On the eve of the AFL grand final there has been released an external review commissioned by the Hawthorn Football Club into racism within the club. According to Eddie Betts a renowned indigenous footballer himself, who was subjected to racial taunts and abuse throughout his career, that these explosive claims of racism and victimisation by multiple indigenous players at Hawthorn is not surprising at all.

As the title suggests 'Racism in Australia', football with a very high proportion of indigenous players is only one area where racism easily raises its ugly head. The broader question here is despite politicians and others trumpeting the success of 'Multiculturalism' in Australia, and there is no doubt it has been successful. To what degree do non-whites suffer racism in this country today. From 1788 onwards the white Christian European invaders felt with their ethnically and culturally superiority they had a God given right to discriminate and take over the non-white peoples, resources and cultures. Over time with the migration of other non-whites, racism has grown to cover many more Australians. A Western Sydney University Survey "Challenging Racism Project 2015-16 National Survey" highlighted many interesting facts about Australian racism, which are still evident today.

Briefly;

Australians holding 'Negative' views towards out groups within society;

Towards Anglo-Saxons.. Australian males 3.2% Australian women 2.7%
Towards Aboriginals... Australian males 10.9% Australian women 9.7%
Towards Muslim Aust... Australian males 34.0% Australian women 29.2%
Towards Refugees...... Australian males 19.6% Australian women 19.1%
Towards Middle East... Australian males 23.9% Australian women 20.9%
Towards Africans...... Australian males 18.1% Australian women 14.1%
Towards Asians........ Australian males 7.0% Australian women 7.0%

There is much more detail at the following link;

http://www.westernsydney.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/1202226/Challenging_Racism_Report_3.pdf

One can’t be racist to Muslims, per se, as Muslim describes a person of a particular religion and not a ‘race’.

Paul.
I have never analysed who or what race or group fits with me. I usually say good day to most folk I come across and respond in accordance to their reply. In most cases the response is friendly.
I find people interesting and have let a working life that has taken me into some widely scattered locations over many years and an affable approach to people is an asset no doubt.
Some of these have been as far afield as the Amazon, Mexico, Argentina et al and much else in that location. Spent time working in the Philipines, business in Canada and the USA and most of Oz to name a few.
I have had folk point guns at me on a few occasions but generally have ended up in friendly chat and sometimes a meal in virtual strangers homes.
Some outcomes were humorous such as a stoned cabby in Jamaica who I coaxed to a stop. Helped him into the back seat and drove myself the rest of the way to my hotel with him singing on the back seat. I put some money in his hand to pay for the music when I parked up and left him to it.
Life is all about people not places, the richer the mix, the richer your own life
Take it easy.
SD

Hi Paul,

Thank You for raising this topic for discussion.
Hopefully we'll be able to keep things on an even keel.
Thanks also to Shaggy Dog, and his positive attitude.
I listened to the news this evening and I trust that
investigations into the various football clubs will
produce some positive outcomes and actions.

Hatred does continue at disturbing levels in Australia.
We're all seen it on television and read about it. Muslims
have been called "terrorists", they've been assaulted on
public transport, in cafes "Lets rip it off her head."
We've seen a member of parliament wear a hijab into the
Senate. The hatred is there.

It has not gone away.

While they are about it the football club(s) might look at the violence on the field some of which if done elsewhere would lead to fines or doing time.

What will Paul do if bleating racism will be no longer fashionable ?

More fake concern by the lovers of big government.

Indyvidual

The obsession with race will always be "fashionable" as long as the divisive lunatic left draws breath; race is essential to identify politics. These nutters now have the race-based Voice to make them even more nutty. They are also helped in their campaign by the appalling Australian main stream media, constantly promoting fear, unrest and scandal.

In the latest case, I believe that the accused 'racists' might have been trying to free players from the traditional - and well recognised - clinging of extended 'family' to people of indigenous background who have been successful in the wider community: the 'what's yours is mine' syndrome. This has always been debilitating, not just for sports people, but for anyone of indigenous heritage who has made good. The mob sticks like leeches.

The incitement of a player to have his girlfriend abort is unacceptable, but that accusation might be as untrue as well. And, we all know the Left's penchant for prejudging guilty - guilty until proven innocent and, if proved innocent, it is only because of a 'technicality'.

I note that the gutter press, as usual, has brought out it's favourite race weapon, Eddy Betts, to pour petrol on the fire, and publicise his book.

We should remember that this is so far just gossiping about accusations by unnamed former players, in a report that has not been released. – not proven facts; it's just the ABC News and Current Affairs, who are reporting the accusations as fact.

By my count there were 21 aboriginal players at Hawthorn during the period in question. There might have been more since oftentimes players join a club but never make it near the top echelon of players.

Of those, 3 (4 if you count Riolli) are making complaints. All three failed to make it to the big show calling into question whether they might have other reasons for being down on the club.

Perhaps there was racism. Perhaps officials lack some level of diplomacy in handling the fragile sensibilities of aboriginal players.

I'll await the full report before making a judgement. (Note: Hawthorn beat the Swans in a GF so I have no love for the club).

