Yes the United States of America props up this murderous regime and has vetoed every United Nations resolution made against Israel for the past 60 years.

I hardly think you can call a country united when grandson of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the regime's founding father, was booed and jeered by the government's supporters on the 1 year anniversary of the June 2009 elections. Iran, with the third highest oil reserves in the world should be a peaceful and wealthy country. Instead unemployment and inflation are rampant, the country cannot not hold a peaceful election, and the government rules by thuggery and fear.

I expect you have to write this to keep alive. You are just lucky that there are areas in the world where there is freedom of speech and religion (like Israel).

EQ, you're kidding right?
Everything negative you hear about Iran comes from a Pro Israel or Israeli run source.The United States is run by Israel not the other way around, most of us "informed" people come down squarely on the side of Iran.
Here, try an Iranian news site: http://presstv.com/
Besides everything else Israel is one of the most corrupt and criminal societies on the planet, it's a major centre of drug manufacture and distribution, human trafficking,sexual slavery, money laundering etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdwGquJPWC0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9ADH1nxQ7A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VuPsQ1e4Oo

'Today, it's known to everyone that Israel is a political entity which the United States supports in order to maintain its interests in the Middle East'.
I understand this comment and why it was made and even though this is true, the real motivation of the parasitic US/Israel relationship is primarily reversed in importance, particularly to Israel in that it uses and abuses this association to protect its interests in the US, wide and varied but all strategic.
These cover communications, switching networks, media of course, financial, entertainment but of most importance is the penetration of the Zionist AIPAC organisation into government, the pathetically weak Congress and Senate who accept Jewish graft and corruption to maintain their seats in the houses.

So whereas the US does see Israel as a buffer against Islam, the difference between the two countries is almost indiscernible as to values with Israel having the upper hand, likely to stay that way until they finally make a mistake that forces the sleepy US public to turn on Israel and cast them out. It didn't happen with the USS Liberty, the Shatila and Sabra massacres, the Lebanon Marine base bombings or 9/11 but it will happen.

Arrogance brings its just rewards with over-confidence, the current state of play. As well, the Israelis have been good pupils, learning all of Hitler's tricks and then improving them every year over the past 60 years. So evil begets evil as the Zionazis will experience but their mindset of hatred and malice does not allow them to see the writing on the wall.

But I do agree that it is the lack of respect for Israel will be their undoing as no country cares what happens to them now. They have shown their true character and colours and have been found wanting.

Jay, you're kidding, right ?

Yes, a pox on Israel for its enforcement of Apartheid for Palestinians: perhaps the solution to that mess is a secular, single democratic state.

And yes, a pox on the medieval theocracy of Iran, not least for its oppression of Kurds, Azeris, Nuris, Hazaras, Baluchis and a multitude of other groups: perhaps the solution to that mess is a secular, single democratic state.

There's usually at least three sides to every story: yours, mine, that other bloke's and the truth :)

After arguing futilely with Singer D on another thread, it's comforting to come to a thread where most people have the wit to see that imperial Israel and America are the guilty parties and, collectively, they pose a danger to the world's survival.

I guess that America is mainly to blame because it armed Israel without realizing just how puffed up and militaristic the tiny but brutal Jewish nation would become.

Of course, Israel, driven by religious fanaticism, has plans for the creation of Greater Israel which, if they achieve it, will eventually include all the land from the Nile to the Euphrates! Many Arab countries will disappear and their citizens will become homeless.

Israel's madness must be stopped

Yeah, David, what's Hebrew for 'Caliphate' ?

Supporters of Eretz Israel, and either a Sunni or Shi'ite Caliphate, share a defect with some fundamentalist Christian groups, that their Book is the word of a god, immaculate, unmodified by human hand or mind: they are therefore permitted, even ordered, to conquer a large section of the world, that which 'our eyes have seen', etc., [i.e. Canaan = Israel's] and ultimately the entire world in some cases [thereby the Sunni Caliphate], in order to impose God's will on earth. A pox on all of them. Including the 44 million Hindu gods.

I wonder if all such religions can be defined as attempts by late-Neolithic societies to find closure in a rapidly-changing world, a way of pulling up the drawbridge on a threatening world, of denying the realities of social, economic and political change in societies around them ? They do seem to share backward-looking and reactionary features.

So can we talk about a reactionary Left, one which defends one or other or these reactionary ideologies ?

Interesting times indeed !

Dear Mr Ziabari

While you find plenty to criticise about America and Israel, you seem to view your own country through rose coloured glasses. Many of your fellow countrymen have left Iran. One suspects that they have experienced some unpleasant aspects of the country which you never seem to mention........ perhaps because you are so focussed on the evils of America and Israel.

