I am a customer of David Jones and, a such, I am pleased that the Board of that company have acted in a way that confirms my confidence in the probity of the retail outlet in which I shop frequently. As a shareholder, am further pleased that the Board has acted promptly and in a manner which coincides with my beliefs as to ethical business behaviour. There are, actually, more important things in life than share prices.

Ms Fraser-Kirk has all of my sympathy if, and only if, she has never rewarded this type of assertive behaviour from men. If she has ever enjoyed being pursed by a man who won't take no for an answer at any other time, then she too needs to learn to deal with the consequences of her actions.

Benk

Real World Alert:

Sometimes just smiling at a man can invite unwanted behaviour. What do you suggest, that women wear neck to knee clothing and refrain from any expression on their faces? I guess attractive women should just cover their faces and not go out in public. They already do that in Middle Eastern countries and look how well that is working out.

In conclusion:

David Jones: public relations 1, common sense priceless.

Severin : "They already do that in Middle Eastern countries and look how well that is working out."

Actually it is working out quite well - as evidenced by the fact that most strict Muslim countries have low incidence of HIV/Aids - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_HIV/AIDS_adult_prevalence_rate

This is due to the fact that adultery, homosexuality or any other sex outside of marriage are outlawed with very severe punishments!

Maybe this is something we can learn here from the them? (Note: I'm NOT a Muslim, nor any other religion-- I'm basically agnostic.)

The author doesn't see anything good coming from the David Jones board's sacking of their CEO.
How about demonstrating that removal of a person who supposedly broke a serious law is a quality David Jones wants to be known for? Seems fair enough to me.

We don't know all the details of the allegations, but I imagine that if this guy was asked to stand down immediately, even though he was said to be this fabulous, competent person, it must have been quite serious.

Sexual harassment cases are known to be very hard to prove, so this particular case must have been fairly cut and dry.

Severin

If you cannot disagree with what I actually write, you are allowed to say nothing. You shouldn't feel a need to disagree with me on every occasion, even if it means misinterpreting what I actually wrote until you can attack it. My actual words were "Ms Fraser-Kirk has all of my sympathy if, and only if, she has never rewarded this type of assertive behaviour from men. If she has ever enjoyed being pursed by a man who won't take no for an answer at any other time, then she too needs to learn to deal with the consequences of her actions."

My argument is that many men choose to adopt a tactic of assertively and persistently pursuing women because this behaviour often gets rewarded with sex. If she has rewarded this behavior at other times, then she needs to accept that her choices have encouraged this behaviour. Other blokes (who may well be alot less attractive) were watching and adopted similar tactics with her and other women.

Your comments about me wanting women to walk around with a blank facial expression, covered in a burka bear no relation to my comments made here or on any other occasion.

benk, I thought that Severin's response to your original vile comment was quite restrained. Your clear implication was that it's likely that Ms Fraser-Kirk is the type of woman who "rewards" sexual harrassment with sex, when there is absolutely no evidence anywhere that this is the case.

Why would you think that? Do you think that many women who have been raped really asked for it too?

Benk

>> You shouldn't feel a need to disagree with me on every occasion <<

I don't. I'd rather keep my communications with you to an absolute minimum. Your penchant for blaming women for the behaviour of men is as irksome as it is anachronistic. You condemn yourself with such utterances:

>> If she has ever enjoyed being pursed (sic) by a man who won't take no for an answer at any other time, then she too needs to learn to deal with the consequences of her actions. <<



Therefore, if I honestly disagree with you I will say so. Women not only have freedom of speech, we are also free to work outside the domestic sphere and one of us is actually running this country. Very naughty of her.

I doubt Julia would get much done covered from head to toe, confined to the kitchen, in order to avoid being pursued by some fool of a man.

Do I hear a sound? Must be the Dark Ages calling you back to your rightful era.

Severin: "Do I hear a sound? Must be the Dark Ages calling you back to your rightful era."

Haw! haha.