From Paul's survey:

"'Negative' views ". Negative views aren't the same as racist views even though those who did the survey pretended otherwise.

"[Negative views] Towards Muslim Aust... Australian males 34.0% Australian women 29.2% "

When did 'Muslim' become a race? As an aside, 20 women have died in Iran protesting the rules around wearing head scarves. I wonder why some hold "negative views" toward Muslims?

"[Negative views] Towards Refugees...... Australian males 19.6% Australian women 19.1%"

When did refugees become a race?

"[Negative views]Towards Middle East... Australian males 23.9% Australian women 20.9%"

Middle east is a region not a race. It hold several races.

When you can't find evidence of racism, make it up.

Why do some people at the mere mention of racism go into
denial? Declaring it to be "gossip" and a "fashionable"
thing to do. As if all the people who have come forward
don't matter at all. This has been going on for quite
some time, from 2005 - 2021. Finally the Australian Football
League has called for an inquiry into the AFL amid a furore
over allegations at the Hawthorn Football Club.

The allegations have emerged from a review that's been done
of Hawthorn's treatment of Indigenous players which is
about to be released. Collingwood has also found evidence of
"systemic racism." Adam Goodes resigned a few years back due
to this very cause.

When more than one person comes forward - they need to be
heard. Denial does not help anyone. BTW - I am a Hawthorn
supporter. My family supports Collingwood.

http://bbc.com/news/world-australia-62991661

One of the reasons why the MSM beats up racism, identity politics, doom and gloom, and anything divisive, is that they are desperate to attract attention with inflammatory nonsense because they are dying. The MSM is already dead to people under 30: they barely know that it exists. It has been predicted by various commentators that the MSM will go bankrupt and disappear, with social media and the internet in general replacing it entirely. Everyone will able to contribute.

The MSM, just like politicians, can no longer be taken seriously, whether it be left of right.

Why do some people at the mere mention of racism immediately accept it as a proven fact?

Every accusation, presumption, assumption, accusation is treated as an established fact which it is forbidden to question. Waiting on an in-depth report on the accusations isn't necessary. After all, who ever heard of an accusation of racism ever been shown to be false? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jussie_Smollett_hate_crime_hoax)

People just fall into line with whatever the MSM tells them to think.

In a world which demands knee-jerk reactions, waiting for all the facts is unnecessary and probably racist.

mhaze,

Talking about racism?

The following article is worth a read:

http://abc.net.au/news/2022-09-18/queen-death-indigenous-australia-colonisation-empire/101445508

I have to confess that watching the indigenous protests on TV
I thought their behaviour was vile. And I was shocked by what
they did. I thought that they could have done things in a
more civilized way. But after reading Stan Grant's article
I realized that I was reacting like a white person and had
not experienced what he had in his lifetime. I did not
understand nor see things from an indigenous point of view.

The article is worth a read and provides a different perspective.

mhaze,

They accept it because that is what fits their agenda, in the same way Albanese believes it is OK for King Charles to make political statements with which he, Albanese, agrees. If the King said that the climate emergency hoax was rubbish, Albanese would tut tut and say the monarch has no business expressing such opinions.

The lefty-West has a self-loathing culture. It takes great delight in white-anting the West. However, if the proportion of misery-gutses to the total of posters on OLO is replicated in the real world, things might turn out OK.

people at the mere mention of racism go into
denial?
Foxy,
Is it really denial or just pointing out the frivolity that is being called racist by racists ?
When I told an indigenous woman that i thought an Australian indigenous celebrity was racist in my opinion she was taken aback & exclaimed "but, he is black ?"
mHaze & ttbn are right on the mark !
Aborigines have been conditioned from childhood to believe only white people can be racist !
This is the legacy of Half-baked halfwit Academia in Australia.

Indyvidual,

Read the link I gave from Stan Grant's perspective.
As white people we have not experienced in most
cases at least - what he has lived through. And
if we had then we could speak on their behalf.
Until then it's best to shut up.

Foxy
To have an Irish name was enough to experience racism in Australia .
To be called a dog was a common occurrence and to have a fist fight on the way home from school was also common.
‘No Irish Need Apply was often seen on factory gates and adds in the papers for jobs often carried the tag “Protestants Only” which meant ‘No Irish’ in effect.

We survived and became handy with the fists, to balance things out though some of my best mates were ‘Prodos’, and were English and Scots.

Welcome to the Club!

Foxy,
Just read Stan Grants story.
I am a non indigenous person who was taken from his parents at a very early age and placed in an institution as a Ward of the State where I remained until leaving at age 15 moving interstate from WA to Sydney where I took up residence in a boarding house and effectively found my own way from there. I did have employment lined up but did not know anyone in Sydney.
I was really scratching moneywise for the first few years but the freedom I had as compared to the institutional life I came from was worth it. A cheap tram ticket was all I needed.
No comparison to the hardships others have encountered but I am a bit of a pragmatist and get on with what it is I have to deal with. Looking back can be of benefit but too much of it and you will miss the opportunities that lie ahead.
Take it easy.
SD

foxy.
re Stan Grant, I maintain that two wrongs don't make a right !