I have interviewed people who have migrated from Iran. They are very sad to have left their homeland but all said that the repressive policies of the government were the main reason that they left.Below are some of the policies which convinced them that it was time to leave:

You want to convert from Islam.

We’ll kill you.

You want to have a same sex partner.

We’ll kill you.

You want to protest against corruption in the election process.

We’ll beat, imprison or kill you.

You want to criticise the government.

We’ll imprison you.

You want to practise your Ba’hai faith.

We’ll severely discriminate against you.

You want freedom of the press.

Only if you say nice things about the government. The Press
Freedom Index for 2007 ranked Iran 166th out of 169 nations.

You want all citizens to be treated equally.

Sorry ..not in Iran. Muslim and non-Muslims have different
punishments for the same crime. A Muslim man who is convicted
of committing adultery with a Muslim woman receives 100 lashes;
the sentence for a non-Muslim man convicted of adultery with a
Muslim woman is death.

You are Ahwazi Arabs who want to remain in your ancestral homes.

The Iranian government has already ethnically cleansed 1.2
million of you from your homes.

You are an Iranian Baluchi who wants to be treated fairly.

Unfortunately you are Sunni and we are Shia so the Iranian
government severely discriminates against you.

PS I saw that you received an award form President Ahmadinejad. I realise that this must make it very difficult for you to be critical of the government in any way.

What a wonderful piece of writing! I now have something to show my Year 9 students when we're talking about the media next term. Such great use of emotive language, such careful selection of information. "Mass murder" of 9 people, for example. The unfortunate thing is that such blatant use of tricky media tactics undermines the credibility of the article in itself. Realistically, if you wanted to condemn Israel, you could have done so without such tactics. There's plenty to condemn them for.

Out of interest, though, which "stalwart allies of Tel Aviv in the EU zone" recalled their ambassadors? I did a bit of online searching, focusing in particular on news sites, and could only find this article and identical articles at http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_6270.shtml and http://dailymailnews.com/0810/27/Editorial_Column/DMColumn.php. Their recalls must have been very quiet.

Diss Kourosh Ziabari seem one hottie short of a harem.

Blatant Iranian propaganda. Yes Isreal falls down in many ways - everyone knows that.

Ziabari is a salesman for a country, rich in oil and gas, that is spending $billions and worrying millions of people with the best advertised "secret" nuclear bomb effort since Israel's, India's or Pakistan's.

Hanging gays, opium users while stoning women to death in the name of "honour" killing is definitely not a good Iranian look to put down the non-Muslim Middle Eastern country.

If Iran were tolerant and peaceful it could occupy some moral high ground. Iran is indeed a better performer than Saudi Arabia, America's second best buddy in the Middle East. But all are in a region where the intolerance of the Middle Ages, on religious lines, still rules - no good guys (Muslim, Jewish or Christian).

Kourish Ziabari is right.Israel is the most dangerous country on the planet.They want to invade Iran under the ruse of it gaining 1 nuke when we all know Israel has at least 200 nukes which is against the nuclear non proliferation treaty.

Just recently 300 of 435 Congressmen signed a letter promising not to critise Israel no matter what they do.This is the real power they have over the USA.

If Israel attack Iran,Iran has the capacity to stop much of the oil coming out o the Middle East which will kill millions around the planet due to spiralling cost of oil.Food will bcome too expensive for many to exist.Then we will be looking at a world war,possibly nuclear.

It is not Iran who is the aggressor but USA/Israel.Iraq was a lie.There were no weapons of mass destruction .Afghanistan has trillions $ in resources and the route for an oil pipeline from Turkmenistan.Vietnam was a lie and now they are stirring up North Korea.Pakistan is far more unstable than Iran and has est. 80-100 nukes.So why is not the Pakistan Govt not being attacked?

It is pleasing to see Arjay again and his informed comments. As well, the level of understanding about that part of the world is certainly increasing some of it due to the great writers on MyCatbirdSeat.com, well read in this part of the world.

An earlier comment stated....
'If Iran were tolerant and peaceful it could occupy some moral high ground.'
This comment is correct in stating that all is not well in perhaps the most advanced state in the middle east, certainly the country with the most potential. Iran.
However, no less well-balanced than any other country controlled by a dictatorial religious hierarchy.

The one item that hinders progress throughout the developing world and in many cases the developed world as well, is the sublimation of the masses by religions. In some cases, such as Iran, unless the government can be separated from overpowering religious control, then democracy, as we know it, will never occur.
In such cases, as in the recent Iranian riots, how do the younger generations who want a better life, enjoy the vote when that vote is still under the control of a military regime which itself is under the control of the mullahs, Sharia law and all that means. It is hardly progress.

