capital punishment lowers us to the level of the psychopath.

All human life is sacred, including - and especially - that of the enemies of reason and compassion.

You seem to have failed to take into account the wishes of those who are to be punished. Given a choice 'twixt life in an institution, life in prison and death, I suspect that the vast majority of people would opt for former two. The human instinct for self-preservation is so powerful that most people will endure lifetimes of misery in the most horrific circumstances (far worse than Australian prisons) rather than end their own life. I agree that psychopaths do not deserve our cruelty, but I consider murder (for that is what is being proposed) far crueller than deprivation of liberty.

That being said, if a 'never to be released' prisoner would rather suicide than endure prison, I think they should have the option of painless medical euthanasia, instead of having to trying to make do with their bedsheets.

"Gardening" is why many of the criminals are there.

Society needs alot a faith in the justice systen, before we can consider capital punishment. Stop false convictions and then consider this option.

I have always thought there was a lot to be said for transportation. Violent serial offenders who have demonstrated they cannot be relied on to follow the constraints of law should be prepared to forego its benefits as well. Set aside a remote island for them, assign a gunboat to guard it, supply some seeds, agricultural equipment and medical supplies, and let them get on with it at a safe distance.

Contributing Author
Bernie Matthews:

Debate on Incarceration and prisons is in short supply on these pages. Bernie Matthews was a contributing author on this subject in the period 2003 until his sudden disappearance from the pages of OLO in 2007. All his contributions are available through OLO archives and are a fruitful read for those interested in juvenile justice and its outcomes and much much more on this interesting social topic

Brian writes
'Science says that a crime is directed by a neural network in the perpetrator's brain, and that this network is hard-wired from birth, not acquired later. We'd rather not think about that.'

Science in the 70's said the earth was in for an ice age. Science until fraud was uncovered recently said that the earth is going to cook. Please include the word 'pseudo' when trying to justify your theory by pseudo science. Crime is simply a choice. It is made easier by those who refuse to lovingly discipline their children. I think that is a lot closer to the mark.

Who is this Science fellow, never heard of him/her...

What does your pseudo-god pseudo-think about this runner?

the point you raise...ends in lets kill-em
its funny ..how we are horified..by death

little realising..dead aint dead
[see the dead...can haunt..the living]
ok those with the same way of thinking
but you know how that goes...[we have all felt...the anger build]

be it some pathetic jeolousy...or some movie anti-hero

thing is our minds ..[when in such a state]..are susesptable..to those in hell...adding to our state..that feds them..they feed off our negativity...build-it up..till in the end...a horrible crime results

being ignorant of how the process..of thought[influx]..really works[how is that working for you?]..not too well..there is seemingly a never ending of horror...the media specialises..in bringing us the gory detail...little realising their the cause[ok contributing..to the cause..of the errant thought..bearing its fruits in a headline]

that puts the thought...into susseptable minds
allowing the truelly vile dead..acces to a living like mind..to realise yet more of their vile...

[the trick would seem to be..in NOT KILLING..these truelly vile]

instead..find ways to turn..their vile..into good
[like..these 25 million..a life../lifers]

these would best be looked after...by giving them...as aid
[or rather their care...]

see how we could pay..their carers..[those needing assistance]..aid
TO LOOK AFTER them..for us...where the whole tribe..KNOWS the vile..and watches their further works...instead of a dead loss..they have someone..to bring-them...income

provided..they really comprehend..
the vile..contained..within them

they apply their rules..and conditions..to the serious..offender

anyhow..when the truelly vile..is embodied..and copntained..evil is minimul..but kill them..you give them...the better means[spiritual]..to do further vile...

[its sad you think..religeon..is built on ignorance...

the dead..can haunt..the living]...killing them..
and..only makes..the problems..[they may be able..to cause..[in-spire]..worse...dont kill in ignorance..[listen to the voice opf love/mercy good/grace

not the vengence..that accends..out of hell
[upon..the weakminded]...

minimise..exposure..to their/our.. thoughts of file
[dont feed the black-dog..of negativity]

find ways
to turn..bad...into good

//The most moral punishment is the one that most fully recognises the perpetrators humanity.//

So says the misguided author, Brian Holden.

Nope.. the most 'moral' punishment is that which is based on "Divine Justice"

"Eye for an Eye" that is 'justice' This is both a prescriptive and limiting approach.

We have replaced 'eye' with set amounts of time in jail, where the only issue is how to work out/calculate the equivalence.