Is Mise

You know quite well that the Irish are not a race, no matter how badly they were treated, usually by fellow Caucasians.

There are only 4 races: Caucasian, Mongoloid, Negroid and Australoid. Only members of the last 3 races could be accused of racism against Irish people. I don’t think that you would have come into contact with many of those in your school days.

A course in Ethnoscience would be handy for people wanting to talk about race and racism, but I don't think it has been available since the 1980s. But if it was, it would put a stop to the ignorant drivel about race that abounds here and in the media.

ttbn,
I use the term ‘racism’ with reservations, in modern parlance the Irish are a race, however there is only one race, the Human race ,as the ones you cite can breed with each other then they are one race, although it is inadvisable for some of them to breed.

Hi Paul1405,
"Australians holding 'Negative' views towards out groups within society"

Why would you think that all Australians would hold a 100% positive view of these sub-groups?
And where does personal preference fit in?

The worlds so crazy these days that a man will be accused of being fat-phobic or trans-phobic are they aren't open to dating these people.
Essentially, they've made up words to make everyone able to claim victimhood and words that can make anyone a perpetrator and worthy or depression.

Think of the word 'colonist' bandied about
- Yet how many of us are actually guilty of colonising anyone's country?
I for one was born here, as were many who came before me.

Why would you assumme that human beings wouldn't hold a personal preference, and that they wouldn't like some races more than others?
You can't socially engineer the things that make people human out of humans.

I'm not obliged to love and celebrate foreigners, and why would I when I see the nation going down the toilet.

If you want an example of the nation going down toilet, Albo is PM, Wong is foreign minister.
If that's not as good an example as any and where we're at, then I don't know what is.

I think this is a bit of a beatup honestly, to create a picture of racism where considerations of life experience and personal preference play a part in one's feelings towards others.
Even the news we watch is guilty of cultivating those feelings and preferences based on the nationalities of who might be causing trouble at any given time.
- It would be stranger and more concerning if Australians views were all 100% positive.

Is Mise

Being one of the smarter posters here, you also know about manipulation of language, changing the meanings of words to suit the objectives of people who hate our culture. You call it "modern parlance", but it is a weaponisation of language to infer that nationality - and religion in the case of Islam - can be equated to race. The enemies of our culture do it with everything else, too.

Still, people will continue to think, do and say what they have always thought, done and said from a certain age; we all become set in ways and beliefs on pretty much everything. That age varies from 'expert' to 'expert', but it is generally in the mid-twenties to mid-thirties. In my 80th year I'm hardly likely to change now, and I don't think that there are many posters here are still in their twenties or thirties.

I'm beginning to wonder why we keep on with this stuff. It doesn't make a scrap of difference, and we know what everyone is going to say about all subjects before they post.

Racism does occur, in all races, all over the world, not just in Australia, and not just by white people. It always will, and it's pathetic that virtue-signallers think that harping on it, complaining about it, and accusing other people of being racists will make a damn of difference. It is more pathetic that some people allow themselves to be silenced by thugs posing as 'nice' people.

The word "racism" has broadened to encapsulate more than ethnicity, for some claim a narrow definition of ethnic grouping only. Thus the comment; "One can’t be racist to Muslims, per se, as Muslim describes a person of a particular religion and not a ‘race’." In the narrow sense of meaning that is true, but with the dynamics of language words change meaning over time, and 'racism" is such a word. Maybe some would prefer the word "vilify" as an alternative description of negative reactions towards others based on difference.

Hi Foxy,

'I have to confess that watching the indigenous protests on TV
I thought their behaviour was vile. And I was shocked by what
they did." That is understandable from us, and I'll include myself in that, until we realise we have never "walked in their shoes".

"But after reading Stan Grant's article I realized that I was reacting like a white person and had not experienced what he had in his lifetime. I did not understand nor see things from an indigenous point of view." Well said.

In my family I tend to be the "angry" one on matters of injustice, very black and white. The death of Elizabeth Windsor has been a topic of discussion, within. The younger members being rather blase about it all. The wife however was saddened by her death, for the simple reason she is saddened by all deaths of people. My point here is sometimes we look at things with a different perspective to others

First the Guilt Industry, now the racism Industry ! What's in the pipeline for the next ?

Indy,
Such industries are of little interest to me. Watching the sun rise over the bay whilst I made myself a mug of tea is a good enough start to the day.
A bit of writing today maybe as I am being dunned to complete some promised work.
It would appear many folk cannot function without some drama or dispute in their lives. Maybe they are dissatisfied with their own. Could be a serve of hostility is what they need, a spice of some sort.
Anyway you all have a good one.
Take it easy.
SD

Indyvidual

You’d be better served to understand the deep trauma of the old mate who lives on a hill top among the gold tops at Nimbin, 14.05klm from the Green Slime Capital of Australia, Byron Bay, with its own beacon of failure, a permanent presence of the Police riot squad!