If Iran cannot separate one from the other, that is democracy from the adherence to religious law as well, one controlling the other, then there will never be any progress towards a better life. Such a parallel exists in the current Israeli climate where once upon a time, an Israeli was predominantly a peaceful Jew with a social conscience just as Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and others see themselves.

However, now the great majority of these Jewish people have become Zionists, far worse than a religion, instead a hated philosophy which knows no end in the pursuit of their objectives known to most as "Greater Israel", the ownership of lands which according to their Talmud teachings, (no more or less fictional that the Koran or the Chrisitian bible) belong to them.

Such religious beliefs are the real impediment to peace.

On both sides, Rexw: a pox on all reactionary-theocratic and -nationalistic ideologies. Let's support democrats and human-rights supporters on both sides :)

Hi Arjay, it's always fun to read your conspiracy theories, in this case (no surprises) how evil the US and Israel are (and 'therefore', how pure of heart all their enemies are, in this case the Iranian medievalists - a logical non sequitur).

I think they call your main logical fallacy (and Rexw's) a "tu quoque" fallacy: i.e. 'you too', as in junior primary school playground arguments.

Another logical fallacy that you rely on takes the form: if A then not B and only B, and if B then not A and only A; there is only A or B: everything is either one or the other. An incredibly lazy closure-ideology, but utterly out of touch with realities which are forever open and idiosyncratic.

There are more brutal and reactionary ideologies than US's liberal-democratic capitalist one, and in turn, there are worse than Iran's neo-medievalism and Israel's Zionist-Apartheid system - Wahabism/Salafism and al Qaida, for example.

Ah sorry, Arjay, I keep forgetting: al Qaida doesn't exist, it's all a CIA concoction. And anyway, they are not brutal, they distribute food to the poor. And anyway, the US deserves what it gets from al Qaida. Which of course doesn't exist.

Joe

Well it's nice to see some non-US propaganda material.
Sure it's one sided, but it is also substantially true.
Israel has had more UN resolutions against it than any other country, and each time it was US veto that saved it from justice. They clearly do not value peace, nor respect other cultures and peoples.
Using the holocaust or "terrorism" as an excuse for acting as a bully/criminal/terrorist is no excuse, it just perpetuates the situation.
Also remember that the US has been mucking with the region for many years. Iran tried democracy, but the US helped kill it and assisted in installing the current religious regime. Saddam was a US ally, as was Bin Laden. (The Saudis must be quite nervous!)
BTW. Joe. Most of Arjay's "conspiracy" theories are pretty much fact: Criticism of Israel is unlikely from US politicians. Iran *can* stop middle east oil, Iraq was about non-existent WMDs, then "regime change" then...well, oil was actually admitted as the reason, but as this would make the whole thing mass murder for theft it was conveniently un-mentioned by the media. I'm sure many on the Right (and the Christians that supported Bush) are actually being eaten away inside by the lingering guilt that they were fooled into supporting one of the most disgusting human acts in the last 100 years. And as for Afghanistan: Do you *really* think that "getting rid of Taliban" is the real mission? I mean really?

"But all are in a region where the intolerance of the Middle Ages, on religious lines, still rules - no good guys (Muslim, Jewish or Christian)." So says Plantagenet.

The three religions mentioned are remnants of the Dark Ages. They are all guilty of barbarity. In the case of Islam, it is glaring obvious. Christianity and Judaism tend to hide their brutality and blood lust better but it's easily uncovered.

Religion is like a cancer. It would be better if it was cut out of society.

Hay Ziaby You shouldn't hold your breath waiting for Israel to collapse, there's more back bone in that little country than there is in the whole Arab world.

Your lot tried to kill them off the moment they had a chance, but came up wanting, in a very big way. Everything you have done since has only put more steel in that backbone.

We should have some of them run some lecture tours here, & in a few other western democracies, to teach us how to regrow ours.

Hi Ozandy,

I agree with you on Iraq: Saddam and the Baath Party had nothing to do with al Qaida or the Taliban or any fundamentalist Wahabi or Salafi sect, or with the pursuit of the Caliphate - Saddam was a nationalist (and so trending towards secular ideologies such as fascism, i.e. Arab national socialism), not an Islamist: his government would have been anathema to al Qaida, and vice versa.

But: "And as for Afghanistan: Do you *really* think that "getting rid of Taliban" is the real mission? I mean really?"

