jefferson,

I couldn't agree more. If women are equal with men then why do they need endless women's officers, Offices for the Status of Women, women's policies and so on? Surely, the very existence of all these bodies constantly propping up women (and keeping men in their place), supporting their egos and policing anyone who dares question the current fashionista proves that men and women are not equal.

I have posted before: even a prominent feminist has said if it were up to women we'd all still be living in caves. And of course it was men who put men on the moon. If it were up to women we'd still be empathising with one another around our campfires.

The fact that examples like these need to be even raised is frightening. I'll consider women as equal to men when women put women on the moon. Or better yet, men beat women to the mooon so why don't women put women on mars?

Hey Individual,
I'm curious; how does discussing issues on OLO fit into your philosophy of "male + female, get down and boogy, nuttin more to it"?
Dane, I wonder how many of those males in the NASA program were born, raised and encouraged by women?

Isn't it it interesting how smugly complacent Suzeonline and samsung sound?

Grim

Are you seriously trying to say that men put men on the moon because they were 'encouraged' by women?

From the Copernican revolution to Newtonian physics; the scientific revolution to the industrial and technological revolutions: the intellectual groundwork layed by the Reformation and the Enlightenment. We have NASA scientists standing on the shoulders of hundreds of years of western intellectual development and all you have to say is that women 'encouraged' their men.

This is where our civilisation has come.

No Dane, all I have to say (and have said) is being equal does not mean being the same.
Indeed, the only 'equality' every human being shares is in the fact that not one of us had any choice in being who we are.
At least, I know I didn't choose my natural parents. Did you?
If Einstein had a right to be proud of his achievements, couldn't his parents have been just as proud?
After all it would have been impossible to achieve anything without them.
I'm quite certain if you traced Einstein's ancestry back 500 generations, you would be just as likely to find the same average number of murderers, rapists, conmen and wastrels as in any other. Yet they were all just as necessary to Einstein's birth -and his resultant observations- as his mother was.
You appear to be proud of the fact that the NASA scientists are (predominantly) men. Why? Are you one of them? If not, it is very likely you are no closer to them genetically than any woman near you.
And even if you are close to those scientists genetically, so what? It wasn't your choice, or theirs.

Women have not achieved the same as men thus far - they have only been afforded equal status and opportunity since the 80s. But in that time women have also made contributions in science, medicine and in business entrepreneurship. It is not a competition. That is the problem with some of you blokes, you see an achievement by a woman as a score against men. Where does that come from? We are not in a competition we are complementary and the same - human first everything else second.

I don't see the point in diminishing the traditional role of women in the home ie. supporting their families/husbands. It seems incongruous with what you seem to want - a return to the 'utopia' of the past.

Perhaps if the role of women had not been so diminished the nature of feminism would have been different and we would not be striving to be the same as men by adopting some of their more aggressive characteristics; instead promoting some of the more feminine characteristics as worthy.

I don't think men (or women) really know what they want half the time.