The Kadaitcha Man is here. He is having trouble warding off the evil spirits of minerals devils.It is expected that the kadaitcha Man will not survive beyond the year. The sooner he goes the sooner the evil minerals spirits will be free to crush the life out of all of us.
socratease

It is certainly good to hear that some of the money is being spent on food. I am sure many of the once hungry kids are happy about that.

"Sometimes people who have been visited by a Kadaitcha man get sick and die within a few days; sometimes people have prolonged illness and seek forgiveness from senior law holders. If they make proper amends for their wrong they may grow well again. I don’t know what will happen this time."

Well, hopefully the Kadaitcha man is apprehended and sentenced to a long term in prison, since trespass, theft, mutilation and attempted murder are all serious crimes; and presumably you are liable for criminal prosecution too, since you are aware of these crimes and apparently have not reported it to the police.

Or you could just hope that people don't take you seriously and treat this as the nonsense that it is.

One thing puzzles me, though -- if I had sneaked into someone's room to do them grievous bodily harm, I wouldn't have to leave a key to show I had been there. It would be -- pardon the expression -- bleeding obvious. Perhaps the Kadaicha man doesn't have as much faith in the power of his prognostications as you do.

It's a dream, Jon.

Dont diss the dreaming folks or you might find The Kadaitcha Man comes to visit you one night.

Oh and if anyone is looking for one of the many reasons for rudds poll numbers they only have to look to his (mis)treatment of indigenous folks. Now he wants to extend it to the rest of the poor of Australia. With his "shame and humiliate" card. I cant believe any Labor politician can be so stupid. It will be gulags and ID cards next. The censorship is already on its way.
Fuhrer rudd was never a "real" Labor pollie. More of an academic spiv wannabe who would look just at home as the leader of the Libs. Give him his chance at the election then dump him asap no matter what the outcome. Get someone in there who knows what Labor actually stands for and is willing to really fight for the poor and workers not make life miserable for them like a poncy poor hating tory.

Thank you John
I know many Murri people, and some Migaloo people who have a dream that this beautiful continent, all the country within, and all who and which live on it will be protected and healed. We Migaloos would do well to learn the old ways and pay respect to not just the land but the ordered and respectful way of living and gaining consensus on major issues which affect community. Our failing to remember, and now relearn this will be to all our detriment. It would be especially good if decision makers learned this. I am sure that their and our health would improve immeasurably. Thank you once again, Jennie

Hi Jennie,

What's the weather like on your planet ?

Joe

John I am sure you are a lovely person but this silly longing to send people back to the stone age is not at all helpful. Pandering to other ridiculous beliefs is likewise.
We do need to include Aborigibal people into society and ensure they are able to have what we have and do not worry we all want/need the same thing.

I have a great idea. All those people who want to proclaim/reclaim/retain their "Aboriginality" should be allocated freedom of residence (traditional design) plus hunting and collection of traditional foods based on their historic tribal areas. If that tribal land is no longer suitable for the purpose, another nearby area that is should be found. Perhaps several tribes could merge together in peaceful co-habitation? Then again perhaps not :-)

As well they should get a 'basics' allowance in order to supplement their diet. Say $25 week per person which would accumulate so that in times of lean pickings or where traditional food supply has declined there would be a resource to feed the family.

The 'participants' would need a good and plentiful variety of traditional tools to start with. After that they would produce their own replacements. Within the 'tribe' rule of law would revert back to traditional concepts of crime and punishment.

Non-traditional health care would still be available for those who wanted it.

What could be fairer? After all that is better than how Aborinines would be living if the evil whites hadn't come along to wreck their 'Paradise'

All those who DIDN'T want to live this idyllic lifestyle would ignore so-called "Aboriginal heritage' simply identifying as "Australian" and just getting on with their lives like the rest of us. Those with "mineral claims" could get a one off substantial payout that would set them up nicely and no longer have to accomodate the sponging of various relatives to quickly dissipate their fortunes.

What you reckon Dr John?

All cultures change and adapt over time. Reclaiming some of the values and beliefs of the past is not inconsistent with that. To suggest that trying to achieve a society in which there is consensus and which communities, not just the individuals within them or over them, decide what is best for their community, is hardly a return to the "stone age". Yet this is the foundation of Australian Indigenous cultural beliefs. Similarly seeking to make a society which protects the earth and uses resources respectfully, with an eye to provision for future generations, and makes clear connections between the health of the land and the health of the people, is consistent with these beliefs. The proposition that the choice is between "stone age" and "modern", is less than helpful. We must create new alternatives which consciously keep the best of the past and judiciously incorporates the best of the present.

"I have a great idea. All those people who want to proclaim/reclaim/retain their "Aboriginality" should be allocated freedom of residence (traditional design) plus hunting and collection of traditional foods based on their historic tribal areas..."

And what about the poor bloody children stuck in this heartless scheme, who have no choice to follow their parents around until they a) die of some curable medical condition, or b) grow up ignorant and unemployable, with no option but to perpetuate the same barbarism on their own kids? The traditional Aboriginal way of life was developed solely for the benefit of male elders, and to the extreme detriment of everyone else. And like most autocratic cultures, it strongly resisted change -- even change for the better.