Yes, really, although it's not the whole story - of course, the US, China, every man and his dog, are interested in the minerals and oil and gas, that's hardly a secret. Of course, China wants to put a gas-pipeline through Afghanistan from Turkmenistan (and perhaps an oil-pipeline from Iran), to 'Xinjiang' and on to eastern China. Of course it wants to put highways from Tibet and 'Xinjiang' through Afghanistan to Pakistan and Iran. So:

* IF al Qaida was shielded by the Taliban and

* IF it was able to plan the 9/11 bombings under its protection, and

* IF the Yanks etc. pull out of Afghanistan, and leave it to the Taliban/al Qaida/LeT/Abu Sayif/Jemaia Islamiya/al Shabaa/AQIM, etc. etc., then an entire country becomes the safe base for all manner of terrorist attacks in all directions. So sooner or later, the Yanks etc. + China + central Asian republics + Russia + India will have to go back in there with remote-controlled weapon systems. And sooner or later, they all will have to put actual troops on the ground.

So the problem is how to render Afghanistan useless as a terrorist base. Do you "really" think that the Caliphate-oriented groups will stop ? This is, in THEIR view, a fight to the death for world control, even if the Yanks drop their guts and pull out.

So, whether we like it or not, we all have a dog in this fight.

Joe

It is time Loudmouth put his brain in gear before engaging his keyboard.

The conspiracies are no longer in the realm of theory.We have the scientific ,witness,circumstancial evidnece for 911 being an inside job.This not like AGW,this is forensic science

Nick Caldis the deputy commissioner of Security/terrorism in NSW on 2/9/10 recommended Robert Baer ex CIA to do an interview with Ray Hadley on 2GB.Baer was trying to justify an attack on Iran.He said that the USA was broke and would retreat to it's borders thus Israel feeling threatened would attack Iran.

Just Google Robert Baer on Hard Talk 2008 youtube and Baer totally contradicts what he is saying now.Iran according to Baer in 2008 is in no way a threat.

The really big joke is this.See http://patriotsquestion911.com/ On page 48 Robert Baer says that there is evidence of USA Govt involvement in 911.

Thom Hartmann; Are you of the opinion there was an aspect of inside job to 911 within the US Govt?

Robert Baer Ex CIA; There is that possibility.THE EVIDENCE POINTS TO IT.

Baer can also be seen on youtube with video matching these very words.

Now we have the Deputy Commissioner of Security NSW Nick Caldis endorsing a 911 Truther who says there is evidence of Govt involvement.So Loudmouth,who are the real terrorists? The Muslims, the Zionists,USA Govt or was it a joint effort.

Also Loudmouth see http://ae911truth.org/

Time to eat humble pie Loudmouth.

So we are to take Robert Baer's word, despite the fact that he contradicts himself? We are to discount the possibility that, like many pop history authors, he is carefully brewing controversy to sell books? We are to accept his authority because he was a CIA agent up until four years before the September 11 attacks? So many flaws in your argument right there, Arjay. Your other sources are equally questionable.

Otonkonoko,none of my sources are questionable.On http://patriotsquestion911.com/ ,Ron Paul the Congressman for Texas also questions the official conspiracy theory and is on this site.

There are now;
220+ military,intelligence,Govt
400+ medical ie Drs
400+ Professors
300+ survivors & relatives of 911
1300+ Architects and Engineers
200+ artists and entertainers
Who all question the offficial conpiracy theory and want a new independant investigation into 911.

Is that asking too much? Is the truth so toxic that the neo- cons of Isarel and USA cannot even entertain such an enquiry?

Robert Baer is an opportunist.He knows the truth and is being pragmatic in coming to Sydney for a security conference sale of security soft/hardware.There are many more CIA agents on this site http://patriotsquestion 911.com/ who do question 911.Why are their names still there in this era of litigation when they could make a fortune sueing liars?.

I have no objection to the independent review these people ask for. It is not my tax money they will be wasting.

What makes your sources questionable, though, is the unquestioning assumption that they are experts.

Of the 1,200+ engineers and architects, how many specialise in demolitions or - better still - in the consequences of very large, very flammable projectiles hitting buildings? History is littered with engineers who have said 'that shouldn't have happened' - yet the very things that shouldn't have happened DID happen.

The pilots' arguments are, generally speaking, intended to refute the one thing that appears unquestionable here - that planes flew into buildings. If the footage is doctored, the eyewitnesses are hired actors and the people on board those flights (as well as the planes themselves) are hiding out with Elvis, then I applaud the creators of this conspiracy for the successful ruse they pulled. But why go to all that trouble? Why hide the fact that they blew the buildings up?

I have a very good friend who is a professor specialising in philosophy. If he questioned it, could he be one of the 400+ professors? What makes the professor of music from the University of the Pacific any more of an expert than me?

I watched the Rainbow Warrior sinking in Auckland back in the late 80s. Does that make me an expert on how it happened? If not, what is the basis of the survivors' expertise?

Don't get me started on the artists and entertainers. Sometimes, the simple explanation - planes crash into buildings; buildings go kaboom - just makes more sense than the more twisted and exciting one.

