Gerald,

Human rights organisations report on HR violations as one would expect.
All countries and cities you referred to are at war with terrorism but none of them use 155 mm shells or military grade missiles on civilian populations except for Israel. I don’t recall Brits or Aussies shelling Lakemba to get a suspect.

In the month of April alone 64 palestinians were killed 11 being children (excluding today’s missile that lost its target and killed a woman).

Once upon a time I was in the military and I remember 155mm shells are the highest calibre fired from a tank (usually to demolish a building, an artillery site or a on ground bunker). Insisting on using these kinds of weapons in heavily populated civilian areas discredit your claims that civilian casualties are accidental.

fellow-Human, you have missed the point. All the evidence shows that the injuries were not from an Israeli 155mm shell but rather from a Palestinian mine. Do you accept this fact? Do you care? Or are you more intersted in blaming Israel for your own nefarious purposes?

Jeremy,

No need to feel hot under the collar. My point is clear and simple: Israel is not the only country with security challenges but they are unique in using military/ combat grade weapons to target suspects in civilian areas. It is not exactly a best practice if you want to avoid civilian casualty or collateral damage. Read today’s article on smh.com.au
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/death-toll-mounts-as-israeli-missiles-miss-targets-again/2006/06/22/1150845316239.html

Whether the incident you are talking about is true or not, the common practice in everyday news is the use of helicopter launched missiles and artillery to target individual suspects.

We can share opinions with honesty or live in denial and believe its all a conspiracy.

Professor Steinberg argues that human rights groups have the power to influence public opinion, which is partially true, but I hardly beleive their 'huge budgets' can influence public policy. First world govts. think nothing of ignoring HRW and Amnesty international, unlike halliburton on news corp. whose concerns are first and foremost.

Secondly, I beleive the special attention given to Israel stems from the fact that the conflict in that country has a ripple effect on international politics like no other conflict in the world, you're unlikely to Bin Laden constantly referring to the Tamil Tigers.

Fair enough Fellow-Human. But Hamas does not recognise Israel's right to exist, and Arafat refused a very good negotiated settlement. And why is Israel targeting militants? Have a look at this article, over 100 rockets fired into israel between 9 and 14 June. Would you put up with that if they were being fired into your town by people who refuse to accept your right to exist and whose stated aim is to kill you?

http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=29608

Jeremy, Hamas does not recognise Israel's right to exist. Diddums. Has Israel ever recognised Palestine's right to exist? Arafat recognised Israel's right to exist and got sweet nada for his pains. Abbas, ditto. "Over 100 rockets fired into Israel." Whether under Arafat, Abbas, Hamas or Mother Theresa herself, no matter how many unilateral truces the Palestinians declare, the Israel occupation forces just go on and on like the Energizer Bunny with their liquidations of alleged 'militants' and anyone else who happens to be in the vicinity (June 9 - 8 killed/50 odd wounded; June 21 - 2 killed/13 wounded; June 22 - 2 killed/13 wounded), their brutal incursions, their arbitrary arrests, their monstrous wall, their illegal settlements, and their daily harrassment of the Palestinians. Who the hell is putting up with what here?

Boaz watches with interest as Strewth signs up for his next role of 'HAMAS SPOKESPERSON'... on ya Strewthy.. I've seldom seen such a well oiled "Tranzformers-Robots in Disguise" style re-construction of the events in Israel/Palestine as yours.
Your supplementary superannuation fund must be swelling to bursting point now with all the contributions from your 'string pullers' :)

1/ Palestinian Civilian deaths during Israeli counter terrorism attacks.

COMMENT Long ago, Arafat declared "Every Palestinians is a fighter, men women children" so.. diddums that a few "fighters" get wiped out along with the TERRORISTs they allow in their midst. (to use your quaint terminology... just being a mirror)
The Israelis could always use Mohammed's approach and take all the Palestinian males, cut off their heads and enslave the women and children, after all, Mohamed did it to the Jews of Banu Qurayza. (shhhhh F.H. we have gone through this b4 :) this is for Strewth only)

2/ RECOGNITION OF STATEHOOD.
Now Strewthy.. u can fool some of the people some of the time, but not all the people ALL of the time.
You and I both know, Hamas was recently kicking and screaming against the 'we have no money' problem with "No, we will NOT recognize Israel's right to exist"
I'll do it by numbers to help you :)

1/ HAMAS is elected (their platform includes non recognizing Israel's right to exist in 'Arab' lands)
2/ Western countries do not support 'Terrorism' nor the idea that Israel cannot exist. (this is their democratic choice, like it or lump it)
3/ AID is withheld from 'Terrorist' HAMAS
4/ HAMAS runs out of money.
5/ Palestinians who 'elected' a Terrorist government now reap what they democratically sowed.

yes.. a very acceptable outcome as far as I'm concerned

Dear Old Bamboozle, Still alone and palely loitering? To paraphrase a wise man, I have great respect for your religious views, but only in the sense and to the extent that I respect your theory that your wife is beautiful and your children smart.

Interesting comments so far. One question - did anyone notice that the Professor teaches at an Israeli university established by a leader of religious Zionism? I'm sure he can be just as objective as the next religious Zionist on the issue of the Palestinians! Or not! Kind of like asking an oil tycoon his opinion on global warming, or a nuclear lobbyist their ideas on the oil crisis!

One last comment - if human rights groups are to maintain credibility by not campaigning around ending protracted crises such as the Palestine/Israel fiasco, then what precisely is it that they will do? Lobby the Israeli authorities to campaign on the Palestinians behalf? Yeh right! NGOs such as HRW and AI perform a valuable function in the global community, and whilst it may be ineffectual most of the time, their persistant presence acts as a constraint on the actions of the big and mighty. Afterall, if the world weren't watching, all Palestinians would have been slaughtered in their sleep decades ago.

Ashley, you have a point, but this article is the usual propaganda line peddled by the Australia/Israel & Jewish Affairs Council http://www.aijac.org.au . Anyone who criticises Israeli behaviour is immediately written off as an anti-Semite. I don't know why OLO perists in publishing this stuff.

I had to laugh though at Steinberg asserting that NGOs had to stop "political campaigns on behalf of Palestinians" as though he stands on some high moral ground free of "political agendas". He has persistantly argued against a Palestinian state http://www.aijac.org.au/review/1997/224/palstate.html . As ye sow so shall ye reap.

Please let's use some logic here. A lot of evidence exists that Israel was not in fact responsible for the Gaza beach tragedy. That is the point. If this is true it would suggest that these NGO's are lacking in credibility. The way they have jumped in and blamed Israel without consideration of the other point of view suggests bias.

A lot of news writers are quick to blame Israel without considering the full facts. The movement against the Taliban and Saddam certainly was done or sanctioned by countries such as UK USA Japan Australia and Spain, all countries with free press and democratic votes, and they used shells much larger than 155 mm.

Yes I too feel sorry for the Palestinians but don´t forget the Jews Christians and Israeli Arabs who have been constantly fired on by Palestinian rockets or been blown up by suicide bombers. And what is this thing about destroying Israel?

Why is Israel being treated like a pariah state when it operates a British style parliamentary and justice system? Would any of you truly like to live under Sharia law? A lot of Palestinians are not so keen on Hamas either, for that reason. Support for the underdog is to be lauded but is not always correct.

logic displays the usual tactics of the Zionist flak catcher: NGOs again and again expose Israel's lack of credibility and he deflects with "...these NGOs are lacking in credibility" and irrelevant waffle about sharia law. Uzi Benjamin summed it up well in 'Until proved otherwise', Haaretz, 18/6/06: "Describing the discrepancy between the versions of the state authorities and the victims of its operations as one that leaves the Israeli public wondering [but not Israel's local cheer squad] - is an understatement. Many Israelis actually believe the Palestinians, or those who speak for them, and not because they are consumed with self-hatred. They have regrettable precedents: abuse of Palestinians that is initially denied until clear-cut evidence discredits the denials (testimony from 'soldiers breaking the code of silence'); deaths of foreign human rights activists, which the state authorities ignore until the international pressure compels them to investigate the circumstances in depth (the case of Tom Hurndall); bogus descriptions of how innocent people were killed during assassinations from the air (the Salah Shehada hit); false accusations against international bodies (the claims that UNRWA had helped transport a Qassam rocket while photos proved it was a stretcher); incorrect data regarding the status of built-up areas that had been designated targets for shelling (populated homes in Rafah, May 2004); internal IDF and police inquiries whose conclusions were refuted or required double-checking..." etc, etc, Google it if you want the whole enchilada.

I am sorry Strewth but I am an not displaying Zionist tactics but thinking for myself. I have tried to avoid emotive language. If you have solid evidence that the Gaza attack was by Israel, fine, produce it and I will listen. You, unlike me seem to have already made up your mind. You are also displaying an extreme predjudice against Israel - I wonder why.

My point, if you can control your angry bias sfficiently to read my letter properly is that there is a doubt on the matter and there does appear to be evidence that the Palestinians have in fact doctored evidence. This should lead logically to some concern about the accuracy of the reports.

The question of Sharia law I admit was a diversion from the main theme but it cannot be dismissed from discussions on the Middle East and I am un ashamedly a passionate supporter of liberal democracy, a form of political organisation that is being embraced not only in the Christian West but in Hindu India and Shinto / Buhdist Japan and now in Muslim Indonesia. Where Sharia law has been practiced in countries such as Afghanistan and Iran the results are hardly promising. And I have reasons to suspect this will be introduced gradually by Hamas.

This is what must frighten Israel.

If logic is not a Zionist apologist as he maintains, then, despite his living on this planet for xxx years and his ability to read, write, research and (presumably) think for himself, how does one explain his total lack of understanding of the planet's worst colonial running sore and his predilection for Zionist cliches?

