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The Forum > Article Comments > Listen to the heroes of Israel > Comments

Listen to the heroes of Israel : Comments

By John Pilger, published 26/2/2010

Violence has failed to achieve Israel’s ends and has produced worldwide revulsion.

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The reference - 3rd last para - to " Mossad’s recent political murder in Dubai" naturally has implicatons for the 3 Australians whose passports (or illegal copies) where left near the scene of the crime.

These Australians are almost certainly innocent and were not even in Dubai. Hopefully they will come home now to Australia - their true home.

But it appears that Israel, including its organ Mossad, includes innocent people of any nationality in Israel's endless battles with its neighbours.

Religious clashes appear to be at the root of most violence - as typified by Jerusalem - excessively important to 3 religions.
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 26 February 2010 3:07:31 PM
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Not a single word to condemn the Hamas bombers? Or that the Hamas military leader responsible for many of the atrocities in Israel was given refuge by Dubai?

If anyone were to go into Gaza and demand justice from Hamas their lives would be forfeit.

Yet another one sided stilted diatribe against Israel. When John stops waving the flag for every tin pot collection of thugs, he might get back some of the respect he has lost.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 26 February 2010 3:41:47 PM
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The Israeli Defence Forces wage an ongoing campaign to assassinate Hamas leaders and have mostly employed operations within Gaza and the West Bank to identify and capture or kill them.

Palestinians on the other hand have had to resort to 'suicide bombing' in retaliation and John Pilger's article highlights the sad futility of this ongoing undeclared war which brings grief and loss to innocents on both sides.

As John pointed out the Israeli campaign to win sympathy for their cause has now become counter productive since the onslaught on Gaza in operation Cast Lead where 1400 defenceless civilians, mostly women and children were killed like sitting ducks,while many more were injured.

The Mossad opoeration to assassinate a Hamas leader in Dubai using stolen identities and forged passports has focussed even greater attention on the excesses of Zionism which has no intention of settling conflict in Palestine other than on their own terms.

The response by Prime Minister Rudd and Foreign Minister Stephen Smith was more concerned about the falsification of Australian Passports than the murder, which suggests to me Australia needs to re-examine our continued support for such a ruthless, terrorist regime as the Zionist dominated Israeli occupation of Palestine and encourage the moderate elements in Israel and Palestine to work towards a secular state governing for all faiths as existed in Jerusalem before the establishment of the zionist occupation
Posted by maracas1, Friday, 26 February 2010 5:18:23 PM
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Agree with you a little, Shadow Minister, but do believe if Israel has its way with tactics as with Mossad, it will ruin its own future.

What I am trying to say is that little Israel right now is by far the strongest and most dangerous power in the Middle East, and will truly bring in what Henry Kissinger warned Nixon about many years ago, that such a poorly set up Middle East balance of power could easily set off another WW3.

Then there were no thoughts about a significantly powerful China, which only last week talked about being on the side of Iran.

It is so interesting that there were discussions about such future problems during the Korean War, and it was the very reason that the United Nations was formed to take over from the old League.

There were even plans to follow Kantian philosophy preventing any major nation taking the major role, such as Britain had been with the League of Nations, just as America, even though it was expected to use more power, was not to be openly in command of the UN, as it has so very unfortunately done - backing Israel unfotunately pretty well to the full to go militarily nuclear.

So America still stayed as top dog, not following original UN plans, with European nations especially losing interest, especially the Nordics, whose rep's were doing such wonderful representative and advisory work.

And with George W Bush in Iraq, it looked like Blair of Britain and our Aussie Howard were America's only backers.

Seems we do need to think back a little, which includes not relying too much on a steered media.
Posted by bushbred, Friday, 26 February 2010 5:38:51 PM
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Shadow minister,
Barley Charlie, Were you reading the same article I was? It was a primarily a plea for peace.

You must have had Conniption with the program on TV on the same topic a few weeks back.

Your take on this article is over the top, extreme and incredibly (for you) naive.

I repeat what I said, in my earlier general topic about the forged Aussie passports used by the *murder* team.

The murder was extra-judicial under the law either international or in either country, regardless, of victim's guilt in other crimes.

You also ignore the implication for the three Aussies involved and Australia's interests. Read what I said about the issue.

*If* Mossad and therefore Israel, are implicated in this, they deserve every bit of international condemnation, that comes their way.