One of those, "I wish I'd said that!" moments :D

Benk: "Ms Fraser-Kirk has all of my sympathy if, and only if, she has never rewarded this type of assertive behaviour from men"

It's not "assertive" behaviour; it's harrassing behaviour. She didn't reward his behaviour with anything but "No." (twice).

How about a revolutionary idea where men take no for an answer.

If a woman decides she is interested, she can pursue the bloke who has signaled his interest.

Benk, maybe I could agree with your take on sexual harassment, and how you think women actually 'ask for it', if you also apply this same thinking if a man is sexually harassed at work?

This has happened at one of my workplaces in the past.
One of our female carers constantly referred to the size of our male nurse's crutch in a derogatory manner, and used to smack him on the backside at work. This male nurse reported the girl and she was eventually sacked.

Should this male nurse have taken the blame for this if he had ever laughed or smiled at a female coworker who did something similar?
What if it was a male sexually harassing another male?

We all feel more attracted to, or more comfortable with, some members of the opposite sex as opposed to others. That's just human nature.

If we laugh off one person, but take offence at another, then you can't help how you feel can you?

For the CEO to go so fast suggests that the complaint that triggered it was just the tip of the iceberg. I once worked in an organisation which recruited a senior manager from another state. It became clear very fast that he was a serial harasser - cautionary tales certainly passed through the female staff very quickly, but it took a couple of years before someone made a formal complaint. He went, but the complainant also lost her job, on unrelated grounds (which I thought were spurious). Then we heard that the same thing had happened in his previous job; our organisation clearly hadn't done due diligence when they hired him. I would not be surprised if the DJ situation was similar.

CJ

I don’t pretend to know Ms Fraser-Kirk and suspect that you don’t either. I never made any guess as to how likely it is that she has rewarded assertive behaviour with sex on other occasions, merely raised the possibility. If and only if this is the case, she needs to take responsibility for fixing a problem that she has helped to create. You seem to have as much trouble understanding a simple argument as Severin.

Severin

Of course you have freedom to express opinions. That doesn’t mean that you can make absolutely any statement without anyone disagreeing with you. You maliciously misinterpreted my statement and I had every right to complain. Suggesting that I have a problem with Julia Gillard running the country is also unfair. I have never suggested that women in power bothers me.
I cannot hear any sound. It may be that you are in the dark ages when men were expected to rescue women from all of their problems.

Pynchme

“How about a revolutionary idea where men take no for an answer.”

I agree totally and am doing everything that I can to create this outcome. That includes pointing out that those women who reward this behaviour with sex are only making the problem worse. Many seem to enjoy being pursued by a man who is “confident”, but complain about other men who behave in exactly the same way but happen to be less attractive. Therefore, it isn’t possible to draw a neat distinction between "assertive behaviour” and “harrassing behaviour.” You tried to argue that each behaviour is different, but the exact same behaviour seems to get judged differently, depending on the man involved and the woman involved.

Again, I agree totally that harassing women is unacceptable and that there should be social and legal constraints preventing this behaviour. Let’s ensure that these limits are workable and that everyone is working to see that they are followed. If that means that some women need to walk away from a man that they are interested in because she wants these limits to be followed, well that’s just the price that she needs to pay for having principles. After all, men who don’t harass women pay a price for our principles.

Suze

Whenever we enter a new workplace, we all take cues from other people about the sorts of behaviour that are or aren’t acceptable. I believe that the woman in your anecdote would have been within her rights to say “I saw the way that he laughed on that other occasion and thought that he seemed to enjoy that sort of humour.”

BTW I’m aware that men can get harassed by gay men. I once booked into a pub that was “gay and lesbian friendly” Never again.

Benk

You are clueless. Just from whom did women require rescuing in the "Dark Ages"?

Clue, it wasn't dragons.

And today women can and do take care of themselves, not that I would complain if a man helped me - but I would complain if his reason to help me was to get laid. I understand if you find these ideas difficult to comprehend, however, your reasoning abilities are not my problem.