Strewth

While I agree with you on the aggressive and unsupportable roles and provocative actions of the Israeli's in suppressing and antagonising the Palestinians I think the probable cause of the deaths on Gaza beach wasn't Israeli military ordinance.

I have a less definite stance on the NGO's. After reading many of the reports available on the websites of Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, I have found while they definitely slant against Western and Israeli actions often their reports do contain very balanced information. Amnesty especially does condemn the unacceptable actions of Governments and movements of all persuasions.

I receive regular information from Amnesty on human rights in China especially in regard to Capital Punishment. I have found them fair and balanced.

Logic,
Keep it up, you're doing a great job.
Strewth is slippery character-don't show him any mercy.
LOL - And watch his left hook.

Very sad indeed is the primitivity of such idiots refering palestinians as terrorists yet the biggest and most cruel persons are those with such minds and those of you giving credit to the blood thirsty jews ( there are some jews who are better than others ofcourse) such as the so called professor here who seems to justify the cruelty, barbaric acts of terrorism the Jews are causing on the poor palestinian peasants living in their own motherland. Remember you keep shedding crocodile tears, we know how you influenced even the Boers regime of south Africa who kill millions of south Africans to this day. The millions of people whom you have killed their loved ones. Let me say this, how will you feel if all your family members are killed at one go in Bondi or other beaches as they did to the palestinians? THINK AGAIN YOU IDIOT
Galty

Do you understand what sharia or law stands for? Do not confuse people. They're one and the same. Sharia is Law and law is sheria. So what do we call the Zionist's law then?. Lets ask Hitler.
Again, who are semites. GO BACK to History, history, history, history. The answer is; Sons of Abraham; They are Ishmael and Isaac. Ismael's decendants are Arabs and Isaac's decendants are Jews. Then who deserves to be called a semite. Learn history my friend and stop cheating the world. Again donot forget those that God turned into Apes when they defied the laws of sabaath remember! again history tells us better than your fabrications. You will remain apes my dear friends. Again, I love the de vinci stuff Mr professor and his boot leakers!. That is all from me.
Galty

Galty

Having now read the expose of the CFMEU and its disgraceful fraudulent tactics of 'forcing and orchestrating' a stoppage/wage deduction over the collection of funds for a dead worker during work time, and then seeing how they attempted to use this for gutter level political gain and BLAME the Employers for 'deducting wages' that they themselves (the Union) demanded occurr......

It becomes clear that no matter what happens in Gaza or elsewhere, it will be CONSTRUEDandSPUN as some Anti Israel morsel by the equally primitive PLO/HAMAS. Same 'gutter' political mindset of the CFMEU.

"Use (or create) any incident and spin it in your political favor"

How do I know this ?

HISTORY

A bit over a year or 2 back, there was a cease fire observed by all parties in the Israel/Palestine area. It was quiet for over 3 months....nothing.

THEN.....

Islamic Jihad blew up an Israeli bus.

THEN Israel attacked

THEN the cycle began again

THEN Islamic Jihad/Hamas etc all blamed Israel and said "We are just retaliating against Israeli Attacks"

C'mon Strewth... we might look dumb but thats just the way our parents dressed us.. we really can think.

Onya Logic and Horus.

Jeremy,

Please read and listen carefully: Hamas firing rockets at Israeli civilians is a criminal act. I am just saying that two wrongs don't make a right. Deliberate harm of any civilian is unhuman. Israel 'right to exist' is easy to recognise when you agree on a border definition with your neighbour (same as Egypt & Israel did).
I don't think Israel would have any recognition problems if they can agree among themselves where the Israeli borders is or should be with its neighbours (including the Palestinian state). I think the problem comes if your understanding of Israel's right to exist means a total replacement of Palestine and Palestinian identity.

All the best,

keith, your post seems a trifle confused: on the one hand you say you don't think the Israelis were responsible for the massacre on the Gaza beach, yet you acknowledge that HRW, whose investigator on the scene, Marc Garlasco, claimed an Israeli 155-mill shell was responsible, is "balanced."
Horus, as slippery as you on a previous post trying to backdown from your statement: " I agree that Gaza and the West Bank should be returned...I also think that a Palestinian State with East Jerusalem as its capital would be reasonable"(31/5/06)? Or as slippery as Bamboozled who can slide from the CFMEU to HAMAS to Abraham to Armageddon and back again all in the same post?
As for Steinberg's original piece attacking NGOs such as AI and HRW, I'm reminded of the words on the banner on the stern of the Japanese whaler: "Greenpeace Misleads You!"

Strewth

I only said in reference to HRW and AI '...often their reports do contain very balanced information.' I did not specifically refer to Mr Garlasco's report. I think his has been discredited.

Yep, East Jerusleum as the Palestinian Capital. Tear down those land grabbing Israeli settlements. Re-instate the pre '67 borders.

Let's turn Strewth's rhetoric around.

"If Strewth is not a Muslim apologist as he maintains, then, despite his living on this planet for xxx years and his ability to read, write, research and (presumably) think for himself, how does one explain his total lack of understanding of the planet's worst colonial running sore and his predilection for Muslim cliches?"

"Rhetoric", my dear Strewth, is simply airy declarations that lack any substance.

Rhetoric is not an argument.

redneck, educate me!

From the poor quality of your submissions, Mr Strewth, I gather that you may have left it a bit too late for me to do any good.

ISRAELI SOLDIER KIDNAPPED

*Banu Qurayza Jewish tribe in Arabia (Victims of Islamic genocide)
*Mecca (invaded, a hit list of people executed by Mohamed)
*Dumar,City in Northern Arabia (Brother of Christian Prince murdered in cold blood, Prince Ukaydir offered 'Islam or death')
*2006 Islamic terrorists from Gaza break treaty, kidnap Israeli soldier.

Mecca was invaded because the Treaty of Hudabaya had been broken.

This treaty was a 'peace/non aggression' treaty between Mohamed's terrorist band, and the established citizens of Mecca.

Mohammed claimed it had been broken because some obscure tribe allied with the Meccans had raided some group allied with Mohammed.

ON THIS BASIS (all of the above) i.e. the EXAMPLE of Mohamed, founder of Islamo terrorism ISRAEL can do the following:

1/ Claim all treaties are null and void regarding the status of land and the disposition of the parties.

2/ Invade Gaza

3/ Execute all the males

4/ Enslave all the females and children

OR

1/ Execute a 'list' of the main offenders. (Hamas leaders at top of list)
2/ Allow the rest to remain on the land, but taking a 50% tax from each person. (as was done by Mohamed to the Jews of Khaibar)
3/ Offer Judaism to all citizens. Those who abandon Islam and accept Judaism are safe, the rest are exiled or executed.

Before anyone jumps down my throat, just remember one thing. I've stated nothing more than was done in the name of Islam by Mohammed, its terrorist founder. I suggest instead of attacking me, go and proclaim these facts at the nearest mosque and ask them why they follow such a man.

So, redneck, if it's too late for me, maybe it's not for others: wow them with one of your QUALITY submissions. Having derided mine, it'd br churlish of you not to lead by example. And Bamboozled's latest descent into foaming madness & lunatic incoherence might just be the place to begin. How about a quality submission on one of his two topics? After all, he's on your side.

In the meantime, and on topic, Chris McGreal's 'Who really killed girl's family on Gaza beach', Guardian Weekly, 23/6/06 makes a compelling read.

This is interesting :)

Strewth said:

“Bamboozled's latest descent into foaming madness & lunatic incoherence might just be the place to begin”

OUCH -gee that hurt Strewth :)

Given that pretty much all I said was based on Islamic history, are you therefore condemning Islam ?

From no lesser Authority than Stewthy’s favorite source the Jerusalem Post
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885848200&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

“The Aksa Martyrs Brigades announced on Sunday that its members have succeeded in manufacturing CHEMICAL and BIOLOGICAL weapons. In a leaflet distributed in the Gaza Strip, the group, which belongs to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah Party, said the weapons were the result of a three-year effort.”

(There are many reports of this, not just the JP)

For a possible Israeli Action Plan and its moral/philosophical/historical underpinnings (especially the justification based on Mohamed’s example).. refer to my last post.

Madness and Lunacy would have to be the prime character traits of ill equipped, ranting, raving, hate filled, Muslim fanatics who seem to think Allah (?) will protect them from the wrath of the IDF, which has only held back from driving every last Palestinian man, woman and child from Gaza into the sea because of ‘Western Values” and the absence of such a threat as WMD in the hands of the Palestinian mob.

REMINDER from the Islamic Hadith about Jihad “Justification of killing women and children, during night raids, provided it is not deliberate”
Book 019, Number 4321:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html

The only thing more stupid than the Islamo/fascists themselves, is the dillbrains like Abbas who on the one hand condemn such actions as the kidnapping of the Israeli soldier, but on the other refuse to use force against the gun toting Palestinian loonies themselves.

PALESTINIAN DUNKIRK (but without the high moral ground)
In my opinion the international Arab/Islamic community should begin preparations for the mass exodus of Palestinians from Gaza, and their resettlement in various Islamic countries, with maximum quota’s per country, numbers per suburb/area and the threat of indefinite incarceration if they involve themselves in any terror/Palestine Liberation related activities. We don’t need/want them in the West.

You want me to “educate” you, Mr Strewth? Well, OK, but I should be charging you for this.

LESSON 1

BREAK UP YOUR POSTS.

Now, lets take your first submission on this topic, which was a total disaster, because it was a single paragraph. You have to break your posts down into two or three sentence paragraphs because.

1. It makes them easier to read.
2. It makes you come across as someone giving thoughtful, measured responses.
3. If you don’t break them up. You look like a loony who has let forth an uninterrupted tirade.

