution of wealth, and the rate of population growth. I differ with this opinion.

There is a mass of poverty stricken people residing in many Catholic countries. including Italy, as a result of the Church Hierarchy's stance against contraception.
Posted by Fester, Wednesday, 1 December 2010 9:18:35 PM
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"When the Pope speaks, people listen.."

Well, THERE'S your problem!
Posted by Jon J, Thursday, 2 December 2010 6:15:32 AM
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Fester,
Italy has a birth rate well below replacement level.

Australia's current wealth has more to do with coal and iron ore than anything else.

Its simply trendy to be critical of the Catholic church.

Nearly every academic does it.
Posted by vanna, Thursday, 2 December 2010 7:19:24 AM
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Pope Benedict XVI represents the "old order" of Catholicism which sees the church as the sole repository of absolute, unchangeable truth about God, life and moral values. The "old order" believes that the church is here to guide the world and that it has little or nothing to gain from mundane wisdom. The Catholic's task is to tell it as it is, to proclaim the church's teaching in season and out of season. This is especially true regarding issues like abortion, stem cell research and contraception and gender issues like homosexuality.
Thus far the church has not responded to any particular needs of modern society. Therefore the Pope's comments here are open to interpretation (that wasn't what he said), and could also change at any time.
Posted by Lexi, Thursday, 2 December 2010 9:44:33 AM
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Vanna

I think the Catholic Church a wonderful institution and think that the world is a better place because of it. What is wrong with having a difference of opinion with it on an issue? How does that equate with "putting the boot in."? Just because I think that the Catholic Church takes the wrong stance on contraception does not infer that I think they have moral failings. On this question I merely think that the Church Hierarchy gives too much consideration to the intrinsic matters of procreation and promiscuity, and too little consideration to the extrinsic matter of denial of contraception as a means of oppression.
Posted by Fester, Thursday, 2 December 2010 5:59:39 PM
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*Its simply trendy to be critical of the Catholic church.*

I should hope that its finally become trendy. The Vatican is
responsible for much misery and suffering in the third world.
They need to be held to account for that. They are a highly
political player in the third world and every political
player should be open to judgement and scrutiny.

If the Church simply preached to its flock, fair enough.
But their political interference goes right up to the UN,
where they lobby for their backward family planning policy.

When a woman has popped out 8 kids and still can't get her
tubes tied, because the Catholics own the hospital, there
is a serious problem.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 2 December 2010 6:31:39 PM
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Yabby,
Last century, the most suffering in the world actually came from marxist regimes, and estimates are that over 100 million died under those regimes, normally in concentration camps or through mass forced starvation.

I also haven't noticed anything similar to a fatwa being issued on an academic if they are critical of the Catholic church, and perhaps this is why they like to be critical of the Catholic church rather than other religions.

According to risk management, the Pope is 100% correct in not supporting the use of condoms, and personally I haven't seen statistics that conclusively show that the use of condoms reduces AIDS.

If anything, condoms might just give people a false sense of security.
Posted by vanna, Friday, 3 December 2010 4:53:25 PM
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Vanna, the popes method of crossing your legs for Jesus, has
proven to be a dismal failure globally. Not even the Catholic
clergy manage to live by it.

Its been well and truly tried and tested in the US. In some
schools that is all they teach. Result is some of the highest
rates of teen pregnancy in the Western world. Compare them
to Holland, where sex education, the pill and all the rest are
taught, with some of the lowest rates on the planet.

Australia's attack on HIV with the Grim Reaper campaign,
involving condoms, exchange needles and dealing with the
issue head on, resulted in our having one of the lowest
HIV rates on the planet. Our method was clearly a success.

Forcing people to have children that they don't want, so
they have to live in poverty, forcing young raped girls
to have the child, forcing desperate women to risk their
lives having backyard abortions, where tens of thousands
die every year, is hardly humane. If you'd like a URL
link about some of the misery going on in the third world,
due to the last pope, I have one in the archives. I'll
post it, with the full transcript link, if you are
interested. But I've posted it many times before on
OLO.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 3 December 2010 5:23:00 PM
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Yabby,
There is no connection between your statistics and the Cathloic church, and some of your statistics were made up by the abortion industry.