Brian must be a subscriber to "spooky dude" George Soros ultra left wing OPEN SOCIETY INSTITUTE.. gee maybe Brian even got a 'grant' to write this article.

http://www.soros.org/grants

"For anarchists, "crime" can best be described as anti-social acts, or behavior which harms someone else or which invades their personal space. Anarchists argue that the root cause for crime is not some perversity of human nature or "original sin," but is due to the type of society by which people are moulded. For example, anarchists point out that by eliminating private property, crime could be reduced by about 90 percent, since about 90 percent of crime is currently motivated by evils stemming from private property such as poverty, homelessness, unemployment, and alienation.

"Crime", therefore, cannot be divorced from the society within which it occurs. Society, in Emma Goldman's words, gets the criminals it deserves. For example, anarchists do not think it unusual nor unexpected that crime exploded under the pro-free market capitalist regimes of Thatcher and Reagan. Crime, the most obvious symptom of social crisis, took 30 years to double in Britain (from 1 million incidents in 1950 to 2.2 million in 1979). However, between 1979 and 1992 the crime rate more than doubled, exceeding the 5 million mark in 1992. These 13 years were marked by a government firmly committed to the "free market" and "individual responsibility." It was entirely predictable that the social disruption, atomisation of individuals, and increased poverty caused by freeing capitalism from social controls would rip society apart and increase criminal activity."

Treat the cause not the symptoms.

"To make a thief, make an owner, to create crime, create laws"
http://www.infoshop.org/page/AnarchistFAQSectionI5#seci58

Who makes up these blatantly nonsensical feelgoodisms?

<<The most moral punishment is the one that most fully recognises the perpetrators humanity>>

<<All human life is sacred, including - and especially - that of the enemies of reason and compassion>>

<<To make a thief, make an owner, to create crime, create laws>>

Must be those "enemies of reason".

This author is often dreaming up schemes to eliminate humans.

See
Too many are living too long
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=10468

The abortion conundrum
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=5860&page=2

SHRODE

CAPITAL PUNISHMENT LOWERS US TO THE LEVEL OF THE PHYSCOPATH.

Did the punishments metered out by God in some sections of the bible, for example the Great Flood where presumably little children and babies in the womb were deliberately executed by the method of drowning, for the sins of the adults in society, lower God to the level of the Physcopath.

Ted Bundy the notorious serial killer, who was eventually executed did not cause his executors to suddenly turn into Ted Bundy thus becoming overnite serial killers. They simply returned to their homes after the execution was over and continued being the tenderhearted parents and citizens they were before the execution.

The above statement <Capital punishment lowers us to the level of the Physcopath is just noble sounding rubbish and doesn't stand up to detailed analysis.>

<ALL HUMAN LIFE IS SACRED>

Not by the natural laws that exist on this planet it's not. Without the input of modern medicine- vaccination,antibiotics,penicillin,heart disease treatments and so on the lifespan would revert to the natural law of nature on this planet. Which is that no matter how deserving,intelligent or loved you are, your life and the life of others would be a precariously short affair. Before vaccination and antibiotics you'd even be lucky to make it past your childhood. A simple infected scratch would turn into blood poisoning and kill you pretty quickly too.

Following the line of reasoning of the Right to Life, that you must only die at an appointed time by God and so your suffering can not be ended by man, it is hypocritical of these Life at any Price people that they condem medical means of ending a lfe of suffering and yet indulge in every man-made medicine they can find themselves, vaccination,etc to prolong their own life against the natural wishes of God. For who is to say that God didn't mean you to die at an appointed time but you keep using vaccinations and whatever against his will to prevent you dying at your God appointed time.

Who's to say that God didn't mean you to suffer with that dreadful earache or toothache to make you more humble and compassionate and yet you keep using man made medication to relieve it. At the same time you deny the suffering of the dying or seriously handicapped, to be helped by the same so called non-God intervention.

Sounds more like the mixed up thinking of mankind than the intelligence of God to me.

If the right to life argument is going to be used to stop the execution of serious and cruel violent offenders then I thought I would point out the serious flaws and hypocrisy inherent in their arguments.

Have any of you ever been incarcerated? At the approximate age of 6 I was removed from my family and placed in an institution. In the institution I suffered inhuman atrocities meted out by the so called carers. In a Salvation Army boys Institution I was raped by a pedophile staff member on a number of occasions. I attempted to report it but no one would believe, not even my own family. My life became a life of crime, institutions and eventually prisons. All my friends were other people I met in institutions. I was a hardened criminal until I rehabilitated myself about 20 years ago. I am now 61 years of age. Boys homes and girls homes (institutions) are crime schools, and the inmates especially when very young have no choice other than to pursue a life of crime as thats all they learnt. I now work for a living and by my own choice avoid all my past friends so I cannot be encouraged or coerced to return to a life of crime. Where there is life there is hope. No one can be rehabilitated unless they are prepared to do it themselves. The hardest part of rehabilitation is knowing how to start. Its easy for people who do not understand the juvenile justice and prison system and how it works, to want to lock people away or execute them to save tax payer expenses. Many of the adult prison population began in childrens institutions.