The massive demographic shifts occurring in Aboriginal culture, now that most Koori children are surviving and remaining healthy, will hopefully put a natural end to support for the toxic traditional lifestyle.

jon j
This perpetuates the myth that Traditional Indigenous culture is for the benefit of old men. I agree such a society would be barbaric. Well, hello there. From my perspective this is precisely the foundation of the society in which I live. And believe me it is barbaric, as the data about the increasing rates of violence against us and ours, irrespective of where we live, is testament.
Further, it demonstrates an appalling lack of knowledge of the pivotal part that women have in both traditional and urban Indigenous communities. This includes, but is not limited to a respected role in consensus decision making for the benefit of the whole community. Unhappily I am well used to a singular lack of valuing of the essential role women have in bearing, nurturing, developing and protecting children and the land, as is shown by what is omitted.

Such myth marketing encourages the continuance of unseemly outbursts by many against Indigenous peoples, as has been seen in one of our main cultural activities such as playing State of Origin.
It would seem apparent that Education and Awareness Raising is indeed required for all of us, not just elite footballers.

Jon J,
Can't agree with you .Sounds a bit Racist to me .
Aboriginal Culture and male/female relations, have naturally evolved over 100,000 plus years.
It's ALL about survival, not getting the best of the opposite sex .
Changes are now occurring to bring a mix of old and new Culture to Aboriginal Australians .
It would be interesting to see what your life and relationships would be like in your World in say 10,000 years ....
But then in your perfect Capitalist Western World we are all on a level playing field allready aren't we ??

Just wondered:

Isn't it racial-discrimination to allow only aboriginals to opt-out of Australian/western society and return to the stone-age (with or without their children)? Why shouldn't white-people be allowed the same privilege?

Also, why particularly the stone-age? for the aboriginals this means only 200-300 years back, so what if others want to opt-out and go only 200-300 years back in time (like the Amish for example)?

Meanwhile, 25,000 Indigenous people have graduated from universities: 50,000 graduates is a likely achievment by 2020. Indigenous commencements and enrolments are at record levels. There are, on average, four graduates per day. Ph. Ds are graduating at an average of one every three weeks. Overwhelmingly, those graduates are urban-based, and they will live and work in their cities.

Fifteen thousand years ago, ALL of our ancestors were living a Stone Age existence, with stone, bone and wood as the basis of their technology. Ultra-parochialism and warfare between groups was the rule: tiny groups spoke utterly different languages from the next tiny group. Human sacrifice and cannibalism were common on all continents. The concept of environmental awareness and concern were utterly unknown.

Jennie, try to put those two paragraphs together, they are both (IMHO) accurate. Seriously, if you were Indigenous, which pathway would you take ?

Joe

As I am not Indigenous it is impossible for me to answer your question ... which would I choose?

I do know however that many of the Indigenous people I know have a sophisticated way of navigating this difficult terrain. As they are totally conscious of the fact that theirs is the oldest continuous living culture on this the oldest continent on the planet, they seek to apply the new technologies and cultural artifacts within the values and beliefs to ensure this continuance. This is particularly with respect to issues of health and well being as opposed to illness and disease.
Again beware of the myth making. While it is true that some Indigenous peoples have practiced cannibalism, this has not been established within the Indigenous peoples of Australia.
I am sure that I would prefer to live in a society whose war technology was limited to sticks and stones rather than nuclear weapons, self guided missiles anonymously destroying whole communities in a single blow. And I would prefer to live in a society which uses the resources available to it equitably and respectfully leaving the land in bountiful condition for future generations.
If we are to live here in peace together we must develop the elasticity of our brains to adapt and accommodate more than what our own culture has prescribed.

'Sticks and stones' ? When Lloyd Warner wrote his book 'Black Civilization', he was shocked to calculate that the death-rate of young men through warfare in Arnhem Land was equivalent to the death-rates of British and German soldiers in the First World War. Constantly. For tens of thousands of years, Jennie. Hence the steady-state population. Hence the practice of old men each married to many young women.

All of our ancestors were living in Stone Age conditions, fifteen thousand years ago. All societies then had 'culture', and have had 'it' since: most societies have adapted and modified, even revolutionised, their cultural practices in those fifteen years. So I don't know what is so laudable about an unchanging 'culture', or society. That sounds like extreme conservatism, even reaction, to my Marxist ears.

In 1788, the Aboriginal population was around half a million. To forgo our airconditioning and ease of living, Jennie, we would have to get rid of around 21.5 million people. I'll go way out on a limb here and suggest that that is not likely to happen. So let's get on with living - together - in the real world and stop flogging history with a feather.

Loudmouth "The concept of Environmental Awareness and concern were utterly unknown ".
That is not right- you are trying to have a lend of us .
The South Australian Maralinga Aboriginals were appalled, and could not believe, that any person in their right mind would blow-up and destroy their own Country [now controlled by the whites] with the Atomic Tests of the 1950's .
This Land to them was the source of their food And Religion and worthy of protection and conservation .
Australia has gone backwards Environmentally from day 1 of our Invasion to have one of the worst records of Species Extinction in the World .
Sure we have every "awareness "of what we have done and continue to be "concerned " !