LESSON 2

BE POLITE TO YOUR OPPONENTS IF THEY ARE POLITE TO YOU.

Now let’s look at your second post where you reamed out Mr Logic. Mr Logic’s post was fair and reasonable, and most of his opponents would have conceded that he had some good points. But you came at him with a HOW DARE YOU STICK UP FOR THOSE UNSPEAKABLE ISRAELIS! I-WILL-RIP-YOUR-GUTS-OUT-FOR-THIS, kind of response. That was dumb, dumb, dumb.

If you want to help the Israelis, you are doing a great job. Because Mr Logic supports the Israelis, and he comes across as a nice and reasonable guy. But you come across as a total lunatic. And if you are an example of the sort of people who support the Palestinian terrorists, then any impartial observer would be more inclined to back the Israelis, purely upon the basis of a comparison of the type of people who support either side.

LESSON 3

KEEP THE PERSONAL ABUSE DOWN

Now insulting your opponent is alright, as a matter of fact it can be very entertaining to your readers. But the trick is to do it in a clever way. Your effort with David Boaz did not come up to scratch. You undoubtedly didn’t see it, but David left himself wide open to a free kick with his inappropriate metaphor.

Putting your opponent down cleverly takes a bit of wit. Since you do not seem to have any wit, my advice to you is to not try it at all.

OK, so far?

Gee, red, so much attention to lil ol ME? Could it be that you feel threatened by factual responses to your propagandist claptrap and that of your mates? Now, come on, Bamboozled is YOURS, when are you going to have the courage to own him and his gibberish? And when are you going to produce the kind of QUALITY submission that only YOU know how to do based on one of his (red) herrings?

From Hadith Muslim

Spoken to the Jews of Hijaz by Mohamed founder of Islam
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html

Book 019, Number 4363:
"- He (Mohamed) said to them (Jews of Hijaz) (the same words) the third time (and on getting the same reply) he added: You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle, and I wish that I should expel you from this land Those of you who have any property with them should sell it, otherwise they should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (and they may have to go away leaving everything behind)."

2006 a message from Israel to Gaza.

Oh inhabitants of Gaza....we stand at your gates. We give you this choice. Embrace G-D, and the one true faith which is from Him. Turn away from your idolatry and blind obedience to him who has led you astray (Mohamed).
If you embrace the One true G-D and His one true faith, you and your property will be safe.
If you do not, then sell your property, or you might have to abandon it all and flee, never to return. Know this, the earth and all that is in it belongs to G-D and his chosen people Israel.

COMMENT. Now, of course there is no such explicit message from the Israelis, but in a way it is implicit. The above is simply a 'mirror' reflecting the actions of Mohamed back at him. They would simply be enacting the same scenario that they themselves experienced at the hands of Mohamed when he ethno/religiously cleansed Arabia of Jews/Judaism many years ago.
Except...today the Jews have the firepower, the Muslims do not.
The only thing the Israeli's lack is the will power to finish the job.

JUDGEMENT.... "Good for Mohamed/Islam, good for Israel/Judaism"

I call on Israel to stand at the border of GAZA and proclaim all the murderous, genocidal,ethnic cleansing, crimes of history perpetrated by Mohamed, and declare forthwith 'Judgement' on them in the same terms as was given to them as outlined above for the Jews of Hijaz.

Red, he's ALL yours.

Aw shucks, Strewth, is that all the gratitude I get for helping you and showing you the error of your ways? You must be a Palestinian.

Well, I know that this is not really a debate site, it is an opinion site, but the best way to write a good opinion piece is to write something showing cause and effect. You can't get aay with just coming on here with a conviction that you are totally right and argue your case with little more than a bad attitude. The guys here are too smart for that. They will eat you.

OK, so David is tossing quotes from a Muslim scholar's book which shows you how nasty Mohammed was. If you want to return the complement, dig out your old Bible (I chucked mine away years ago) and find the bit around EXODUS where it says something like "And God commanded Moses to attack the Caananites and slaughter every man, woman and child. And God commanded Moses that the beasts of their fields must be slaughtered also."

Nice God, huh?

I wonder what Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch would make of David's God.

Although, I am a bit worried that you may be a devil dodger yourself because of your name. "Strewth", is an old English word that literally means "God's truth."

Gee willikins, red, you're STILL banging on about how to write an "opinion piece" (down from your original "QUALITY submission") without it seems coming up with one yourself. Do you really have ANY opinion pieces for us "smart guys" or is it a case of 'If you can't, teach'? Bamboozled's got them coming out of his ears, but what about you? If Bamboozled's more frenetic topics don't appeal, maybe I can come up with some for you:

Write an "opinion piece/QUALITY submission" on either:

a)Zionism & Christian Zionism: A marriage made in heaven

OR

b)Zionism & Christian Zionism: The love that dare not speak its name.

OR

c)Bamboozled: My part in his Divine Plan.

Well, ya see, Strewthie, I am concerned about the abysmal quality of many of the submissions on OLO. I decided to give you a hand because your own efforts are probably the worst I have seen. I figured if anybody needed a bit of guidance, it was you.

I would point out that almost every submission on this subject has gone right off-topic. That is because most people do not have an opinion either way as to whether Gerald Steinberg is correct in his analysis or not. So this forum has simply reverted to a topic voicing pro or anti Israeli sentiments.

But if you want me to give an opinion on that, I will. I am 100% for the Israelis. The reason being is that I am a racist and I don't like Muslims or Arabs, while I admire the Jews. If the Arabs won't leave the Israelis alone, then I really don't care if the Israelis shoot back. And as far as I am concerned, the Israelis can throw their whole inventory at the useless no-hopers.

As to whether the explosion on Gaza beach was caused by a 155mm artillery shell, I would point out that such a weapon is a very odd choice for an assassination weapon. Atmospheric conditions at the shells apogee are impossible to predict, and that is why artillery forward observers always have their batteries fire "ranging shells" first in order to "walk" artilley rounds onto a target.

If some Israeli Forward Observation Observer managed to splatter some terrorist and his family from 10 kilometres away, with just one round of 155mm HE, it would have to go down as the best artilley shot in history.

Still, the Jews have a reputation for producing geniuses, which most definitely does not apply to the Arabs. So it is possible that such a feat is not beyond them.

There, there, red, doesn't that feel better now that you're finally out of the closet? A proud, strutting, Arab-hating, Islamophobic racist Likudnik. Why are we not surprised? All that posturing and claptrap about "QUALITY submissions" - such a waste of time. Now, let's get down to more practical matters. When you've finished singing Israel uber alles, I might suggest that, in light of your concern about the "abysmal quality" of "OLO submissions", you might find greener pastures with the volk over at Little Green Footballs. If, on the other hand, you're going to continue to grace us with your presence, might I engage you further on the subject of the on-topic Palestinian untermenschen of Gaza? Bamboozled's recipe for a Final Solution, smoting them hip and thigh, is a little dated, no? Well, what's your Final Solution? Should your Israeli ubermenschen rebadge Gaza as Auschwitz-by-the-sea and wheel in the gas chambers? Or should they simply declare it the Gaza Ghetto and pound it to rubble?

Reddy
regarding the old_Bible you threw away and the rather loose 'quote' about God instructing the destruction of a whole people. We need to clarify something.

No well informed Christian to my knowledge uses 'specific historical events' from the Old Testament context as '2006 commandments' or.. examples to follow.

We cannot look at what God did then, and say "Ah HAH ! see what God did to the evil Canaanites, clearly these are commands for us to follow"...nope. wont happen.

This is why I am never worried to debate the Old Testament. There is absolutely NO command from God based on those events to embark on war against any people today.

You mentioned 'some God..eh'.. well, yes indeed He IS some God, who will only accomodate human waywardness for a time and a season. There comes a point where mankind 'crosses' an irreversable barrier and becomes unable to turn back. Only God knows the heart. But its also possible for a whole people to be in this condition. Archeological excavations have shown up to 20,000+ corpses of Canaanite babies sacrificed to pagan gods. God judged them.

While I realize fully that the idea of God judging mankind for our sin is unpalatable to the modern mind, it is nevertheless a reality both then and now.

That aside, in contrast to the 'ABSENSE' of justification Biblically to fight wars in the name of Christianity, it is not so with Islam.

There are specific COMMANDS and DELIBERATE "justifications" for Muslims to fight in the name of Allah and their religion.

Muslims glorify Mohamed as the 'best example' and I just expose the full picture of this example for the evil that it is.

This is what I am taking great pains to point out, as it is a near and present danger to our own security and well being.

We urge people to follow Christ, his example and teaching, and to do such is safe, there is no "Christian" war possible on that basis.

Dear Strewth
I must say I'm kinda warming to you through your posts. You are without doubt entertaining in the extreme.

Please bear in mind, that my posts are not neccessarily (unless stated) expressing 'Christian' views on some matters, I speak in a purely human mode at times, taking the mindset of say the Israelis as people under threat.

Its most difficult to speak of such situations in a 'Christian' manner without seeming like the wimp of the century. On a personal level, I live in the sermon on the mount, as far as possible desiring to show Gods love for sinner and saint, and I would differentiate myself from the 'Hamas gunmman' as an example, by assuring you that I don't have any personal animosity towards Arabs, as they seem to have toward Jews and Israel. If I found one bleeding and dying, I'd do my best to help him. "Love your enemies", in contrast to Zarqawi and company who "carve" slowly the heads off 'infidel' victims, in accordance with a specific Quranic verse.

But on matters such as Gaza/Israel, I speak from Romans 13 (you need to read this)which refers (at that time) to a pagan Emporer, and his responsibility to militarily defend the state. The principle applies to any "Emporer" including mr Bush as far as I can see.