I believe that David Jones made the correct decision, hopefully now other corporations will consider the well-being of their staff as being of more value than a single bully.

benk: << If and only if this is the case, she needs to take responsibility for fixing a problem that she has helped to create. >>

That's the exact logical opposite to your original position, to which both Severin and I took exception. You're either a sloppy thinker, obtuse, or a bit of both.

You seem to have trouble mounting a simple, logically consistent argument when it comes to gender-related issues. What is it with you and women?

A comment on taking responsibility ...

Ms Fraser-Kirk blew the whistle on this guy but it seems clear that she wasn't the first he tried it with, just the first prepared to make a stand. She is now the subject of conjecture about her past behaviour (rewarding assertive behaviour, enjoyed being pursued by men who won't take no for an answer). No wonder women don't complain more often! They know that they will be on trial.

This is a workplace situation. Behaviour that might be OK elsewhere is out order at work. So it happens, at Christmans parties etc. Sometimes there is mutual attraction - after all, if we all work 24/7 where else do you have time to meet people?

But when there's a big power imbalance, he is THE Boss, then things are complicated. The more the Boss does it successfully the more he'll do it. Women can have various reactions: treat it as a joke, feel flattered at the attention, be nervous about repercussions if they if they knock him back, go along with it in the hope of gaining some advantage, even fall in love and marry the boss (unlikely if he's a serial harasser). Many feel annoyed but are not prepared to take action for fear of looking a fool, being the subject of scurrilous gossip, being bullied, being demoted or bypassed, losing the job etc. Some may just find another job and leave. You could argue that these women are the ones who 'need to take responsibility for fixing a problem that they helped to create' - though I have a deal of sympathy for many of the above responses.

Very very occasionally a women will take a stand, when he won't take no for an answer. Very very occasionally, as in the DJ case, the man will accept responsibility and go (or see the writing on the wall and jump before the push). The woman will do it knowing full well that she'll be the on trial for her own behaviour, even behaviour irrelevant to the workplace. She'll have to be pretty brave.

Well and succinctly stated Cossomby. Even Benk should be able to follow your post.

Yes, extremely well put, Cossomby. I really don't think there's anything much to add.

Oh yes. Welcome to OLO - I like the way you think :)

Severin

Let me explain it simply. There is a problem with some men who sexually harass women. You are happy to ask men to solve this problem by stopping this behaviour, thereby rescuing women from their predicament. On the other hand, you reject any expectation that women change any behaviour that feeds the problem. In short, you want men to fix this problem but don’t expect women to do anything to fix the problem.

CJ

If she has contributed to the problem, that needs to be discussed. If she hasn’t contributed, she has my unreserved sympathy. It’s a quite simple argument that has remained consistent throughout this thread. Nothing obtuse about it.

Cossomby

Once again, I believe that sexual harassment is unacceptable and agree with legal measures to stop it. As you mentioned, using these legal remedies can be difficult. Therefore other efforts, such as discussing people's behaviour can assist in stopping the problem.

“No wonder women don't complain more often! They know that they will be on trial.”
All people’s behaviour is scrutinised. Why socialise women to get angry over something that is a part of everyone’s existence?

“Behaviour that might be OK elsewhere is out order at work.”
I can see why you might believe that pursuing co-workers is inappropriate. If you want to argue that co-workers are off-limits, then it needs to be a rule that is applied consistently. If that means that men need to avoid pursuing co-workers they are attracted to, then women can do the same. It is the price of having principles.

Benk: How does anything this young woman has done, ever, negate HIS refusal to accept "No." ?

No amount of vilifying her is going to shine him up any better than he is. Nevermind that he was her boss and senior exec; nevermind that he admitted that he'd done that which he was called out on and nevermind that he has about 20years more world experience than her, especially in a workplace environment - where one would expect a senior to set the pace for juniors to follow.

Men and women are going to be attracted to each other in any setting. The difference is graciously accepting a no thanks when some sort of interest is expressed. It's also preferable to simply ask someone out, rather than grab a quick squeeze in the elevator or cornering someone to chase them around the desk. For men, they might have a rebuff - accept it and move on. For women, fraternizing in the workplace means either (1) being blamed for sleeping her way to the top (or bottom) or (2) having to leave the job.