Eg Australia has the pill, and it has a high rate of abortion. There were very few women killed through backyard abortions. There are very few women raped, with estimates that it is only about 1 in 100 chance that they would become pregnant from a rape.

As mentioned, it is easy for academics to attack the Catholic church, because the Catholic church seldom fights back. But these same academics should go to some other countries and attack their religion and see how long they can stay out of jail, or out of the morgue.
Posted by vanna, Friday, 3 December 2010 6:52:49 PM
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*and some of your statistics were made up by the abortion industry.*

Of course they were Vanna. Just pulled out of a hat. All those women
dying, just a figment of imagination. If only it were true. The
WHO would strongly disagree with you. Its tens of thousands of women
a year btw.

Yes, we have a higher abortion rate then we should. Our sex education
at schools is not the best. We could learn alot from countries like
the Dutch.

*because the Catholic church seldom fights back.*

Err hang on Vanna, the Catholic Church used to have people like me
burned at the stake. Not so many hundred years ago either.

The church ruled with an iron fist. Luckily Europe woke up to them.
I guess it was pointed out to them, that burning people at the stake,
is hardly Christian.

Meantime the third world suffers hugely from their backward
family planning policy, for in the third world they still have a say.
Unlike Europe, where even Italians voted them down and voted for
abortion reform. Luckily the world woke up to the Catholic Church,
or at least the Vatican, for its not the public, but the top
in Rome, where the problem lies.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 3 December 2010 8:03:23 PM
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Made up?

My sister lived in the north of Thailand in the mid 1970s. One of her friends took it upon herself to explain the use of condoms to the local women. Of course, Mechai Viravaidya has transformed the lives of many in Thailand with his family planning campaigns. The benefits are very evident and substantial.

In contrast, the Philippines has virtually no contraception for its poor as a result of Catholic Hierarchy opposition. The resultant deprivation and suffering is very evident and substantial.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2032491,00.html
Posted by Fester, Friday, 3 December 2010 8:53:34 PM
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Yabby

"THE SECOND KEY TACTIC WAS TO PLAY THE CATHOLIC CARD
We systematically vilified the Catholic Church and its "socially backward ideas" and picked on the Catholic hierarchy as the villain in opposing abortion. This theme was played endlessly."
http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html

Seems that theme is still being played out in certain feminist universities around the world.

The Catholic church is but one church. Many academics are too cowardly to critise other religions that have carried out just as much if not more harm than the Catholic church, or too cowardly to condem marxism, that has actually killed more people than any religion or political system ever developed.
Posted by vanna, Friday, 3 December 2010 9:32:58 PM
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Vanna, your author has a point. Its not the Catholic Church that
is the problem, but the last pope and the Vatican hierarchy.

The man clearly carried all sorts of chips on his shoulder, hundreds
of millions paid a huge price.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/3147672.stm

You can download the transcript, to see the kind of stuff that goes
on, all due to the Vatican. They should be ashamed of themselves,
claiming to be humane.

*Many academics are too cowardly to critise other religions that have carried out just as much if not more harm than the Catholic church*

Nonsense. Every religion and every political movement is critisized.
The Catholic Church, thanks to the Vatican, is more political them
most. The pope thinks everyone should abide by his teachings, not
just his flock of sheep. Those leaders in Rome deserve to be told
what we think of them and why.

No wonder the church benches in the Western world have emptied out
and they need to turn to the third world, where people are less
educated and a bit more gullible, to get Catholic bums on seats.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 3 December 2010 10:23:48 PM
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Vanna

As I understand things, the unavailability of contraception to the poor in the Philippines is solely due to the Catholic hierarchy. Here is another example of the wonderful results of this policy:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1812250,00.html

I often watch animal welfare shows, and commonly see the animal protection officers at the property of a mentally challenged person presiding over a huge population of horrendously neglected animals living in abhorrent filth. It flummoxes me to see a mass of well educated people representing a great and venerable church making decisions which lead to similar consequences for human beings.
Posted by Fester, Friday, 3 December 2010 10:33:28 PM
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Yabby..............No wonder the church benches in the Western world have emptied out
and they need to turn to the third world, where people are less
educated and a bit more gullible, to get Catholic bums on seats.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 3 December 2010 10:23:48 PM

And that's dead on balls accurate. 2000 to 6000 thousand years of using mankind for its own gain...........and now the west ( USA ) one of the biggest religion center's in the world have now seen the light, so to speak. Yes Yabby...........they will be going hunting like always......after those of who cant think for themselves.