'Australia has gone backwards Environmentally from day 1 of our Invasion to have one of the worst records of Species Extinction in the World .'

Is that why boatloads of illegals (the ones lucky enough to make it) risk their lives daily to come here. You certainly would not have a computer or a car to drive if Europeans had not come.

Kartiya Jim,

I'll stick by what I wrote: are you suggesting that it was common belief 15,000 years ago that atomic testing was harmful to environment and human life and that's why the Stone Age societies of the time banned it ?

Just because people don't do something (build dams, conduct atomic tests, drain swamps) doesn't mean that they have carefully thought about it and decided against it, not 15,000 years ago anywhere in the world, not sixty years ago at Maralinga. All human beings are equally intelligent, but technological levels may differ at different times over the past 15,000 years, and what one can even think about may be limited by what one'e technology extends to. Not many could even imagine germs until the appropriate microscope technology was developed. Huge arches (say 100 m) could hardly be thought of, and certainly could not be built until the Romans developed the technology to process cement.

Our technology limits what we can think of, what we think we can do, and what impact we think we are having on the environment, even when we are unintentionally having a far more negative impact - whether grazing practices in the Middle East, firing practices in pre-1788 Australia and pre-conquest US, or over-cultivation in Mayan Central America.

And a hundred years ago, almost nobody in the world was at all concerned about the human impact on the environment (perhaps apart from the Dutch): that is really a very recent phenomenon, post-war.

Joe Lane

"You certainly would not have a computer or a car to drive if Europeans had not come."

So what - I wouldn't miss them either.

So I would not have a Ph.D. and I would not know that atomic-testing is bad for the environment, would I be missing anything?

As a child I did not have airconditioning, but did not seem to miss it either. Mind you, I also did not have to work every day in a work-place with air-conditioning, germ-circulator, which I was not allowed to turn off even when I'm freezing and getting a cold in the middle of summer.

"ease of living"? what's so easy in today's rat-race?

Yes, you have a car, so you can visit your loved ones, whom before population grew so much, used to live a few steps away. But then you rarely get the time to visit them, because you are so busy paying for the car and the fumes it produces.

As for cannibalism, why should eating human-flesh be different than eating the flesh of other animals?

Span of life?
Life is not measured in years, but in moments, not by subtracting the "date-of-birth" from the "date-of-death", but by counting the moments of awareness, of freedom, of joy. Going through a fog of busyness does not count.

Jennie - define "Aboriginal Culture"? Do remember when trying to do so that "aborigines" were/are a diverse mob with genetic differences between top end people and those further south. They were insularly tribal and frequently aggressive towards their neighbours - as per Loudmouths comment on the death rate of young men. (Nothing much changed there) There was great diversity of language and 'cultural practices' as well.

They appear to have common belief in an ancestral super-being/animal - usually a Water Serpent and numerous supernatural entities which varied between tribes and regions and were honoured and appeased through art and ceremony. There seemed to be consensus on an 'afterlife' though its form varied. Communication systems that relied largely upon drawings/carvings/markings and story-telling were also the norm. Many of these similarities carried scant importance between tribes.

Tribes lived largely nomadic lifestyles wandering within loosely defined territories hunting, gathering, building rough shelters taking what they needed from the surrounds.

There is much talk about the 'relationship with the land' and claims that Aboriginals were somehow the great custodian caretakers. That aspect of the 'culture' was centred on the Earth providing for them not vice versa. So what's new with humankind? There's certainly strong evidence that Central Australia's deserts and the extinction of the mega-fauna were at least partly due to the practice of burning off to flush game and in reality Aboriginals had no concept whatsoever of 'conservation'.

So in 10/15 thousand years they progressed nowhere and were no match whatsoever for Caucasian invaders. Sad maybe but it's history past.

Today, Aboriginal Australians in every form, from 'fullbloods' in remote areas through the various mixes down to the yella-fellas, those who had a distant Koori relative and claim 'aboriginality' from tribes to the North, South, East & West, have a choice. Learn to live in the "White Man's World" cos that's the reality, or perish.

Most are getting on with it - very successfully in many cases but those living in highly dsyfunctional more 'traditional' community groups are generally doomed along with their unfortunate offspring.

Divine _ msn and Loudmouth , the Big difference between you and Aboriginal People is that you are happy to have your lifestyle supported by unsustainable population Growth coupled with it's inevitable Environmental Vandalism.
This attitude and lifestyle has a limited lifespan .
Already we see Overpopulation ,sex selection, abortion, childless marriages and ADD as products of our mindless greed and Civilized Disfunction all done with gusto as we "progress".
All this with our University Degrees and Plans for the lucky ones to Colonise Space for when we have really stuffed up Earth .
Aboriginal Mythology has many stories of great Love between men and women . Nothing flash about their lifestyle but one to take their Societies through for another 60,000 years .