The relative attractiveness of the male is irrelevant. What you consider an attractive male might not coincide with what some woman thinks. Even women amongst themselves rarely agree on who is desirable and who isn't.

If your "principles" stop you from persisting even though your perception is that simply disregarding the female's response is the path to success (eg a bonk); maybe you could take the trouble to just be a good work mate and stop thinking of females as perpetually available for pursuit. Some women (most I would say) really are just interested in getting on with their work.

- and Benk, no rule about harrassment is going to be applied consistently if the first thing that happens, even when the bloke admits it, is that the woman is terrorized and her character assassinated.

Bravo to this young woman for speaking out to stop unwanted behaviour when the silly old fool wouldn't accept a no.

Benk

I don't know what you are reading, but it is never my posts. One small part of campaigning against sexual harassment (by either gender) is by speaking out against it whenever there is an opportunity, such as on OLO.

Well said, Pynchme (again). Unfortunately Benk will still try to prove the brave young woman who spoke out against her CEO's behaviour is somehow to blame.

“How does anything this young woman has done, ever, negate HIS refusal to accept "No." ?”

She may have rewarded other men who have persisted after the first knock back. If this is the case, then she is part of the reason why many blokes are so reluctant to take “no” for an answer. If she has never rewarded persistence, then she has all my sympathy.

“No amount of vilifying her is going to shine him up any better than he is.”

Criticising her needn’t amount to any defence of him. He is a douche either way.

“no rule about harrassment is going to be applied consistently if the first thing that happens, even when the bloke admits it, is that the woman is terrorized and her character assassinated.”

She won’t have her character assassinated if she has acted with integrity. People who are sensitive to criticism need to consider their behaviour.

“maybe you could take the trouble to just be a good work mate and stop thinking of females as perpetually available for pursuit.”

Huh! Who says that I do?

These social conventions that we both support will never work as long as individual women judge some men’s behaviour as “confident” and the exact same behaviour from another man is judged as “harassment.” What’s more, given that “even women amongst themselves rarely agree on who is desirable and who isn't”, the only way for blokes to find out they are attractive enough is to try their luck. Let’s see what we can change to make these rules work. Solving the problem should be more important than making ourselves look caring by showering the victim with empathy.

Severin

““One small part of campaigning against sexual harassment (by either gender) is by speaking out against it whenever there is an opportunity.”

Keep up the good work, just don’t pretend that this social pressure is the whole solution. It is just one part of the solution. The one part that just happens to cost you nothing.

Dear benk,

A young woman spoke out because her old creepy boss wouldn't take no (twice) and he admitted he did it.

NOT picking on her is hardly showering her with anything.

I am really disappointed in your one eyed view on this.

Therefore when you talk about people using 'confident' and 'harassing' to mean the same thing, I can't have confidence in your perceptions. They are entirely different things to me. What evidence do you have that people do use those terms to describe the same behaviour?

In any case what's wrong with expecting people to err on the side of caution by accepting the first response?

Wouldn't THAT teach muddled females to speak up at first go or forever hold their peace? I could therefore argue in response to yours, that ANY bloke who has ever given a female a second chance to say yes to his advances has contributed to the problem.

Now can you see that your 'point' is pointless?

sheesh!

I believe that Cossomby gave as good an answer to Benk as we are going to get- ably assisted by the valiant Severin and Pynchme.

However, I believe we are now all flogging a dead horse, and will never change Benk's mind about women ALWAYS being at fault for everything!

The anti-female bible preaches that:
If a woman is sexually harassed or physically sexually assaulted, she must have 'asked for it', by the way she dressed, how she acted, where she was, the time she was out and...just because she is a female!

I just wanted to add to the chat about attractive men winning the women.
I can think of several high powered (but not so physically attractive to most women I reckon!) men who have 'attracted' women, including Lang Hancock and Kerry Packer!

