Excellent piece. It is odd how the “pro-choice” movement censors debate and tries to shutdown democracy. Guess, they never were for choice to begin with.

The majority of media are secular and lack any decent morals. They prefer to paint anyone who stands for decency and against the murder of unborn as bigots. When facts prove them wrong they are silent. We see that with much of the leftist media having egg all over their face with the global warming scam. If it was 5 people trying to save the turtle the ABC would of been there in numbers.

Runner: I couldn’t agree more. The media is “never wrong” and turtles are more valuable than inconvenient babies with little fingernails. The Australian Associated Press (APP) appears to be an activist group – and have thrown journalistic ethics under the bus.

Sheesh, so the free press did not just fall for the activities of
a paid for lobby group, which seemingly has a clear agenda to
influence public policy?

Tutt-tutt, just shows that the press is free after all

So the anti abortion group has been reduced to a rag tag group of religious zealots on the fringe of society.

As society has become largely secular and does not share your religious dogma (morals according to runner) you are regarded by the majority as at best quaint, but of no consequence.

Most people would be more interested in the weather.

Good article. The lack of interest by the media in issues like this is astounding really. I don't think it has anything to do a distaste for religious views as they constantly ask the opinion of the church leaders on many other issues which have nothing to do with religion, including euthanasia, and shopping hours in western Australia. I cannot believe that there is virtually no debate on this issue. In response to Shadow minister, the killing of unborn babies has much to do with religious zealotry as killing born babies. Absolutely nothing. It is time society re-examined this issue and realised that the justifications that once applied to abortion are no longer relevant.

Well, I attended.

No one paid for me to attend.

I attended because 20,000 abortions each year in this state is obscene and if only the religious care, so be it. This is an issue that will not go away.

This is not a place for anyone to be righteous about anything. We are all entirely mortal and saturated with fear, knowing that we can be snuffed in any moment, and that everybody eventually dies, and quite often in a wretched condition.

There will always be abortions, and there always was. As such we have no choice but to deal with this situation with real intelligence, and provide compassionate support for women who for whatever reason choose to have one.

Part of the horrible mystery around abortions is associated with the failure to understand the condition of the unborn.

Even infants once they are born are in a chaos of perception. They only gradually develop their self-sense, social adaptation and self-idea.

But we place the design of our own often dim-witted conventional perceptions on fetuses and infants and we thus cannot tolerate the idea that they are essentially involved in a process of sacrifice, as are all human and biological beings. We cannot tolerate the idea that we too, must be and are a sacrifice. Billions of biological deaths occur every day, and yet Life keeps arising.

Wisdom (and hence Compassion) begins when we are not afraid of all these deaths and presume that everything conditional is in chaos. And that Unconditional Existence is our Inherent Condition prior to all of these births and deaths.

We need, at heart, to be free of the fear that is invoked when we see all the cycles of being, everyone dying. See all of that in chaos. See that conditional existence is a sacrifice. This will release us from the fear associated with mortality and the witnessing the mortality of others and the mortal effects that every breath has. It will release you from the mortal EFFECTS that you HAVE on everything, everyone. You eat and you are being eaten by Life. There is no end to it. Everything is a feast.

the secular media - those champions of 'free speech' and 'choice' - should be the last mob to complain about biases.

The day will come when abortion and euthanasia will be seen as this generation's equivalent to the question of slavery and its emancipation,
as last generation's was to the holocaust and folks like David Irving who are so fond of denying historical truths like that.

But when it comes to the unmitigated holocaust of millions of defenceless unborn, where are these champions of human rights?

Oh, right, championing the rights of turtles, whales, dolphins and trees, anything but our species, it seems.

But we live in a profoundly sub-human essentially psychotic "culture".
Most of right-wing religiosity is a form of psychosis. Indeed right-wing religionists represent the leading edge of our now collective psychosis.

So what to do about abortion? And by extension the body and its emotional-sexual patterning.

The positive moral rightness of human self-responsibility should include, among all the many practical elements of its totality, the PERSONAL (and NOT merely LEGALLY-ENFORCED)responsibility to take genuine care and direct physical precaution to avoid unwanted pregnancies, medically non-necessary abortions.

Of course for such to be truly effective humankind must altogether, and one at a time, voluntarily enter a process of profound psycho-physical education and re-education.

An education which will necessarily replace the sex and body negative puritanical double-mindedness that mis-informs our entire culture in general, and self-righteous right-wing religionists in particular.

I think pro-choicers worry that pro-life Christians are trying to tell women what they can do with their own bodies. Wrong, we're just trying to save your own child so that he or she may live a long, healthy and happy life.