I think it’s time I gently suggest, to polish up on analytical theory of psychoanalysis and psychotherapy, which will greatly help in your understanding of (should we be nice and call him Paul, for the sake of the session), outcomes associated with his inferiority complexes and his many other complex constellations?

Tch Tch. Naughty Dan.

Thanks Shaggy Dog, Paul, Is Mise, and everyone else,
for your comments. The more I read, and see, the more
I realize how little I know. I guess we all have our stories
and experiences. And as far as our Indigenous people are
concerned I'm seeing that I still have so much more to
understand.

George Orwell wrote in "1984"- "Who controls the past controls
the future. Who controls the present controls the past."

Hopefully, we as Australians all, will be able to work together
towards achieving equality and wealth for us all to share in
this best country in the world.

In the meantime I've been given a new book to read.
"The Story of Russia." by Orlando Figes. I am hoping that
it will help me understand the current events of what's going
on there.

Again Thanks for sharing your experiences and thoughts.
All these recent events are doing my head in.

The "dynamics of language". What a load of rubbish, pinched from the ravings of the leftovers of a group that has been concentrating on bringing down the Western democratic system since the 1960's. Language isn't dynamic; it is manufactured by people, and used as a weapon. The manufacturing of goods in Australia has been replaced by the manufacturing of non-existent problems (racism, man-made climate change, 'deadly' pandemics no worse than the common flu, false meanings for established language). Add your own examples, if you are not one of the suckers who have fallen for the tricks of activists intent on enslaving you, mind and body.

Why did these 'researchers' try to equate having 'negative views' with being racist? Because they had an agenda (ie find as much racism as possible) and just looking at actual racism didn't yield the required numbers.

So, to fool those anxious to be fooled, they create a new paradigm and pretend one equals t'other.

I have negative views about the Han Chinese because of their treatment toward the Uyghur. How that makes me racist is something only those who fall for this rubbish would explain.

Paul has negative views toward the British. Racist?

Foxy has negative views toward Israel. Racist?

As to Foxy's Grant article....just how the experiences of his ancestors advances the enquiry into Hawthorn is something only those of a certain ilk would think.

Grant presumably was raised in some deprivation. But this nation gave him the opportunity to become a millionaire, gave him the opportunity to have the career he sought, gave him the opportunity to have a megaphone vastly exceeding that of ordinary Australians. How that shows the nation is racist is something only those who just want to shout racism at every opportunity to show their supposed virtue would assert.

mhaze,

A few corrections:

Foxy is not against Israel. She is against the government
policies that treat Palestinians so cruelly.

As for Stan Grant and how much this country did for
him? Stan Grant achieved what he did through sheer talent,
hard work, belief in himself, in his strength, his resilience,
and his determination and refusal to be what others said he
was. People that tried to take everything away from him.
And Bravo for him that he did it!

As he's stated, " I learned at school the hard lesson of life.
I lived in a world where white lives mattered and I was not
white."

"White was normal and I wasn't normal."

"I was about 15 years old when we moved to Canberra, and my sister
and I were the only Aboriginal kids in the school. For a
moment I thought I belonged. I was wrong."

None of us can truly understand what someone else has gone
through if we too have not walked in their shoes or experienced
what they have. All we can do is try to help and understand
their pain.

Foxy,
I think pain is an overused word to describe what many folk have been through.
Some adversity in early life can be an asset in later years, the old adage "if it doesn't kill you it can only make you stronger" has some truth in it.
Life is not a game of equal chances, it is more about what you make of that which is served up to you.
Stan G obviously made the most of what he was served up, good on him and others like him but recognizing the fact this can be done in Oz with a dint of hard work, application, and a bit of luck, is the fortune of living in such a country.
We do, most of us anyway, get served up a variable but goodly sized serve of opportunity in Oz. We can use it or waste it. It is our choice.
Take it easy.
SD

Hi SD,

We all have stories to tell and experiences to share.
Some have had it harder than others. And I think it
only fair that we do try to show empathy to those who
are still doing it tough today. The following link might
be appropriate on Stan Grant:

http://abc.net.au/news/2020-07-13/stan-grant-black-lives-matter-four-corners/12429206?nw=O8,r=HtmlFragment

"Foxy is not against Israel. She is against the government
policies that treat Palestinians so cruelly."

I didn't say you were against, I said you had negative views of Israel.

Thanks for confirming it and therefore for confirming my point about having negative views isn't the same as being racist.

I suspect you won't understand that.

Foxy,
Some will always do it harder than others, that is life. Empathy and understanding is a good thing but life is far from a level playing field and the players are a real mixed bag in attitude and ability which makes comparisons difficult as many are happy where they are in a situation far from satisfactory and tolerable to ourselves.
Trying to bring folk "up" to ones own level is fraught as they may be a damn side happier and more effective just where they are. Who is really in any position to judge without knowing the individuals true thinking.
Oft times the spoken word and the true thoughts are poles apart, as are the smiles that go with it.
Take it easy.
SD

George Floyd was a career criminal and drug dealer trying to resist arrest after committing another crime. While what happened to him was a miscarriage of justice, the world is better without him.