Arjay,

<<Robert Baer Ex CIA: There is that possibility.>>

Not exactly proof of anything, Arjay. One person's point of view, and all he can say is that it might be a possibility.

Did planes fly into buildings ? Yes/no ? If no, then what did people see and video ? If yes, then why not terrorists ? If a plane fully-laden with jet-fuel flies into a building, then surely the structure of the floor that it hits is weakened, and the ones above and below ? After all, an airliner is a bl00dy big missile. Buildings have mass, and so they fall. QED. It's not rocket science.

How many CIA people would be involved in a staged event (phony planes, buildings wired to explosives on every floor, a missile being fired into the Pentagon, etc.), and a cover-up ? Thousands ? Did any of them spill the beans ? This is the Yanks we are talking about, not the brightest sparks. Evil is not necessarily genius. I don't have enough respect for Americans to think they could perform such magic. Think Wizard of Oz.

And if the Bush crowd was behind it all, imagine the uproar from New Yorkers if one little thing went wrong with their scheme - and why bring down such iconic buildings, for God's sake ?

Time to move on, Arjay. And a lot of water has flown under the bridge since 9/11.

Joe

Hang in there, Arjay.

Suggest that the doubters read....
http://mycatbirdseat.com/2010/09/sahar-tv-interviews-dr-alan-sabrosky-on-911-and-beyond/

Alan Sabrosky, ex-Defence Studies. If he is wrong, everyone, it is certainly taking a long time for the owners of the Zionist press to litigate against him and in a country where litigation is second only in importance to food, not one respected journalist or blogger has been sued on the 9/11 matters, all of whom have stated the questions raised by Arjay.

It is now an accepted fact in the US of the Mossad and US Government complicity and actions will be taken, sooner or later. Not even in the US, controlled as it is by the Zionist media, can such matters be swept under the carpet forever

Perhaps we may then see another Pearl Harbour response as the sleepy US population wake and realise that they have been used and abused. Then they'll think about the Lebanon Marine bombing, the Shatila and Sabra massacres, and the infamy of the USS Liberty, the Neocons involvement in both Iraq and Afghanistan, the US / Israel parasitic relationship, the moves against Iran and on it goes. Where does it stop? So far they have all had a charmed life.

As for Robert Baer or Alan Sabrosky (9/11 disclosures as above), go ahead and sue them. May be one way of getting it before the public.

Rexw,

So it was the Jews ? Mossad ? The same mob that couldn't knock off some has-been Hamas bloke in Dubai or wherever without bungling it ?

So it was the Jews who - what ? - set up a hologram of planes flying into buildings, wired up three buildings with 1000 tonnes or whatever of high explosives, the dust from which blew all over the eastern states, commandeered a missile to fire it into the Pentagon (I'll bet Rumsfeld loved that), didn't try to fly another plane into the white House (that plane didn't exist) and in general, have cooked up this fictional bogey-man called al Qaida as a pretext for persuading the Yanks etc. to invade Afghanistan ?

Good luck with all of that.

Joe

Loudmouth."Time to move on Arjay." No.This issue will not go away.The evidence if 911 being an inside job is absolute and concrete.Ron Paul is on http://patriots question911.com/ and he had a popularity rating of 41% 3 mths ago almost equal to Obama.Last yr Ron Paul had a survey on whether there should be a new independant investigation into 911. 58% said there needed to be such an investigation.

The American people smell a rat with good reason.There is no way cave dwellers in Afghanistan could have pulled off such a sophistocated operation without inside help.They really stuffed up on WTC 7 which took 6 yrs to put out a sham report.Then the alarm bells really started to ring in 2006/2007.Richard Gage began http://ae911truth.org/
In the last 12 mths the engineers and architects have increased from 700 to over 1300.There are also almost 10,000 others on this site who are demanding a new investigation.

Professional people do not lightly put their names to such causes since it does affect their careers.I have met Prof Steven Jones a phyicist who was forced into early retirement by his University.I have met Richard Gage, Prof Niels Harrit,Dr Frank Legge who are people of high integrity and intellect.They know the unequivocal and unbending truth.Why would hundreds of professionals risk their jobs and reputations for a lie?

As Robert Baer says,"The evidence points to it" when asked if he thought 911 was an inside job.Robert Baer is held in high esteem by Nick Caldis the Deputy Commissioner for Security in NSW.

Okay, Arjay, spell out the evidence:

* how did the Jews or CIA or Swedes drive truckloads of explosives up to those buildings and wire them all up ?

* how did Colin Powell (working on behalf of the aforementioned possibilities) get hold of a missile and fire it into the Pentagon ?