*I think pro-choicers worry that pro-life Christians are trying to tell women what they can do with their own bodies.*

Well they are. We can't have all that "evil" fornication going on,
just ask runner.

Given half a chance, the Catholic Church would control the lot,
from denying you divorce, as they do in other parts of the world,
to banning most contraceptives. They want control!

If the Christian lobby is so concerned about babies, why arn't
they off in India, saving starving thinking, feeling, born babies?
I don't know of a single poster here who has sold their computer
to save another starving baby in India.

So they prefer to go on about a foetus, which has no functioning,
thinking, feeling brain. Which is little more then a clump of cells.
Which the mother should decide, if she wants to raise or not,
after all, she has about 400 chances in life and she can't raise them
all.

The world is overflowing with hungry, starving, unwanted babies
and they worry about a clump of cells.

Clearly their agenda is a very different one, as their actions
prove.

"So they prefer to go on about a foetus, which has no functioning,
thinking, feeling brain. Which is little more then a clump of cells.
Which the mother should decide...."
you might want to ask Melissa Ohden this question, her medical records show 'Saline Abortion that was unsuccessful' read her story with an open mind....

Shrode: There are currently about 7 billion human beings on the planet. The human species is not about to go extinct because of abortion.In fact it is increasing every day.

Such unprecendented human numbers are the primary cause of species extinction, past present and future. And of all of our environmental problems.

Plus if you think babies and children were treated kindly in days past then why not check out the work of Lloyd deMause whose work is available at http://psychohistory.com

Childhood has been an unrelenting brutalized horror in most times and places.
And still is in most parts of the world

Yabby you said: “Sheesh, so the free press did not just fall for the activities of a paid for lobby group, which seemingly has a clear agenda to influence public policy?”

Excuse me. Their agenda is to save lives just as the anti-slavery movement (also founded by Christians) had an agenda. Apparently, only whales and butterflies are worth saving in your world Yabby.

You’re missing the point, the media is always reporting on leftwing lobby groups (even at prolife events). Did you read the article? Moreover, the ABC is not free, but a taxpayer funded operation that needs to provide balance, to the taxpayers that keep it alive.

*Excuse me. Their agenda is to save lives just as the anti-slavery movement (also founded by Christians) had an agenda.*

Sorry, history buff, but that one will not work for you.

Firstly slaves were thinking, feeling, aware people, a foetus is
no such thing. Just like an acorn is not an oak tree.

Potential people yes, but so are the ova and billions of sperms,
flushed down our toilets, every single minute.

Secondy, back in the days of slavery, most people were Xtians and
most of them kept slaves. AFAIK neither the Koran nor the bible
tells us that slavery is evil. Can you quote the verse?

If you are a history buff, then you should know a bit about history,
not try to distort it to suit your agenda.

For just a moment, can we forget about the morality issue and focus on the practical reality?

Ok, so lets imagine the pro-life lobby groups have their way. What precisely is the goal?

I'm going to assume that it's to have abortion made illegal. If that is not the goal, and the goal is merely to affect cultural change and encourage people to enter more stable, committed relationships and avoid abortions, then more power to you. Go for it.

If however, the goal is indeed to have it made illegal, then let us consider this outcome for a moment.

Laws are applied universally. Whilst we can take into account circumstance, we aren't allowed to make judgements on people's life choices. That can become an issue in sentencing, but not on guilt or innocence.
So whilst judges have been known to consider tragic circumstances when passing sentence, that's not an issue of guilt or innocence.

Now, lets imagine that abortion is now illegal.

"Hooray" you think. We saved the *babies*. However, abortions have existed for thousands of years. Having a baby represents a great deal of pain (granted, as does an abortion at times but if caught early, much less than giving birth).

Many women who don't want children, are not going to go through with it. Many of them will attempt to procure abortions illegally. There will be more that don't, but I'll get to that.

So - illegal abortions. The fact that it's illegal means that there is no oversight. No standards. Also, the poorer you are, the poorer the quality.

Continued:

So the worst case scenario: poor, desperate women, possibly fearing violent repercussions from spouses (or fathers), if it is determined that they are pregnant find themselves undergoing dangerous procedures. If caught, they then find themselves appearing before a court and now having a criminal record.

If I was a juror I'd have to excuse myself from the case, because there's no way in hell I'd lump some woman with that even if they were clearly guilty.

Granted, that's the worse case scenario.

Another scenario - well paid people finding safe abortions, yet still facing the possibility of conviction - for making a very difficult choice. A choice that has been decided by people with totally different moral and political beliefs.

Then, there is the final possibility: the woman goes ahead and gives birth. They don't want this child. They have been forced to lie on a table, undergo extreme pain and give birth anyway.

