Dear AJ,

This does not stand up to any sort of scrutiny:

"There have been many horrors throughout history committed in the name of religion, but the Marxist dictators of the 20th century did not do what they did in the name of Atheism. They did it in the name of a political ideology; a political ideology that consisted of, but was not fundamentally reliant, on Atheism."

Marxism is fundamentally built on Atheism. It holds that there is nothing but the material. It rejects any notion of god. It expresses that rejection in the repression of religion. Marx is often quoted as saying that religion is the opiate of the masses. It is atheistic and anti-religious. Atheism is at the core of Marxism. To deny that is to deny history and fact.

You want to have it both ways. Lumber Christians with actions taken by state actors who are Christian but absolve Atheists of the actions taken by state actors who are Atheist and who promulgate an atheist code.

BTW, you can't use some sort of etymological reductionism to define Atheism. Agnosticism does mean something different to Atheism. Agnosticism is scepticism and atheism is non-belief. You can be an agnostic without being an atheist and it is a useful term. Words do not always conform to a strict interpretation of their precedents.

I know there is a lot of point scoring on these forums, but why does it have to be that way?

TBC

I too read the Rhinehart's 'Dice Man' many moons ago now. And can appreciate the analogy that even though the protagonist was using dice as random means to make a decision - he had still thought of all the choices himself.

GY

<<< Marxism is fundamentally built on Atheism. >>>

Taking your claim to its logical conclusion, a couple of points spring to mind:

1. That while in your "atheist period" you must've by default supported Marxism.

2. That you believe all atheists to be Marxists.

Else why continually banging on about Marxism and atheism? And please explain numerous atheists such as Bill Gates, atheist, entrepreneur (ie NOT Marxist) and now very charitable - please don't trot out claims like his wife being a christian, neither of us know for sure, and besides, I think Bill can make his own decisions about his money.

Finally, by inferring the culmination of meaning of your posts on this topic, why are you so determined to cast atheism as, well, wrong?

What's it to you that there are atheists? We don't get special tax breaks, people can say what they like about us - we don't get any special 'anti-vilification' privileges, nor do we proselytise - one international meeting of like minded people doesn't count as proselytising. Atheists would be hard-pressed indeed to campaign like evangelists - mainly because we have better things to do, like going to the museum, art galleries, football, movies, rock concerts, astronomy displays, playing with our children, jogging with the dog, volunteer work, sitting looking at nature, being totally gobsmacked by holding a 400 million year old orthoceras fossil (bought just recently and sitting next to my computer) and just being happy and grateful for being here. I guess Runner will be disappointed to hear that I'm not out pillaging and raping.

>> Marxism is fundamentally built on Atheism. It holds that there is nothing but the material.

there's nothing like debating with someone who steadfastly makes stuff up, and refuses to read precise clarifications and refutations of what they keep banging on about.

but no, severin, graham is not saying that all atheists or marxists. what he is saying is that all marxists are atheists. in fact i doubt very much that that is true. but anyway, of course all marxists breathe oxygen, so i guess marxism is a denomination of oxygen breathers.

i'm also sure marx had little time for the flying spaghetti monster. so, i presume marxism is a denomination of anti-spaghettism as well, and that anti-spaghettiists cannot disown stain's gulags either.

what graham's macarthyist crap boils down to is this. once we accept that don't have a god or god-given principles to guide us, we accept that we have to figure this out for ourselves. for some, that may be cartoon materialism, for others a genocidal nihilism. for the overwheling majority, neither. but in any case, this is simply that the freedom to think gives the freedom to think poorly. and the only alternative is religious fundamentalism

graham, it is ridiculous to slur current christians with the crusades. but it is not ridiculous to point out that the crusades were justified at the time as acts of christianity, with references to sacred texts. those same texts are still pretty damn prominent.

so, it is perfectly reasonable to ask current christians what "christianity" means, how and why modern christianity (not counting uganda, and parts of america) is different from medieval christianity? why is it more than a bunch of humans trying to figure out the world, guided by a very old human book which contains both the beautiful and the barbaric?

there is no corresponding question you can legitimately ask of atheists.

graham, you, and other christians, are frustrated by atheism being such a small target. i'm sorry, but that's the way it is. atheism is saying very, very little: "don't believe god stuff unless and until someone supplies a compelling reason to do so". atheists know there is no god, the way they know there is no tooth fairy. they do not and will not consider either belief unless you give reason to do so.

that's it, all your cheap agnosticism-atheism sophistry notwithstanding. all atheists can be convinced in the belief of god. there is no atheist who would remain an atheist if a bearded guy in the sky started smiting people. but it is an absurd use of language to suggest that these people are therefore not really atheists.

graham, in your frustration, you keep fibbing. you keep making stuff up in order to have a bigger target. it's idiotic. and, it makes your whining about others' straw men really, really funny.

BB

<<< but no, severin, graham is not saying that all atheists or marxists. what he is saying is that all marxists are atheists >>>

I KNOW THAT. Duh.

Just very tired of attempts to link atheism with some kind of ideology in order to make it (as you say) a bigger target.

Dawkins got it right when he said that trying to organise atheists is like trying to herd cats. Atheists come from every part of human culture from Anglos to Inuits, from Asian to African. Poor Graham trying desperately to find a label with which to tar and feather atheists.

I have no doubt that there are Marxists who believe in some kind of supreme being - but wisely would've kept their mouths shut.

The only generalisation possible about atheists is that they do not believe in god or gods. After that, we differ, often greatly.

PS

I agree with AJ that Graham was never seriously atheist.

Bushbasher and Severin, just so you can stop operating in a content free zone I suggest you go and Google "Marxism Atheism". This link from Cambridge University might help you to understand the central role of Atheism in Marxism, and modern Marxism in particular.

http://www.investigatingatheism.info/marxism.html

Severin will especially love it because it uses the term "militant atheism". For example: "However, in 1955/6 militant atheism in the USSR was once more actively promoted, with the establishment of a Chair for Scientific Atheism in Moscow in 1963.[3] This trend was also reflected in policies in the Eastern Bloc and China."

This conversation isn't going to go anywhere unless you get a better grasp on the strands of the belief system that you claim to follow. It is an essential part of any Marxist revolution that people be freed from religion.