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The Forum > Article Comments > Childhood — a time of innocence and indoctrination > Comments

Childhood — a time of innocence and indoctrination : Comments

By Glen Coulton, published 23/4/2010

Is requiring children to adopt the religious beliefs of their parents not akin to child abuse?

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grateful,
<<btw TBC there is no verse in the Qur'an that refers to stonning, let alone the stonning of women.>>
Are you being disingenuous or just practising taqiyyah or maybe both?
Islamic doctrine is not limited to the Koran.
The Hadith, Sunnah and Shariah law also contribute.
Even if it were true that no verse "in the Qur'an refers to stonning" it is still practised in various Islamic states as part of Islamic law.
Posted by Proxy, Wednesday, 5 May 2010 11:01:09 PM
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TBC you wrote:
QUOTE

Surely, if all this is worth doing, it's worth doing, and there should be no need for such a cheap thing as a 'reward' at the end of it, like a bounty hunter works for?
ENDQUOTE

I take you point. This issue has come up among scholars. On the one hand how can a person’s actions be considered for the sake of Allah if motivated by personal reward. On the other hand, the reward is offered and underpinning the actions of a person who would be solely motivated by the reward of the Hereafter (and this is a hypothetical case which probably is not found in reality) would afterall be a belief in Allah and the Hereafter.

There are degrees of imaan (faith) and those who are motivated by reward would not among the highest in faith. Those whose motivation is love of Allah and whose thoughts and actions are with Allah until they are distracted by nothing but Allah rise above the rest of us.

The following famous Hadith-al Qudsi (what the Prophet reported of Allah saying but not of the Qur’aan itself) gives expression to this idea:

Abu Hurairah, radiyallahu 'anhu, reported that the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wasallam, said:
"Allah the Almighty has said: 'Whosoever acts with enmity towards a closer servant of Mine (wali), I will indeed declare war against him. Nothing endears My servant to Me than doing of what I have made obligatory upon him to do. And My servant continues to draw nearer to Me with supererogatory (nawafil) prayers so that I shall love him. When I love him, I shall be his hearing with which he shall hear, his sight with which he shall see, his hands with which he shall hold, and his feet with which he shall walk. And if he asks (something) of Me, I shall surely give it to him, and if he takes refuge in Me, I shall certainly grant him it.'"
[Al-Bukhari]

cont..1/2
Posted by grateful, Saturday, 22 May 2010 10:20:59 PM
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SecularGuy:
Quote
Apostasy... forcing people (under the threat of death) to submit to your religious practices is repugnant to me.

I R-E-A-L-L-Y do take exception to that ! ! !

unquote

Islam was not spread by force. You can find the proof in the writings of eminant historians who have state this explicitly Eg non-Muslims such as Espisito who edited the Oxford History of Islam* or Prof (and Sir) Thomas Arnold's "The Spread of Islam in the World: A History of Peaceful Preaching".

*http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/book/islam-9780195107999/islam-9780195107999-miscMatter-6

A concrete example of the principles to be followed by Muslims is the following Charter of Privileges issued in 628 C.E. by the Prophet to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai.

"This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion is to be on them.

Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.
The Muslims are to fight for them.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world)."
Posted by grateful, Saturday, 22 May 2010 10:23:11 PM
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grateful,
Still practising taqiyya?
Here is the real Islam, straight from the Koran and Hadith:
* Infidels are your sworn enemies (Sura 4:101).
* Be ruthless to the infidels (Sura 48:29).
* Make war on the infidels who dwell around you (Sura 9:123, 66:9).
* Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day (Sura 9:29).
* Strike off the heads of infidels in battle (Sura 47:4).
* If someone stops believing in Allah, kill him (al-Bukhari 9:84:57).
* Take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends (Sura 5:51, 60:13).
* Never be a helper to the disbelievers (Sura 28:86).
* Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (Sura 2:191).
* No Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel (al-Bukhari 1:3:111).
* The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land (Sura 5:33).
Posted by Proxy, Saturday, 22 May 2010 10:57:18 PM
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grateful,
what does your carefully prepared set of blatant lies have to do with the religious indoctrination of school children in state schools?
Posted by SecularGuy, Sunday, 23 May 2010 9:01:43 AM
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Well I'm very grateful for grateful's informative posts.. in fact..now..I'm a total convert.. his sources were impeccable and of course they were the originals....right ?

So.. clearly all of those who have believed Islam was spread by the sword are completely wrong.. Proxy .. u need a biggg smack :)

But Grateful.. would you agree that "Islamic rule" was spread by the sword?

Here..you have a nice discussion with a man named Umar (I think he was errr a Caliph or something.. u know..one of rightly guided ones or something... and his offsider 'Al Mughirah'.. they were quite close to the action I believe.

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/053.sbt.html#004.053.386

As for me? well..I'll just believe 'you' because you are so persuasive and all those western historians ? well they have to know more than those who were 'on the spot'...right ? Thanx for all that.

I'm now considering my future.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Sunday, 23 May 2010 2:38:52 PM
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