In any other circumstance, forcing someone to undergo pain is rightly considered assault.

This is the reality here. The only way this can be morally justified is when you decide that these woman don't deserve to have the choice, because they had sex.

Considering that women today enjoy more rights than those in the 1940s, very few would accept this view of women's rights and responsibilities.

And damn right that is too.

Which doesn't even scratch the surface of the fact that a foetus isn't a baby. One day, it may be. But a child isn't an adult, and a teenager isn't a pensioner.

And foetuses are indeed different. They can't breathe yet, just like a toddler can't drive a car.

And, they are still part of their mother's body.

Mother's body.

Let me just say that phrase again:

"Mother's body."

Case closed.

This issue does need more discussion from both sides of the arena. And incredibly truthful reporting.

I identify as Pro-Choice because I believe that I have no right to tell another woman that she must have a child she does not feel ready to parent. Plain and simple. It is not for me to judge her for that choice as it is impossible to place myself in her shoes. Having said this, I would hesitate to label myself as "Pro-Abortion". I am not. And do not think anyone really is at the core of things.

Susan Faludi said "All of women's aspirations, whether for education, work or any form of self-determination, ultimately rest on their ability to decide whether and when to bear children". And I believe that this to be true. Particularly for women in third world nations who have a lot more to consider in this regard than we fortunate Westerners.

This is more than a question of morality or "get your rosaries off my ovaries", it is a matter of compassion and sensibility.

It would be nice if abortion were not a necessity, but in some cases, it is, because contraception fails. I would be happier with the anti-choice movement if they were universally in favour of contraception, but many are not, and therefore they lack all credibility in pressing this particular case. Having said that, the press should have reported an event that drew 5000 people. We live in a democracy after all and all sides and opinions need to be reported.

TRTL along with the supporters of the child killing industry arrogantly redefine what constitutes a human being. He write 'Which doesn't even scratch the surface of the fact that a foetus isn't a baby.' Take a closer look TRTL. Technology today will show you who and what is being butchered. Oh that's right its all about women's rights (how selfish).

I love it when a fringe group claims the "right" to be taken seriously by everyone else and this is perceived as "bias". Sorry folks, could you please consider that others have considered this issue and have come to a different conclusion to your own? Asking the Law to criminalise women for doing a difficult, but sometimes lesser of all evils is a pretty low act in my opinion.
Also while you winge on about bias, have you ever stopped to consider that many, many gatherings were also not reported that day. Did you realise that the media is largely a publicity machine and does not generally push fringe ideas unless paid for? do you know how many "Leftist" ideas are constantly ignored? (Internet censorship being one of them. Huge protests there but no media coverage.)
Did you know that God is the biggest baby killer of all? Most foetuses don't make it to term. This is a natural "quality control" process that is quite brutal in terms of "killing babies". Human induced abortions are probably minimal compared to God's abortion rate. I only mention this because religion seems to be a big factor in this sort of sticky beak issue.
We have hundreds of adults dying due to stupid prohibition laws yet "sending messages" is deemed more important than real lives. Seems babies are valuable...until they grow up. How about caring for humans for their entire life cycle instead of just when they are part of a woman?
Hey runner, I don't see you protesting against the deaths caused by the Catholic church in Africa. By lying about condoms they have killed millions by ignorance and aids. Real people too, not proto-human embryos. Once again, why do these folk care about babies yet abuse adults so callously?
This appears to me be "fluffy bunny" morality.

Runner, five simple questions for you to answer.

Is a child an elderly person?

Is a toddler an adult?

Is a baby a teenager?

Is a cat a dog?

It would be very difficult to discuss different life-stages if we start saying they are all the same.

"The teenager has just soiled his nappies" would give the wrong message, wouldn't it?

Or "the adult has just entered his second trimester."

If you have re-defined a foetus as being the same as a baby, what is the formal definition of those things that grow inside a woman's uterus, but can't breathe yet?

Because we've always used the definition 'foetus'.

If the pro-life movement has re-defined the term 'baby' in order to distort the argument and make emotional appeals (because it's harder to get people worked up over foetuses than babies) then for the fifth question, kindly give me some new scientific nomenclature (something that describes a foetus but not a baby, because any rational person can see there are differences) so I can discuss the issue logically, without having to resort to silliness like accusing people of murder (a specific crime, with definitions) or 'earth worshippers' (I don't even know what that means. I haven't seen any shrines made of soil).

Thanks.

Rob.
We mustn't forget, abortion is but one vehicle used by anti-choice zealots and lobbyists to enforce archaic ideals and oppressive outmoded standards upon a society that has progressed far beyond such psychosocial oppression.

