Glenc
I think your 'misdirected' comments were meant for me.
You don't seem to have intended to come across in the manner I interpreted, however, so I apologise for the Heill Hitler line, though your position did sound a lot like national socialism.
Indoctrination (or 'interpellation', as Althusser has it) takes place from the beginning, but that's like the operating software in a computer. The indoctrination I'm against is more like malicious software that introduces irrational elements that can distort processing, or even irretrievably corrupt it. I don't think religion is necessarily a virus, it might even help some machines run more efficiently, but when it's introduced indiscriminately, opportunistically and invasively, it can only be deemed a virus.
Nationalism and racialism are for me the basest instincts we posses; properly primordial yet stubbornly atavistic, cultivated rather than genetically encrypted, they're nothing but the empty tropes of bigots.
Spirituality, which doesn't have to be institutional, can be a healthy sign of rebellion, and thus should be left to its own devices.

Squeers,
If nationalism and racialism are:
"base instincts"
"properly primordial"
"stubbornly atavistic"
which all point to genetic encryption,
how can they be cultivated?
Or are your words just the "empty tropes of a bigot"?

Proxy:
<Squeers,
If nationalism and racialism are:
"base instincts"
"properly primordial"
"stubbornly atavistic"
which all point to genetic encryption,
how can they be cultivated?
Or are your words just the "empty tropes of a bigot"?>

Have you lighted upon the ambiguity of language?
Any deconstruction worthy of the name settles for nothing less than reversal (of meaning), which is why Wittgenstein (an analytic!) designated our most concerted reasoning "language games". You may readily find all the logical flaws you please in my mode of expression, but that's because language is unstable (though of course my reasoning may be flawed as well, regardless of the rules of the game). And language is not only our mode of expression and communication, it's also, crucially, our mode of 'apprehension'. What of direct knowledge then, unmediated...?

However, it's the only game in town and so one is obliged to play.
I used the word 'base', regardless of it's primordial connotations,
as an adjective to deplore racialism and nationalism (though the distinction isn't important). After a semi-colon I went on to say that these were "properly primordial yet stubbornly atavistic"--ie, still emergent in civilised modern man. Except that today they are "cultivated rather than genetically encrypted ... [thus] nothing but the empty tropes of bigots"; my meaning being that bigots invoke primeval latency, dormant but never far beneath the civilised veneer, for their own rhetorical ends. Racialism and nationalism are no longer needed for survival, yet they're not quite extinct; they're cultivated by zealots for whatever political/ideological reason (no doubt with genuine sincerity), and used to manipulate and seduce as many as they can to their cause.
There is no imperative behind racialism or nationalism, they're just sensitive spots that are easily and opportunistically inflamed.

Exactly Foxy; I fully understood you. This is how I have raised my children. Left the religion side all the way through for them to make their own decisions and in relation to Christianity.

I would love them to have faith in God for the benefits I have received through life; yet if not so, always respect their rights as Individuals to be athiests if that is what they choose.

My parents never forced religion or attending mass on Sundays onto me, rather, gave me an insight into believing in God and left it up to me through my own life to follow whatever I wanted. The same with all of my siblings. Morals and values were a more important focus, regarding the treatment of other people as opposed to religion.

Dear We Are Unique,

Thank You for your kind words.

It's a tough job being a parent.
Children present problems which
don't disappear, even when a
parent believes in love, respect,
acceptance, individual differences,
and personal uniqueness. Though
magnificent, these concepts are too
abstract and too large. They're like
a thousand-dollar-note-good currency,
but useless in meeting mundane needs
such as buying a cup of coffee, taking
a taxi, or making a phone call. Parents
need psychological small change. They need
specific skills for dealing effectively and
humanely with minute-to-minute happenings-the
small irritations, the daily conflicts, the
sudden crises. All these situations call for
helpful and realistic reactions. A parent's
response has crucial consequences. It creates
a mood of contentment or contention. It
affects the child's behaviour and character for
better or for worse.

These are the fact of emotional life which make
teaching and learning possible or impossible.
At their best, parents recognize the core
truth: learning is always in the present tense,
and it is always personal.

We can only do what we think is best for our child.
We're expected to reach unattaiable goals with
inadequate tools. The miracle is that at times
we accomplish this impossible task.

GlenC
Thanks for the debate, i think as a single father of three i spend a lot of time considering whether i am doing the right thing or not. probably i should not worry so much but instead make sure they are free to make choices in their lives for themselves. Acting as the safety net is scary but in the end its how we all learn't. At least i know i learn't most things the hard way. I came upon a saying that i have found to be true "you can pass on experience but you cannot pass on wisdom"
The varied ideals that have been put forward are i am sure done with the best intentions. Some of the thoughts and comments in the debate i have found some what misguided and at times difficult to understand. The way people think and the concepts they hold to be true a varied and whether they are based on fact or faith they are all valid as they all exist in the community we share. I am sure the debate over what constitutes the abuse of a child could rage for ever. Remember that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Moving forward i will continue to challenge my understandings of the world and try as best i can to understand by what i know not what i believe.