Very funny article: total confusion in the feminist camp over whether to regard sex as sexist, whether female sexual self-determination (good) is commodification and objectification (bad).

"... as we’re forced to wear those ears at hen’s nights"

Poor widdle 'empowered' girl. Diddums get forced then. By the nasty 'oppressive' men. Whoops, no man to blame.

Dr Ellis displays a disturbing inability to understand other people's arguments. Ariel Levy isn't one of those lightweight feminsts who just follows other people around applauding everything they do as evidence of free choice. Instead, she prefers to ask why they make the choices they do. In particular, she investigated dramatic changes in the way that many women choose to conduct their sex lives. She found that, rather than being liberating, post-feminist ideas about sex have replaced one stifling conformity with another.

Dr Ellis (unwittingly) demonstrates how this might work. She wasn't free to act or dress how she wanted and instead, succummed to peer pressure. It was no coincidence that all of the women at this strip show chose to act and dress in such similar ways.

Free choice means freedom to make a variety of choices.

I am anything but an uptight prude, but personally I think the playboy branding is awful. My wife finds it an anathema. To see it everywhere these days and having women and even young girls wearing it like it was cool fashion label is tremendously disappointing.

I do see your point about your mum getting an excuse to push beyond her normal comfort zone, however, I don't see how that connects back to playboy in any meaningful way. You can have the same feeling of sexual liberation and sexiness without all the terrible connotation of exists-for-pleasure, air-headed playboy bunny bimbos.

If you want a sexy theme, I don't understand why you wouldn't just pick a generic sexy or skimpy theme for a hen's night? Why specifically choose something as commercial and tacky as playboy?

I feel rather sorry for many women, particularly younger women. About the only thing they have left is their bodies.

Despite feminism, women rarely invent, develop or build anything. That is being done by men.

Despite feminism, the majority of women do not want to work (and I recently read a survey where 80% of women said they did not want to work beyond 50 years of age).

Feminism has also told women that marriage is bad and men are bad (or in feminist terms: - “Men are abusive”), and now nearly 25% of women don’t even have babies.

So what do women have left?

Nothing except their bodies, that so many want to flaunt.

Women's liberation was essentially to free women from being forced to comply with others expectations. What they do with it is up to them.

Trying to impose your values is no better than imposing male expectations.

Be careful what you wish for.

My Opinion, Is that feminism is sinking deeper and deeper into the Sea of Hypocrisy. On the boat called The Mad-Cow. With the crew suffering foot in Mouth, with an over abundance of self-worth! (There’s a move there!) Feminism is like homosexuality,
a mental disorder. Goes against the Laws of Nature! End of Story.

The only thing that feminism has achieved is dashing the hopes of good heterosexual
Women from having family and children, dividing the sexes and causing great unrest in the community by encouraging the brake down of the family unit and alienating individuals with in their own society! Sad! Sad! Sad! Like Family Law!

Sorry to be pedantic, Katie, but that should be "his fiancee" (with the extra 'e' to make it feminine. No other comment.

The problem lies in when women sought sexual self determination they thought men were coming along for the ride as well (if you'll excuse the pun).

Reading this article I had a strange and unreal vision of turning up to a hen's night with my mother both of us dressed in a playboy bunny suit. Wouldn't have happened, in our case anyway, and neither of us would have felt comfortable in that environment.

But we are all different.

It is a strange paradox that on one hand feminism fought at some level for women to have equal rights on the sexual playing field while at the same time considered overt female sexuality as 'playing into the hands of men'.

As a teen in the seventies there was a bunch of mixed messages for women which still hold true today. That is, we are free to make our own decisions in regards to sexuality but if you are too free you will be seen as easy and no man will want you.

As a woman, I would rather not end up with a man who has slept with a bevy of women - not only is he a medical risk but there is a psychological dispositon to assume that a 'loose man' will not be fully committed or trustworthy. Men apparently think the same about women.

So where does that leave us? It leaves us with what we have always had, simply, the individual freedom to make up our own minds and to act accordingly, possibly making some mistakes along the way, but in the end it is those mistakes that help maketh the woman/man.

My view as a woman in her 40's is "female sexual self determination" has existed for centuries, within many women, of all nationalities and ages. Well before Greer commenced her encouragement and her espousing feminism and her movement.

If one observes every mode of dressing [and up] of each era; one will realise that dressing up in bunny costumes, boob tubes, fishnet stockings or whatever is no more provocative than the cleavage shown back in other generations. Bathing suits and swimwear in all generations worn, ball gowns outlining figures of all shapes and sizes, the 60's with those short short dresses I've seen in some of my mothers' friends old photos, the ultra tight denim shorts and bikini tops most of my older sisters wore in their early 20's, not to mention the beautiful sexy seductive dresses designed and manufactured back then that they wore in the early 70's to country balls [sister left me mint slices upon her return if I took out the knots in her jewellery for the balls].

Dressing is only one small way in which to express to oneself or others "female sexual self determination". Other generations, well before the term "feminism" was bandied around in the media, used various methods of "female sexual self determination": back during WWI, WWII and other wars in which women have participated overseas and here in Australia at home.

