Marxism has many gestalts taken from Christianity. There is an Eden in the form of primitive communism. There is a period of class struggle, and a millennial apothesis in the eventual classless society. There is original sin in the invention of cpitalism which made man emerge from the Eden of primitive communism. It is another we/they philosophy which dehumanises its opponents as class enemies in the way that missionary religions such as Christianity and Islam dehumanise those who do not accept thewir faith as individuals. Marxism, like the JCI religions, is based on belief in unprovable propositions.

It is better to discard all we\they missionary faiths whether the superstition is Marxism, Christianity or Islam.

Candide

My suggestion for a card saying "You have just been helped by an Atheist", is a bit of satire. My point is that no-one knows who an atheist is by appearance, we are throughout all stations of life; from the 7-11 clerk to a QC. Just a conspicuous lack in politics - unless they are 'in the closet'.

When helping people, I know from their response a few have assumed I'm a Christian, having received many a "god, bless" from grateful people, nor have I bothered to disabuse them of their opinion - really, isn't providing help what it is all about? At least that is what I used to think until reading people like Forster.

But not according to Forster, GY and other christians, they are out to prove that atheists are selfish, uncharitable and materialistic. I and other atheists have every right to be affronted by these claims. Notice how GrahamY, CEO of OLO has not answered a single question I or any other atheist has asked on this forum. He has made many claims about us, but not answered the most telling of all:

"why so determined to prove atheists as less charitable"? The very basis of the claim for this article.

My only explanation is that many like Forster and Graham cannot deal with the fact that the majority of atheists are decent, generous and law-abiding people - like most Christians.

Most telling of all, it means if people can be 'good' without a religion, then why do we need religion at all?

>> Notice how GrahamY, CEO of OLO has not answered a single question I or any other atheist has asked on this forum.

which is why i yelled at him. of course graham then used that as an excuse to avoid another round of responses and questions, but he would have avoided it anyway.

graham loves to be sanctimonious about politeness. he has every right to make the rules/standards, and i don't totally disagree: i'm basically not sufficiently tolerant or polite for OLO culture. i'd not whine as it being inappropriate if he suspended me (but i wouldn't return).

but one thing about OLO which gives me the irrits, especially by the religious guys, is the conflation of politeness with respect. in fact, i usually read carefully what others write and usually try to respond to it with genuine content. i give my opponents the respect to read and to respond to their arguments. until at some point i give up. by comparison, the majority of what theists write here is insulting and obfuscation, nastiness delivered in gentle tones.

my impoliteness to graham on this thread pales in comparison to his disrespect of others.

Graham
Marx was an atheist, but marxism did not emerge primarily as an atheist movement. It's goals were political and more about distribution of wealth.

If you google Christian socialist you will find a myriad of Christian folk who believe in socialism and social justice issues. Not surprising when one thinks of the story of Jesus and the ideals he projected.

Marx saw the Church as supporting the old structures of the ruling classes. He also believed in the greatness and potential of man and the rule of reason.

Marx was not a secularist that is for certain and he fell into the same quagmire as many revolutionaries - that is becoming a despot to fight a despot. However, to compare atheism with marxism as one of the same achieves no purpose in this debate.

Many of the atheists on OLO are on the free market libertarian side of politics and would probably baulk at being compared with Marxism.

Considering the vicious, authoritarian regimes under the church in the dark ages, the statement that athiests are more prone to authoritarian, oppressive regime is a little rich.

The argument can easily go the other way.

Evil people are evil irrespective of their supposed belief. I have never tried to claim athiests are less prone to violence, or any other vice. However, there is no evidence that they are more prone either.

Religion does not make you a better or worse person. There are stinkers in all forms.

Well explained, Pelican.

Severin,
>>My suggestion for a card saying "You have just been helped by an Atheist", is a bit of satire."<<
I was surprised that someone didn't grasp that. Teee-heee the thought of handing out a business card after every good deed :)

In the past, I used to grin and bear it when people took me for a Christian. I've certainly become less shy and more outspoken during the last few years. If people tell me that I'm a good Christian I now ask them what makes them think I'm a Christian, and then enlighten them.

Shadow Minister,
>>Religion does not make you a better or worse person.<<

I can't remember who said this but I do tend to agree with it:
"Without religion you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things it takes religion."

Without religion, people wouldn't want to become suicide bombers.
Without religion, some children wouldn't be accused of witchery and burned at the stake or buried alive either.