Scrutinizing the specific incident at Gaza beach, will not be very fruitful unless you believe that a long protracted propoganda war will win the day for Palestinians. Hardly likely. You might discover "It was an Israeli Shell"..... so ? You just read/heard about an Israeli settler murdered by Palestinians.. so ? Such incidents are not very relevant to the big picture.

My 'Final Solution' is to move all Palestinians from Gaza to Arab Islamic countries as per previous post. In the long run its the best and most merciful solution :) "New life, peace, safety"...sounds pretty good to me.

David

I am at a loss why you think Israel under threat?

Is it because the Israelis dispossessed the original inhabitants of Palestine, then keep them in a suppressed stateless position, continue to steal their remaining lands with 'settlements', carry out military incursions at the smallest provocation, use them as a source of cheap labour and reject outright their attempts at democracy?

All this from the only nation in the mid east that has nuclear weapons... your statement needs a critical examination.

And you, you christian, want to dispossess them even futhur.

Tell me were you a public servant in Australia that oversaw the removal of Indigenous people from their homes?

To David. I knew that would rev you up. But no matter how you duck and weave, your God was a very naughty boy according to today’s standards.

To Mr Strewth.

Totally eradicating an enemy population does have it’s merits, Mr Strewth. And I for one would not blame the Israelis for practicing a little “Final Solution” of their own, given the level of threat to their people from the Palestinians. Why should you object to that? After all, that is exactly what the Arabs have in mind for the Jews. But the Jews have been on the receiving end plenty of times before, and they are not having any more of that.

So, if any Arab army succeeds in getting any foothold on Israeli soil, the Jews will drag out their Jericho IRBM’s and it will be goodbye Damascus, goodbye Baghdad, Goodbye Tripoli, goodbye Tehran, and goodbye Riyadh. They almost did that in the 1973 Yom Kippur War, and it was only because the Yanks and the Russians both warned Israel of immediate retaliation from Soviet ICBM’s, that a large part of the Middle East today is not a giant sheet of glass.

But the Israelis made their point, and the Yanks and Ivans both collaborated to stop the Egyptians and Syrians from making bigger idiots of themselves before things got right out of hand.

Get it through your tiny head that the Israelis have no intention of going anywhere. Israel is a country which has no natural resources at all, and it exists primarily upon the enterprise and intelligence of it’s people. Long after the Arabs have squandered their own fabulous oil resources and gone back to living in mud huts, eating dates, bonking their cousins and waiting for Allah to solve all of their problems for them, the Israelis will still be one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world.

My goodness. You are one sick puppy, red. An intention to nuke all and sundry is a sign of ..."enterprise and intelligence"? Palestinians a threat to Israel? You're as deluded in your way as Bamboozled. Still, at least you're beginning to open up and that's the first step towards healing. Would it help, do you think, to discuss your personal trauma with me in more detail? I'm more than willing to listen.

To Mr Strewth.

And the point you wish to make about the Arab-Israeli conflict is....?

Gerald,
The reason Israel has no credibility in the world today is that its historical reaction to any overture of peace by the Palestinians (most recently the attempt by Hamas and Fatah to conform to Prime Minister Olmert’s insistence that Hamas recognize the state of Israel before the financial and physical siege of the occupied territories is lifted) has been to provoke the Palestinians (by murdering innocent Palestinian civilians) into an irrational act that Israel can then use as an excuse to invade the occupied territories and not negotiate with Palestinian representative. Prime Minister Olmert after all has just been trying to sell a unilateral 'peace treaty' negotiated with itself to the USA and Europe with limited effect. Israel should remember the old adage that if you fool someone once shame on you if you fool someone twice shame on them the world has witnessed Israel’s tactics to peace so many times it is no longer fooled by their rhetoric

...is that it's consumed and sickened you and your fellow Zionists and that until you get rid of all that displaced anger and self-deception, until you see the sheer pointlessness of reinventing Hitler again and again and again, until you realise that exclusive ethnic tribalism and tribal ghettos are not the way, until you remove your jackboot from the necks of people whose only crime is that they had the misfortune to be born in the land that you arrogantly claim is yours and yours alone, you will never know peace.

Strewth,
Thank you for your rounding off. It is obvious even to Blind Fredy that the insipid pro-Israeli lobby is alive and well in Australia and though it is sometimes like banging your head against a brick wall attempting to overcome their misinformation and outright propaganda it is necessary that one never gives up trying.

Keiith

Sorry but the Palestinians were not actually the original inhabitants of Palestine. There are Jews in Israel today who can make a reasonable case that they are descendants of the ancient Israelites.

Also, Israel became home to thousands of Jews from Alexandria, Iraq, Yemen, Iran etc. who were dispossesed by Arab leaders. The numbers of Jews displaced in this way probably equals the numbers of Arabs displaced from Israel. These Jewish communities were in many cases established long before the Arabs arrived in these countries.

Further more the early Jewish settlements in Israel (18th and 19th centuries) were started by people legally moving within the Otoman Empire (a Musim leadership) and purchasing the lands which they occupied.

Whatever you say about Israel the ordinary Arab people who remained in the state of Israel have an equal vote in the goverment and enjoy vastly better living standards than the ordinary folks in Arab lands.

This is not Zionist propoganda it is history.

Interesting point Logic.

I don't agree the Palestinians were not the 'Original Inhabitants' of Palestine.
Crucially your argument will fail with the claim by Palestinians to a similar lineage to the original Israelites. I do believe the Palestinians can show similar traditional links to that tribe of Israelites. Who was it Abraham who was the father of the Jews and his brother(?) was the father of the Arabs? I'm vague but I'm sure someone with a better grasp of the relevant history can enlighten us.

But I think your argument largely defeated with more modern analogies. Ask the question: Who owns Australia? The original Inhabitants or those who have purchased and owned land in Australia over the past couple of hundred years? How would the land owning white Aussie react if he was pushed off 'his' land, marginalised, suppressed and exploited?

Another argument: My ancestors occupied large tracts of coastal Munster. They were dispossed by English migrants. Have I the right to push them out and reclaim my traditional heritage?

I think not.

One other point. While some Israeli's can probably prove links to the original Israelites, many cannot. Take for example the many Jews escaping from Russia and it's territories who claim Jewish heritage. History shows clearly none can claim any ancestral link with the original inhabitants.

But talk to me also about the current land grabbing 'settlements'?

logic: Who were the original inhabitants of Palestine? Are you in a position to say? Where's your evidence? And tell me why it even matters. How does the fact that Jewish Arabs (uprooted by the Zionist movement to move onto & into Palestinian lands and homes stolen by Israel following the expulsion of the Palestinian refugees in 48-9) ended up in Israel improper have any bearing whatsoever on whether Palestine should be taken from the people who were living there before the Zionists arrived? 18th century Jewish settlements? Please explain. As for the Palestinian Arabs who managed to avoid being ethnically cleansed by Zionist forces in 48-49, please show chapter and verse, as opposed to mere assertion, in just what ways they are better off than non-Palestinian Arabs who didn't receive the suggested social and economic benefits of Israeli ethnic cleansing.

Strewth
Talk about "remove your jackboot from the necks of people"
Your style of discussion has all the subtlety of a SS interrogation session.

"Show chapter and verse, as opposed to mere assertion, in just what ways they are better off than non-Palestinian Arabs"
What crap! -Use your eyes -or probably in your case more appropriately, your echolocation organ.
Let me paint a picture of life in “free" Palestine":
-Something happens they don't like, big brother blows a whistle, and then they’re all out frothing at the mouth and shrieking in the streets-fathers mothers sons & daughters -like automatons.
-Someone is accused of "collaborating" -they are shot in the street.
-Someone sells land to an Israeli -they are shot in the street.
(The Palestinian Penal Code applying in the West Bank enables imposition of the death penalty on a person who was convicted of committing any of seventeen offenses, while in the Gaza Strip; fifteen offenses warrant the death penalty.)
For a bit of fun on a Saturday night they may decide to blow-up an Israeli school or hospital, and when they are not doing that, they are blowing up each other.

No wonder they’re yearning to return to Israeli occupied lands.
It’s not the land they really want but Israel’s good governance.

It's a pity Strewth you'll never get a chance to live next to them. You might not find their antics so endearing.

Strewth last time we had talks on this issue I thought I put you back on the straight and narrow- now you’ve gone and reverted to your wild form again!

OK, Mr Strewth, you have not given me much to work with, with your latest rant, but I will see what I can do.

Your first attribution error is that I am not Jewish. Just a North European Prot who for thirty years has watched the Israelis defend themselves against repeated attacks by Arabs, who just will not let them live in peace.

You then claimed that I am “reinventing Hitler”. That could imply any of a dozen different scenarios. Could you be specific, instead of general? If you make your statements specific, I can attack the logic and nail you to the wall. Making declaration in a general way (talking in riddles) is the coward’s way of debating. It means that if I attack your premise, you just come back and say “ No! That’s not what I meant.”

“If “exclusive ethnic tribalism” is “not the way”, then I find your logic curious. There are probably more wars going on at this very moment than at any other time in human history. Almost all of these wars are race wars over territory. It is self evident that all of the waring factions on this planet do not agree with you. The only countries which have embraced “Multiculturalism” are those societies that are prosperous enough to afford to pay for it’s concomitant problems.

Finally, you demand that Israelis “remove their jackboots from the necks of people whose only crime is to be born in the land you arrogantly claim is yours.”

Why?

So that Arab Muslims can stick their jackboots on the necks of people who’s only crime is to be born in the land you arrogantly claim is yours?

Why is it logic never seems to be able to answer questions put to him without s.o. else rudely butting in? As for bovver boots Horus, if the jackboot fits, wear it! God, you're a goose. I said "non-Palestinian Arabs." So why're you banging on about...Palestinian Arabs? Still, your little caricature of that fragment of Palestine under the Israeli Jackboot (aka Occupation) which you quaintly describe as "free" is a hoot. Pure projection. More please! "Living next to them"? Diddums, but then you're special, aren't you? And Horus, if you represent "the straight and narrow" (as in narrow-minded?), I'll take the other. Now kindly allow logic to answer his own questions. So rude, your butting in.