MIKK... agreed on all points.

Please don't vote GREEN though..which is most likely what John Tomlinson is on about... thinly disguised.

He is probably thinking of the Greens 'Indigneous friendly' policy

http://greens.org.au/policies/human-rights-democracy/international-relations

4. all peoples have the right to self-determination.

Of course... that 'self' determination might conflict just a tad with their other idea of

1. global governance is essential to meet the needs of global peace and security, justice, human rights, poverty alleviation and environmental sustainability.

If big Labor is kicking them in the guts now....how much MORE will 'globbbbaaalllllll' governance do worse ?

They won't even be a minor blip on Global radar.

I recommend an Independant who is not a Green Labor Coalition flunky...and has a brain...or.. Family First.

Jim,

'Divine _ msn and Loudmouth , the Big difference between you and Aboriginal People is that you are happy to have your lifestyle supported by unsustainable population ...'

That's a huge stretch - your gross misrepresentation about how people think, as if all whites think A and all Blacks think B, is simply ridiculous. But it must be fun, very comforting, to flog people for not doing the impossible - against the 22 million people in Australia (including the vast majority of Aboriginal people) who are not going to transform themselves into half a million people living around campfires.

But if you don't want to be involved with reality, with the real issues that confront all of us, if you want to float above it all in cuckoo-land, go for it.

Joe

"Aboriginal Mythology has many stories of great Love between men and women . Nothing flash about their lifestyle but one to take their Societies through for another 60,000 years"

Tell me a story then kartiya jim. I haven't come across any of the romantic happy ever after kind.

When I was young, having had a bush childhood and plenty exposure to indigenous kids and strong interest, I read everything I could find about Aboriginal legend. There were stories of Creation - of the world, aboriginal people, supernatural and magical beings, sacred sites, magical items plus evolution of different tribes and clans. Then lots of "fables" undoubtedly used to impress upon listeners the dos and don'ts of tribal society through frequently brutal examples. Plenty of infanticides, children killed by fathers, elders or 'bogeymen' for failing to fulfil certain duties, lovers eloping or women resisting the men they were promised to, pursued to death - often 'spirits' of these characters represented by stars or constellations eg. Seven Sisters cluster and so on ... Most 'romantic' one I recall was the young warrior who obsessed over a 'water-nymph' and through cunning and hunting skill captured her from among her sisters and took her away. He managed to 'tame' her with 'smoke' and 'sugar-bag' and believed her compliant. Going back to his country they came to a big waterhole. Some of the water-nymph sisters were waiting and when the woman went down to fetch water, quickly urged her to escape. Which she promptly did! Not surprising since the relationship was based on his obsession and dominance. However the man was heartbroken at this desertion, cut himself and mourned and never stopped looking for that lubra .... (poor fella him! Moral of THAT story - don't be fooling around with strange magic women cos it will end in tears. Might also have been hinting at female cunning)
Doubt it'd touch a million hearts ...

As for you Jimbo - I want a better one with a happy ever after ending - and it better be authentic!

divine_msn,

I just read the story that you were referring to and it's interesting your interpretation of the story. I should imagine the moral is you can't force someone to love you, by trick or deceit. That no matter how much you try and trick the person to love you, you can't. Family members and friends will always advise or interfere as some people would put it. And well the reality is, if your relationship is not based on love from both sides then it won't last, no matter how much "in love" one person is, love is a two way street and if you try and force someone to love you, well then you will just end up with a broken heart.

The aboriginal peoples of Australia led a sustainable existence and cared for the land for 60000 yrs+. We whiteys have wrecked it in less than 200.
Dont discount or denigrate traditional ways of life. It may not be long till we as a species are returned to it.

Quayle - actually the story involved forcible abduction, enslavement, at best sexual coercion, at worst rape and finally escape/rescue of the victim - to the sorrow of her captor. He may have 'loved' her - in the way the average perpetrator of domestic violence 'adores' his partner today. Likewise the obsession with finding and reclaiming the 'one that got away'

You do crack me up though. Love matches were DEFINATELY NOT the normal marital arrangement in Aboriginal culture. Girls were promised, usually to much older men, according to complex rules about who could mate up with who and which old man owed which old man, oftimes from birth. Digression from that predetermined path brought unpleasant, even fatal, consequences. Ditto young Romeos trying to muscle in. Despite all the hoo-haa about womens business and roles in decision making you hear about nowadays, the life of a traditional woman was pretty much one of subservience and little choice. From stories of the old white people who knew the natives before too much European influence, overt protest from a lubra would likely earn her a crack over the head or similar disincentive. One old timer told me once, "When a whitefella belts his Mrs he'll give her black eyes, split lips and a good bruising but when a blackfella gives his Mrs a hiding it doesn't count unless she can't move for 3 days"

Maybe that mob was particularly misogynistic .... I don't know but the traditional stories of boy meets girl, they fall in love and want to be together quickly degenerate into: Boy and girl abscond rousing the wrath of tribe and her intended/husband and the unfortunate lovers are hunted down and severely punished or killed. Sometimes the lovers in spirit form ascend into the sky (romantic). The upshot is the 'husband' or other pursuers assume like form and continue the chase (bummer!) These were stories told to young people - message being, I assume, bucking the system and trying to make your own matches is going to end in tears (and blood). Sweet huh?