One thing the religious groups didn't see coming...........was the evolution of man.

There not helping the poor in these third world lands...........from what Ive read..............their thinking is killing them.

BLUE
Posted by Deep-Blue, Friday, 3 December 2010 10:42:15 PM
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Yabby,

Oh I would think the villification of the Catholic church is just a part of the villification of "evil white male". You have to do that to show that you are truely an academic.

Poverty has many causes, and religion may/may not be a cause of poverty. In fact I have seen countries that were heavily corrupt, and religion was about the only thing keeping most people going on and on.

There are positives and negatives for most religion, but the positives are rarely mentioned by academics (and noted also that most academics never stop asking for more and more money).

Back to the topic, I don't believe it has ever been proven that condoms reduce AIDS. It is a myth that they do.
Posted by vanna, Saturday, 4 December 2010 7:18:30 AM
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<I don't believe it has ever been proven that condoms reduce AIDS. It is a myth that they do.>

Is that so?

http://www.cdc.gov/condomeffectiveness/latex.htm
Posted by Fester, Saturday, 4 December 2010 8:17:28 AM
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It’s very basic, vanna. If bodily fluids don’t mix the chance of infection is reduced.

<<I don't believe it has ever been proven that condoms reduce AIDS. It is a myth that they do.>>

Even if it hadn’t been proven that condoms reduce the chance of infection, it is a classic case of the ‘argument from ignorance’ fallacy to think that therefore, they don’t.
Posted by AJ Philips, Saturday, 4 December 2010 9:20:47 AM
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What about catholic women still living in sin by taking the pill. You would think the popa would relieve them of this guilt. But then again he is a man. He has got to have some power somewhere.
Posted by 579, Saturday, 4 December 2010 2:13:56 PM
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Vanna is correct in noting issues like contraception are used by some to attack the Catholic Church. This is unfortunate because the primary objective of such discussion should be the welfare of human beings, not attacking an organisation you have a difference with.

I think that my mentally challenged person with a myriad of deprived animals living in filth analogy provides a good parallel of how a discussion should be conducted. Note that the animal welfare officers are concerned primarily with the welfare of the animals. Note that they do not attack the mentally challenged owner, but point out the depravity and filth, and its impact on the lives of the animals. Note that arguments of defence along the lines of "the more animals the better" or "to desex my animals would be anti-life" are illogical and unsuccessful.

The reality differs from the analogy in that I do not believe that contraception should be forced upon people, merely that it should be available if it is wanted. Countries like Iran and Thailand are models of the success of this policy. Attempts by governments in developed countries to regulate access to contraception beyond the proviso of public safety would rightly be seen as a denial of self-determination.
Posted by Fester, Sunday, 5 December 2010 11:17:19 AM
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Isn't it more like attacking the outdated rules of the church. Contraception, Drinking, Gambling. These are everyday happenings so whose got the power over who, you will never get to be a saint.
No option but to break the churches rules.
Posted by 579, Sunday, 5 December 2010 11:37:42 AM
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*not attacking an organisation you have a difference with.*

Fester, that depends on the organisation. If a religion preaches
to its volunteer flock, that is one thing. Let them preach.

If they become highly political and try to enforce their
beliefs on others, through political lobbying, with the
aim of changing legislation for all, then they become political
players and as such, are open to the game of politics and
open slather.

The Vatican is extremely good at lobbying, with a great deal
of experience. In the first world we have learned to deal with
their attempts to intrude on peoples lives. Not so in the third
world, where they are still very active, the Philipines for instance.

I see no reason not to criticise an organisation, religious or not,
which wants to force people to go backwards by 100 years.

As a matter of interest, before George Bush was elected, I joined
a Catholic email group, to find out what they were up to. The
moment Bush was elected, members were urged to bombard his office
with letters, emails and phone calls, to change funding for
family planning in the third world. It was very effective.
America changed all the funding policies put in place by Clinton.
Family planning clinics in places like Ethiopia had to close as
a result.