Whether it's the choice over ones passing, education, love life, sexual identity, substance use, viewing habits, reading choices, recreation, parenting, work ethic... indeed almost all facets of life, it is the projection of insecurity and enforcement of constraint that drives them.

Why would the media give oxygen to any activist group that is globally linked to murder, harassment, threats, lies and abuse? That revels in anti-science conspiracies? Denies climate change science? Plots against established human rights, evolutionary theory and documented history? Supports the concept of homosexuality as "a disease or detachment disorder"? That supports publication of junk 'science', claiming higher levels of violence in same sex relationships [see ACL website]?

That includes the likes of Neal Horsley who bragged about having sex with a mule, other animals, a watermelon, indeed, "anything that was wet and warm".

On reading the bible, there is nothing Christian about anti-choice. Yet if we consider this Great Lie that reinvents itself generation by generation, to perpetuate the myth of a death defying, purportedly magic Jew, perhaps this is the real face of Christianity. A political force content to sink to any level to achieve and maintain social privilege at the expense of freedom, free thought and ultimately, the free world.

Shameful indeed.

funny or sadly enough TRTL you would be charged with murder if you killed a 'foetus' in a mothers womb. All the 'scientific' twisting of truth in the world does not justify this mongrel act.

What group had the placard "I F*ed Jesus", I wonder? What's their message?
I once heard a very disillusioned ex nun say she'd been f*ed by Jesus, that made a kind of sense.

I doubt that anyone has an abortion without a very good reason - and who has the right to decide if a woman can carry through a pregnancy or not, and properly provide for her child, other than the woman concerned?

I would be much more impressed by these people if they did anything to assist the children born into misery, poverty and abuse, as well as defending the unborn. But that's too hard isn't it. Much easier to find some woman to victimise because she can't continue with a pregnancy for reasons most of these people can't even begin to understand.

What are these groups willing to do to assist the women, and the babies they insist must be born? Like the old Japanese tradition - if you save someone's life you are forever responsible for it. Are you people willing to adopt all these babies and give them good homes and everything they deserve in life?

Nobody should be forced to have an abortion and nobody should be forced not to, either. People are capable of making their own decisions about these things and living with the consequences - why do these groups need to infantalise others by telling them what they can and can't do?

Briar rose brings out the same dishonest emotional lies peddled by supporters of this crime

'I would be much more impressed by these people if they did anything to assist the children born into misery, poverty and abuse, '

See how long the adoption list is Briar before posting your dogma.

Runner, exactly what do you want?

Do you want abortion to be made illegal again?

How will you 'force' a woman to go though with a pregnancy she doesn't want?
Exactly how?

In any case, I really don't see why we are bringing up the topic of abortion again.
The law in Australia says that ABORTION IS LEGAL.

The vast majority of people in Australia want abortion to remain legal.

Pro-choice advocates have already won this fight guys... so you need to get over it and move on now, because it will be a cold day in hell before that decision is ever overturned.

suzionline

'Runner, exactly what do you want? '

Start with a little honesty rather than your selfish misleading dogma dressed up in pseudo science.

*'Runner, exactly what do you want? '*

Oh we know what runner wants, he has posted enough over the years,
to make it quite clear.

He wants all that evil secular fornicating to stop and that we
should accept his cult's interpretation of the bible, as the only
true and correct one.

That is a fair question runner.

What is it exactly that you want from the system? If you got your way and abortion was illegal how would you enforce it? What would the penalty be for a woman who sought an illegal abortion? Would her male partner also be charged as an accessory if he had knowledge or aided and abeted the abortion? What sort of supports should society prepare for in the event that we have a surge in unwanted babies and single parents?

These are valid questions. Have you thought about the implications of this law?

As a person of religious conviction I would like to ask my fellow "Holy Rollers" who are such zealous anti-abortionists to quote me Biblical references to back their attitudes.

Whilst I find the idea of destroying a potential life rather sad, I am not going to tell any woman what she may or may not do if caught in a situation where she finds the idea of continuing a pregnancy intolerable. Whatever the reason! Whether it be her health, a defective foetus, result of rape, contraceptive failure or just plain "selfishness" - it's something that person has to deal with and maybe answer for and maybe not, but it's nobody else's concern.

The only biblical reference to abortion I have found is in the book of Exodus, Chapter 21, where it is written that if a pregnant woman is injured as a result of a deliberate or negligent act on the part of another party and miscarriage follows, her husband can seek redress in the form of a fine determined by the judges. However should the woman die as result then the life for a life penalty applied. So obviously not a lot of value placed on the unborn according to the old laws of God.