Those who want to deliver, a good well balanced example, men who do not want or have an inclination to take advantage of others can set the tune and help those who need direction to steer them through life and deal with the trials & tribulations which the lost and troubled confront. Its a pity some men have spoiled it for the many and the politically correct state sanctioned have taken control and now fail to deliver over time and its tides positive results. Now it must be recognized that the state and women’s only prescriptive care is not the only solve in dealing with societies current misfits. To be partially repaired and given positive drivers this time, the needy must have balanced role models where saving the koala or platypus or global warming is not a distraction or poor substitute for the truth.

churley/cheerfull...KNOW..we each have been given..our life[sentance}..here on earth

some sent for 100 years..to learn lifes lessons

others but a few days..that get aborted]

regardless..we each get our life
[regardless of how long..we THEN get eternal/life..from god]

blaming the flood..on god..is inane
dont you 'get'..how..science explains/..weather?

the..'flood'...has been explained..as the time..the mediteranian sea../flooded

to blame..the in-sanity..[schitsophrenia...by.polar]..mental aberant causal/behaviours..of abraham...[hearing voices..to kill..then not kill..his only begotten son...

is a measure of the human...developing humanity..
[even..through demonic..call of insanity]

its sad...some people..dont get god is love
[if its not love/loving..[gracefull/mercyfull]..

ITS NOT OF..god..[good]

its not complicated..[even a child can learn..good..from that not good]..that not good..isnt*..from good..[god]...

both choices come via outside..inflow..[influx..IN-spiration]..
as the writings of swedenberg..[a scientist]..made clear..

we live in a time..when we know..the rule..thou shalt NOT murder...is true...[its a rule..even a fool can live by]...we each get our life share...[maybe by karma]..or other law

but we live
then die

no exceptions
then eternity..to fullfill...our true life

god is more than fair

if not here
then there

it can be rightfully said....no-one..in their right-mind...
would injure..others...but for good reason

thus we need to realise..there are those..without right/mind
that really hate...huh-mans..thus their..left-mind's pasions rule them

i will quote..to show how it works

[this is extracted..from the officers account..[gone west]..after his death]

“‘I want a drink,’..I cried.
“‘Come along,’..he replied...‘We have one/..here who looks after all who thirst.’

In a moment..I was aware of..a howling mob,..and over them presided a being.[more of hum/later]

How shall I..describe him?
He most closely resembled..a drunken man,..low,bestial,
sodden with drink,..foul in every way.

“There was nothing grand..or majestic about him,
nothing of..what Milton describes of..ruined splendor.

The nearest thing you can ever have seen..is some drink-sodden wretch
thrown out of a..‘pub at closing time.

He leered,..and we all yelled,..‘Drink!..Give us drink!’

“‘Come with me’..he seemed to say;
‘but..you will have to..work first.’

“In a moment we were in..a large,..low drinking den,..somewhere,..I should think,..in the..east end of London.

It was crowded..with low men..and women..and even children.

“Oh,..what a lovely,smell..of gin and whisky there was!
It is true..there was rather too-much..loaded cheap beer,..still,..one can’t be too particular...

“But..when I wanted..to get hold of a glass of beer..which was standing on the bar..I was..quite unable to hold it.

The desire..for it grew stronger..and stronger,..and I seemed to contort myself..with a kind of mad fury...I looked at..the drink guide,[elemental]..and he was laughing and jeering..and mocking me.

At last..he said,..‘Work,..you lazy brute’
“‘How can I?’
“‘Look what the others are doing.’

“Then I noticed that many of..the others were twining themselves..arround..the men and..women who were drinking.

I cannot exactly describe..how they did it,..but
they seemed to/be..insinuating themselves..*into their carcasses.

“Suddenly..I saw a man..who was already fairly tipsy..drop in a kind of drunken stupor....NOTE/next..

At once..a spirit..who had been twining round HIM..
began to fade..*into him..and soon seemed to be..absorbed into him.

then..He was gone,..and lo!
the man staggered..to his feet..and yelled,
‘More beer,..you ––––!’

“I won’t say what.”

continued

The barmaid..gave him some more;..but I could see/that it was not*..the drunk man but..my spirit companion..who was,..as it were,..shining*..out*of..his eyes.

