Pynchme

“How about a revolutionary idea where men take no for an answer.”

I agree totally and am doing everything that I can to create this outcome. That includes pointing out that those women who reward this behaviour with sex are only making the problem worse. Many seem to enjoy being pursued by a man who is “confident”, but complain about other men who behave in exactly the same way but happen to be less attractive. Therefore, it isn’t possible to draw a neat distinction between "assertive behaviour” and “harrassing behaviour.” You tried to argue that each behaviour is different, but the exact same behaviour seems to get judged differently, depending on the man involved and the woman involved.

Again, I agree totally that harassing women is unacceptable and that there should be social and legal constraints preventing this behaviour. Let’s ensure that these limits are workable and that everyone is working to see that they are followed. If that means that some women need to walk away from a man that they are interested in because she wants these limits to be followed, well that’s just the price that she needs to pay for having principles. After all, men who don’t harass women pay a price for our principles.

Suze

Whenever we enter a new workplace, we all take cues from other people about the sorts of behaviour that are or aren’t acceptable. I believe that the woman in your anecdote would have been within her rights to say “I saw the way that he laughed on that other occasion and thought that he seemed to enjoy that sort of humour.”

BTW I’m aware that men can get harassed by gay men. I once booked into a pub that was “gay and lesbian friendly” Never again.

Benk

You are clueless. Just from whom did women require rescuing in the "Dark Ages"?

Clue, it wasn't dragons.

And today women can and do take care of themselves, not that I would complain if a man helped me - but I would complain if his reason to help me was to get laid. I understand if you find these ideas difficult to comprehend, however, your reasoning abilities are not my problem.

I believe that David Jones made the correct decision, hopefully now other corporations will consider the well-being of their staff as being of more value than a single bully.

benk: << If and only if this is the case, she needs to take responsibility for fixing a problem that she has helped to create. >>

That's the exact logical opposite to your original position, to which both Severin and I took exception. You're either a sloppy thinker, obtuse, or a bit of both.

You seem to have trouble mounting a simple, logically consistent argument when it comes to gender-related issues. What is it with you and women?

A comment on taking responsibility ...

Ms Fraser-Kirk blew the whistle on this guy but it seems clear that she wasn't the first he tried it with, just the first prepared to make a stand. She is now the subject of conjecture about her past behaviour (rewarding assertive behaviour, enjoyed being pursued by men who won't take no for an answer). No wonder women don't complain more often! They know that they will be on trial.

This is a workplace situation. Behaviour that might be OK elsewhere is out order at work. So it happens, at Christmans parties etc. Sometimes there is mutual attraction - after all, if we all work 24/7 where else do you have time to meet people?

But when there's a big power imbalance, he is THE Boss, then things are complicated. The more the Boss does it successfully the more he'll do it. Women can have various reactions: treat it as a joke, feel flattered at the attention, be nervous about repercussions if they if they knock him back, go along with it in the hope of gaining some advantage, even fall in love and marry the boss (unlikely if he's a serial harasser). Many feel annoyed but are not prepared to take action for fear of looking a fool, being the subject of scurrilous gossip, being bullied, being demoted or bypassed, losing the job etc. Some may just find another job and leave. You could argue that these women are the ones who 'need to take responsibility for fixing a problem that they helped to create' - though I have a deal of sympathy for many of the above responses.

Very very occasionally a women will take a stand, when he won't take no for an answer. Very very occasionally, as in the DJ case, the man will accept responsibility and go (or see the writing on the wall and jump before the push). The woman will do it knowing full well that she'll be the on trial for her own behaviour, even behaviour irrelevant to the workplace. She'll have to be pretty brave.

Well and succinctly stated Cossomby. Even Benk should be able to follow your post.

Yes, extremely well put, Cossomby. I really don't think there's anything much to add.

Oh yes. Welcome to OLO - I like the way you think :)