Red, red: You're a Prot, eh? And you get your jollies watching one of the world's most powerful armies courageously lord it over the Palestinians? Sick stuff, red. I detect a weapons freak. Bet you love the Yanks strutting their stuff in Iraq too. All that shock and awe back in 2003 must've been positively orgasmic for you. Nazis? An admirer? The Romans? The Crusaders? Blood and guts - as long as it's someone else's? "Race wars"? I can see you salivating at the prospect. A Prot, or a Prat?

To Mr Strewth.

No, as a matter of fact, I opposed the war in Iraq.

Saddam was estimated to have murdered over a million Muslims during his tenure as President for Life, and personaly, I could not give a damn how many mass graves full of Iraqi's, Iranians, Kuwaitis and Kurds he filled up.

I also don;t think that the USA should get involved with saving fruitcake nations from themselves. Too many Good Guys get killed, and the people that the yanks liberate never have any gratitude, either. Look at France. Personally, I hope the Deutchies start polishing up their panzers again and start dreaming about how wunterbar it was to have France part of the Vaterland. I am sure nobody in the English speaking world will bother helping the Frogs again.

Nah, Strewthie, some countries are just not worth saving. I am personally looking forward to the next famine in Somalia. I doupt after the last time when the UN forces were mass murdered by the very people who's worthless lives they had come to save, they will bother doing it again. The yanks sure as hell won't lead the way. With a bit of luck, AIDS might do as good a job on the Arabs as it is doing on the Africans.

Red, Just a few questions:

a)You described yourself earlier as a racist. How is it that Jews seem to have escaped your racism?
b)This business about Arabs "not leaving Israel in peace" is interesting. Might it have something to do with Israel's taking their land and turning them into refugees, do you think?
c)What would be your response to someone who came to evict you from your home because they were under the illusion that they had a God-given right to it?

@ Keith

"You, you Christian, want to disposses them even further"....

In short YES !

I want to disposess them and then place them in countries where they can forget about the 'lost land' just as I have forgotten about the land my ancestors on dads side were dispossessed from in Scotland, and now I look around and see how my life is 'not all that shabby'. Yes, it can take a couple of generations to build things up again, but gee, isnt it better to do that and have peace, rather than rockets zooming down on you every week or so ?

Sometimes you have to be 'cruel' to be kind. So its not really cruelty.

I feel that to address every 'lost land' issue would consume the worlds lawyers 10 times over, and it's just unworkable.

Always resolves to 'how far do we go back' ? Surely you can see this ?

Then there is the problem of governments who don't want such, which would result in either patchwork justice or more war.

KEY ISSUE

The 'plan' which Hamas 'implicitly' agreed to concerning recognition of Israels right to exist, INCLUDED "East Jerusalem as capital" and that.. my friend is the key to the future of the world, not just the conflict there.

Status of the Temple mount/Dome of the Rock is the.. repeat THE...key issue in all of this. It is more important to Jews than Muslims.

It is the 3rd most holy place for Muslims
It is the FIRST most holy place for Jews. (i.e. the religious ones)

Do the math :)

P.S. for further information about Abraham, Isaac (father of Jews) and Ishmael (father of Arabs) please read Genesis chapter 12 to the end.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=12&version=31
will take you straight to it. Understand that, and you will understand the whole conflict.

Why do Evangelical Christians support Zionism?

For a start, there is the alliance between America and Israel in the war on Islamic terror. But it goes deeper. For Christians who interpret the bible in a literal fashion, Israel has a crucial role to play in bringing on the Second Coming of Christ.

“It is my belief that the Bible Belt in America is Israel’s only safety belt right now,” says Rev. Jerry Falwell, one of the leaders of the Christian Right. That’s the bulk of Evangelical Christians; Falwell claims to speak for all of them.

“There are 70 million of us,” he says. “And if there’s one thing that brings us together quickly it’s whenever we begin to detect our government becoming a little anti-Israel.”

What propels them? The return of the Jews to their ancient homeland is seen by Evangelicals as a precondition for the Second Coming of Christ. Therefore, when the Jewish state was created in 1948 they saw it as a sign.

Israel’s conquest of Jerusalem and the West Bank in 1967 also deepened their excitement and heightened their anticipation. And today’s war between Jews and Arabs was also prophesied, they say. They’ve seen it all before – in the pages of the Bible.

The Christian fundamentalists believe the only Israelis who are really listening to God are the hard line Jewish settlers who live on the West Bank and Gaza and refuse to move.

They believe that God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people.

What about the three million Palestinians who live on the West Bank and Gaza?

Christians, like Boaz (and he has admitted this in his posts) believe the bulk of them could be ‘cleansed’ from this ‘God-given’ real estate and moved to some Arab country. Nothing can come between the Jews and their land.

Without the involvement of the Christian right, Israel would be making (or would’ve made) peace with Palestine.

All of which proves the horrors that are created when God is invoked as a reason – a reason for anything.

Congratulations BOAZ_David.

2000 posts on OLO, and in less than 18 months.

Mammoth effort.

David

Ahhh Genesis, the Old Testament. Wasn't it you who said

'No well informed Christian to my knowledge uses 'specific historical events' from the Old Testament context as '2006 commandments' or.. examples to follow.

We cannot look at what God did then, and say "Ah HAH ! see what God did to the evil Canaanites, clearly these are commands for us to follow"...nope. wont happen.

This is why I am never worried to debate the Old Testament. There is absolutely NO command from God based on those events to embark on war against any people today.'

Now I suppose the Palestinians are expected to leave peacefully because the odd Christian and all the Israelites wish such? And all because the God of both Christian and Jew said, thousands of years ago, 'the Jews own the Palestinians land'.

God help you all. It's no wonder many of us are so troubled about religion.

The Sermon on the Mount, David... you profess that as your 'rock'.
What had Christ to say of one's enemies?

"Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." (Luke 6:28-31. King James Version)

Nothing in that there dialogue that supports Ethnic Cleansing.

David in this issue your support for the Israeli's runs counter to the teachings of Christ ... your God ... and your own stated moral position. I'll repeat it for you so you are less confused...

'There is absolutely NO command from God based on those events (OT) to embark on war against any people today.'

Who says that the Palestinians are expected to leave? And for that matter why should the Israelis? If each keeps to their own territory what is wrong with that?

Israel is at last starting to move the settlers from the Palestinian lands. However Hamas will not recognise Israels right to exist and still runs a platform of destroying them.

No one has commented on the position of hundreds of thousands of Jews dispossesed from the Arab lands. If the Palestinians want the right of return to their homes can these Jews have equal right of return to Egypt, Iraq, Iran Yemen etc? Would they get their homes back and be given full democratic rights and the freedom to practice their religion?

More illogic from logic: "If each keeps to their own country"? What are the Israel Occupation Forces doing in the West Bank then? And why shouldn't ALL Palestinian refugees return to their homes and lands in Israel improper? "Israel is at last starting to move the settlers from the Palestinian lands." More unsupported assertions. There are over 400,000 settlers in the WB and East Jerusalem. Refer me to one concrete piece of evidence re seriously "starting to move them" as opposed to entrenching them?

Jewish Arabs again, the usual red herring to fob off coming to terms wioth a just settlement of the Palestinian refugee problem. The 2 issues are only linked by Zionist propagandists like Horus. Nobody seriously concerned with refugee rights ever indulges in games of playing off one group of refugees against another. The facts: the primary issues here were Zionist campaigns to uproot them in the wake of the expulsion of the majority of Palestinians in those parts of Palestine overrun by Zionist forces in 1948-49. Although they are not living in refugee camps in Israel, should any regard themselves as refugees, they have the right of all refugees, including the Palestinian refugees, to return to their former homelands. Would they get their homes back and be given full citizenship rights? I have no idea. Should they? Absolutely. Now what about my other questions?

Re anyone concerned with the kind of side/non-issues raised by our friend Bamboozled, could I suggest a read of Keith Whitelam's 'The Invention of Ancient Israel'. That's right, invention: Solomon and David who? The very basis of Bamboozled's cult and that of political Zionism has no foundation WHATEVER in the ancient historical record.

To Mr Strewth.

I always know when I am winning a debate because my opponents simply resort to tossing questions at me while pointedly ignoring mine. But I will play along.

Question A. I notice that the Jews have not escaped your racism. But I bet you pretend that you are non racist, right?

Question B. Yes it might. But if everybody who’s land was stolen at some time in history demanded their land back, the entire human race would be at each others throats. Just a few examples. Historically, Burgundy in France was part of Germany. “Britanny” in France was historically populated by British tribes. Italy is still sore at what was once Yugoslavia (now Croatia) stealing a large tract of it’s northern coastline after WW2. The Spaniards are sore at the Briish over Gibraltar. The Argies claim the Falkland Islands. The Germans are sore at the Ivans for annexing Prussia, which the Germans have always considered the heart of Germany. Japan is sore at the ivans for stealing Kamchatka Island. The Chinese are sore at the Ivans for stealing Manchuria. The Australian aborigines are sore at everybody on the planet who now live on what they consider is their land.

Hey, come to think of it, when is the Islamic world going to hand back stolen Constantinople to Christendom?

Get over it.

Question C. The government already has that right to evict me from my land if it sees fit. People’s properties are resumed by governments for the public good, all of the time.

Now answer my question. If you live in Australia, then you are living on aboriginal land. So, when are you going to comply with your own sense of injustice and head back to some backward Arab dump where you came from?