He drank..and drank..and got more..and more violent,
till at length..the chucker-out{bouncer}..seized him by the shoulder.

He..at/once..seized a quart/pot..and felled the man.
The blow was terrific..and split the fellow’s skull.

“Then there was pandemonium.
Many of the drinkers..rushed out shouting..‘Murder.’

With them..in some cases went the spirits..who had twined themselves round them,..but others seemed to cast them off.

“I noticed..for the first time..
that these spirits..were divisible into two groups

—those..who were obviously men..and those who were not.

The latter had various forms,..all more..or less bestial.
I cannot describe them...They were foul,..misshapen things,

not human or..animal,..sometimes composite,..with animal heads and human bodies,..some heads only..some foul monstrosities/with no shape or form,..things one might see in D.T's,..but nowhere-else...

“Meanwhile..the drunkard..who had felled the chucker-out..stood waving his beer pot.

Then I heard a fierce,..wild yell of laughter,
and saw our guide[the elemental]..laughing..and cheering.

[this..type of energy...energizes...'him'..
he feeds off it..only sustaine..'life'..by it
were it to end...so would he]

“We all began to cheer too
why,..I don’t know.

Then the companion..who had taken possession..of the drunkard,
began to disentangle..himself..*from him..as it were.

next..He was out,..and lo!..the man collapsed in a heap.
[next day having no recall..at all..because it was BY..his dream-state...[left-brain..UN-concious..that the spirit..that did it..used]

“‘He’s dead,..I suppose’..I said to a friend.

“‘Oh no,..only drunk,..but he’ll swing for it,I expect,
so we shall..soon..have another to..join our merry throng*.”

“‘But..it was not really..he that did it.’
“‘Of course not;..but who’s going to tell the jury that?

They’ll learn..he’s had a grudge..against..the chucker-out
and has several times sworn..“to do him in.”

[it was this..mindset..[thought..that enabled.."the posession']

Are you going to/witness to the truth?’
He laughed,..and so did..the others.

"Did the punishments metered out by God in some sections of the bible, for example the Great Flood where presumably little children and babies in the womb were deliberately executed by the method of drowning, for the sins of the adults in society, lower God to the level of the Physcopath."
-CHERFUL

Yes, yes they did.

What is the role of imprisonment:

1. To remove the threat from society
2. To mete out punishment for the crime committed (forces the criminal to take responsibility)
3. The hope for some rehabilitation

There are still too many cases where people have been wrongfully imprisoned for crimes they did not commit - some of it due to dodgy police work and legal omissions such as in the WA case against Andrew Mallard. The rate of wrongful imprisonment in the US for death sentence crimes continues to be high.

In the interests of being humane perhaps the 'lifer' could be given the choice between life without parole and death by lethal injection when he/she chooses.

the punishment...for this was hell

I found that he had begun-to dabble in the occult.

He did not know much about it,and his motives were by no means
exalted,being in the main curiosity.
“I haunted him day by day..and watched his every movement.Whenever an
opportunity occurred,I did him an evil turn. ..If he played cards,I told his opponent what/cards he held,and so he lost money.

I put in men’s minds..a vague sense of suspicion and distrust concerning his most innocent acts.

But this sort of thing was not the ultimate aim of my attentions.

“At last my chance came,as I knew it would.He had been endeavoring..‘to get outside his body’..as he described it.

He had no noble aim,and his guide’s power had grown weak..from various causes,..and so when he at length did go out of his body-for about the third time

I came in...‘Ha! Ha!’”
I chuckled,as once more..I found a body clothing me:‘This is like old times.’But it wasn’t.

I found that it was only by the exertion
of my will power that I was able to retain
control of this borrowed carcass.

Anyone with a weaker personality than mine would
soon have been compelled to go out again,
but I was a far more powerful character than
he,and I held it for as long as was necessary.

Then I set to work..to pay off old scores,and
commenced by wrecking..his home.

I seemed to everyone..to be the man himself who all
the time was hanging on,..still attached by the vital cord to the body,..which he..nevertheless..could not re-enter.

I treated his wife so badly that she soon left*him..in disgust, taking their child with her,and instituted divorce proceedings.

I gave rein to all the lusts,such as drink,which could damage his*body,..and dragged his*good name in the gutter by various shady practices...

Yet I took care...

..to keep clear of the law.

“But I had to work quickly..and soon completed my task thus:
I went to a jeweler’s-shop,..stole a quantity of jewels,..murdered the man who owned them,..and managed to get caught..in*my enemy’s body.

I still held on to..that body..until it had been formally
committed on the charge of murder,
and then..in the cell..I left it.

