Trav,

In the fifteenth century, in Germany, when the Churches were held more charge the average life span of a male was 22 years. I saw that on a documentary yesterday, after my last post.

Michael in Adelaide, Ben in Hobart here -

Firstly, we are all prejudiced, including those of us who try not to be. That's not a bad thing per se, it just embellishes our characters.
Not even judges are balanced, nor journalists. Everyone has an angle, Michael.

Yes, religion has been used as an excuse for human conflict. It's not the only excuse. I'm sick of militant/fundamentalist atheists (not that I'm calling you one) harping on about religion causing warfare. Almost all religions go on about peace between neighbours. Political/military leaders start wars, and often use religion, ethnicity, or some other point of difference as a xenophobic excuse for warfare, when in reality it is more often a question of ego. Napoleon? Hitler? Pol Pot? Mao Tse Tung? What are political boundaries if not a line of difference between peoples, enforced by armies led my global egos?

And I'd like to add that environmentalism is far from incompatible with religion. Although some church leaders rail against humanism (when that is clearly just philosophical love of fellow man), or environmentalism (which could be simplistically seen as love of the environment), and see them as competing priorities for passionate people, when a love of God is paramount in church leaders' priorities... Actually, environmentalism and humanism are completely compatible with religion. Both the environment and people were created by God(some believe), how could thinking religionists not care about God's creations? I personally do see a lot of religionists who are very active in lots of good causes, some of which have nothing to do with religious charities. While some religionists are mental retards, others are exceptionally responsible and socially active pillars of society. And there are also bad eggs like those responsible for sex abuse scandals. So how do we encourage people to be more responsible and try harder to play a beneficent part in the world's development? Organised religion plays no small part in this.

If you don't mind Salvo's and Vinnies sticking around, they will continue to feed and clothe you and me both. If you don't mind.

Snake, religion can be both tax exempt & a private matter.

The lines get blurred when the principle of, "separation of church & state" is messed with. As it was in the 4th century, when "Catholic" Christianity was adopted by the Roman Empire as the official Religion.

That, lead to all the corruptions, that people like the article author, like to use, to attack "Christianity" &/or all religions.

Runner, Correct as usual.

BTW, which church are you with, i am looking for a new one? Mainstream Christianity, in my view has been dying for about 5 decades now.

Partly because of an assault by, all the new Religions like, "Climate Change" but mostly because i think they have also dropped the ball, on confronting evil.

Karl Marx said, "Religion is the opiate of the masses" all hail the new religion, 'ISM Schism. ALGOREisRICH's PC Video nails it in one.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236#

David f, i too found the article very thought provoking. I have been deeply concerned about the separation of church & state which our constitution has always, clearly called for.

The worst offenders are of course the red/green/getup/labour coalition who have been bribing the churches for decades with school funding, but over the last decade or so, in particular, have moved on to "Welfare".

Their loony, left Governments have been progressively outsourcing essential government services to churches &/or their NGOs. So, what bishop would now dare speak out against incompetence or corruption & risk the jobs of thousands of their employees?

Micheal in Adelaide, there is one problem that the author & you have missed. In the 17th century & until about 5 decades ago religion was extremely beneficial.

Namely all the benefits or improvements in modern western democracy, that we take for granted today, were introduced by "Good Men, of Faith" who wrote America's constitution &/or everything decent in Britain from "Industrial Revolution" reforms of the Victorian era going back to the "Magna Carta".

All of this Honest, Decent, work was done by Christians, mostly Protestants, protesting about religious, oppression, among other things.

C J Morgan, Are you sure that your precious Red/greens are NOT a new religion, replacing "Christianity" etc?

If the world &/or this country ends up with an "ETS". Please Guarantee to us that, "International Banksters" making Squillions from, "Carbon Trading" will NOT make "Tax Deductible" donations, to Red/green NGOs, that will end up with people like "Honest, Bob Brown" on their boards, after they have collected their Super & Gold Pass?

Ditto, if we end up with a "Carbon Tax". Guarantee that future Red/green/getup/labour coalition governments will not "Grant" funds to Red/green NGOs, QUANGOs, etc, Please, C J, can you do that for us?