If this reprobate was your poster boy then there is something wrong with the Black Olives Matter movement. Yet every left whinger extolls his virtues as though he was another mother Teresa.

The reporter asking questions at the end of the clip could be Paul1405 ,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p7M14qGSak

To be logical as there is only one race, homo sapiens, the social construct ‘racism’ has nowt to do with race.

Another puerile pile of dung from the village idiot.

Firstly the question is so vague as to be almost meaningless. Having a "negative view of:" could be of some individuals or an entire ethnic group and does not take any effort to determine the nature or cause of these feelings.

That Muslims have tried to bomb or kill Australians, had forced marriages and FGM might be the source of negative views as would the rampages of Sudanese gangs in Melbourne or the many 1000s of economic migrants coming to Aus posing as refugees to bludge off taxpayers.

Pointedly, these fwits have deliberately left off Jews as they are not worth their protection

Just for the Village Nazi,

100% of old white Aryan males don't just have negative views towards Jews, they down right hate them. Isn't that so Shonky!

mhaze,

What you said was:

"Foxy has negative view towards Israel. Racist?"

And then you repeated that : "Foxy has negative views
of Israel."

I corrected you by pointing out that it is the government
policies and the treatment of Palestinians that I have
negative views of - not the country itself. There is a
difference.

Foxy, trying had to square the circle, wrote: "There is a
difference [between Israel the country and Israel's government]."

Well no, there isn't. Those claims MAY hold some weight in a non-democratic nation. It is possible to separate the Russian people from the Russian government since the people have no say in the government and no ability to influence the government.

Israel's government is, on the other hand, a direct reflection of the Israeli people who constantly elect people and governments who support and continue Israel's policies vis a vis the so-called Palestinians.

Therefore you trying to separate the two is invalid. Therefore it remains true that you have 'negative views' toward Israel, even though those aren't racist views.

Which, of course, my original point. Her endeth the lesson.

mhaze,

The treatment of Palestinians in Israel has been
condemned world wide by many sources, and groups, including
from activists within Israel and worldwide. Young Jewish
generations often disassociate themselves from Israel
and the government's behaviour. The fact that Palestinians
are ruled by military law remains - whether you admit it or not.
I will continue to object to those policies, as will
many others both in Israel and world wide. And as long as these
policies remain in place - there will never be an end to the
conflict.

Foxy,

All that is beside the point. You keep admitting that you have negative views of Israel , which according to the survey Paul relied on, makes you a racist.

Since, obviously, you are not a racist, that means that the equating of negative views to racism is invalid. Its really not all that complicated.

Which returns us to my original point - why did these 'researchers' make that equivalence? Answer - because the level of real racism in Australia isn't as high as they like to suggest and they needed to fudge the results.

mhaze,

Perhaps -
Both of us believe that we're on a bold journey of lofty ascents
when we may be in fact sitting on simulators of our own making -
more alike than we realize.

Perhaps if it ever comes to the crunch the Racial Discrimination Act will be declared invalid as it is based on the false assumption that there is more than one race of humans.

mhaze.

If Muslims are not technically a race then neither are Jews. People originating from that area of the world are racially classed as Semites and that refers to both Jews and Arabs.

If Foxy criticises Israel for political reasons that doesn't make her an anti-Semite or racist in the same was that if I speak out against the ill-treatment of the Rohingya in Burma it doesn't make me an anti-Buddhist or an anti-Christian in the case of the Holocaust.

rache,

"If Foxy criticises Israel for political reasons that doesn't make her an anti-Semite or racist in the same was that if I speak out against the ill-treatment of the Rohingya in Burma it doesn't make me an anti-Buddhist or an anti-Christian in the case of the Holocaust."

My point exactly.

Please explain it to Foxy.

Hi rache,

Thank You - but with mhaze - there's no point in explaining
anything to him. He is fully aware of the arguments we're making.
He just likes to detract.

One of the most important things to
do is to keep cutting deliberately through political lines and
barriers and emphasizing the fact that these are largely
fabrications and that there is another dimension - a genuine
reality opposed to the fiction of politics.

My point was that having negative views of this or that group is NOT the same as being racist toward that group.

Foxy thinks I'm wrong.

Therefore she clearly believes that having negative views or this or that group IS the same as being racist toward that group.

A stance clearly arrived at through personal experience.

mhaze,

I take people as I find them. I don't have negative
feelings towards any group - because that does not allow
for individual differences. And people are not the same
or think the same no matter which so called group they may
belong to. As for my own personal experiences and what I
went through as a child of refugees in this country. Perhaps
you'll buy my book when its published? I'm sure you would
enjoy reading it. All of us have stories to tell. I'd love
to know where you fit in (or don't). It may explain a
great deal.

Foxy,
Looking forward to reading your book.
I should be working now, writing, but it is too nice a day to be inside working. Just parking up for a mug of tea before I go outside again and continue with gardening chores. Interesting reading OLO again, all the different viewpoints are fascinating to say the least.
I wish I had picked up a language along the way, a bit of this and that due to my work travels but never fluent enough to have a conversation.
Take it easy.
SD

Paulnazi,

As all Greens hate Jews I guess that that makes them Aryan by your definition.