As I did so,..I jeered at the..waiting spirit..who hastened to clothe itself in it..again.

“When the case..came up for trial,
I was there,..though invisible.

The man maintained..that he knew nothing,..of all the facts stated against him,..as of course he didn’t...Though he knew it as a spirit,..he had not..been able to register it..on his physical brain.

His barrister..tried the plea of temporary insanity,..but,
as the judge said..in summing up,..‘Some people/argue that all sin..is insanity,..but we cannot accept..that.

There is far..too much method in..this madness.

The facts borne out..by all the witnesses show that this was only the
culminating..and logical conclusion of those other detestable acts to which..even his wife..in her separation suit has borne witness.’

Then came the usual penalty— death.

“Now my joy was almost complete;..
but gradually various things intervened..to mar it.

He still vowed his innocence..and this
though..it made no difference..to his ultimate fate..

Further,his wife,..who,in spite of his genuine faults,loved him still,..and of course knew him well,.believed him,..when he declared that he had no recollection..of all his various misdeeds;..she accepted the view..that he had been temporarily insane.

“This had the effect of softening his rebellious spirit,..which at first..seemed likely to..drag him*down...at the moment of death..and make*him..join us.

The prison chaplain also believed him..and consoled him,
despite all I could do..to prevent it.

In short,when we..gathered at the execution,
expecting an angry and revengeful spirit..
who would be thus*compelled to join us,..

and thus over whom I,..having a stronger personality,..could dominate,..

alas..we found..quite a band of spirits of light,..who surrounded him with a guard..and kept us at bay..and took him away..

whither..we knew not.

These events..took place in the United-States.

THEN..KARMIC..payback

“Suddenly I became aware of the fact..
that a change was taking place in me.

My psychic body seemed to be slipping from me,..
and,strive as I would,.I could not hold it.

“‘Where am I going? ‘I cried to the evil guide who haunted me.

“‘To Hell,’he replied;..‘don’t you think it’s time?’
“‘But you said..that by doing these things..I should keep nourishing this psychic body?’
“‘For a time,..I said; and so you did...Anyway, you are leaving it now.’

“‘What is this other body..in which I am clothed?’..I cried despairingly.
“‘Your spiritual body,”.he answered,..‘and in it you will really begin to suffer.’

“And as he spoke..I realized..how he gloated over me.
How I loathed him!

But it was so,..and i was in Hell.
[read all about it..in..'gone west']

[end of previous quote]
“‘Well done!’..said the‘Grand Master of the Ceremonies’
as Billy facetiously called him...‘Well,now,..you others,..go and do likewise.’

“The drinking started again,..and after a time..I found in some way I could get a sort of
satisfaction by twining round a man...

It was not exactly drinking,..being more akin to the
satisfaction..one used to get..from smelling alcoholic spirits.

But it was grand..and yet unsatisfactory,..a sort of Dead-Sea..fruit.

So we hung round that pub..for many a day,..and I learnt even to*take possession.,..'

[the affects/dangers..[karma]..
of which you have just read]

“I can’t and won’t..describe how..we got possession,..but it’s something similar to the/way..in which I am now able to write.

You need not fear...I don’t wish to do these things now,..and if I did there,..is a great guardian*spirit..who stands*by you..

anyhow lets ex-plain...re..the base spirit..
[goading..*many..
into these things]

who gain access..by us,'thinking'..those thoughts..they love
[thus i say...
first...'think no evil']

THE..KARMIC..payback...*

“Suddenly..I became aware of the fact..that..a change was taking place..in me.

My psychic_body..seemed to be slipping from me,..
and,..strive as I would,.I could not hold it.

“‘Where am I going?‘I cried to the evil guide..who haunted me.

“‘To Hell,’he replied;..‘don’t you think it’s time?’

“‘But you said..that by doing these things..I should keep nourishing this psychic body?’

“‘For a time,..I said;..and so you did...
Anyway,..you are leaving it..now.’

“‘What is this..other body..in which I am clothed?’..I cried despairingly.
“‘Your spiritual body,”.he answered,..‘and..in it
you will really..begin to suffer.’

“as he spoke..I realized..how he gloated..over me.

How I loathed him!

But it was so,..and i was..in Hell.
[read/about it..in..'gone west']

[end of..previous*quote]
“‘Well done!’..said the..‘Grand Master..of the Ceremonies’
as Billy facetiously..called him...

‘Well,now,..you others,..go..and do likewise.’

“The drinking started again,..and after a time..I found in some way I could get a sort of..satisfaction..by twining round..a man...

It was not..exactly drinking,..being more akin..to the
satisfaction..one used to get..from smelling alcoholic spirits.