I see no good reason, not to be openly critical of such an organisation or religion
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 5 December 2010 2:12:36 PM
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Fester,

"the preponderance of available epidemiologic studies have found that when used consistently and correctly, condoms are highly effective in preventing the sexual transmission of HIV infection and reduce the risk of other STDs. "

http://www.cdc.gov/condomeffectiveness/latex.htm

Noted that they emphasise "consistently and correctly" throughout.

Unfortunately condoms are not often used consistently and correctly, and when dealing with STD’s such as HIV or AIDS, having many sexual partners while wearing a condom becomes very similar to Russian roulette.

Added to this is the quick deterioration of condoms in hot climate conditions, which means they would have to be transported and stored in air-conditioning. Not likely in many third world countries.

I believe there have been certain agencies completely removed from the Catholic Church that no longer advise the use of condoms because the risks are too great, and the use of condoms just gives people a false sense of security.

I think if someone believes anything said by academics and feminists (both basically the same) then they would have to believe anything said by anyone.
Posted by vanna, Sunday, 5 December 2010 5:13:55 PM
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Yabby

The Catholic Church lobbies for policies which its hierarchy believe to be moral and just. So to attack the hierarchy is to attack people for making what they believe to be moral and just decisions. I think it better to take the stance of the officer with the mentally challenged animal owner, and argue that perhaps the choices being made are not in the best interests of the flock.

At least in the Philippines, the choice will be made by elected representatives around the middle of next year. A poll conducted showed that supporters of universally available reproductive health care outnumbered opponents by 10 to 1, with a quarter of respondents undecided. This prompted one of the clergy to call for a ban on public opinion polls on the subject.

http://www.gmanews.tv/story/207354/cbcp-exec-calls-for-a-stop-to-rh-surveys
Posted by Fester, Sunday, 5 December 2010 5:15:30 PM
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* So to attack the hierarchy is to attack people for making what they believe to be moral and just decisions.*

Ah Fester, but if that hierarchy want to enforce their viewpoint
on everyone legally and not restrict themselves to preaching to
their flocks, then they are fair game, as all involved in politics.

The church is free to restrict themselves to Catholics who actually
care about that hierarchy. That is where the huge difference lies.

If it were up to the Catholic Church, not even divorce would be
allowed. The fact that the Vatican has been attacked and shown
to be for what it is, is one of the reasons why few in the first
world take them seriously anymore. Yes, the papers mention what
the pope said and did, but they do the same for Paris Hilton.

Fact is that many in the first world are not aware of the damage
done in the third world, by Catholic ideology and political
manipulation. Thanks the internet, that is changing, luckily.

This is an argument about basic human rights and seperation of
church and state. If the Catholic Church wants to be politically
active, perhaps they can share a part of the costs, by paying
taxes.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 5 December 2010 6:56:32 PM
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I feel like break dancing after that last post:)

Yabby...........that as to be the post of the 21.

....and this is why.

http://tinyurl.com/24qsgsb

Looks like business is booming.

BLUE
Posted by Deep-Blue, Sunday, 5 December 2010 8:49:34 PM
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Yabby,
I'm reminded of the last line in the article

"If the church does not have anything to say in support of condoms, it should just say nothing at all."

Could be changed somewhat.

If someone (including university academics who follow feminist law like sheep) does not have anything to say in support of a Church, they should say nothing at all.

Would you agree with the above.
Posted by vanna, Monday, 6 December 2010 11:13:55 AM
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Vanna,

Most people are like sheep...

Whether it's "feminist law" or "Catholic doctrine", the majority of souls seek out a flock to graze amongst.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 6 December 2010 11:40:03 AM
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No Vanna, I don't agree with the above. The church, as any church,
can say whatever it likes to its flock of believers. The world is
full or religions and cults, all claiming to be in touch with the
Almighty, only they knowing the truth.

I have no problem with that, for I believe in freedom of religion.
But I also believe in freedom from religion, as not a single one
of them has ever produced subtantiated evidence to back up their
claims. So believers can believe whatever gets them through
the day and night, I really don't care.