The fantastic "mini skirt" and "mini dresses" are what I was trying to express; existed well before the term "feminism" was bandied around. All women from all walks of life expressed their "female sexual self determination" wearing these fashionable eye catching beautiful skirts and dresses. The female bodies shown to advantage: chubby fat slim, athletic or hairy legs: women of all shapes and sizes wearing them. To me, this point is another 'genuine'plus for female sexual self determination and wonderfully healthy for female individuals. To wear and express themselves in private and in public.

Scenario: I am wearing my faithful tan sandals with a 3/4 heel or high brown leather boots], a pair of denim shorts [short shorts], tight top, with or without tanned legs, peroxide blonde hair pinned up, walking into a busy country town shopping centre non-coastal. Q: How would you connect or judge my appearance to my disposition? A prostitute/stripper/feminist/housewife/working mother/non-working mother? Next day, I am dressed in my pencil thin tight navy skirt [long with a split right up the back] to show long slim toned legs], a jacket with a camisole that gapes showing a great amount of cleavage, sheer navy stockings and high heels. Q: As per above.

A great 50% of self proclaimed feminists or people terming certain female work colleagues of mine as feminists dress more provocatively, some lesbians included, than married old fashioned in dress sense women I know, whom do not work or do not express their freedom or stand up for their rights/individuality in being female.
I am hoping my points are interpreted correctly as I wish them to be.

To the feminists and movement [if one exists]: the ways in which women and girls dress is irrelevant to feminism.

What is curious is the absence of bucks nights now.

Every fri and Sat night down at kings Cross there are many hens nights, with women painting the city red.

Hens nights are VICTORY CELEBRATIONS... You have the man now, who will support you even after you divorce him. You still get to keep everything... his assest the home that his long hours mostly paid for, his kids and his child support. And since you control his kids, you get to keep him under your control. Yes! I'd celebrate!

You've worked damn hard to get a rationally reluctant 'commitment phobic' man to commit, and now you can party and celebrate the end of your need to work, and look forward to a nice 'work-life balance'. Yes! I'd celebrate!

So where are the bucks nights? Men don't celebrate anymore. WHen a bloke tells his friends ther are more likely to say "oh shiit, are you sure mate?" Than to go out and celebrate with him.

Men don't want to become fathers anymore... they're afraid. And the tagedy is that there is a whole generation of young-ish, attractive, professional women who can't get a man and who will die childless.

Thanks Feminism! Thanks for making sure that there are too few men willing to marry

Hey, all you guys need to lighten up a little!
I found this article to be quite light-weight in content, and perhaps a little tongue-in-cheek?

I think that some women embracing the Playboy dress-ups does not really say anything about feminism! It simply means that some women think the playboy bunny look is cute, and they want to dress up to look cute too.

It is a well known fact that most women dress to please or show off to other women, more so than for men.

The Hen's night is simply a celebration of a woman's last night as a single woman -out on the town.
Just the same as men at a Buck's night.

Partimeparent < "What is curious is the absence of bucks nights now."

No dear, there are still plenty of Buck's nights happening out there...it is just that no one is telling YOU about them!

Can you blame them with your' bitter attitude towards women and marriage?

For nigh on forty years Gloria Steinem has managed to live off her three weeks experience as a Playboy bunny. Her discovery of Playboy bunnies (Oh, the horror!) has put bread on the tables of scores of feminist authors and academics (although Gloria was not so keen on feminist academics).

Hefner has been the subject of thousands of furious, indignant rants, including some on OLO no doubt.

Peter Hume got it in one and yes, we should all be having an grin at how things can turn a full circle in life, no harm in that. What do young women care about the hatreds and baggage of geriatric feminists in shoulder pads anyhow?

We are unique,
Probably the epitome of the fully sexually liberated feminist would be Greer.

She has made a lot of money from her career in feminism, and she now has THREE houses in THREE different countries.

Unfortunately she lives alone in her THREE houses, having dispensed with all her children in abortion clinics when she was younger, and I don’t think any self-respecting male would want to live with her.

Greer should be kept in mind should someone be thinking of pursing a career in feminism. It could be rather lonely being a fully sexually liberated feminist.

Cornflower

"What do young women care about the hatreds and baggage of geriatric feminists in shoulder pads anyhow?" I agree. Young women have enough hang-ups and hatred of their own. Try criticising them about their sex life and see what I mean.

Vanna

I think that we are agreed that it was probably for the best that Germaine didn't reproduce.

Just goes to show that the basic tenets of feminism are a nonsense.

Many women want to be sexually objectified.

The feminists made men stop doing it, now women have to pick up the slack and objectify themselves. Pathetic really.

But by god it's funny.

<kylev> some girl just came onto our floor
<kylev> and was yelling "sexual favors for anyone who does my sociology paper"
<kylev> i just asked her what the paper was about
<kylev> and she said the accomplishments and growth of feminism
<`Neo> bahahahaha

Bucks nights and Hens nights are creepy.

I could see their relevance when people generally were married by 22, and people didn't sleep around so much before marriage and porn wasn't everywhere. But these days, come'on.