Had the victim been extradited and faced court, in say, the Haig. *Then*, his fate would be justified and I too would condemn his actions.

It's about the rule of law and the consequences of ignoring it, on others. No signatory to the UN, should be allowed to get away such disdain for law or process, for the purposes of extra judicial murder.

I can't disagree, on the context and title of the article. It's time both sides stop this pointless war and accepted each other. And Yes, I think Israel is hog tied, by it's extremist minority and the disproportionate power they hold, in their parliament, too. There are no moral virgins in this conflict.

BTW two wrongs still don't make a right.
Posted by examinator, Friday, 26 February 2010 6:55:03 PM
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Examinator, it is interesting to say that in the case of Israel we have let our sorrow and pitiness for what was left of the German Jews after the terrible Nazi death camps get out of hand.

In fact, such a danger was even discussed by the Brits after WW2, especially as regards Palestine.

Many academic historians still believe that what was left of the German Jews should have been watched over by the new UN, even in the new Israel until the Nazi-induced hatred had subsided.

Of course much of the blame since WW2 must go to America for illegally backing Israel to go militarily atomic.

Finally, with Iran certainly being Israel's main atomic target, China could not only see the way to future world peace by protecting Iran, but could be on the way to becoming the world's most powerful, without firing a shot.
Posted by bushbred, Saturday, 27 February 2010 12:39:47 PM
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Bushbred,
I didn't know that. Your post raises a whole new bag of fish and would make a good separate topic.
However two minor points to be made.

Firstly, before others jump on you, it was more than the German Jews it involved European Jews, Gypsies etc. That in it's self raises issues worth exploring.

Secondly the issue goes back well before WW2 or even before WW1 and the Balfour Declaration et al. In the final analysis, it stems from their *religious* belief and it's self serving notion of being gods chosen people. i.e. Jews aren't a race they are a religion. Races tend to mix absorb other races i.e. England and English. Australia and Australia. Religions tend to be doctrinal, dogmatic, inflexible and intolerant.
Posted by examinator, Saturday, 27 February 2010 2:54:02 PM
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Thanks, examinator, yep, my essay was a bit short cut, but the main argument is was it a good policy for Nixon to break laws and back new little Israel to go militarily nuclear?

Certainly Kissinger was against it, and he has apparently been forced to close his mouth ever since.

I had been doing my Mature Age Post Grad during the aftermath and found most academic historians not very happy with the way Israel was allowed to break political laws so easily. Certainly makes it difficult for tutors whose training can be so much about not upsetting regular power balances, etc, which in the case of a militarily atomic little Israel, has virtually allowed a tiny nation to dominate a Middle East which apart from Israel, is totally without nuclear weaponry.

As I suggested in my earlier thread, maybe too much pity was earlier shown for Israel from all of us, allowing her not only to break political laws, but letting her have such a free run with a close to murderous Mossad.
Posted by bushbred, Saturday, 27 February 2010 6:24:23 PM
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John Pilger says in his article: "violence had failed to achieve Israel’s ends and had produced worldwide revulsion."

What about Arab and Muslim violence, not only in Israel/Palestine but in many other countries, directed indiscriminately at friend and foe, Muslim and non-Muslim, Sunni and Shia, you name it?

Has that achieved its ends? Has it not produced worldwide revulsion?

It is a mistake to look at the Israel/Palestine situation without taking into account Islamic theology. Islamic eschatology shows an implacable hatred of the Jews and envisages no future for them other than their total annihilation as a people.

The following quotes are translated portions of sermons from recent years, delivered by Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi, officially appointed Imam of the Palestinian Authority:

"We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the prophet Muhammad said: 'The resurrection of the dead will not arrive until you will fight the Jews and kill them...' We the Palestinians are the vanguard in this undertaking and in this campaign, whether or not we want this.

"Jerusalem, Palestine and Al Aksa [the Temple Mount], the land that Allah blessed and its surrounding areas will remain at the centre of the struggle between Truth and Falsehood, between the Jews and the non-Jews on this sacred land, regardless of how many agreements are signed, regardless of how many treaties and covenants are ratified. For the truth is in the Koran, as verified by the prophet Muhammad, that the decisive battle will be in Jerusalem and its environs: 'The resurrection of the dead will not occur until you make war on the Jews...'