It is when those beliefs intrude on the rights of the rest of us,
sometimes enforced legally by religious lobbying and manipulation
of the political process, that I get cranky.

You clearly have a bee in your bonnet about academics. I know
some brilliant ones, who do great work and benefit society. I also
know others who ride the gravy train. As with all things in life,
its not black and white, but shades of grey.

They are free to criticise religions if they wish, that is up to them.

Personally I tend to ignore religions who stick to their roles of
preaching to their flocks, but if they become political, well then
they are fair game.

Deep Blue, thanks for the link. The situation in the Philipines
is a scandal and the church has much to answer for
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 6 December 2010 2:07:43 PM
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Do we listen to and give credibility to every pronouncement from North Korea? No? Good.

Well why does the voice of this old man deserve an ear? He is after all an unelected (in terms of universal suffrage) head of state of a minuscule non-member of the UN whose constitution is that of a theocratic monarchic totalitarian State based on an unproven myth.

If it sounds like North Korea, looks like North Korea, and behaves like North Korea...
Posted by SapperK9, Monday, 6 December 2010 5:13:23 PM
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Well Yabby,
What is good for the goose is good for the gander, or is it?

I think it important that there are groups who challenge the notion that it is completely safe for someone to have sex with lots of different people, as long as they wear a condom.

And I think it important that there are groups who challenge the notion that if a woman gets pregnant, then all she has to do is wander down to the local abortion clinic.

And I think it important that there are groups who challenge the notion that a woman should be able to move from one man to the next, but always taking the man’s children, and always taking the man’s money.

And I think it important that there are groups who challenge the notion that the most satisfying and spiritualistic experience in life, is to get a new hair style, to match the new set of clothes, to match the new car, to match the new look.

Now if that group is Catholic, then so be it, but I would also support any other group that does challenge the above notions.

And yes, if you look closely at the situation, quite a few of the above notions have originated in universities, or are heavily supported by academics in universities.
Posted by vanna, Monday, 6 December 2010 5:30:24 PM
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Vanna

"Unfortunately condoms are not often used consistently and correctly, and when dealing with STD’s such as HIV or AIDS, having many sexual partners while wearing a condom becomes very similar to Russian roulette."

According to a Cochrane review on HIV reduction with condom use:

http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003255.html

"Overall effectiveness, the proportionate reduction in HIV seroconversion with condom use, is approximately 80%."

and

"Because the studies used in this review did not report on the "correctness" of use, namely whether condoms were used correctly and perfectly for each and every act of intercourse, effectiveness and not efficacy is estimated."

So availability of condoms reduces HIV incidence. That is surely a benefit for people. And your concerns about shelf life in tropical climates would surely warrant the investigation of more durable materials instead of rejecting the use of condoms.

In contrast, studies on the effectiveness of solutions proposed by the Catholic Church show them to give inferior health outcomes.
Posted by Fester, Monday, 6 December 2010 5:54:50 PM
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"And I think it important that there are groups who challenge the notion that a woman should be able to move from one man to the next, but always taking the man’s children, and always taking the man’s money."

As opposed to men who abandaon their wives and children at the thought of any responsibility or for 'greener' pastures. The man's money. Aren't the children also his? (As betrayed by your own words) Is it okay for men to move from one women to the next?

Your depth of prejudice knows no bounds vanna. If you are trying to take the moral high ground at least have the decency to acknowledge that women are also human beings and are not the only gender capable of inflicting pain or of wrongdoing. We are human first, men or women second.

Until you confer the same rights on women as you do men in terms of moral judgement, your moral stance is on shaky ground.

(That goes for women too who do not acknowledge rights for men in many speres like child custody)

The trouble is institutions like the Catholic Church have lost some credibility in making judgements on morality when their own house is in need of some order and cleaning. They are in the process of doing this and are to be commended but condoms are not 'evil' nor do they encourage 'evil' practices.

There is some merit in arguing that abstinence is a great protection against spread of disease but in real life condoms will provide 'real' protection. There are many ways to halt the spread of sexually transmitted diseases and condoms are one of them.
Posted by pelican, Monday, 6 December 2010 5:56:52 PM
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Fester,

So.