Foxy,

The disclaimer that being against the policies of Israel is not in itself racist is a half-truth frequently used as a fig leaf by people that are otherwise clearly racist against Jews.

The acid test for this was laid down by the UN as to whether the person using this applied the same scrutiny to other governments that behaved as badly or worse than Israel. So far I have yet to see you criticise any of the homicidal actions taken by Hamas or Fatah and can only conclude that this is your fig leaf for your racism.

Hi SD,

Online opinion is an interesting place thanks to
the wide variety of people taking part and
expressing different views. Of course we all have
our favourite posters - whose opinions each of us
value more than those of others. Never the less -
it's a great place to share views. Enjoy your cuppa.

shadowminister,

I don't think that you have any credibility in
the views you express. You've been extremely one-eyed
on this forum. Your posting record speaks for itself.
When you criticize the sides that you support just
once on this forum - then I shall take what you
say more seriously.

Foxy,

Pot/kettle. You are universally one-eyed and biased and share the same level of credibility or lower.

I struggle to understand why those on the left of politics are so anti-semitic.

shadowminister,

I can't understand why you are so supportive of
Israel's government policies. And to be against
their policies does not make me anti-Semitic.
The same as being against Hitler's policies did not
make me anti German or being against the policies of
the Soviet Regime does not make me anti-Russian.

Foxy,

As I mentioned before, being critical of Israel does not per se make you racist, however, at the same time being completely silent on the murderous Hamas and Fatah does.

shadowminister,

You really are not know very knowledgeable on the subject
at all. Do try to get better informed, then we can continue
this conversation.

Foxy,

Clearly, I am more knowledgeable than you. I am simply using a definition developed at the UN.

Apparently, behaviour that you find acceptable is the bounty paid to Palestinians by their government for killing Jews (incl women and children), throwing gays off buildings and summarily executing "collaborators" who coincidently are political opponents.

shadowminister,

You've made your positions quite clear on the subject
over which I have no control. I have made my positions
quite clear as well. Enjoy your day.

Once the racists stop bleating racism the situation will improve !

I think we are all aware that not all persons are the same.
Skin colour, features, stature, accent when speaking, and many other characteristics, can all vary.
This is because sections of our human race evolved and developed separately, in different parts of the world.
One would need to be blind or stupid not to notice these differences.
Evolving separately gave rise to useful variations in the 'gene pool'.
That can definitely be an advantage for any 'race' which has been interbreeding for thousands of years.

To comment on these differences is not necessarily 'racist'.
Only when remarks are derogatory, or aimed at causing harm or disadvantage to another person, should they be classed as 'racist'?
To shout 'RACISM' when someone comments innocently on a person's accent is a total over-reaction.
Unfortunately, it seems to be becoming fashionable these days to deride any reference to racial difference.
What we really need is a greater amount of friendly discussion about these things.
And an acknowledgement by all persons that we benefit greatly from genetic difference.

Ipso Fatso,

Well said ! Criticism for wrong-doing of a person has nothing, zilch bugger-all to do with racism yet it is the most lunged-at opportunistic exploited excuse by the racists to bleat racism !

I watched Q and A last night and found it embarrassing
to listen to some of the panelists - who had no idea
on what they were commenting - especially Alan Jones
on the Voice to Parliament where he was completely
miss-informed.

I couldn't help wondering why he was invited on the show
in the first place. He's been kicked off so many programs.
And is no longer credible.

A questionable bloke from Parramatta
A loud-mouthed shock jock once on air
Spouting things that just aren't true
Why folks is this bloke still here?

I guess folks no longer care.

There's an email circulating about Stan Grant, not flattering at all. Looks like it was written by someone who knows him quite well !

indyvidual,

There's lots of trolls and scamers out there.
We've been warned about them to be careful.

Stan Grant is one of Australia's most respected
and awarded journalists with more than 30 years
experience on radio and television news and
current affairs. He has a very strong reputation
for independence and integrity and has interviewed
international politicians and business leaders
including our own Prime Ministers and senior ministers.

There's more at:

http://abc.net.au/news/stan-grant/8195640

Foxy,
I have watched him many times & have come to the conclusion that in his & his peers circles one can look a gift horse in the mouth !

I listened to ABC Radio earlier today (no choice of Radio) which had an American sounding host by the name of Beverley. This Beverley interviewed what was someone claiming or indeed was an Aborigine who said that he experienced racism when this Beverley interrupted with the quip "in other words, white people".
is this what "Our ABC" condones ? Imagine if a non-indigenous called in about experiencing racism & a white Radio host said "in other words. black people" !
I think it's time for the ABC hierarchy to pull their fingers out & lay down some rules ! That former Womens Weekly sheilah needs to vacate her position & let someone with integrity head the show ! At least give this Beverly notice !