If others can direct me to passages which contradict this - please do. Otherwise I say "Judge not ..." It's Gods job remember.

I direct some of my resources into trying to help children born into circumstances of privation and suffering. If those people hell bent on "saving the foetuses" put their energies into doing more for the children already here, it would be a better world. As for any concerns about the continuation of the species - that's not looking like a problem anytime soon is it? Bring on decriminalisation of induced abortion and let those who oppose practice according to their beliefs and those who don't - likewise.

Runner <"Start with a little honesty rather than your selfish misleading dogma dressed up in pseudo science."

Honesty about what Runner?

How am I being selfish when you are the one trying to force your views on women?

I didn't mention any sort of science in my comment above did I?

Exactly what do you want?

Firesnake: Love your work.
divine_msn: Thanks for demonstrating Christianity does not necessarily equal irrational authoritarianism. By my readings Christ was quite a reasonable person...but Christians are sometimes another story!
runner: Thanks for the rants. Perhaps you could answer the reasonable questions in a reasonable manner?

Pelican and other

What is it exactly that you want from the system?
I want a system that saves lives not kills lives. Again don't give me that 'scientific' rubbish that a baby is not a baby by calling it something else. Women should be made to look at what they are having killed. Technology today will show clearly what is being murdered.

If you got your way and abortion was illegal how would you enforce it? I would create laws that would discourage this vile act rather than encourage it. I would not try and enforce any laws.

Would her male partner also be charged as an accessory if he had knowledge or aided and abeted the abortion? In my eyes all including the doctors and nurses are guilty of killing babies. Again as I answered previously I doubt whether trying to enforce the law would help. Once hearts are so calloused they commit this crime I doubt whether laws would reduce it. Proper education and enforcing woman to look at the facts truthfully before abortion would however reduce the numbers. Dogmas/myths like Briar Rose claiming the child would not have any sort of life could easily be exposed for what they are.

What sort of supports should society prepare for in the event that we have a surge in unwanted babies and single parents?

Look at the adoption waiting list and you might get your answer. We import many kids to parents longing for a child. Ask yourself if you are glad that your parents did not abort you. Most kids in this country get the opportunity for a good life.

Its always has been a woman's choice and always will be her choice. I mean, do you think she is not "The" one and only to make that finial life giving question, since over-population and the chances of that child ever getting the best start in life knowing the costs of and commitments involved when most women are flat-out either at home all day or preoccupied with her work commitments? Quite frankly, I have this one question which most people cant answer. When your child leaves school, where is it going to go in regards of work related opportunities?

If I were to bring a child into this world, it would be my choice and I would think carefully about the rest.

Making a new human is the biggest responsibility I could think of, but then again I may not have a clue what Iam talking about.

40 years, then 9.2 billion or in Australia's case, 44 million and lets not forget a failing infrastructure that Howard and company didn't even take into account and now........well now with the jobless forcasted to rise in the near future,........What are we to think?

Child or NO child?

Thats a very good Question.

TTM

Thanks for finally trying to answer our questions Runner.

It seems to me that you believe that all unwanted pregnancies are a result of immaculate conceptions?

What about all the daddies Runner?

I would suggest that to decrease the admittedly too large numbers of unwanted pregnancies, that all the men/boys who don't want to make babies keep it in their pants.

What do you think about that suggestion?

suze, rather than blaming the men or blaming the women, why don't we try to evolve as a species and reduce the number of abortions that people are resorting to.

Yes, at the end of the day, this means being more thoughtful about how we experience sex, as a culture and individually.
The 'sexual revolution' should go further, deeper, into a more honest and grown-up understanding of the place of sex within the lives of individuals.

What, then, does contraception and abortion do to artificially change the biological sexual 'dance' of the woman?

Perhaps our culture of artifically enabled sex exacts an emotional cost on some younger childless women, by interrupting their hormonal 'flow'.

Biological science might better trace the emotional responses of women to sex, for example. Is it not possible that regular sex bonds women with their partners, in a biological preparation for the baby that the body expects within the year?

Let's not forget the sex is, from a biological perspective, essentially about pregnancy, after all.

Perhaps diseases such as anorexia can also be linked to competitiveness and anxiety caused by the cultural changes to sexual behaviour, where an incredibly drawn out, artificially sustained 'courting' ritual is now the norm.

There is so much study to do on the biological dance between men and women. Abortion, contraception and indeed the full gamut of biological messenging that occurs during sexual relating really needs to be studied much more fully.

Then, perhaps, the messages we tell ourselves about sex might become positive and holistic, rather than merely simplistic, pleasure-based and, need I say it, shallow.