I can remember reading of a major study of condom use amongst young people in France. It found that using condoms was no better than using nothing at all for preventing pregancy.

As for STDs, the more often someone has sex with different people, the greater the risk of catching or spreading a STD.

Condoms don't make much difference.
Posted by vanna, Monday, 6 December 2010 6:09:49 PM
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Yabby

Tobacco companies lobby governments for decisions that would bring them financial gain. So do oil and coal companies. And so do a myriad of others. Why should the Catholic Church be singled out for exclusion, especially when the Catholic hierarchy believes that they are lobbying for decisions which would benefit humanity?

You and I disagree with many of their policies, but differ in that you would describe Catholicism as an evil empire whereas I believe it better to argue that different choices produce better outcomes for humanity.

The Catholic Church is not a malevolent force like an Imperial Japan or Nazi Germany. It is instead an organisation which has had a substantial role in the formation of our civilisation.
Posted by Fester, Monday, 6 December 2010 6:34:55 PM
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Pelican, a very good post. Vanna wears his bias on his sleeve.

*especially when the Catholic hierarchy believes that they are lobbying for decisions which would benefit humanity?*

Fester, the leadership of the Taliban make the same argument.
So should we stop criticising them?

Nope, I don't blame the whole Catholic Church. I blame the last
pope, JP2. The man clearly carried alot of chips on his shoulders
and the world paid a heavy price for his wierd family planning beliefs.
Most Catholics ignored the teachings, many left the church.
In the third world, they don't have the options that we have in the
first world, so they suffer.

The thing is, the Vatican has now painted itself into a corner and
its hard to dig its way out. It took them a few hundred years to
admit that they were wrong about Galileo. We'll see how many hundred
years it takes them, on this one.

Vanna, enough studies have been done, which show that condoms
are a benefit, when it comes to avoiding the spread of disease.
But education goes along with that.

In Uganda they introduced an effective ABC plan. Abstinence,
be faithfull, condoms. All three were preached and it worked, the
hiv rate started to drop. Along came the Bush regime and a fanatical
Ugandan presidents wife and the condoms bit was dropped. They became
hard to obtain and expensive. The result, a rising HIV rate.

Fact is that even the religious are subject to natural sexual urges
and when they can't contain themselves any longer, its better to
have plan C handy, then no plan at all.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 6 December 2010 7:29:03 PM
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"Condoms don't make much difference."

So why does the Catholic Church make such a fuss about them? I thought one concern was that they increased promiscuity without increasing procreation. Doesn't this suggest that the Catholic Church thinks condoms a contraceptive? If so, they would be in agreement with a great deal of scientific and anecdotal evidence.

Yabby

The Taliban want to encourage the belief that they are being attacked because they are Muslim. They want conflict in Afghanistan to be seen as evil aggressors trying to stop them creating an Islamic Utopia. How much support would they have if people saw the issue as the human impact of the Taliban's actions and not Islam?

I would suggest that on the issue of contraception, an argument about evidence of the human benefit of contraception would trump an argument about the morality of the Catholic hierarchy.
Posted by Fester, Monday, 6 December 2010 8:30:25 PM
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*The Taliban want to encourage the belief that they are being attacked because they are Muslim.*

Fester, the Taliban believe that theirs is the one and only true
intepretation of gods law and we should all live by that law.
The Catholic Church believes exactly the same.

The Taliban use force to impliment their ideology. The Catholic
Church used to use force, but were rolled by the rise of the
secular state. Hopefully the same will eventually happen to Islam.
Its already happening in many places.

As to the argument about contraception, its an argument that you
cannot win, with the Catholic Church. For they claim to be the
ones in touch with the Almighty and they are going to tell you
what is good for you, what is moral and what is not. If you plan
to get to heaven on the Catholic ticket, you play it their way
or not at all. If they have brainwashed you in Catholic belief,
since you were a kiddy, you might well believe them and comply.

The church needs to provide no evidence of their claims, as do
other marketers. You should just have faith and believe.