"The prophet said in more than one Hadith that the Day of Resurrection will not come without the victory of the believers [the Muslims] over the descendants of the monkeys and pigs [the Jews] and with their annihilation."
Posted by Glorfindel, Saturday, 27 February 2010 9:44:58 PM
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Currently Israel is the most destabalising influence on the planet.It is Israel who is pushing for the invasion of Iran.Iran is no threat to Israel since Israel has 100 times more nuclear weapons than Iran.

It is all about power through oil and gas.The Links all go back to Wall St ,Federal Reserve and the London oligarchs.

Our financial system has now destroyed real productivity in the West.The West is now in real decline.China is now the manufacturing centre of the planet,but now as a result of advancing technologicies,it is progressing faster than the West can anticpate scientifically.Hence we see the aggressive stance by the USA in trying to cut off the energy supplies to China.
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 28 February 2010 6:43:01 AM
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Glorfindel, I appreciate your concern, because it is apparent you could be Israeli.

As a Mature Age historian going on 90 next year, I in turn worry much about the coming future for my Great Grandkids.

Further, I must say as a philosopher that Israel much earlier would have been better trusting the new United Nations which has pretty well been made useless by nations big and small relying on power rather than sensible understanding.

When we had persons like Hamascheld running the UN, it seemed we were in for a strong future of global togetherness, the position of the reborn Israel at the time viewed with much sympathy and understanding from academic areas.

Finally, I must admit that I have admiration for the way the Jews of the new Israel have strengthened themselve with such determination, but I must say from a philosophical position, that the natural mental strength of the Israelies would be better spent not on military advantage but on more peaceful persuasion which I know from experience that Jews are so good at.

Regards, BB, Buntine, WA.
Posted by bushbred, Sunday, 28 February 2010 12:27:36 PM
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Violence has failed to achieve the Palestinian's ends and has produced worldwide revulsion.

Similarly the actions of AL Qaeda are focusing the attention on Muslims as a threat. As a result the Muslim world is being abandoned. The reason the western world has turned their back on Palestine is that in spite of the handful of supporters, most consider them the unpredictable malevolent monster under the bed that wants to hurt them.
Posted by Democritus, Sunday, 28 February 2010 4:32:27 PM
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Brushbred,you are very mentally astute for a 90 yr old.
Have a look at Architects and Engineers for 911 truth.They were here in Sydney in Nov last year and are a very credible organisation.

The truth about 911 is the pivotal point that will stop this insanity.In my view we are headed for a serious war unless the truth is revealed. http://www.ae911truth.org/
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 28 February 2010 4:40:16 PM
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Bushbred:

No, I'm not Israeli, not a drop of Jewish blood. Fourth generation (Anglo-)Australian, in Brisbane. But I despise anti-Semitism, especially when it masquerades as compassion for the dispossessed and those ‘dispossessed’ are themselves full of racism (believing and teaching their kids that notorious Tsarist forgery, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion).

If there were genuine compassion for the dispossessed Palestinians, one might reasonably expect it from the rest of the Muslim world. But where is it?

The Arabs own all the territory from Mauretania to Iraq and Oman. Where are the offers of resettlement? Where is the economic aid from the owners of the greatest oil riches on the planet? Why do all the Arab countries within cooee of Palestine regard the Palestinians as lowest of the low, untouchable? Why is Egypt building a massive wall between it and the Gaza strip? Who, by their actions, have demonstrated any real concern whatever for the Palestinians? Certainly neither Yasser Arafat, nor Hamas. What has either done for the Palestinians that is constructive?

Arjay:

Conspiracy theories about 9/11 are infantile, laughable. Tariq Ali, in 'The Clash of Fundamentalisms', chapter 'Letter to a young Muslim', writes:

"I've met many of our people in different parts of the world since 11 September. One question is always repeated: 'Do you think we Muslims are clever enough to have done this?' I always answer 'Yes'. Then I ask who they think is responsible, and the answer is invariably 'Israel'. Why? 'To discredit us and make the Americans attack our countries.' I gently expose their wishful illusions, but the conversation saddens me. Why are so many Muslims sunk in this torpor? Why do they wallow in so much self-pity? Why is their sky always overcast? Why is it always someone else who is to blame? Sometimes when we talk I get the impression that there is not a single Muslim country of which they can feel really proud. ... We are in desperate need of an Islamic Reformation that sweeps away the crazed conservatism and backwardness of the fundamentalists ..."
Posted by Glorfindel, Sunday, 28 February 2010 10:43:26 PM
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If I was at all motivated by John P. to do so I would want to Listen
to both Hero's Palestine and Israeli , but I fear I would find out that Both are Malignant Fanatics so fearing contagion I wont bother listening to You or Them .
Posted by ShazBaz001, Monday, 1 March 2010 10:25:26 AM
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From Bushbred:

I sincerely Apologise, Glorfindel, however, it is interesting that you have not mentioned the UN, or its original plans when whom we might call certain Nordic countries were involved.