Divine
Myths do not necessarily depict reality. They are there to teach lessons. I would have thought that the lesson was about making sure that incest and other close family marriages eg first and second cousins prohibited from marrying,unlike like the British royals, roman royals etc of our glorious ancestors. The myths and gods of Indigenous people are in no way more or less violent than the ones with which I was educated such as the ancient gods of Greece and Rome, Grimms Fairy Tales and so on.

What a shame that so much of the attention John's article has been focused on disavowing the perspectives of the many aboriginal nations here. Denials and gainsaying prevent us all from reaching common ground, learning from each other and developing as a people.

The idea that the State can and should allow bureaucrats to "manage"the money of income maintenance recipients is repugnant. The fact that it is done first in Indigenous communities on the pretext that these people are somehow incapable of living human lives BECAUSE they are Aboriginal is racist.

Participation in decision making about all aspects of our lives, health and communities makes for healthy people and healthy communities. (See Healthy Participation National Health Strategy of which Ms Macklin was a co-author.)

My last word, as it is clear that no consensus can be reached in this, kind of forum, is
As ye sow so shall ye reap

Jennie dear, it is not because they are Aboriginal, it is because they are IRRESPONSIBLE. It is a MINORITY of Aborigines affected - the ones who are not taking proper care of their children.

Doesn't this provision also now apply to anyone who is totally abusing welfare payments in order that some of the money gets spent on ensuring that the kids at least get a feed? So if that provision was enacted FIRST in some Aboriginal communities could it have been because of the appalling need for it?

On Planet Jennie does that matter? You seem to think that everything aboriginal is somehow 'sacred' 'untouchable' 'unquestionable' by we white fellas? God knows why? Their 'culture' is no more 'noble' than our own and not based on peace and love and total oneness with the Earth. In fact there's a lot less of it. Go check out a camp or outstation and see how the custodians treat their surrounds? Unfortunately not everything is as biodegradable as it was 200 years ago. Swap places with a traditional Aboriginal woman for a week. Just how much experience ACROSS THE BOARD have you had with Aboriginal people anyway? For heavens sake, take off the blinkers and get a view of REALITY. There's lots of good happening out there with Aboriginal people integrating into mainstream society. There's truly terrible things happening in some places and it's not white mans fault - it's aboriginal doing it to aboriginal - like has been going on for millenia. FACT!

Right on, Ms Divine. Myths reflect SOCIAL reality, the power of some, usually the older men, over the rest. Myths are cautionary tales to pull subordinates into line, and to reinforce the 'culture' that keeps them there.

Mikk,

Once upon a time, ALL of our ancestors lived in Paleolithic societies - in parts of Britain, until barely a thousand years ago. The last official witch-burning in Europe occurred in 1929, in Hungary. Jesus, talk about the effects of myths.

Nowadays, the vast majority of Aboriginal people live in urban environments, 99 % live in houses with electricity, most have access to cars and pretty much all are dependent on a money economy. 25,000 Aboriginal people are university graduates - that's one in every nine adults - and that is set to double by 2020. That's the direction that Aboriginal society is going in, regardless of 'culture', ideology or the wishes of the white middle-class pseudo-left, who would prefer that all Aboriginal people bugger off into the sticks for another 60,000 years. Not going to happen.

Just like pretty much everyone else, Aboriginal people had drastic effects on the environment; firing practices completely changed Australia's landscape and accelerated soil erosion. Nothing unique about that: over-grazing, over-cultivation, burning practices - these all had negative environmental effects all around the world, until people learnt (usually the hard way) or didn't learn at all, and simply moved on into some other group's country.

Nobody is exceptionally learned about the environment, particularly if they are utterly unaware of the long-term effects they are having on it, which has been all of us, including Aboriginal people.

Joe Lane

Loudmouth,
How about a bit of realism Joe,Western Society is at present on the same flight path as that of the Mythical " OOH AHH " bird that flies around in ever decreasing circles until it disappears somewhere smelly; even Blind Freddy [who was most likely Aboriginal] knows this .
We just don't like the answers to our excesses and the sooner we live simpler lives and use our intelligence in sensible ways to conserve what we have left the better .
For some this is impossible to countenance.
Ms divine.- very hard to please !
However I offer the Anmatyerre [Pronounced Amud-jerr-ah]Love Story that appears in the famous Tjapaltjarri Painting .
This has the luring, by Love Magic of a Napangati young woman to a Tjungurrai man's camp who by law should have married a Nangala Skin woman.The woman, who loved the "wrong-side " man, went to him .
The Elders allowed the pair to stay together although it was against usual Traditional Law,so greatly impressed were they by the power of the magic .
Did they live "Happily ever after " ? I think so !
Ps.The last time I was in an Aboriginal community , it was very clean, the people were generally very healthy and happy .Many of the young people were Computer savvy ,while respecting their language ,Elders and Culture.
While there, only time I heard a disturbed dog bark at night was when at 1am in the morning I went to the Testra Phone to try to find out the whereabouts of a white contracter friend who had gone drinking outside the Station Boundary and in a drunken had got lost in his vehicle .
If some Aboriginal People have Severe Social problems, or any group in our dominant Society we should ask THEM "Why"?
They don't need University degrees to tell us but we don't ask .

kartiya jim
Thank you . You expressed my thoughts so beautifully and simply..