So no matter how sound your reasoning Fester, it won't wash,
as you arn't in touch with the Almighty, as the pope claims
to be
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 6 December 2010 9:05:27 PM
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Yabby

If the RCC didn't care about argument, then why do they spend so much time engaged in it? In the Philippines they want public opinion polls on the reproductive health bill banned. In Queensland there was the attempt to suggest that an archaic anti-abortion law had public support. On OLO there are many religious contributors willing to argue that their ideas are the most beneficial to humanity.

You might see the RCC as having been rolled by secularism, but it could also be argued that the RCC advanced civilisation to the point where it could move toward secularism. And in a secular world you justify yourself logically, for what sense would it make if the Church advanced a line of reasoning that was demonstrably harmful to humanity? Wouldn't this conflict with the notion of the Church being humanitarian?
Posted by Fester, Monday, 6 December 2010 11:02:36 PM
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Yabby/Pelican..........I just cant believe what Ive just read. The Catholic church is not doing these poor third world people any favors at all.........in-fact their escalating the problem, and giving a new meaning to the word misery for financial gain and blatant control. Condoms are by far the best contraceptive.....and fester....that's your best argument? Oh dear..........and Vanna.....the both of you need to clear your eyes and see the truth.

Anyway just watch this funny vid and you will see the bigger picture, by using life-sized people for the example.

http://tinyurl.com/2bqdp9l

Second and third world countries need reduction and sustainability now............before their whole system collapses.

Religion with its breeding beliefs are doing damage beyond belief............and Yabby/pelican.........I wont post on this subject any longer..........I'll leave it in your very capable hands:) and your welcome, as to the link.

Good luck.

BLUE
Posted by Deep-Blue, Monday, 6 December 2010 11:22:50 PM
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Pelican,

No thanks for your personal lecture. Are you trying to take the high moral ground by giving me a personal lecture.

I think so.

Here is a map of countries and their HIV infection rates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:People_living_with_HIV_AIDS_world_map.PNG

There is no correlation between Catholic countries and rates of HIV infection.

You will also find no correlation between Catholic countries and population replacement levels.

It is simply a trendy thing amongst academics to condem the Catholic church. They might get ticks or stars for it.

However, there has been a very good correlation found amongst black communities in the US that have very low marriage rates, and the rates of STDs, drug addictions, violence, gangs and just about everything else.

Something to think about when contemplating the feminist heaven.
Posted by vanna, Monday, 6 December 2010 11:28:13 PM
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*If the RCC didn't care about argument, then why do they spend so much time engaged in it?*

Fester, the Vatican and many Catholics, will use any argument to
promote and justify their dogma, but at the end of the day, they
consider themselves as the arbiters of what the almighty thinks,
so whatever you argue, you must be wrong and they must be right.

What is humane is not the issue, for deep in the bowels of
Catholic faith, you will find that they consider suffering to
be noble. There are good reasons why Opus Dei use little whips
on themselves.

I've yet to see anywhere, where the Vatican accepts that human
overpopulation, could be harmful to humanity. What I have read
however, is that the Vatican wants to make sure that more little
Catholics are born, as they see the race with Muslims as one of
demographics.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 7 December 2010 8:37:25 AM
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No personal lecture vanna only a response to the predictable tirade of anti-women judgements-it is counterproductive to finding solutions to these 'gender' based issues. I have yet to see in any of your posts acknowledgement that men are human ie. capable of making mistakes. Men are not Gods they are fallible just like women.

Maybe if your passion for men's rights were tempered with some fairness your comments would be taken more seriously.
Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 7 December 2010 4:32:08 PM
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Pelican,
You are still giving lectures.

Find the correlation betweeb the Catholic church and HIV.

EG.
South Africa has the highest rates of HIV in the world, and only 5% Catholic.

After you fail to find any correlation between the Catholic Church and HIV, you can ask yourself why do academics so often single out the Catholic Church and attempt to hold it responsible for HIV.

I know the answer.
Posted by vanna, Tuesday, 7 December 2010 6:20:18 PM
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No - I don't regret to have left this church.

Even after the pope has shown a tiny glimpse of sanity the catholic church leadership is completely anachronistic: Well - the oldest surviving dictatorship in history.

How on earth should I follow the advice of the pope in regards of prevention of diseases and pregnancy by not using condoms? That is worse than ordering muslim females to wear a burka!