I might mention again, Glorfindel, that there is still a lot of admiration for the determination of the new Israelies, but many academics do fear that Israel right now with so much deadly power at hand, might easily begin a Third World War, especially with China now apparently backing Iran.

It must be remembered also that the Russians are helping Iran with atomic construction, etc.

Regards, BB. WA.
Posted by bushbred, Monday, 1 March 2010 11:49:18 AM
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Bushbred,
The USA and France also used to help Iran with the provision and development of their nuclear industry, just as Israel was a partner with Iran in developing certain long-range missile systems.

Circumstances change.
Posted by rache, Monday, 1 March 2010 12:28:39 PM
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OK Glorfinel.Put your money where your mouth is.If you can disprove the salient scientific facts on http://www.ae911truth.org/ ,then I will pay you $20,000.00.John Bursill an engineer that represents the Aussie arm of this group has offered $100,000.00 as a bet to disprove the science.

Go to it.NIST is the USA body to contact.National Institute for standards and Technology.
Posted by Arjay, Monday, 1 March 2010 6:13:06 PM
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Look chaps

I have reservations about Israel's aggression in this world but there is no doubting the effectiveness of Israel's propaganda.

Having known a thing or two about an American agent of (the) Mossad look what they are capable of on the occasion of a soccer game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ian_NCV4aCM&feature=player_embedded

I'm a believer.

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Monday, 1 March 2010 8:56:33 PM
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Bushbred:

I also fear war in the Middle East. David Pryce-Jones’ book “The Closed Circle: an interpretation of the Arabs” is a good non-theological read about Arab culture. I have studied Middle Eastern history and Islamic theology in fair depth. I see no peaceful solution to Israel/Palestine and the broader Jew/Muslim problem while Islamic theology envisages total destruction of the Jews as a people and of Christianity as a religion.

Israel’s survival is vital to the West as well as to Israelis. It is OUR vanguard against obscurantist, violently intolerant, Malthusian, misogynist, life-destroying Islam.

Arjay:

On 9/11, see comprehensive Wikipedia article at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories

and more generally
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theories .

US Administrations have done terrible things in past foreign policy, in amoral pursuit of perceived short-term interest. Many Americans distrust or hate ANY government - for being "tyrannical" (Timothy McVeigh), or having murdered JFK and Marilyn Monroe, or conniving in abduction of Elvis by aliens. "Survivalists" (nutcases) abound. “The Manchurian Candidate" was a great movie.

Under various theories, the world is being run by the Jews, Freemasons, Illuminati, Swiss bankers, covert communists (behind the mass-medication fluoridation push - ask Dr Strangelove), the British Royals (they obviously murdered Princess Di), Templars, Rosicrucians, Jesuits, reptilian and other extraterrestrials (ask the Raelians) and [insert however many more you can think of].

These conspiracy theories end up bumping into themselves. Ask Malcolm Fraser. In the 1983 election campaign he said that if Labor got into power, people would have to put their money under their beds. Hawke retorted: "But that's where the Reds are!"

The latest conspiracy theory is the leftist-communist-green Global Warming Conspiracy. The “science” is all fabricated: the earth is actually cooling, or soon will be; glaciers are just taking a summer holiday melt before freezing back to normal; Australia is actually cooling and getting wetter; the permafrost in Siberia, Canada and Alaska is just flexing its muscles to give the land and collapsing installations built on it an interesting soggying before closing the deep freeze lid again. Oh, and Iran will soon be deploying Flying Pigs against Israel.
Posted by Glorfindel, Monday, 1 March 2010 11:56:11 PM
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Gorfindel.Instead of escaping to wiki,address the realities.Building 7 of the WTC which very few know about at 186 m tall came down in 6.5 sec.It was a large building.No plane impacted it and it came down in a classic controlled demolition style in it's own footprint.