- and Suze,

What about Stephen Hawking (even before he was famous) and Mick Jagger.

I have never understood women raving over Mick Jagger, or that blonde actor with the broken nose or Ben Stiller. I reckon if they weren't famous they wouldn't seem as attractive. Having said that I have always liked the looks and style of Charlie Bronson, Bruce Willis, David Jason (Frost) and Vincent D'Onofrio. I wouldn't ever have cared to meet any in real life though I don't think. I would probably have been disappointed - I like their screen characters.

Anyway I know of many ordinary blokes who don't have power, fame or fortune but who have partners who are devoted to them. I can't say that in my own case, however. My old mate looks like Sean Connery, but was much better looking than him when he was a young bloke. Strange as it might seem it wasn't his looks that I found/find attractive - it's always been his sweet nature :)

Suze, Pynchme you are both right about 'flogging a dead horse', Benk among his many assumptions about women, assumes that we only exist here on OLO - have no lives, never asserted ourselves in the real world, never been harassed at work or apparently spoken out it or supported others (male and female) when they have been bullied.



Part of the reason I suffer chronic illness is because I have stood up for myself and others. I have every reason to be extremely angry with attitudes like Benk's - they have no idea how much I restrain myself when responding to these asinine views.

Going away for a couple of days - to care for elderly mother and set-up game on PC for my nephew - more of me just doing nothing worthy I guess!

Benk: Common Sense 0

Pynchme

“What evidence do you have that people do use those terms to describe the same behaviour?”

Like Severin, I have a life outside OLO.

“In any case what's wrong with expecting people to err on the side of caution by accepting the first response?”

I do. A better question is how can we convince these other blokes to accept “no” as an answer? I do try, but they invariably feel that persistence will get them what they want. That situation needs to change before these blokes do.

“ANY bloke who has ever given a female a second chance to say yes to his advances has contributed to the problem.”

Yep, especially those blokes who have been rewarded for their persistence.

Suze
You cannot change my mind about “women ALWAYS being at fault for everything!” because I don’t believe it. Let’s not see everything in false dichotomies. Just because I criticise some women doesn’t imply that I am any less critical of these men. Once again, these blokes are deadbeats. Why do they always seem to have all the luck?

Severin

” assumes that we only exist here on OLO - have no lives, never asserted ourselves in the real world, never been harassed at work or apparently spoken out it or supported others”

I know that sexual harassment is a real problem. Therefore I expect everyone to do everything in their power to stop it, even if it comes at a price.

You ladies say that you want it stopped but just aren’t fair dinkum.

I don't think it's the "ladies" who "aren't fair dinkum" here, benk.

Benk <" Just because I criticise some women doesn’t imply that I am any less critical of these men. Once again, these blokes are deadbeats. Why do they always seem to have all the luck?"

Do you really think the guys who sexually harass women in the workplace have all the luck? The guy from David Jones has had to flee the country after losing his job!

At the end of the day, I believe that guys like these will end up all alone because they can't commit to one woman at a time, and there aren't many women around who will put up with that for long.

If you sexually harass women at work these days, you won't keep your
job for long. Doesn't sound too good to me Benk?

CJ

Did you put ladies in quotation marks for a reason?

Suze

There are alot of Mark McInnes type guys in the country. Lamentably, few get pulled into line with sexual harassment laws. Even Mark had a pretty good run and you would suspect that he'll sneak back into another high paying corporate job before too long.

I really don't need you people as enemies. I want these creepy blokes to stop as much as you lot. I support laws and social pressure to stop these guys, I just don't believe that they are the complete solution. Maybe alot more blokes will start to help when women start to help themselves.

I don't want to be your enemy Benk :)

I just happen to believe that women have been trodden on for so long in the workplace, that they are only now starting to stand up for their rights.

More power to them too.

Have you watched 'Mad Men' on SBS before Benk? It should be starting again soon. It shows how women used to be treated in the workplace in the 1960's. It is highly entertaining and a great series.