Strewth

I was not actually directing my comments to you. It is however not a red herring to bring up the issue of eastern Jews. (They are not by any means mainly Arabs - many arrived in Egypt and the Persion Empire long before the Arabs arrived).

Their presence does pose a problem for those who maintain that Israel was occupied by "Zionist conquest" or who claim that it was purely a solution to a European problem. You must know that they would not be welcome back in their own countries. Some in fact live here in Australia. They were certainly not uprooted by a Zionist campaign but disadvantaged in their own land together with Christians. In Iraq some were actually murdered by the regime.

This certainly illustrates that the problem is not one-sided, the point which I am trying hard to make. Why is it that any arguement is distorted by you by blaming Zionism?

Strewth has little real concern for any refugees, they are merely pieces in a giant chess game he plays in his head.

The worst outcome for him would be for the sensible Israelis & sensible Palestinians to come to agreed settlement and form two independent states.He would support such a solution if he really wanted to end the refugees suffering -but he and many of the Arab states want to keep the pressure cooker boiling to suit their own political ends.

Any one who doesn’t see eye to eye with him is branded a Zionist stooge (his saying so –makes it so).

Don’t waste your time pointing to other refugees & displaced groups, in other regions, now or in the past, it won’t make an iota of difference. If they can’t assist his campaign- he’s not interested.

KEITH

well done ! :)

Ok.. a couple of important points.

My referring you to the Genesis record, was not to derive 'specific commands' but to show the historical origins of the problem.

When I refer to 'historical' events, I should have made myself clearer, apologies. There is a distinction between 'event' such as a war by the Israelites against the Midianites. And clearly specific commands or statements by God "This land will be for you and your descendants forever"

We cannot say 'because Moses kicked Midianite butt, and exterminated them, we can therefore exterminate the Palestinians.'

But when God says 'This is your land....forever' aah.. that is a different story.

Now we come to the confusing part. Sermon on the mount, "Love your enemies" etc.

There is an interesting aspect to the broader teaching on'enemies' where Jesus adds in one place "For by doing so, you heap burning coals on their heads"... meaning of course, that if you treat them with kindness and they STILL attack and harm you, their guilt is more than confirmed.

Jesus would have had in mind a particular Old Testament event when He taught the "If your enemy is hungry, give him bread".
It was when the Arameans were attacking Israel and ran out of supplies. Elijah instructed the Israelites to take bread to them,- in so doing, it diffused the situation, the Arameans went home and peace reigned.....until... younger Arameans decided to come back and wreak more havoc and take territory and slaves.

Keith bear in mind, Jesus also said "If your eye sins, GOUGE IT OUT" :) Perhaps, just perhaps, he was getting a 'point' across in a 'culturally appropriate' manner to the hearers of his day on both issues about enemies and sin eyes ?

You have much to learn young Jedi :) (as do we all)

Red, You wish.
a) Why so coy about my 1st question? You don't like this lot, you don't like that lot, or maybe even your own for all we know. I'm curious as to why Jews get a special dispensation from you. As for me, I defy you to quote ANY racist comment I've allegedly made.
b) "It might": there's progress! Palestinian land was not stolen at "some time in history" but in the post-UN era: 48-49, and is still going on today. Your examples from France to Australia are not cases where the people inhabiting those areas were expelled to make way for an exclusive ethno-religious sovereignty.
c) Pure speciousness. And anyway, wouldn't you be offered compensation at market value?
Your question: Australia, in respect of its indigenous population, is a binational state. Whatever their level of socio-economic disadvantage (and I'm sure you're really concerned with that) they are equal citizens before the law with non-indigenes, none have been expelled to other countries and none are under military occupation. If Israel were a binational state for all its inhabitants (whether Jews, Christians, Muslims, Atheists etc, whether returned refugees or currently enfranchised) instead of an ethno-religious ghetto run in the interests of one group, it wouldn't be causing the trouble it now does.
Now, back to Question A.

Strewthy
peeked at that book by Whitless, reminds me of the Nazi ‘re-construction’ of history of the Jews to suit their genocidal agenda.

Partial synopsis:

[... and argues that Biblical scholars, through their traditional view of this area, have contributed to dispossession both of a Palestinian land and a Palestinian past].

COMMENT
Small Problem: Prior to the resurgence of Zionism and the period from WWII to 1948 the Jews as a people were hardly an issue. The idea that Biblical Scholars have ‘invented’ their past to annoy Arabs is a projection BACK from ‘now’ by vested Arab and Islamic interests seeking to re-construct that which is so well documented that it defies the imagination. I won’t bore people with a list of archeological evidence, as the only person seeming to question it is ‘you’ and it won’t matter to you what is presented, you will still find the CIA ran 9/11 :) if you get my drift.
See the works of William F Albright for some insights on History and Archeology.
In my own Church there is an Archeologist of considerable academic clout.

The very suggestion that in the back of the minds of Biblical Scholars of lets say pre WW1 they sought to ‘justify and invent’ a past for Israel is simply ludicrous, not to mention unsupported by indisputable evidence.

The most that can be said, is that there is considerable “debate” about some aspects of Biblical History, coming more from the German Liberal Academics than anywhere else. Yes, the time and nature of the Exodus, the Abraham period are questioned, but a close examination of the debate will show just where such people are coming from and the paucity of their claims.
Funnily enough, the ARABS will tell you that they came from.....guess who ? ISHMAEL :) son of Abraham, the...... ‘invented one’.....’duh’.
If you are gonna push something, puh-lease push something with clout.
* ....wanders off- muttering *

P.S. your last post was at least bordering on the persuasive, but is disconnected from many important factors.
Mention the UN and my eyes just glaze over.

David

You are being very selective in your use of the Old Testament. In one case you say we cannot use God's actions in that source as a guide to ways to behave and in another case you say we must trust some things in that source proported to have been said by God.

Your statements

"We cannot look at what God did then, and say "Ah HAH ! see what God did to the evil Canaanites, clearly these are commands for us to follow...'"

and

"But when God says 'This is your land....forever' aah.. that is a different story."

Since exactly he same source is used in both cases I cannot see how you can use one as an authority and discredit the other. Simply lacks consistancy.

And please can you refer me to the following in Christ's sermon on the Mount. I for the life of me cannot find them in any text of that particular sermon.

'There is an interesting aspect to the broader teaching on'enemies' where Jesus adds in one place "For by doing so, you heap burning coals on their heads".'

and

'Jesus would have had in mind a particular Old Testament event when He taught the "If your enemy is hungry, give him bread".'

Both teachings of course are consistant with the lessons of the Sermon and should confirm to you the Israeli's actions are running counter to your as yet unabandoned and inconsistant awoved desire to 'ethnic cleanse' Gaza and the Holy Lands.

Ahhhhh that sinful eye.

'Mention the UN and my eyes just glaze over...'

Impossible! Since you've not adopted Christ's teaching and show support for exactly the opposite ... well you'd have gouged yours by now... and why wouldn't you? Doesn't Christ demand that? ;-)

oops Sorry David was in to much of a hurry to twist the knife a little and made the following error in my last comment!

'Both teachings of course are consistant with the lessons of the Sermon and should confirm to you the Israeli's actions are running counter to your as yet unabandoned and inconsistant awoved desire to 'ethnic cleanse' Gaza and the Holy Lands.'

This should have read:

Both teachings of course are consistant with the lessons of the Sermon and should confirm to you that the Israeli's actions are running counter to your beliefs and that your as yet unabandoned, inconsistant awoved desire to 'ethnic cleanse' Gaza and the Holy Lands is still out of line with Christian practise.

To Mr Strewth.

I am not “coy” about anything. I simply pointed out that you are hardly noted for your friendly attitudes to Jews. Your constant implication is that the entire Israeli nation are a thieving bunch of murdering scoundrels. That sure sounds like racism to me. And I therefore find your anti racist superior attitude towards me to be nothing but a feigned pose.

To answer your second question again, I would concede that “Palestinians” do have a genuine beef. But since the Palestinians were going to drive out the Jews if they had won their war in 1948, they can hardly complain if they lost the war, and the Jews returned the complement to them. In addition, the behaviour of “Palestinians” in the past forty years, including the mass murder of Olympians and the hijacking of Western airliners, has been so bad that I do not have the slightest sympathy for them. “Palestinians”, most of whom were born in Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, or Syria, have become such a threat to the Western air travellers, that most people now think that “Palestinian” and “Terrorist” is just one word.

Your analysis of question 3 is specious. Democracies can only work if there is a fundamental agreement by all of a nations demographic groups as to what exactly constitutes correct behaviour. Any society divided between two or more groups whose cultural values are diametrically opposed, is doomed to endless internal strife. That is exactly the situation that Israel is in. Either the Jews run Israel/Palestine with Jewish cultural values being the basis for the nations laws, or the Muslims run it with Sharia law being the cultural basis for the law. It can’t be both. The only alternative is separatism with the stronger side expelling the losers. That is exactly what happened, and the only reason why the Muslims are sore about that is because they were the ones who lost.

The only reason why Australia is different is because the dominant culture is North European and many immigrants accept that. .

Loved Bamboozled's bit about "peeking at that book". I'm prepared to believe that he reads the Bible, and is valiantly struggling to understand it. I believe his Star Wars DVD is worn to a frazzle. I do not, however, believe he's "peeked at that book" - or any other.