Jim,

'We just don't like the answers to our excesses and the sooner we live simpler lives and use our intelligence in sensible ways to conserve what we have left the better .
For some this is impossible to countenance.'

Yes, we live in an imperfect world, but more people than ever before in history are aware that that is so. The issue is not how to reject it all lock, stock and barrel, but what to do about those imperfections ? Nobody is going to go back to a Stone Age existence, in Britain, Asia, Australia, or anywhere else. But the option is always available, Jim: off you go :)

I was intrigued about your attack on Indigenous people with university degrees: you wouldn't be an Indigenous academic or 'leader' by any chance ? I guess it's getting harder to be a member of a tiny Indigenous elite, when there are tens of thousands of Indigenous university graduates out there now, and tens of thousands more to come, breathing down your neck.

Joe

Jim - checked out lovestory from Tjapaltjarri Painting you quoted. You may've been a little child when you heard your version. Read on:

".. he engaged in his ceremony designed to capture the heart of a woman who was unsuitable for the young ancestor to marry in accordance with traditional law. The ancestor, however, was too taken by the woman to give up on her affection, so he continued his love ceremony.

Driven by passion, the ancestor’s ceremony also involved `singing` a love song, which travelled to the woman’s campsite some distance away and crept into her dreams. When the woman woke all she could think about was the young ancestor and so she made her way to Ngarlu to find him, represented by footprints that lead south to the ancestor’s ground design. Other prints in this work represent tracks of the ancestor which he made searching the area for materials used for his ceremony. The ancestor is also represented by symbolic U-shape resting near unspun tuffs of hair and a nulla nulla which also doubles as a phallic symbol.

The other phallic symbol in this work is the diamond shape motif that represents the woman and doubles to give expression to a similar looking rock at Ngarlu said to be the woman’s `sex`, which changed into stone after she and her lover-husband were killed by family members for breaking the law which prohibited them from marrying. This, however, is but one version of the law-breaking couple's fate when three are actually told: one for children, which is less of a Shakespearian love tragedy; another for the uninitiated, which the artist claimed was often told by people with little knowledge; then there is a third that the artists claims is “the true one” in which the law-breaking couple were killed, but their children were left to live on at Larumba (Napperby Soakage) as Anmatyarre, or Pultara, `children of the wrong skin`."

Artist usually knows his subject eh?

BTW which community you visit? Must get you directions to the ones I reckon you should reform! COLLECT JENNIE ON THE WAY.....

divine_msn
You actually crack me up "Ditto young Romeos trying to muscle in".

Assumptions are so easy, one I am not a man and two, well I'm Aboriginal and I often tell Dreamtime stories and their interpretations. But what would I know about interpretations?

It's interesting that you talk of gloom of doom in regards to Aboriginal Dreamtime Stories given most moral and law stories are about repercussions of actions, for example the Bible is filled with stories based on morals, law and repercussions, I'm sure you won't find a love story in the Bible! The First Testament is filled with gloom and doom! Jesus crucified on the cross after being lashed, Cain and Able, the plague, floods, famines, do I need to go on.

You should read and understand Dreamtime stories within their context and not make assumptions of knowing.

I am further amazed of your assumptions of marriage, not all tribes are the same, given there were 200 different tribal groups throughout Australia, there were similarities and differences, not every tribe practiced the same marriage ceremonies. There were certainly marriages where women and men were around the same age and there was certainly love or an obligation of looking after each other.

Traditional Aboriginal women were and are not subservient as we are not today. Aboriginal women still today play a big part in their communities, we believe that Aboriginal women are the backbone's of our society.

As for some dysfunctional families you see in Aboriginal communities today that is due to the removal of Aboriginal children from their families, as the removal policy of institionalisation and growing up without love and stability created many psychological problems that Aboriginal people are facing and trying to re-address today.

Perhaps you should read http://www.e-contentmanagement.com/books/65/orphaned-by-the-colour-of-my-skin-a-stolen. The book presents a rare autobiographical journaling of the psychological impact of institutionalisation on an Indigenous woman, her search for family, community and identity, her psychological breakdown and her personal reconstruction through telling her story. Perhaps you should learn to listen and I mean really listen first without forming or making an assumption.

Quayle - I agree about the Bible though your quotes are off target. Old Testament is Creation, Law, Genealogy, Jewish History and includes bloodthirsty tales of sin, crime and consequence, wars etc, and prophecy.(Adult reading mostly and heavy duty at that) New Testament deals with life and works of Jesus and his Apostles.