* how many people, give or take 50 %, might have been involved in the whole elaborate process ? 1,000 ? 10,000 ? And we know from TV that the more people involved in a scheme, the more chances there are of something going wrong, a sort of exponential growth - so what might be expected to go wrong with 10,000 people in the know ?

With respect, pinning it all on 19 dedicated fanatics, four of whom get trained to fly planes into buildings, does have an elegance about it. I guess they weren't to know that the buildings would collapse and cause far more uproar than they ever dreamed of.

Yeah, that'll do me.

Of course, to get back to this thread, it is clear also that Iran had nothing to do with 9/11, that a Sunni-oriented Caliphate is anathema to the Iranian ayatollahs, and that they have had nothing to do with al Qa'ida until recently - in fact, didn't they hand over many al Qa'ida operatives fleeing Afghanistan to the Yanks early in the piece ? So ther Iranian authorities may be brutal neo-medieval thugs, but they do have some standards.


Joe

Loudmouth,all the details are not known.That is why we need a proper investigation.

The opportunity was there.For months before 911 there were extensive renovations on the lifts and many levels of the WTC.Dear old Georgy Bush's brother Marvin Bush was on the board of Directors Securacom who were in charge of security.Ace Elevators did extensive renos which gave them access to all the crucial infrastructure.

So Loudmouth it can and was done.

Arjay,

You're kidding, right ? Explosives just in the lift shafts ? A handful of guys, 'lift repairers' ? For 150 floors of three buidings ?

So, if one little thing COULD HAVE BEEN done (a), then it was done (b). And if one little thing therefore was done, it all was done (c).

If (a) was possible, then (b) was possible, therefore (c) was possible, and 'therefore' (d) actually happened.

I guess that's the definition of a 'long bow' :)

Then there is the matter of a missile up Rumsfeld's @rse, got from somewhere, fired from somewhere. Busy man, that Colin Powell.

Good luck, Arjay !

Joe

OK Loudmouth,Start disproving the science of absolute freefall.Why did not the lower structures provide any resistance to gravity?

Why did jet fuel burn to more than twice the temps possible to melt steel? Molten steel flowed like lava.

Prof Niels Harrit has found conclusive proof of nano thermite known only to the US Military and presented a peer reviewed paper which is undisputed and authorities refuse to look at.

How do you explain 90,000 tonnes of pulversied concrete and no pancaking of of floor if this is supposed to be a gravitational collapse?

Why were so few body pieces found? Human bone fragments found on top of buildings 200 metres away.

How do buildings collapse in such a synchronised fashion and fall into their own footprints ie did all the compontent parts communicate in such a way to fall in unison?

Now this is just the start of the anomolies.

Hi Arjay,

I don't have to 'prove' anything, I'm happy with the standard 9/11 story, if only because it doesn't require all sorts of twistings and turnings to 'explain' everything from a to z.

Still and all, to respond:

* Buildings have mass (weight); a 110-storey building would weigh what ? 100,000 tonnes ? With the light frames of those two towers, if the top ten floors (the first building hit) and thirty or forty floors (the second building hit) dropped four or five metres on to the next floors down, then we are talking about 10,000 and 30,000 tonnes respectively moving suddenly through that distance onto the next floor down, and so on. I would expect, if it all happened like this, that

(a) the building hit lower down (i.e. the second building hit) would be the FIRST to come down, and

(b) that the rate of collapse would increase as the combined upper mass impacted on each floor in turn.

As for the nano-thermite, I don't know anything about its chemical composition - for all I know, it may have a component that is also present in heart tablets. And wouldn't traces of it be blown all over the city, New England and up into Canada ?

Molten steel ? You're not suggesting that the standard story is that the building structures MELTED, are you ? I'm not sure what your point is here. Of course, there would have been a hell of a lot of molten plastic, equipment, furniture, building materials, etc., on each floor, pouring down the lift- and stair-wells.

<<How do you explain 90,000 tonnes of pulversied concrete and no pancaking of of floor >>

What do you mean ? So what ?

Body pieces found 200 m away - are you suggesting that this was because of explosions ? Were they pieces of bodies from the planes (or from people on the floors that were hit), or from the buildings' occupants ?

[TBC, ad nauseam]

Arjay,

[continued]

<<How do buildings collapse in such a synchronised fashion and fall into their own footprints >>

With respect, Arjay, buildings fall DOWN. Where else are they supposed to fall but vertically down ? Sideways ? Onto each other ? And if I were an engineer planting explosives in large buildings, I would plant them in such a way that the buildings fell down exactly as they are supposed to. Again, 'maybe it could have' doesn't constitute 'definitely did'.

And of course, this is such a tiny part of the whole story - four planes, three buildings, one plane crashing in a Pennsylvania forest (or didn't this happen at all ?), tens of thousands of people affected directly.

