On both sides, Rexw: a pox on all reactionary-theocratic and -nationalistic ideologies. Let's support democrats and human-rights supporters on both sides :)

Hi Arjay, it's always fun to read your conspiracy theories, in this case (no surprises) how evil the US and Israel are (and 'therefore', how pure of heart all their enemies are, in this case the Iranian medievalists - a logical non sequitur).

I think they call your main logical fallacy (and Rexw's) a "tu quoque" fallacy: i.e. 'you too', as in junior primary school playground arguments.

Another logical fallacy that you rely on takes the form: if A then not B and only B, and if B then not A and only A; there is only A or B: everything is either one or the other. An incredibly lazy closure-ideology, but utterly out of touch with realities which are forever open and idiosyncratic.

There are more brutal and reactionary ideologies than US's liberal-democratic capitalist one, and in turn, there are worse than Iran's neo-medievalism and Israel's Zionist-Apartheid system - Wahabism/Salafism and al Qaida, for example.

Ah sorry, Arjay, I keep forgetting: al Qaida doesn't exist, it's all a CIA concoction. And anyway, they are not brutal, they distribute food to the poor. And anyway, the US deserves what it gets from al Qaida. Which of course doesn't exist.

Joe

Well it's nice to see some non-US propaganda material.
Sure it's one sided, but it is also substantially true.
Israel has had more UN resolutions against it than any other country, and each time it was US veto that saved it from justice. They clearly do not value peace, nor respect other cultures and peoples.
Using the holocaust or "terrorism" as an excuse for acting as a bully/criminal/terrorist is no excuse, it just perpetuates the situation.
Also remember that the US has been mucking with the region for many years. Iran tried democracy, but the US helped kill it and assisted in installing the current religious regime. Saddam was a US ally, as was Bin Laden. (The Saudis must be quite nervous!)
BTW. Joe. Most of Arjay's "conspiracy" theories are pretty much fact: Criticism of Israel is unlikely from US politicians. Iran *can* stop middle east oil, Iraq was about non-existent WMDs, then "regime change" then...well, oil was actually admitted as the reason, but as this would make the whole thing mass murder for theft it was conveniently un-mentioned by the media. I'm sure many on the Right (and the Christians that supported Bush) are actually being eaten away inside by the lingering guilt that they were fooled into supporting one of the most disgusting human acts in the last 100 years. And as for Afghanistan: Do you *really* think that "getting rid of Taliban" is the real mission? I mean really?

"But all are in a region where the intolerance of the Middle Ages, on religious lines, still rules - no good guys (Muslim, Jewish or Christian)." So says Plantagenet.

The three religions mentioned are remnants of the Dark Ages. They are all guilty of barbarity. In the case of Islam, it is glaring obvious. Christianity and Judaism tend to hide their brutality and blood lust better but it's easily uncovered.

Religion is like a cancer. It would be better if it was cut out of society.

Hay Ziaby You shouldn't hold your breath waiting for Israel to collapse, there's more back bone in that little country than there is in the whole Arab world.

Your lot tried to kill them off the moment they had a chance, but came up wanting, in a very big way. Everything you have done since has only put more steel in that backbone.

We should have some of them run some lecture tours here, & in a few other western democracies, to teach us how to regrow ours.

Hi Ozandy,

I agree with you on Iraq: Saddam and the Baath Party had nothing to do with al Qaida or the Taliban or any fundamentalist Wahabi or Salafi sect, or with the pursuit of the Caliphate - Saddam was a nationalist (and so trending towards secular ideologies such as fascism, i.e. Arab national socialism), not an Islamist: his government would have been anathema to al Qaida, and vice versa.

But: "And as for Afghanistan: Do you *really* think that "getting rid of Taliban" is the real mission? I mean really?"

Yes, really, although it's not the whole story - of course, the US, China, every man and his dog, are interested in the minerals and oil and gas, that's hardly a secret. Of course, China wants to put a gas-pipeline through Afghanistan from Turkmenistan (and perhaps an oil-pipeline from Iran), to 'Xinjiang' and on to eastern China. Of course it wants to put highways from Tibet and 'Xinjiang' through Afghanistan to Pakistan and Iran. So:

* IF al Qaida was shielded by the Taliban and

* IF it was able to plan the 9/11 bombings under its protection, and

* IF the Yanks etc. pull out of Afghanistan, and leave it to the Taliban/al Qaida/LeT/Abu Sayif/Jemaia Islamiya/al Shabaa/AQIM, etc. etc., then an entire country becomes the safe base for all manner of terrorist attacks in all directions. So sooner or later, the Yanks etc. + China + central Asian republics + Russia + India will have to go back in there with remote-controlled weapon systems. And sooner or later, they all will have to put actual troops on the ground.

So the problem is how to render Afghanistan useless as a terrorist base. Do you "really" think that the Caliphate-oriented groups will stop ? This is, in THEIR view, a fight to the death for world control, even if the Yanks drop their guts and pull out.

So, whether we like it or not, we all have a dog in this fight.

Joe

It is time Loudmouth put his brain in gear before engaging his keyboard.

The conspiracies are no longer in the realm of theory.We have the scientific ,witness,circumstancial evidnece for 911 being an inside job.This not like AGW,this is forensic science

Nick Caldis the deputy commissioner of Security/terrorism in NSW on 2/9/10 recommended Robert Baer ex CIA to do an interview with Ray Hadley on 2GB.Baer was trying to justify an attack on Iran.He said that the USA was broke and would retreat to it's borders thus Israel feeling threatened would attack Iran.

Just Google Robert Baer on Hard Talk 2008 youtube and Baer totally contradicts what he is saying now.Iran according to Baer in 2008 is in no way a threat.

The really big joke is this.See http://patriotsquestion911.com/ On page 48 Robert Baer says that there is evidence of USA Govt involvement in 911.

Thom Hartmann; Are you of the opinion there was an aspect of inside job to 911 within the US Govt?

Robert Baer Ex CIA; There is that possibility.THE EVIDENCE POINTS TO IT.

Baer can also be seen on youtube with video matching these very words.

Now we have the Deputy Commissioner of Security NSW Nick Caldis endorsing a 911 Truther who says there is evidence of Govt involvement.So Loudmouth,who are the real terrorists? The Muslims, the Zionists,USA Govt or was it a joint effort.

Also Loudmouth see http://ae911truth.org/

Time to eat humble pie Loudmouth.