But it was grand..
and..yet unsatisfactory,..a sort of Dead-Sea..fruit.

So we hung round that pub..for many a day,..
and I learnt even to*take possession.

[the affects/dangers..[karma]..of which..you have just read]

“I can’t and won’t..describe how..we got possession,..but it’s something similar to..the/way..in which I am now..able to write.

You need not fear...I don’t wish to do these things/now,..
and if I did..there,..is a great guardian*spirit..who stands by you..

anyhow lets ex-plain...re..the base spirit..
[goading many..into these things]

“Now I think I had better explain..who..the drink_guide..is.

He is not an elemental,..nor is he
the figure/form..conjured up..by the thoughts of men.

He is created..by the lust of all..who*desire drink,..i.e...to excess.

If all the world..were to cease to desire..strong drink tomorrow,..he would gradually fade_away...Not at once,..because we..over here..would be able to sustain,..him for a little,..

but as we..should no longer be able to gratify,..even in the shadowy way I have described,..our lust for drink,..in time..he would fade away..for want of mind-sustenance.

So,..too,..with all the lusts we know of.

The old idea..of the seven-deadly sins..
was not so far-out,..but..there are..a jolly sight more*than..seven.

lo..the dupe.like/ation..sorry about that
thats from cutting..bits..off..to make the limit

lets finnish this off..[im over it too]

..“The demons..created by the imagination of men fade..as the men who have created them,..by thinking of them..move,on,..but,..unfortunately,..they are always being re-created by
other men....

these..feed off negative thoughts

Some parsons..do quite a lot..towards peopling Hell..with devils.

While there..they torment,..as we have been taught to believe they would.

intrestingly..Those who have..not*been taught about them..*don’t see*them.’

“The elementals are quite different...They exist of themselves..as much as we do;..How
they originally came into existence..I do not know,..but you must not suppose they are all
bad..just because I speak of them..as such here.

There are..blithe,light-hearted spirits who,..haunt dells and woodland glades— the fairies of our childhood...Innocent children do still occasionally see them,..but,as they are laughed at for their pains,..they cease to believe in them,..and so lose the power...but not their being...[in the forms...created by thoughts]

“There are many types of elementals,..spirits who inhabit the winds,..and so forth...I shall..for the present deal mainly with the evil ones...But even among them,..as among men, there-are..degrees of wickedness...I believe,too, they..are capable of progress,..but exactly how I..cannot say for certain.

“Spirits over..here fall into the following groups: —
“(1)..Spirits of dead men..or animals..those who had..reality..in life].
“(2)..Spirits..who have never been incarnated.;[formed..by thought].
“(3)..Spirits who come..from other planes,etc.

“Of these the discarnate spirits..may be divided as follows: —: .
“(1)..Elementals —good,.bad,..or both good and bad,.
“(2)..Vices personified,..[as like the drink demon..and other vices]
“(3)..Evil spirits created..and sustained..by the thoughts of men,
e.g...the fear/devils..of our childhood-days.

“Now the elementals are the most numerous,..especially on the astral plane,..and most
of those that are there..are bad.

The other non-carnate beings..are met with in the higher-spheres,..and the mixed ones often take an active interest in world affairs.

Some are the/guardian spirits who watch over great nations,..others over societies,and so forth.

“This explains the fact that England..as a nation has a distinct personality,..

quite distinct..from that of any..or all..the separate individuals who form it.

One under god:

I hear what you are saying but on what evidence or on whose authority do you base your theories of a “Nether World” of evil spirits?

none that would satisfy sceptics dan

but suggested reading..comes from a phycologist..
who wrote..30 years amoung the dead
http://new-birth.net/booklet/30_years_among_the_dead.PDF

then there are the writings of swedenberg[swedenburg]
and other writings..such is found at sites like this
http://new-birth.net/books_life_after_death.htm

and yes..i know...its debatable..[mainly for fear of people using it as a defense..in serious crime]...so it will remain debatable..

but let me add that we created..a thought...first..
that attracted..the haunting/..possesion

i recognise..even the terminology we nessesarilly use..sounds suss
but those claiming..jesus..must believe nessesarilly in demons..and such...those claiming mahamoud...believe in jinns..as well as other texts/religeons

i know how insane..the matter sounds..for those who cannot concieve these things..but so to is the difficulty of conception...we hold for those loving their vile..[who get off..on hurting others]

anyhow...the simple cure..is fear no evil..[these beings feed off various fears and lusts]...especially those done in excess..or hurtfull or dangerouse..[ie likely to hurt..those haunted by demonic..type thoughts..into deeds]

im not saying all crime..is such...[we after all..need to provide the needed thought/will..that invites*..further vile]..

ie..we need to have..the vile thought..that lets them in...FIRST

dont give it..[evil]..any thought..
and..they simply speaking..cant..'get-in'

regardless of the why...how etc..the suggested cure[murder]....is the absolutly worse..thing we can do..to those..really bad...