Especially in 3rd world countries like Latin America catholics still think that they have to follow the popes recommendations instead of laughing about it and do what is reasonable. Instead they try Knaus Ogino pregnancy prevention - which is risky - or anal sex.

If living to their commitment the catholic leadership cannot have any experience when it comes to sexuality. In this regard they should shut up and leave it to the human being to use the best protection for health and for sustainable family planning without feeling guilty of not following the popes guidelines.

The catholic church should not punish it's community to enjoy sex also for pleasure and not exclusively for reproduction, only because they punish themselves with celibacy. There would be less misuse scandals if the catholic leadership would get rid of this stupid rule, allowing it's leadership members and priests to marry, to have families and to be able to give advice by experience instead of preaching unrealistic theories.

Chris
Posted by chris_ho, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 6:36:02 PM
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Chris_ho,
I am interested in how you reconcile the fact that the world's most populated countries (EG India and China) are not Catholic, and countries with the highest population growth rates (eg Liberia, Burundi, Afghanistan) are not Catholic, while so many countries that have low population growth rates (Eg Italy, Cook Islands) are Catholic.

Also I am interested in how you reconcile the fact that the contries with the highest rates of HIV are not Catholic, while countries with some of the lowest rates of HIV are Catholic.

Another way of putting this, where did you get all your misinformation about Catholics?

What person, school or university taught you all the misinformation about Catholics?
Posted by vanna, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 9:15:11 PM
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Vanna, your analytical skills here are a little simplistic.

The Italian birthrate is low because most Italians told their
church to get lost on the subject and most Italians can afford
family planning, unlike those in the third world.

The Vatican has influenced family planning in non Catholic
countries, by it interference at UN level.

http://www.population-security.org/29-APP3.html

There have been UN conferences about population, both sabotaged
by the church.

In South Africa we have a different problem.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/a-president-in-denial-a-ravaged-nation-denied-hope-460967.html

South Africa is largely a mining country, lots of miners away from
home, with money in their pockets, means lots of sex. Yet their
prez was in complete denial, education was lacking, hiv spread.

In Africa, the church runs many health clinics, commonly funded
by outside sources, development aid etc. They could do wonders
in terms of giving the poor access to family planning, if they wished. Interestingly I've heard that some of these clinics
are starting to distribute condoms, no matter what Rome says.
People on the ground increasingly realise that the problem is
simply too large, to stick your head in the sand, as Rome is
doing.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 8 December 2010 11:08:16 PM
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Hi vanna,

No one taught me any misinformation about catholics. I was a catholic and I left this organisation like many others because this churches structures and the decisions of its management are out of place.

Internal critics like the German Hans Kueng questioning the popes infallibility and other issues was limitted to teach and censored.
There is also a good chance that the too liberal pope John Paul I (Albino Luciani) was helped with some digitalis to die of a heart attack and then an autopsy was not performed, as is customary.

I spent quite some time in Latin America and catholics personally told me about their believes and the personal problems they have with the popes guidelines.

It makes no sense to try to use statistics to make the popes advice look better. There are many other diseases which are preventable with condoms - not only AIDS. Many countries have low AIDS statistics because only a minority ever has been tested for AIDS.

You may not like it - but a dictatorship is defined as an autocratic form of government in which the government is ruled by an individual. To make it look better the roman catholic theology created the dogma of the popes infallibility, claiming that he cannot make errors because he is supported in his decisions by the holy spirit.

That really tops it.

This dogma often is copied and slightly varied by politicians. G.W Bush also claimed that he is guided by his religion in his decisions. What was the result? Two wars based on lies.

No human is infallible - even not the pope.
Posted by chris_ho, Thursday, 9 December 2010 5:52:49 AM
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Chris_ho,
I have no affiliation with the Catholic Church, but I have an interest in mis-information and its dissemination.

There is no correlation between the Catholic Church and population or HIV. For example:- Most Latin Americian countries actually have a population rate below replacement levels, while most countries that are Catholic have a low rate of HIV.

I have found that the main reason for giving the public mis-information is for political reasons, and the main groups most likly to give the public mis-information are either governments or academics in universities.
Posted by vanna, Thursday, 9 December 2010 7:35:43 AM
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