Please also comment, about my earlier comment, on "The New Religions" that have been around since the 1960's?

Also C J, Runner, myself, ALGOREisRICH & i am sure many others as well, would argue that any negatives you, the article author, or any others can point to, from over the last century or so, can be explained by the type of perversions of modern western democracy & religion, that we have been talking about on this & other threads. Try this one for size.

http://www.fatimaperspectives.com/cs/perspective235.asp

Also if you are struggling with the difference between Marxism & all the other ISM, SCHISMs try these again, just to be sure.

http://www.whirlingdervishes.org/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236#

http://www.lawfulpath.com/ref/greening.shtml

Trav, Well said Buddy.

McReal, i agree, but read both of my comments on the perversion of religion by our politicians, try the links & then comment further.

PeterA, Church NGOs have been doing, outsourced essential government services, at radically lower costs, for ages now. Look at the difference in, "Bang for buck" that the Catholic Education system, has gotten for its BER funding for example.

I have concerns about the separation of church & state that may be different to yours, but we all must acknowledge that our Christian churches, have been doing some sterling government work for peanuts.

Hey "David f" and "Snake"
I totally disagree with your opinions.

Calling an economical approach to energy consumption a green religion only because you do not agree with this point of view is too cheap an excuse for just opposing a topic or not understanding it.

John Howard was the guy who increased funding for Catholic schools not the Greens or Labor or the Reds. There is no real socialist or communist party in Australia. I wonder if the latter still is banned?

It is the neo-conservatism movement which is misusing orthodox christian beliefs for their purposes. GW Busch created the axis of evil and called the war against terror a crusade. J Howard followed in his footsteps repeating the slogans like a parrot and involved Australia in the Irak war based on blatant lies. Abbot seems to be on the same line. I rather would like to have any atheist PM than a politician who did not become a priest.

Downfall of Christianity during the last 5 decades as you say has nothing to do with not facing the evil or Darvin but with the fact that the Catholic church is the longest lasting "dictatorship" on earth, that it's leaders want to make rules for their members family and sex life without having any expertise and at the same time cover for guys in their ranks who molest minors.

That's why I left this club. There is no need to be member of a church to have Christian believes and to follow the basic rules of the ten amendments which are clearly a benefit for the public and living together in harmony.

Chris

Clownfish, but many people in the past have done, exactly that, made up a new religion or church, so as to, take advantage of their Sheeple & government incentives, like "Tax Advantages".

Magnificat Meal Movement anybody, or "The Bhagwan", maybe try watching the movie "Leap of Faith" with Steve Martin, not a huge fan of his, but that movie was brilliant.

tonyf, the studies Trav mentioned are true, but the Nirvana's you mentioned, are all going broke right now. Japan is quite religious, as are some of the countries you mentioned, like Switzerland.

The good things you mentioned, also applied, in spades, to Australia between 1945 & the 1960's? Since then, our society & governments have been, falling apart at the seams?

McReal, again, Those questions of yours could, equally apply to secular people, who proselytise about, "the greatest moral challenge of our time" &/or then, discover that their, "fearless leader" has, "feet of clay" or that the message was all "Spin Doctored" Lies. Deliberate, Premeditated, Lies.

examinator, i put some links in my comments today, i nearly always do. Have you ever tried any of them?

Have you never met a secular, paranoid, conspiracy theorist? I have met many, who are Atheists, you would be too if you had been abused by an allegedly, religious, person or government official.

I have always found their theories to be backed by at least SOME facts & like in the movie "Pelican Brief" with Julia Roberts & Mel Gibson, usually a lot of facts.

I am not frightened of other races or religions either, as a matter of principle, but like 80% to 90% of the population, i am concerned about racial & religious extremists, who are here in OZ, right now.

Thanks to the Extremist, Proselytising of Multicultural Immigration policies, by the Red/green/getup/labour coalition.

If you go to the World's Worst War zones & import an equal number of combatants from all sides of the conflict, you will get some damaged goods, together with plenty of crime, brawls, riots, racial tension & more pressure on our health/hospital system.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/1063221/australian-woman-held-in-yemen

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/1062780/officials-told-about-hiv-acrobat-in-2004

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/1052753/asylum-seeker-riot-leaves-three-injured