[in fact..'it'..[the..lol..cure]..
comes..from*..hell]

as the quotes reveal..they soon realise ways..and..means..to do further mayhem...[here]...admittedly..only via their own..likeminded...wanna be sinners..thinking..it first

but never-the-less..killing them..dont fix ..the problem

we..must find ways/..means..to turn..their vile..into good
not just put-them/down...because..dead aint dead

and locking them away...[with others]..who also love vile..is only sharing their knowings...feeding...*their vile thoughts..[attractant*}

they need to be sepperated...into places
where they dont get the oppertuinity/will/means..to hurt others...+..learn..not*to..think-it..in the..first place..

but..in the end...we can only do that..we see others do...
if..they dont know..true selfless love
cant see..its fruits

why they should not..give-in_to..evil-desires...
how thus..can they..know..[find..the will...to_do_better]

many criminals are sleep deprived...or otherwise...conciously comprimised..[by drugs/booze or other additive obsessions]

i think most parents...have had expiences with a cranky child...
[because of lack of sleep]..clearly...it is an important issue

follow..in the footsteps..of Tibetan monks..who master lucid dreaming
as a spiritual illumination stepping stone..on the path to enlightenment.
http://www.dreams.ca/dreams.htm

Dreams are..a very important part of spiritual development...
Eckankar values dreams as irreplaceable tools..for self discovery...

It is believed that..by recording and understanding dreams..the dreamer gains awareness..and increases..in consciousness.

In the dream state..it is possible to work out karma,..gain insight/into daily problems,..see a glimpse of the future,..connect to spiritual beings..(including deceased loved ones),..travel to inner planes..such as the Astral,..Causal..Mental,..and Etheric,..and to connect to our own souls.

Dreams are considered..real experiences..and are highly valued.

The Indian mathematician..Srinivas Ramanujan..claimed that every one..of his remarkable discoveries..came to him in dreams,..as gifts from the Hindu goddess Namagiri.

Seventy-two..of 83 Nobel laureates surveyed,..Barrett reports,..credited intuition in their success...Their hunches,..connections..made below the threshold for awareness,..she suggests,..may manifest themselves..as visual imagery in their dreams.
http://www.intuitive-connections.net/2002/book-committee.htm

Sports pages..often tell of athletes..who credit winning tactics..to their dreams

http://www.asdreams.org/journal/articles/barrett3-2.htm

In summary,..there remain many questions about the mechanism..of problem solving in dreams and..about the quality of these solutions..compared with waking ones.

It is clear,..however,..that dream-interested persons..incubating problems
can often dream..what they feel to be solutions..of which they are not consciously aware and that..such dreams can provide them considerable personal..satisfaction
http://health.howstuffworks.com/mental-health/sleep/dreams/dream3.htm

The latest ideas on REM sleep..are associated with learning*.

Researchers are trying to determine..the effects that REM sleep..and the lack of REM sleep have..on learning certain types of skills-..usually physical skills rather than rote memory.

This connection seems strong..in some respects..due to the fact
that infants..and toddlers experience..much more REM sleep than adults.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/mental-health/sleep/dreams/dream2.htm

A dream is a succession of images,..sounds..or emotions
that the mind experiences during sleep..

The content..and purpose of dreams are not fully understood,..though they have been a topic of speculation..and interest throughout recorded history...The scientific study of dreams is known as oneirology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream

Sigmund Freud believed that dreams..are subject to psychoanalysis..just like all other parts of the human psyche...Some basic components..of the Freudian dream theory..include the following:

1...Dreams are NOT..meaningless..or random events.

2...All dreams have causes,..which generally come from..emotionally charged life events.

3...The themes..and issues that are experienced..in dreams are so emotionally charged..and threatening to the ego..that the individual cannot deal with them..directly.

4...The dream is a façade which..can cause or resolve..anxiety or guilt..provoking thoughts..and feelings.

5...In order to understand the dream,..the individual must attempt..to look past the façade and..discover the real issue..in the dream.