Now, logic, you too need to do some solid reading (as in BOOKS) about Jewish Arabs, also collateral damage of the Zionist project. Arthur Neslen's 'Occupied Minds: A Journey Through the Israeli Psyche' has a heartbreaking interview with Yemeni Rabbi Shlomo Korah which touches on the circumstances in which his community made aliyah (no suggestion whatever of ethnic cleansing); how his family's 700 year old collection of Jewish manuscripts was stolen by Israeli authorities; how their money was stolen by the Jewish Agency; how their children were stolen and adopted out to Ashkenazi families; and how they feel that they are now in exile in Israel and long to return to Yemen. Then there's CIA man, Wilbur Crane Eveland's account in 'Ropes of Sand' of the covert Zionist bombing campaign in Baghdad which led to the - ahem - emigration of Iraqi Jews. You should also read about the Lavon affair in relation to covert Zionist shenanigans in Egypt. David Hirst's 'The Gun & the Olive Branch' contains an excellent account of what happened to Iraq's Jews and the Lavon affair. Happy reading.

Keith
.. 'heaping coals' is in fact from Romans 12:20 and are words of Paul, but directly connected to those of our Lord Jesus. Apologies

The point I make about ethnically cleansing Gaza, is not a Biblical one. Its a common sense one. I fully realize that on the surface it seems cruel. But if people are given an alternative place of safety and prosperity, then, how is this a bad thing ? Its no worse than the compulsory acquisition of our own property by government for the public good. The Babylonian king had a policy of dispersing his conquered peoples within the Empire. It actually worked. When Ezra and Nehemiah called them back to Jerusalem after Cyrus the Persian took over Babylon, they(jews) had to be dragged kicking and screaming back from their newly established lives.

Arguments such as the 'connection with the history and land' don't wash with governments who have the greater public good in mind, so I also don't see them as relevant.

One problem we have in associating a 'Christian' approach to this problem is that the Israeli's are not Christian. So, we cannot speak to them about 'Jesus said'...therefore you should... kind of thing.

A truly Christian approach does not involve matters of state policy, except that Rulers are recognized as being 'From God' in the sense that they maintain public order. (Romans 13)

The most we (Christians) can do, is speak prophetically, about issues of Justice etc. The problem then becomes 'which' injustice do we speak against ? In reality, we can address all of it, on both sides.
But one man's injustice (compulsory acquisition of land) is another mans 'Promotion of the public good'

If we apply "Do for others as you would have them do for you"
This of course is again 'Christian' rather than Judaistic or Islamic.

Jews still live in the shadow of the Military/Political/Economic "Son of David" type Messiah. Muslims follow militant Mohamed's example.

STREWN...I looked at the synopsis only. I've read most of that stuff in other material such as the documentary hypothesis/form criticism liberal theological works.

Red, Sounding like racism to you doesn't logically make it so. You're obviously quite confused as to the difference between Judaism/Jews and ploitical Zionism/Zionists. Do I need to explain this? You are indeed most coy about Q1, but I think I know the answer. Israelis get that special dispensation because you see them as whites kicking brown butts, right?
Paragraph 2: If Palestinians do have 'a genuine beef' as you've admitted, then logically it needs a remedy. What do you propose? As for Palestinians intending to "drive out the Jews if they had won the war in 1948", you've turned the historical record on its head. Could I suggest you cease your ignorant flow of baseless assertions long enough to read (yes, BOOKS!) some of the most recent scholarship on this issue, say Israeli historian Benny Morris' 'The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited' for example, or 'The Palestinian Catastrophe' by Michael Palumbo. With regard to Palestinian "behaviour" over the years, some of this may not in hindsight have helped their cause, especially given the western media's tendency to report only Israel's side of the story. Yet I'm sure you regret not having had the benefit of hindsight on many an occasion? Two points: a) The Israelis, by dispossessing and occupying the Palestinians, set themselves up for resistance and therefore bear primary responsibility for all acts of violence in and around 'their' patch. It's a phenomenon known as blowback. If the Israelis/you don't like it, then the Israelis/you need to do something about the Palestinian's "genuine beef", and not continue on with their/your winner-take-all bullying; b) To pretend as you do that there is some kind of parity here between the world's 4th most powerful army, backed to the hilt by the US, and a lightly armed guerilla force, and to ignore the fact that Israel's overwhelming monopoly on power is being directed against a largely defenceless people is the height of hypocrisy. Palestinians in Arab countries? Isn't it obvious to ask why they are there? Should they be there? Why aren't they in Palestine? Obviously, not to you.

Strewth

I am not only talking about Jewish Arabs but also about the other Jews from the middle east. In fact I know some of them and their views do not correspond with the views you expressed. Reports and books do not constitute a reasoned arguement inless it can be shown that the authors hade a good knowledge of the subject and are not biased. And we are not talking about Jews or Zionists but of people who live in Israel and probably have been born there.

BOAZ_David

Rabbi Hillel who lived before Jesus and was the dominant Rabbi in Jerusalem summarised Jewish laws as follows:
Anything which is hateful to you you should not do to your neighbour.

Also the statement "Love thy neighbour as thyself" comes from the Old Testament. Jesus was a Jew, you should learn something about Judaism before you comment on it.

If only the suicide bombers had followed that philosophy.

illogic: Love thy neighbour. Only problem is, Israel is not the Palestinian's neighbour, but their occupier, oppressor & jailer.

Strewth

One last question. Do you deny that the Palestinians did not try on several occasions to remove all Jews from Israel regardless of how long they had lived there or where they had come from and that Hamas still considers that there stated aim?

Logic

You and David are on the wrong side of this debate. Slowly, very slowly the Palestinians grievencies, since the departure of that criminal arafat, are begining to reach the concsiousness of westerners.

Not five years ago I shared similar views to both you and David. I like both you and David am a sensitive and logical sort of chap. After much reading, listenig and plain old fashioned 'making up my own mind' I've changed my views. There is noting wrong or anything hateful about that. I think strewth would gain much seeing both you and David or either of you, because of the very forceful arguments
presented in this forum, start the process of sdjusting your stances. There would be great respect gained for both of you. No I don't think I'm lecturing either of you, I'm just expressing sentiments I've found suit me in my ways of dealing with very complex issues. I did notice throughout the debate that both you and David have displayed a grudging respect for Strewth and myself even though our current views are diametrically opposed. It's great no real anomisity has arisen on all sides.

REGARDS KEITH

To Mr Strewth.

Your attitude is plainly anti Jewish. But in order to appeal to the deluded pseudo intellectuals in the west who have embraced anti Israel sentiments as a fashionable cause, you need to pretend that you are not racist. OK, that will work just fine on Sneakypeter, Keith and Arjay, but please don’t try it on me.

As to why I support Israel, because Israelis don’t put bombs on my aeroplanes, they don’t blow themselves up on my trains and buses, they don’t blow my people up in Bali, and they don’t attack my allies. I feel more kinship with Jews who are little threat to my people, than I do with Arabs and Muslims who are quite plainly a very serious threat to my people. And on the principle that “the enemy of your enemy is your friend”, then I am 100% for Israel. And if I consider Arabs and Muslims as my people’s enemies, then this is entirely due to their murderous and hostile behaviour by Arabs towards my own people, most of whom could not give a rat’s arse about the Arab Israeli conflict.

As for me being “ignorant” of Arab intention in 1948, well I was around in 1967 when the Arabs made it absolutely clear that they were going to exterminate Israel and get rid of all the Jews. Had the Arab armies succeeded in beating Israel, they would have massacred most of the Jews, and whatever raped survivors remained, they would have made life so miserable for them that all of them would have asked for asylum in other nations. In other words, the Arabs would have done a lot worse to the Jews than what the Jews are doing to the Arabs right now. So don’t try submitting arguments to me based on some sort of humanitarian logic. Because the only beef that the Palestinians have with the Jews, is that the Jews beat them at their own game.

Logic
I understand your point about the_Rabbi. Jesus summarized the Law for the sake of those who were at the top of the 'religious' pecking order yet who used the "Law" as a kind of social sledge hammer and unbearable burden. I mean.. "you cannot eat an egg laid on the sabbath" or-"You cannot walk in sandals which have a metal buckle" (because that is 'work' :).... the thing Jesus attacked was that they put their 'traditions' before Justice and compassion. "You cleanse he outside of the cup, but inside you are ravenous wolves".

Keith,
I tend to be very compassionate on a human and a Christian level toward genuine Palestinians hard done by in the loss of land. I do understand their loss. But.. (there is always the old 'but' eh :)
Looking at the big picture, I see insoluble problems as follows:

1/ The Palestinians have had ample time to rid themselves of the terrorists and that mentality, yet by and large they have not done so.

2/ No matter which way the cake is cut, pls believe me when I say it will ALways ultimately come down to the issue of the Temple Mount and East Jerusalem. You may as well ask the Israelis to castrate themselves as ask them to forgo this aspect of their history and corporate identity.

3/ The Palestinians have made their choice of Hamas, who's charter they are familiar with "No Israel".

4/ Islam.... the religious/theological concept of 'Islamic' lands (as opposed to 'Land') and the 'Al Aksa Mosque' are not taken into account by many in trying to fathom why the fighting continues. Please dig deeper into this.

CONCLUSION. Due to the deep rooted and unsolvable factors listed above, the truly compassionate approach is to remove all Palestinians, and disperse them to Arab/Muslim countries in small groups so they can be absorbed and embrace new and prosperous lifestyles. The international community should assist with land grants and resettlement assistance.

If Indigenous Aussies took up arms, my thoughts would be similar.

Stewn, Israel occupies the land promised to the descendants of Abraham.

“Israel occupies the land promised to the descendants of Abraham.” States the indefatigable Boaz_david, revealing himself as a fundamental Christian Zionist.

Christian Zionists interpret the Bible literally, many work closely with the Israeli government, religious and secular Jewish Zionist organizations.

Christian Zionism has its roots in Jewish apocalyptic thought and generally holds that Jesus will return to earth before he establishes, literally, a millennial kingdom under his sovereignty.

The fulfillment of prophetic signs have become the central task of Christian interpretation. As Boaz , Coach et al regularly espouse.