Foxy,

Your position is very clear, you happily turn a blind eye to the atrocities committed by Palestinians while criticising Israel for defending itself against these atrocities.

shadowminister,

How wrong you are.

The appalling acts of Palestinians and Arab terrorism
are not ignored by me. Their cruelty and continual murder
are facts. But we need to ask Why?

The land must be shared , people must be treated equally.
It is possible if the will is there. If the Diaspora Jews
brought pressure to bear on the Israeli government,
attitudes could change . Jews in Europe and America are
beginning to realize what is going on. Slowly, too slowly
the tide is turning. Israel must change, or it will
destroy itself.

We're not allowed to be critical of Israel, and when you
are you get all sorts of things hurled at you. Even though
Israel deserves criticism of the most severe kind.

The law of return states that any Jew, born anywhere in the world
can go and live in Israel. No Palestinian can. That is wrong.
Let us see humanity in the Other,
lets not start with terror and murder.
If you travel to Israel, visit Palestine too.
See for yourself how Israelis behave to the Palestinians. That
is not acceptable.

Foxy,

I cannot recall you ever criticising the behaviour of the Palestinians. Even now you try to excuse them by saying "Their cruelty and continual murder are facts. But we need to ask Why?"

Why do they deliberately murder women and children?
Why do they throw homosexuals off tall buildings?
Why do they hide weapons in schools and hospitals?
etc

Some crimes have no excuse and there is no justification possible. behaving like animals is not conducive to the Israelis treating them like equals. Hamas is still fixated on eliminating Israel altogether and killing Jews, and Fatah is not far behind and both their leaders see negotiating as a sign of weakness.

There is no indication that if Israel conceded to giving the Palestinians everything Israel gained from 1967 that the Palestinians would cease their hostilities.

While there are definite excesses committed by the IDF, they often pale in comparison to those by Hamas-sponsored terrorists.

shadowminister,

Your memory and what you choose to believe is selective
and always has been. My posting record on this forum
is quite clear in that I have always taken a stand
against extremism and fundamentalism, religious or
any other.

In any case lets leave it there. I don't want to argue
any further. If you have such a low opinion of me -
I guess its something I shall have to learn to live with
difficult as it may be.

Enjoy your day.

BTW:

My father taught me to always ask - Why?

And its become an occupational habit.

Foxy,

Perhaps you could ask why the Israelis behave the way they do.

While you claim to be against extremism, your criticism of the Palestinians is entirely lacking.

Shadowminister,

That is a question that only the Israelis can answer.
However it is clear that you can't keep on abusing
people and then blame them for fighting back.

Israel's occupation and its discrimination against
Palestinians are the main causes of the endless cycles
of violence in Israel and Israeli occupied territory.
United Nations have concluded.

A high level team of investigators appointed last year
by the United Nations Human Rights Council to probe
"all underlying root causes" in the decades long
conflict pointed the finger squarely at Israel.

"Ending the occupation of land by Israel remains
essential in ending the persistent cycles of violence.,"
they said in the report, adding that there was ample
evidence that Israel has "no intention of doing so."

There's more at the following link:

http://middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-blame-conflict-un-report

Foxy,

Prior to the British occupation, the Jews were frequently targeted for violence by the "Palestinians" so by your logic they were perfectly entitled to fight back. It is just that they fought back too successfully that you don't like.

The armistice in 1949 settled with the Jordanians occupying East Jerusalem which was previously the Jewish quarter. The Jews were expelled their synagogues vandalised and access to the wailing wall was made extremely difficult.

This area was recaptured in 1967 and the Israelis have been allowed full access to their mosque even when they use this freedom to shoot at Jewish worshiping at the wailing wall.

shadowminister,

I gather that you don't accept what a high level team of
investigators appointed by the UN Human Rights Council to
probe "all underlying root causes" in the decades long conflict
and which pointed the finger squarely at Israel - is not
acceptable to you.

The report in the link I gave cited that "ending the occupation
of land by Israel remains essential in ending the persistent
cycles of violence." They said in the report, adding that
there was ample evidence that Israel has "no intention of
doing so."

I never believed that Jews could treat others in this way, but
sadly the abused have become the abusers. We can argue this
until the cows come home. The facts remain the same - whether
you like them or not.

See you on another discussion.

Cheers.

Foxy,

The UNHCR is riddled with puppets from countries with dictators and human rights violators and is more political than functional. So that its reports are riddled with politics and inconsistencies is no surprise.

shadowminister,
The situation appears to be in line with your assertion ! At least for those who think !

shadowminister,

The link I cited according to Media Bias/ Fact Check
has High Credibility and a factual reporting ranking.
As does it highly respected political editor - David
Hearst. The facts are - that no matter how hard you
argue pro-Israel. International agencies, political
journalists of repute and the whole world points
the finger at Israel in this ongoing conflict.

You can continue to try to do your usual Houdini act.
The fact that Israel is the abuser - remains!

Foxy,
When you wake up that the people whom you hold in such high esteem aren't to be trusted nor relied upon, you will eventually "see" !