A 30-odd yo guy or girl going out on the town (wow, like (s)he has every weekend for the last 20 years), going to a strip show (As if (s)he hasn't slept with 30+ women, seen all sorts of porn and strip shows before)? I mean, it's like a 35 yo man or woman in a teen movie like American Pie.

These nights, if done in the traditional way, are as cringe worthy as anything Ricky Gervais can come up with.

Passe!

Although, I remember it was an easy way to score when I was younger. Just hang around a large bunch of drunk chicks trying to out-do each other in outrageous behaviour, and all just a little bit sad they're not the ones getting married. Easier pick up than weddings.

Houellebecq, "Just hang around a large bunch of drunk chicks trying to out-do each other in outrageous behaviour, and all just a little bit sad they're not the ones getting married.'

First ask the cabbies who are unlucky enough to transport such revellers home. For women there is a fine line between tipsy and urgent projectile vomit. This is not assisted by female adventurousness in sampling a mix of exotic drinks when celebrating. The pretentious office suits add cigars, urk.

Bucket and mop and none of the other.

Cornflower, <" For women there is a fine line between tipsy and urgent projectile vomit. This is not assisted by female adventurousness in sampling a mix of exotic drinks when celebrating. The pretentious office suits add cigars, urk."

I am sure we could say the same about men at Buck's parties couldn't we Cornflower?

Or are men too cool to chuck?

Suzeonline: protector of the right of women to projectile vomit...

What next hon: will you be arguing for the inalienable right of women to drop their tweeds and water the roses after they've finished with their vomiting? What fun this equality stuff is, eh?

suzeonline

Collateral damage - you were too quick on the trigger. If you go back to the Houellebecq's reply you will see that I was making a light-hearted comment on the sometimes wrongly timed advances of young men. He could have had a wry smile or maybe even a laugh at the memory.

I might have made a joke about how women can miss-time their romantic advances too if a similar statement had been made by a woman.

As a rose grower myself, I was about to have a little fun with Antiseptic's image of women astride rose bushes, but that scarce opportunity will have to pass after having to make this explanation.

Sorry Cornflower, I must have missed the supposed humour from you!
Normally, you are just so serious about your pet anti-female topics that I don't imagine that you possess a sense of humour.

However, I will admit I had a little giggle about 'septics image of women squatting to pee over rose-bushes. Quite painful I would imagine...!

Is that what men do after they are drunk and vomiting 'septic?
Or are you having a flashback about some drunken time in your own past 'hon'?

Of course!

Foolish me, anything and everything is a trigger for you.

Your game (for life!) not mine, C U.

I have been back to the original article four times now, and still have no idea what the author is complaining about. For a sex that claims to be 'communication skill' enhanced, she has all the clarity of a mud pool. Would anyone care to parse what she is saying? Preferably in English. References to Simone de Bouvoir and her contention that women should not be given choices because they will always choose the most idle one, will be awarded extra points.

Amfortas,
To explain the article (perhaps).

The article on OLO refers to this article in the UK Gaurdian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1993934,00.html

In that article, the author Hannah Pool complains about “hens nights” and how much she hates them. This is mainly because the women fight and bicker so much.

This is contrary to feminist belief that men are abusive.

It is also a part of feminist belief that men make women wear clothes that are sexually suggestive, but at “hens nights”, many of the women wear clothes such as “a pair of devil horns, a tail and a garter”.

It now sems that women bicker and wear sexually suggestive clothes, OF THEIR OWN ACCORD.

So the author is in a bit of a dither, as everything seems to be the opposite to various feminst beliefs (that many have built a career on, particularly in the academic sphere), and the author wants to call it all “post feminism”

I think I got that right (or maybe not).

Thanks for that Vanna.

"It now sems that women bicker and wear sexually suggestive clothes, OF THEIR OWN ACCORD"

Good Lord !! This, despite them achieving maturity at such an early age when their chests reach 32B.

Pelican, i note you have become a lot more reasonable of late, but are still "in denial". Those "70's mixed messages" are not just, still around, they have been amplified by femanism out of all proportion & vast amounts of new ones have been added, as well, to oppress women, men, children, everybody.

Femanism was always about creating disharmony, mistrust, self abuse, poverty, etc. Everything that has gone wrong in modern western society, over the last 40 years, can be linked, directly, to feman-nazism.

suzeonline, sorry dear, as the former owner of a wheel chair accessible taxi, or maxi taxi, who also chose to work the night shift, i can assure you that "hens nights" are a much bigger, more common, deal than "bucks nights". The women always drank more and behaved worse, in a pathetic game of "outdoing men" (including the burping, farting, spewing, arse & knob grabbing, etc), which they were, "trained by" femanism to do. I take it you have never seen any of those stickers saying, "women can do anything" & everything a man can do, etc, only better. I & all the other AFL are not even slightly bitter, just feeling sorry for you, your sistahood, even more so for any poor girl, born during the last 40 years or so, who have been brain washed, by the shrieking ChazPropaganda, abusing them, feman-nazism is "corporate paedophilia".