So doubts notwithstanding, how do you seek to explain it all ? Who are you suggesting plotted the whole kit and kaboodle ? The CIA ? The Jews ? The Masons ? The Mafia (presuming IT exists) ? The New York real estate industry ?

And how come nobody ever suspects the Swedes ? Simply because there is not a shred of evidence of their involvement ? Exactly ! Exactly ! Clever B@st@rds !

Joe

Loudmouth,unfortunately your pseudonym reflects your intellectual capacity.You have no grasp of physics or mathematics.You speak errant nonsense.Go to http://ae911truth.org/ and get an education.

You are wasting my time

Sorry I struck a nerve, Arjay :)

Joe Lane

Oh Arjay, I don't think you're in any position here to offer demeaning comments about the intelligence of others. In the meantime, I'll ask you once again:

1) Did the planes and their passengers exist? If not, how were they fabricated out of thin air without giving rise to any questions? If they were real, what happened to them (and their passengers) after they didn't fly into buildings?

2) What purpose was served by fabricating the whole (and wholly implausible, apparently) hijacked plane story? Indeed, what purpose was served by the whole incident?

ARJAY,

The trouble with most conspiracy theories is they are dreamed up by people who can’t or don’t want to accept the realities of a confronting or shocking event. Especially if the event challenges their main mindset about something. In this case that the Americans must always be the ones to blame for all of the world’s troubles and are the only ones capable of any sort of violence against their fellow man.

Joe
(LOUDMOUTH) Is right when he says it was the weight of the top floors falling on the one below and collapsing it and then the weight of that floor adding extra weight, speeding up the collapse of the floor below it and so on , with the whole thing going faster and faster as one floor after another fell

Hi Otokonoko,

Good questions: let's suppose that the underlying purpose was to discredit a non-existent group called al Qa'ida and link it to the Taliban in Afghanistan, to give the US an excuse to get involved half-way around the world in, of all bloody places, Afghanistan.

Could a more plausible means have been found to incriminate a non-existent al-Qa'ida and the Taliban regime ? Could the CIA (or is it the Jews ? the French secret police ? aliens ?) blow up some less iconic building, the Statue of Liberty for example, or the Brooklyn Bridge ? Or the Hoover Dam ? Something straight-forward, nice and simple ? Sabotage one of their own ships overseas ? Assassinate one of their own ambassadors ? With his dear little children ? And his aged mother ? And their dogs ? And of course, leave a 'trail' of clues implicating al Qa'ida, which, like the Mafia, does not exist ?

Why go to the trouble to blow up something so visible, so iconic to the population of New York AND put it on TV, and think that nothing could go wrong ?

And then there's the Pentagon. Did Colin Powell know for sure that Rumsfeld had left the building ? How did Rumsfeld feel about Powell somehow getting a missile from the DoD (as they laughingly call it) and firing it into his mates ? Is that how it happened ?

Even the Yanks are not that stupid :)

Since you all refuse to even look at the forensic scientific evidence of http://ae911truth.org/ or the hundreds of people on http://patriotsquestion911.com/ then you would all agree to an international investigation?

President Ahmadinejad of Iran at his recent UN addess said there was hard evidence of US Govt involvement in 911. 27 countries walked out, but 167 stayed and gave him a warm response.An international lawyer Franklin Lamb says there is more than enough evidence for international court to be established.

So if logic were to prevail,you would all agree to an international investigation that looks at all the hard scientific and circumstancial evidence of 911?

You see, Arjay. This is what happens.

>>President Ahmadinejad of Iran at his recent UN addess said there was hard evidence of US Govt involvement in 911.<<

That bunch of deluded, self-promoting, unfulfilled nerds who have been cultivating the "it's a CIA/Mossad/whatever conspiracy" theory over the years, have provided a clever, opportunistic enemy of Israel and the US with a perfect stick with which to beat them.

He doesn't have to prove anything, or provide even the tiniest shred of evidence. All he has to do is point to the fervid cesspool of self-indulgent know-nothings, who are doing all his destabilization work for him.

If you manage to achieve your objective, which is clearly to help as much as you can to provide Iran with the international political justification to blow Israel to smithereens, I sincerely hope that someone makes it their mission to find you, and "take you in for questioning" over your personal contribution.

Arjay, I looked at your evidence and asked you some questions about it. Frankly, much of it simply doesn't stack up. I'm still waiting for your reply. Rather than crying "nobody listens to me", how about answering some questions?

Thank you, Pericles, yours is always a refreshing and provocative voice, on any OLO thread.

Joe

OK Otokomoko.Yes the planes did exist but they were just the distraction from the nano thermite which brought down the towers.Don't forget that WTC 7 was not impacted by a plane.Prof Niels Harrit says there may have been other explosives too.There is clear visual use of cutter charges on the outer crucial structure.