Realise there're Dreamtime stories for youngsters that are not "doom and gloom" as you say, just like Christians don't teach 8yr olds olden times punishment for breaking most 10 commandments was death.

I'm not aboriginal. My knowledge is from association and keen interest. I've read anthropology works and collections of Myths and Legends from different regions. Serious ones - not kiddies stories, are invariably ' Old Testament biblical' used to maintain social order and patriarchal hierarchy.

Yes - Patriarchal. Women had ceremonies and power to produce new life but Quayle, it's fact they had as much choice as women living in tribal Afghanistan today. Still same for some traditional women but not majority thankfully.

I truly sympathise with the plight of aboriginal people living in environments of squalor, substance abuse, violence, sexual abuse, child neglect and abuse but don't accept the "stolen generation" explanation. While forcible removals undoubtedly caused many pain and damage it also saved at least an equal number. While 'whitey' is always accused of racism, blackfellas were very colour concious at tribal level. With the laws about who gets to bonk who, birth of mixed-race children wasn't greeted with coroborees of JOY. My 'ancestors' told me life for a mixed boy precluded full acceptance (initiation)and no marriage prospects, while mixed girls were considered inferior, often treated like slaves. "They're neither one or the other" lamented Grandfather who sacked any man suspected of fooling with native women. I understood child removals began to counter the plight of these kids but despite noble intention it went overboard.
Regardless, those 'saved' gained education and skills to live in the wider world which is what Aboriginals must do to survive and thrive. BTW I had mixed-race brother, legally adopted, mother wasn't coerced. Sadly died at 19 - MVA.

Loudmouth,
Am certainly NOT criticising Aboriginal University Graduates - Oh that we would have had our "Treaty of Waitangi" for Australia in 1865, that may have given us our first Aboriginal Medical Graduate around 1900 as happenened in New Zealand !
divine_msn ,thanks for the versions of the "Love Story" . These many Aboriginal myths and stories could be our equivalent to the European - Greek and Roman Legends that we learnt about as children .
Those Landmark Geographical Features we love to take a photo of in our local areas would at one time ,not all that long ago have a wealth of Events that occurred to make them what they are .
It was Tjapaltjarri that said that basically the Story behind the painting was more important than the painting itself .
The community I visited is in the Kimberleys - their leaders are survivors from the big round-up of Aboriginal People that were taken to town from their traditional Country where they worked, and forced to live in town where many died a premature death from alcoholism,poor food and smoking diseases, the station owners preferring to employ helicopters rather than pay decent wages to their employees .
Just where are these Communities that you want to criticise ?
For me I would rather spend my time trying to help them rather than abusing them .

divine_msn please don't put words in my mouth,while I do admit that I got my Bible interpretations wrong, the gist was Dreamtime stories are about repercussions of people's actions, like the Bible. I never said all Dreamtime Stories are of gloom and doom, I actually wrote "It's interesting that you talk of gloom of doom in regards to Aboriginal Dreamtime Stories given most moral and law stories are about repercussions of actions."

In regards to Aboriginal women, please don't interpret my culture, Aboriginal women shared an interdependent relationship with the men playing a dominant role in child rearing and food gathering and sharing the roles of healers, law makers, performers, painters and custodians of traditional ways.

I am sorry to hear about your brother and maybe he was one of the fortunate few. The Human Rights Commission report "Bringing them Home" http://www.hreoc.gov.au/social_Justice/bth_report/report/index.html, mentioned many Aboriginal children who were removed and the abuse they suffered. The inquiry into the stolen children was established by the federal attorney-general in 1995. It was conducted by the Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission and published its findings and recommendations in 1997.

It concluded that the forcible removal of indigenous children was a gross violation of their human rights.

As for anthropology I also find the topic area interesting, but the readings have also be known to be riddled with mistakes, especially when you are relying on writers who like to add their views, bias, assumptions and opinions and given they are looking at the world through their eyes and divine_msn remember most historical writers were not Aboriginal and tried to interpret a society, people and language, that in some instances they did not speak the language nor understood the people or society, most English people at the time could not even comprehend a democratic society. http://wwwmcc.murdoch.edu.au/ReadingRoom/serial/AJCS/1.1/Muecke.html

Just like opinions online, each person even though reading the same topic will interpret or add their versions.

Quayle,

How many cases of forcible removal have gone to court and been found to have been examples of an entire stolen generation ?

One: in South Australia. One case across all of Australia. Since 1900. Surely there should be more than one ? There must have been hundreds of examples of officious bureaucrats or coppers, in 110 years, in all the states and territories, who overstepped their powers and took Aboriginal kids into care, illegally ? Even without having to posit some devilish plot to 'turn Aboriginal kids into little white kids', something not known in any other racist society - just simple bureaucratic over-reach ?