It had an average acceleration of 8.8 m/sec or 90% of freefall.Prof David Chandler has measured it having achieved absolute freefall for 2.5 sec of it's demise.Now this is impossible because it means that the lower structures provided absolutely no resistance to gravity.
This was like freefall in a vacuum.A man freefalling with a parachute closed reaches a terminal velocity of 200kph.WTC7 reached a maximum speed of 205 kph.

Active and reacted nano thermite was found in the dust and rubble of all the WTC buildings.Why did it take 6 yrs to put out a sham report on Building 7?

You can see on youtube a British reporter announcing the collapse of Building 7, 20 min before the actual collapse.Firemen at the scene on video saying she going to blow,run.How did they know?

The lease holder Larry Silverstein saying that they had to "Pull the building" since there was so much death and destruction.Pull is a demolition term meaning to remove the foundations by sequential explosions.The evidence is overwhelming and this is just a small snippet.It was Larry's fopar since at the time he did not realise that it takes weeks to wire a building for such a perfectly controlled collapse.Larry later said that he meant pull the firemen out but they were well gone.

As I said before you can make big dollars just by placing a bet.John has offered $100,000.00 for those who can disprove the science.Now that should be easy money for you since you are so sure of your facts.
Posted by Arjay, Tuesday, 2 March 2010 5:52:07 PM
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Gorfindel, as one going on 90 next year with a lot of history and politics learnt in my retirement, am wondering where you developed the theory that the world would be safer with Israeli action as the guide for America, Britain and Australia to clean Islamism right off the globe.

Well with China talking about backing Iran, and Russian nuclear engineers also helping Iran, can't envisage little Israel getting much anywhere unless backed totally by
America.

Am only hoping what the above picture might do is have Obama again promise what he was mostly elected for, to engineer total global nuclear disarmament.
Posted by bushbred, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 2:44:41 PM
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Where for art thou Gorfindel? Place your bets and realise this easy money.The maths and science is awaiting your profound perceptions.

Will you listen to the heros of Israel,or the lasivious pereptraitors of war and power? Traitor being the operative word.They have betrayed all of our humanity.
Posted by Arjay, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 7:57:37 PM
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Bushbred:

I'd like us to be able to keep our powder dry. But Islamism may not let us do that, if we want to survive. Fundamentalist Islam is a mental disease which may need to be dealt with in the way they shoot mad dogs. Political correctness and appeasement of demented mullahs and terrorists is lunacy. If the Israelis believe the Iranians both want to and can snuff out their existence, then I'd support them in dealing with that existential threat.

That part of the world already dominated by Islam is the world's basket case, along with animist areas like parts of Africa and Haiti. As President Musharraf of Pakistan told a conference of science ministers from Islamic countries in 2002:
"Today we [Muslims] are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race."

The intended spread of Islamism is a war on Civilization.

Bernard Lewis, foremost historian of the Middle East, has written:
"It may be that Western culture will indeed go: The lack of conviction of many of those who should be its defenders and the passionate intensity of its accusers may well join to complete its destruction. But if it does go, THE MEN AND WOMEN OF ALL THE CONTINENTS WILL THEREBY BE IMPOVERISHED AND ENDANGERED."

Arjay:

Sorry, I can't be bothered. "If you persist in keeping an open mind, somebody will throw garbage into it."
Posted by Glorfindel, Friday, 5 March 2010 1:08:48 PM
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Gorfindel"Sorry I can't be bothered." Then the clanger,"If you persisent in having an open mind ,someone will throw garbage into it."

What a rip snorter of ignorance.If you persisent in having a closed mind then all your options will be closed.

Start with the facts Gorfindel.WTC 7 186m tall,a concrete steel reinforced building came down in 6.5 sec in it's own footprint.Do the maths.Divide 6.5 into 186m and the average speed is 28.6 m/sec.Now in km/hr we multiply by 3600 the number of sec in an hour and divide by 1000 to get km/h.So WTC 7 had an average speed of 103 km/h. It had an average acceleration of 8.8m/sec.It reached a maximum speed of 205 km/h,faster than most freefall situations.

Gorfindel,who you care to comment?
Posted by Arjay, Saturday, 6 March 2010 6:06:57 PM
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