Just see Prof David Chandler youtube 911 south tower.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnR4A4zb8B0&feature=related Now NIST ( National Institute for Standards and Technology)says that the planes compromised the mid structure thus the top of the towers acted as pile drivers causing a pane cake collapse of the towers.Looking at the video,the top of the South tower tilts a 23 deg and almost reaches horizontal before it vapourises into concrete dust.

The NIST pile driver should have continued on that vector and fallen over.Instead it self destructed before proceeding on that course.A hammer cannot drive a nail home with an angle of 23 deg since the nail will bend.This hammer vapourised before reaching it's nail at the wrong angle.

The main object of this video by Chandler was to prove the existance of explosives,however there is further revealing evidence that puts NIST's theory to the sword.In addition, there is no way that the towers could have come down in 11 sec at almost freefall speeds since this means that the lower structures provided absolutely no resistance to gravity.

So on three counts NIST's theory has absolutely no credibility.

But then we must discount the testimonies of many of the pilots cited on Patriots Question 911, whose central argument is that it would have been impossible for experienced pilots, let alone novices, to hit the towers with such precision.

Arjay,

<<there is no way that the towers could have come down in 11 sec at almost freefall speeds since this means that the lower structures provided absolutely no resistance to gravity.>

With 10,000 tonnes, 15,000 tonnes, 20,000 tonnes etc., and with my minimal understanding of physics, I don't have any trouble believing that a very tall building can collapse at close to the velocity and acceleration of gravitational force, particularly as the 'fall' gains momentum: F = mv[squared] which might have contributed to the destabilisation of the integrity of the third building:

You ask about the collapse of this third building: really, Arjay, this is for YOU to explain :) Otherwise, why on earth would the CIA (Mossad/the Swedes/Masons/Jews/aliens) even bother to wire it up for demolition if they did not intend to fabricate a plane flying into it ?

Is it possible to get back to the gist of this thread ? Yes, Israel is playing with fire by allowing new settlements in 'Judea' and 'Samaria' [will it ever allow Palestinians settlements in 'Philistia' ?] If I were Abbas, I would spend my time at the movies in New York, or at the beaches of Atlantic City until Netanyahu agreed to freeze settlements again.

But one evil does not paste over another - Iran's neo-Medieval ayatollahs seek to exploit legitimate Palestinian grievances while denying human rights in their own country. So both Israel and Iran seem to be competing in a race to the moral bottom. In this race, they are both playing with fire, and most alarmingly, both sides have supporters who believe that THEIR God would sanction the obliteration of the Other and their own ascension into Paradise, immediately for the ayatollahs and imams, somewhat later for their Israeli and Zionist counterparts.

And the rest of us may well get burnt

Loudmouth,I think that the scientists have proven their point beyond any shadow of a doubt.What we need now is an international investigation.Over 160 countries gave Ahmadinejad a positive reception to his view of what really happened at 911.

This is not just about the well being of a few elites,this is about the harmony and survival of the whole planet.If these lunatics get absolute power,no one will be safe.

Sorry, Arjay, which particular lunatics do you have in mind - Ahmedinejad, Kim Jong Il, Osama bin Laden, Netanyahu - there is an abundance of them at the moment :) demonstrating that there is nothing new under the sun.

Yes, they certainly are a danger to world peace.

Or do you mean the CIA, Mossad, the Swedes, the Masons, the Jesuits or Opus Dei, the Mafia, the Jewish Banking Cartel, the US Oil Cartel, or aliens from PX-15*9 ?

Joe

He's a clever lad, that Ahmadinejad.

The Wall Street Journal skewered the Arjays of this world in a piece that is unfortunately hidden behind Uncle Rupert's paywall. Here's the gist:

"He knows that the Muslim world would be paying attention to his speech. That's a world in which his view of 9/11 isn't on the fringe but in the mainstream. Crackpots the world over - some of whom are reading this column now - want a voice. Ahmadinejad's speech was a bid to become theirs."

During the Cold War, the term "useful idiot" was employed by the Communist hierarchy to describe people in the West who sympathized with the Soviet cause, through a misplaced idealism that blinded them to the reality.

Useful, because they formed a dissenting group within their own society. Idiots, because they had no real understanding of what they were supporting, or the damage they caused on the enemy's behalf.

Arjay is an example of the same phenomenon, sixty years on. He has been recruited by Iran's President as a "useful idiot" in his quest to bring down the United States.

Just so that you know the nature of the man you are supporting, and the cause for which he fights, Arjay, here's the full transcript of his speech.

http://tangibleinfo.blogspot.com/2010/09/ahmadinejads-un-speech-full-text.html

Enjoy your life as a political pawn, won't you.