Indyvidual,

The evidence-based facts speak for themselves.
Truth is not hard to see if you open your eyes.

Foxy,
Evidence on the ground is vastly different to evidence written by those with no exposure to the issue !

Indyvidual,

Those providing the evidence have lived and seen
things with their own eyes. They have experienced it.

Foxy

"Media Bias/ Fact Check" has been roundly criticised for rank Bias and David Hearst is a reporter for the Guardian which is also firmly anti-Israel.

Just reading an opinion that blames everything on Israel and nothing on the Palestinians should be a red flag for left-whinge propaganda.

Better luck next time. It is amazing how racist the left is.

shadowminister,

David Hearst stopped working for the guardian in 2013.
He's worked for numerous other news sources.
He is an expert on the Middle East and founded the
highly respected news outlet - Middle East Eye.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Eye

In any case you can dispute whatever you like.
The facts don't change and the world condemns.

Foxy,

The facts I have pointed out don't change. The responsibility for the violence lies at least 50% with the Palestinians.

shadowminister,

Of course the Palestinian organisations are not
innocent of retaliation. But ultimately the occupators
are the Israelis and until their occupation of
Palestinian lands ceases nothing will change. People will
continue to fight back.

The Palestinians have been offered land for peace several times and have refused because most Palestinians can't even accept the pre-1967 borders.

The Palestinians or the Arabs have initiated nearly every conflict before this. As you point out the Israelis have the right to fight back.

shadowminister,

You criticize Putin and his inhumanity and
yet you take the side of Israel and frame any
criticism as anti-Semitic.

Your hypocrisy reaches a new level.

Foxy,

Israel does not have torture chambers, Putin and Hamas do.

You are the hypocrite.

shadowminister,

For Palestinians Israel is one big torture
chamber. It is an opinion prison where those incarcerated
are at the mercy of their Israeli jailers.

It is quite remarkable to hear your ignorant
statements at a time when every major human and civil
rights organization on the globe has defined Israel as
an apartheid state

My apologies I meant to say that Israel for Palestinians is
an open prison where those incarcerated are at the mercy
of the Israeli jailers.

When the Zionists reclaimed Israel, they didn't take into
account the Palestinians who were already living there
. What were they supposed to do? Were they supposed to
just disappear? That is where as a people, the Jews fell down,
and where Hitler won. He changed Jews from
from being a compassionate nation into a destructive, uncaring,
and inhumane one. The tragedy of the Palestinians is just as
much the tragedy of the Jews.

Foxy,

The "prison" that the Palestinians are in is effectively of their own making. When the leaders of the Palestinians are paying a bounty for every Jewish man woman or child murdered the Israelis have the right to defend themselves.

P.S. Hamas is recognised as a terrorist organisation, so they are even more odious in the international community than the Israelis.

shadowminister,

I'm sure that Putin also thinks that the Ukrainians
are terrorists. However the world doesn't think so.
And the world also continues to point the finger at
Israel and their odious treatment of Palestinians.
Israel is to blame for Hamas.

Foxy,

Now you are just trying to muddy the water. Only a moron would think that the Ukrainians are terrorists while Hamas and Fatah clearly are.

Claiming that Israel is responsible for Hamas is a blatant lie Hamas is a terrorist group funded by Iran and has established a one-party dictatorship that routinely executes political opponents.

Israel goes to a lot of effort to not hurt civilians while Hamas and Fatah go to a great of trouble to target civilians.

The movement against Israel is almost exclusively coming from the anti-semitic left whinge.

shadowminister,

Muddy the waters?

You're right. Only a moron would think that Israel's
infamous occupation does not dishonour Israel at every
turn!

http://onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=22183

"Israel cannot and will never be a free nation and
a true democracy until it ends the infamous
occupation which dishonours Israel at every turn.
It is to be sure the Achilles heel that will eventually
make or break Israel's democracy."

( Prof. Alon Ben-Meir).

Foxy,

You have a knack for digging out quotes from people that vindicate your opinion yet are miles from general consensus on the issue.

Alon Ben-Meir is described as a wide-eyed optimist with regard to the ME peace initiative. Hamas controls Gaza which is surrounded by the UN-recognised pre-1967 boundaries, yet still launches attacks on Israel.

Israel has made several offers to Hamas and Fatah including 95% of the occupied land and they have failed because the Palestinians refuse to accept any security guarantees.

Only a moron would believe that simply giving back occupied land would create peace or that this unilateral gesture would not dishonour Israel.

shadowminister,

We are wasting each other's time in continuing with
this discussion. There's no point to it.

I prefer to take the experiences of people who have
actually seen things with their own eyes on how
the state of Israel is abusing the Palestinians.
People who have to tell the truth.

I'll leave you with your beliefs.

Foxy,

I am not denying the abuses suffered by the Palestinians at the hands of the Israelis.

However, I am also aware of the frequent atrocities committed by the Palestinians against the Israelis that have occurred since before Israel was formed. Which apparently you are deliberately oblivious to.

One view is discriminatory, one is balanced.

shadowminister,

Whatever rocks your boat.