Joe Lane

I'll start by apologising from the start to all aborigines for my assumptions that follow. But everyone else has been making assumptions now called interpretations so why not me or anyone else.
Dreamtime stories are wonderfdul nature-enriched stories that fulfilledthe needs of the primitive pre-Whiteys arrival. Post-whitey's communities today are nothing more than failed industrial/commercialised ones with embedded Indigeneous communities. Those Dreamtime stories of old are no longer are relevant. Just as Judea-Christian stories are irrelevant. Both communities need to get into the 21st century's complex and make their adjustments.
To the indigenous people i say " Today needs a new set of Dreams that will work for you and its not about dreaming for another 2 flagons of wine or some more two litre bottles of Coke in one hand and Kentucky fries in the other. It isnt about incest and child abuse, beating up your women folk. Nor about what petrol sniffing will give you in the way of chemical dreams.
Its time to awake. Dreaming belongs to the night time. Live in the sun.
socratease

Quayle - I don't put words in anyone's mouth! Words are mine to comment or in rebuttal if I've an alternate POV or perceive inaccuracies. What comes out of your mouth is your responsibility.

You present as someone politically active in aboriginal affairs. I'm interested to learn a little background. Taking your ability to communicate well in generally good english and use electronic media I'm guessing you're <45 with reasonable education. Frequent internet useage means it's probable you live in contempory housing with electricity and modern amenities. Also guess that like most of todays Aboriginals you are of mixed race? Meeting you, would I likely deduct from appearance that you have aboriginal heritage? Growing up, did you get an "aboriginal education" from family/ elders and identify strongly as aboriginal? If you are mixed heritage, what influences came from the non-aboriginal side? What field are you employed in? Are you active in an aboriginal community outside close family?

I ask out of interest in experiences of people who may be in process of transition - feet planted firmly in the 21st century but wishing to retain the best of old beliefs and traditions. Is this you?

Certainly from writings, one assumes that for you, aboriginal culture has evolved into a softer, less rigid belief system. Could this be response to changing spiritual needs of people living in a current 'Western' environment? I'm not having a swipe at you. I'd make comparision that Western Christians stopped burning "witches" couple of hundred years ago though "witchcraft" is still unacceptable.

Most aboriginals I actually 'know' nowadays (opposed to contact through healthcare systems) are Christian. All are mixed-race living "Australian" lifestyles. Some maintain favoured traditions - particularly hunting, fishing and bush foods. Others, especially young adults seem disinterested.

Absolutely no belief in Kadaitcha Men among any of them methinks.

You say women are backbone of todays Aboriginal society. I won't argue. Good strong women are the most determined agents of change and improvement in their communities by my observations though many face extremely hard battles. If you're part of that Quayle, I wish you success.

Hi divine_msn,

Yes, I am an older Aboriginal woman 45+ and very proud, yes, I did go to school and receive an education, and yes, I am a frequent internet user. I have learned and continued to learn from many mediums.

I agree many cultures do move and transform over time, no culture can stay frozen and of course many are influenced by external players regardless of whether they choose to or not.

But if my culture is influenced by other cultures does that make me unAboriginal? like when Australians take on many other influences from other cultures, does that make them unAustralian?

How much Australian culture is influenced by Aboriginal culture? I imagine more then what people know or think about, name places for example "Parramatta" certainly isn't an English word, it's Aboriginal for Eel Dreaming, Oh! and there is the Eels, Parramatta football team, I wonder if their emblem was influenced by Aboriginal knowledge?

Then there is billabong, an Aboriginal word for waterhole and yet, it's a word in "Waltzing Matilda and a famous Australian clothing brand. So whose culture influenced and influences who? Australia is Australia because it's Aboriginal people and of course other things but it history is very much about Aboriginal people.

I have traveled overseas and observed that Australian English is very different from the England's English, American English, New Zealand English, why did the English language evolve in Australia differently? Why are there words like Parramatta, Cabramatta, Billabong, galah, coo-ee, why do Australians call people "silly galahs?" and no other English speaking nation does?

So who influenced and influences who? does your influence take away my being? or is my culture also adopted into yours?

So why can't we just accept that like many other cultures we do have a past, that is present today and will also influence our future - that culture can shift, change and move and still be very much a culture formed by it's original origins?

Loudmouth you ask me how many cases of forcible removal have gone to court and been found to have been examples of an entire stolen generation ?

I take it you think the legal system equates justice, that everyone who takes on a legal action will receive justice, nice notion, not a reality, but it would be nice and that if I go to Court for my legal matter, then my matter sets a precedent for every other matter, it can sometimes but it depends whether the Government wants to set up a Tribunal or alternative.

The Tasmanian Government just compensated Aboriginal people removed from their families rather then paying out millions in legal actions and to right a wrong.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200611/s1799592.htm

Any legal action around the stolen generations becomes very complex:
http://www.eniar.org/stolengenerations.html.

As for "just simple bureaucratic over-reach", maybe you should tell ALL the Aboriginal children that were removed and parents suffering that.

Socratease,
Your 220 years of history all sounds a bit boring - I would much rather look at our landscape and "see" the Myths that brought it into existence , hear the chants ,the language and see how life went on without the excesses of modern life .

Unfortunately, but naturally ,with the red-neck and racist attitudes of many so called Australians , the Keepers of Aboriginal Myths and Legends quickly worked out they would rather, except for those whom they can trust ,keep their 50,000 years of history to themselves.