6..Dream analysis..is difficult because of resistance..on the part of..the dreamer.

i would continue..this conversation...but have allready offered enough

there are clues..to the thinking person

its clear...there is more than this physical...'waking life'
mankind hasnt even yet comprehended the full importance of dreaming

but the consolation is..in our next life..our full memory of every dream..is recalled...[for good or ill]...my current dreams..seem tobe mainly learning other languages...and unraveling complex wads of imfo

im sure if you recalled your dreaming..you would see you too are doing much...

when the world thinks..your only dreaming

anyhow..its time for a nap
got work to be doing

the punishment..is the crime
you cant beat..the instant karma...of your dreaming

lets go some more quotes

from
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Wanderer_a4.pdf

God..is not a God of the dead..but of the living,
for all/things are alive..for evermore.

Life is everywhere..and in everything;
even the dull earth..and the hard rocks..are composed of..living germs,..each living..according to its own degree.

The very air we breathe and the..boundless ether of universal space are full of life,..and there is not one thought we think..but lives for good or..ill,

not one act..whose image shall not live..to torture..or to solace the soul..in the days of its release..from its..incarnation in an earthly form.

Life is..*in all things,..and God is the central core sustaining/Life..of All."

Hassein paused,..then in a calmer voice
he said to me:.."Look yonder!..What would you say those things..were?"

He pointed to..what seemed to me at first..a mass of spirit forms which came sweeping towards us..as..though blown by a strong wind.

As they came near..I saw they were evidently..soulless astral envelopes,..

Now look,"..said he,.."you will observe this is somewhat like..a great living doll.

It is the result of..countless little living germs..which man is continually throwing off..from his earthly body,..emanations solely
of his animal..or lower life,

material enough..when brought into contact..with the magnetic forces of the astral-plane,..to form into these..imitations of earthly men and women,..and immaterial enough..to be invisible to/man's purely material sight,

although a..very small degree of clairvoyant power..would enable him to see..them...A stronger and higher degree..of clairvoyant power would enable him to see,..as you do,..that this is not/a true spirit envelope,..since the soul principle..is wanting;

and a yet higher degree of clairvoyant power..would show..that a soul has never been..*in..this form,..and that it has never had a conscious existence..as a soul's..astral envelope.

"Amongst ordinary clairvoyants..the subject of astral spirits..is not studied sufficiently to develop..these degrees of soul-sight,..

therefore few clairvoyants..in your earthly country..could tell you..whether this..was a/true soul-enveloping..astral form..or one from..which..the soul had departed,

or yet again..one in which the soul
had never been present..in it..at all...[a thought-form]

Presently..I shall show..you an experiment..with this astral form,

I may tell you..that atoms..may-be..classed..under different headings,..
and that..each class..will have..a special attraction..for others..of its own*..kind;

thus vegetable_atoms..will be attracted
together..to form astral trees..and plants,

while animal atoms..will form..into the semblance*..of beasts..birds,
etc.,

and human_atoms..into men..and women's forms.

In some cases,..where the human beings..from whom
the atoms come..are very low in the scale of humanity..and nearly akin to animals,..their atoms will blend..with those of the lower forms of life..

and create grotesque horrible creatures..which resemble at once animals and men,..and having been seen..by clairvoyants in a semi-trance condition are described as..nightmare/visions.

In the earth spheres..an immense amount of these living atoms are thrown off continually..from man's..lower..or animal life,..and these sustain and renew the astral forms,..but were we to transport one of these*shells..to a planet whose spheres had been spiritualized..beyond the stage of material life,

or in other words/freed..from all these lower germs,the astrals could not exist,..they would become like a noxious vapor..and be
blown away.

These astrals being,..as I have said,..created from the cloud masses of human atoms,..and never having been the envelope..of any*soul,..are very little more permanent..in their nature..than the frost flowers/on a window pane,

unless the power..of some higher intelligence
acts upon them..to intensify their vitality..and prolong their existence.

They are,..as you will see,..expressionless and like wax dolls..in appearance,..and readily lend themselves..to receive any individuality..stamped upon them,..hence their use in ancient times by magicians..and others.

Astral atoms,..whether of treesplants,animals,..or human beings,
must not be confounded with the true..spirit..or soul-clothing atoms which constitute..the real spirit world..and its inhabitants.

Astrals of every kind
are the intermediate degree of materiality..between the gross matter of earth..and the more etherealized matter of the spirit world,

and we talk of a soul..clothed in its astral envelope..to express that earth-bound..condition in which it is too refined..[just as the spirit..is clothed..in the soul}..

too refined..or immaterial for earth existence,
and too grossly clad..to ascend into the..spirit world of the higher spheres,..or to descend..to those of the lower."

"Then you mean..that a spirit..even in the lowest sphere is more spiritualized..as regards its body than an/earth-bound spirit?"

"Certainly I do...The astral...

continues