They support the maximalist claims of Jewish political Zionism, including Israel’s sovereignty over all of historic Palestine, including Jerusalem. The modern state of Israel, as a fulfillment of prophetic scriptures, is regarded as a necessary stage prior to the second coming of Jesus.

They also have a pessimistic view of history and wait in eager anticipation for the unfolding of a series of wars and tragedies pointing to the return of Jesus.

Christian Zionists believe that the 1948 creation of the state of Israel marked the first event in 'Armageddon' and they are committed to making that doomsday clock tick faster, speeding Christ's return.

This interpretation of the N.T. is as dangerous as any Muslim fundamentalist interpretation of Islam. The difference is that Fundy Christians hold more power than the average Muslim nutter and can use more ‘acceptable’ means for gaining dominion.

All this pain and suffering just because of a particular interpretation of an old book.

illogic: "One last question"? Wimp! Seriously though, your Q is just too vague (not unlike your good self perhaps?). Cite said "several occasions" & "stated aim".
red: It's OK to admit your ignorance as to the difference between Zionism & Judaism or even to admit that because you're a racist you assume everybody else is too. Who am I to judge? Just because you're a racist ignoramus doesn't mean you don't have heaps of sterling qualities in other areas. I note the profound confusion in your second para/'mind': Indonesians, Pakistanis, Palestinians, here a Muslim, there a Muslim, yeeks, better look under my bed! - just one amorphous mass, right? Homo islamicus. In exactly the same way I suppose as Croats, Swedes, Greeks, English & Russians are all really one and the same,think the same and behave the same (even Jewish Israelis, 60% of whom are ethnically Arabs). Sort of homo redneckius. And you were around in 67, eh, in time for what was shaping up in your 'mind' as Holocaust 2? Curious then that Israeli leaders weren't so concerned. Rabin: "Nasser didn't want war...and we knew it." Eshkol: "The Egyptian layout in Sinai...militarily defensive." Begin: "We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack [Nasser]". "The only beef that the Palestinians have with the Jews, is that the Jews beat them at their own game." Hang on. Didn't you say earlier that the Palestinians had a "genuine beef"? Goodness, you're one confused puppy, aren't you? Red, why not just admit it - history and world affairs is just not your cup of beef. Still and all, you're obviously a whizz on things that go KABOOM!

The presumption that everybody is a racist is a pretty safe bet, Mr Strewth. Because the desire to live among people who you feel safe with, because you regard them as your own kith and kin, is a cultural universal. The only real declared “anti racists” are young western pseudo intellectuals who have been conditioned by their preacher teachers to regard racism as absolutely awful.

Most of them grow out of that condition, sooner or later, mainly by coming into contact with people from other cultures with whom they feel threatened. The ones who never grow out of it live in privileged, leafy suburbs behind economic fences higher than the Berlin Wall. The only minorities they see are their kid’s nannies, the Chinese who wash their cars, and the manual labourers who keep their swimming pool and jacuzzi clean.

I have absolutely no idea where you got those idiotic quotes from. But I was in high school in 1967, and the Arabs were openly declaring their intention of wiping Israel off the map. They were also bragging about how they were so militarily strong that the Israelis could not possibly beat them when they attacked. Newspapers were publishing the relative strengths of the Israeli, Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi, and Jordanian armed forces and Israel was hopelessly outnumbered.

Everybody in the world was holding their breath because they knew what was coming, that the Arabs would attack in only a few days, and Israel was going to be wiped out. But the Israelis beat them to the punch and showed the world what intelligent people can do against dimwits. If you are claiming that the Arabs only wanted peace, and were only deploying their armies defensively, then I am laughing at that one.

Keith

Thank you for your kind comments.

We are not really on different sides. You appear to be religious. I am not. But these are not different sides.

I too have always had sentiments for the Palestinians. I too have always objected to the settlers. I never liked them and never will. But the Jews did originally arrive peacefully into Irael and bought land there. Some transferred there from other Arab lands. It was wrong for the settlers to do what they did. It was equally wrong for the Egyptians Iraqis and Iranians to behave the way they did to the descendents of ancient Christian and Jewish communities.

Much of what was done in the immediate post war years from both sides is regretable. But whole generations of three faiths were born there and have equal rights to live there and within their own traditions.

The Israelis claim that if the Palestinians stop bombing them and recognize their claims they will stop their attacks. It is time for the Palestinians to give this a go.

Regarding Strewth I bear him no malice but I don't now what to make of him.

"Idiotic quotes", eh? Here's where I got them:-
Quote 1: Le Monde 28/2/68
Quote 2: Yediot Ahronot 16/10/67
Quote 3: New York Times 21/9/82
And here are some more "idiotic quotes" from Dr (formerly General in 67 war) M Peled: "The thesis that in June 67 Israel faced a danger of annihilation and that the state of Israel was fighting for its physical survival is a tale which was born and elaborated only after the war" & "In May 67 there was no danger of annihilation to Israel: The Egyptians concentrated 80,000 soldiers, while we mobilized against them hundreds of thousands of men." (Haaretz 19/3/72)
But why do I waste my time? You wouldn't have a clue who Rabin, Eshkol, Begin or Peled where, would you? Manuel, you know nothing!

Logic

No I'm not religious.

'The Israelis claim that if the Palestinians stop bombing them and recognize their claims they will stop their attacks. It is time for the Palestinians to give this a go.'

I have some little difficulty with this statement.

The greatest cause of conflict at the moment is the not the threat from Hamas, terrorists or even the Palestinian gunmen. Other things among them the intended furthur annexation of Palestinian lands, the Israeli's difficulty in accepting the political will of the Palestinians and that monstrous bloody wall cause greater angst and fear than the ineffective resistance and retaliation to the Israeli manipulations and occupations.

Sometime take a look at the map of what the Israeli's offer the Palestinians as their homelands. It's laughable.

I like Strawn have great difficulty with all who lay the blame, for the ongoing crisis in Palestine, only at the feet of the Palestinians. I get particularly upset with people who cite, as rights to ownership of the land, a dubious sources especially when that source relies on the reported word of a biased religious God.

illogic: Your propagandist tripe just rolls on regardless, doesn't it?
a)"Always objected to the settlers"? Words are cheap. What concrete steps have you taken to prevent Israel's creeping annexation of the West Bank? None, I'd say.
b)"Jews did arrive peacefully"? You mean Zionists, not Jews. Under the protection of British guns until such times as they had built up their own military force which was then used against the British and the Palestinians.
c)Re Jewish Arabs, you continue to ignore the data I've provided & recycle the same old nonsense.
d)If -if- you're sincere about "equal rights" for all, then the Palestinian refugees should be able to return to their homes and lands in Israel improper, the Israeli occupation should be lifted and all Israeli apartheid legislation should be repealed.
e)Palestinian violence has always been a mere pinprick compared to what the Israelis have dished out and continue to dish out.
Your attempts to sound reasonable, while advocating for dispossession & occupation, are a sham. Abba Eban once said that propaganda is the art of persuading others of what one does not believe oneself. If you do in fact believe your own propaganda, then you're deluded.

To Mr Strewth.

Oh, thank you, thank you, for your last post.

I was not born until well after WW2, but if you had claimed that you had “quotes” which clearly displayed that both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan only wanted peace, and that they were forced to defend themselves against allied aggression, I would definitely give those quotes the hairy eyeball. Even though I only have history books to guide me as to what really happened in 1939. But your problem was that I was around at the time of the 1967 Six Day War, and I know for a fact that your assertion that the Arabs were only defending themselves against Israeli aggression, is dancing with the fairies stuff.

It is so preposterous, that it rates alongside the 60% of Muslims in Pakistan and Jordan who claim that Muslims had nothing at all to do with 9/11.

As to why you should bother “wasting your time with me?” Well, that is a good question. Because if you are going to present fantasy and wishful thinking as fact, then I am just going to sit back here and show everybody what a fool you are. You are not going to impress anybody, or do your cause any good, if you come up with boners like that one. But you sure as hell help my case. Because any young person who knows anything about the 1967 war, and who reads your assertion, must be thinking that if that is the standard of debate from pro terrorist side, then the Israelis must be right after all.

But please, don’t stop! I’ll bet that your next assertion is that the Arabs only want to create a multicultural paradise in the Holy Land, where both Islamic and Jewish law both defined the culture and the laws. And when that happy day happened, both Arab and Jew were going to sit around the campfire singing KUMBAYA and living happily ever after.

Kevin you say "I like Strawn..."
Is that a Freudian slip - short for Straw Man?

Red, Self-described racist, self-demonstrated ingnoramus, now in denial. I'm afraid your prognosis is not good.

This is "bovver boots" Horus to "Puss n Boots" Strewth.
As a disinterested observer I need to tell you, your
proboscis is not looking too good either (must be all the head shots Red's been landing!)

Please be fair to Strewth. Argue with his comments or ignore him but stop the insults!

We do not know who he is but he is possibly a Muslim (perhaps a Palestinian) who has suffered. His views which are often extreme, may well be as a result of hurt. His perspective is from his own experience as is mine.

For the record I will state my own background. I am descended from Jews who made their home in this land of ours over 100 years ago. My faith is a sort of agonsticism based on Anglo Jewish liberal teachings. I visited Israel only once for an enjoyable two weeks and ate a lot in Arab restaurants and cafes where I enjoyed the company of those wonderful people.

While in Israel I felt both a stranger and a kinsman, as do other Australians who travel to UK Italy Greece Lebanon etc. My family in Australia have not been subject to anti-semitism but we know that it can exist and hate and fear all racial intolerence. The Cronulla riots were odious to us particularly the pictures of so called Australian patriots who wrapped themselves in flags.

I am extremely fortunate in my background, others are not so well favoured. I do not think that I have abused you Strewth if so it was unintentional and I apologise.