19 primary aged children and 2 teachers were shot and killed by a gunman Salvador Ramos, who opened fire with a handgun, and a AR-15 semi-automatic rifle at Robb Elementary School Texas USA. Yet another tragic mass killing in the United States. Despite these horrendous murders happening on an almost daily bases lax gun laws are the norm in America. The powerful National Rifle Association (NRA) who claim civil rights status use like minded politicians to block attempts at gun law reform.

Every time this happens there is a lesson for Australia, we must be ever vigilant to block those that seek to weaken our robust gun laws. Several far right micro political parties including, Shooters Party, One Nation, Liberal Democrats and United Australia Party seek to undermine our tough gun laws, introduced post Port Arthur. Under the guise of standing up for "gun owners rights" these people would given the opportunity, would white ant our gun laws to the point where our citizens would be as vulnerable as Americans to mass murder at the hands of crazed gun owners.

The so called Liberal Democrats have this to say;

"Australia's law-abiding firearm owners are treated poorly by federal and state governments. Ever since 1996, shooters have been faced with an ill-conceived National Firearms Agreement and persecution for engaging in their sport or using firearms"

The other far right parties espouse similar sentiments. They and others who seek to destroy Australia's gun laws, should be reminded that until yesterday Salvador Ramos could well have been classified as a law-abiding firearm owner.

Paul,
Yes a tragedy indeed but let us not forget that on a World rating the USA is a safe country with a low murder rate that would be the envy of the 50 countries that have a higher one.
Even nearby PNG with tough gun laws has twice the rate as the US.

Why do you concentrate on only one country?
How about South Africa with a murder rate six (6) times higher than your favourite target?
Or is it that black lives don’t matter?

This happens because the "educated" bureaudroids in authority only listen to "social experts".
No-one appears to converse with the everyday people who have to live with the mostly insane policies dreamed up by the above !
We see the same idiocy being played out in Local, State & federal Govt. The only saving Grace in Australia is that we still have reasonably civil society but the way things are going right around us it should not come as a huge surprise if the copy cats get feral in the not so distant future !

Hi Issy,

A "nothing to see here attitude", how many innocent children have to die before America becomes worthy of mention in your eyes, how far up your rankings do they have to climb before they overtake others you deflect to, PNG and South Africa, hardly developed countries with sophisticated populations.

My point, there is a correlation between mass killings and a perverted adherence to gun ownership, and consequently lax gun laws, that is clearly demonstrated in the United States. The difference between Australia and the US, in the US gun nuts have the political power to stymie any semblance of gun control. I believe there are similar people in Australia, and that is demonstrated by the extreme attitude of far right micro political parties I mentioned. We must be ever vigilant that these nut jobs never rise to prominence, and get the opportunity to implement their gun agenda.

The point, Paul, is that you have nothing to say about the horrendous murder rate in other countries, development has nothing to do with it.
It suits your political agenda to point to the US whilst ignoring the far more dangerous countries.
I am reminded of the time the Shooters’ reps in the NSW Parliament tried to have the firearms laws toughened in regard to the criminal use of firearms only to be stymied by the Greens opposition to the proposal.
Give the Greens credit on this occasion as they stuck by their mates.

Dear Is Mise,

Stop being juvenile.

The thread was kicked off talking about the horrific school shooting in the US.

Since 2009 there have been 288 school shootings in the US. The country you put up to counter Paul has had just 8.

What do you suggest happens to start reducing this toll?

http://edition.cnn.com/2018/05/21/us/school-shooting-us-versus-world-trnd/index.html

I am a dual citizen of Australia and the United States. I love both countries. I am appalled by the extraordinary influence of the NRA in the United States. What was meant to be protection for the citizens against the abuses of government has been transformed by gun nuts in the United States and their sponsors in the small arms industry into a license for bursts of mass murder.

There are some big differences between Australians
and Americans.

Americans say:

"Everything in Australia can kill you!"

Australians say:

"Probably not an AR- 15 !"

"What do you suggest happens to start reducing this toll?"

Arm the school staff.

Arm the school staff.
mhaze,
an option but, how are we going to educate the educated with regard to common sense ?
There definitely needs to be a total ban on assault-type weapons for suburb dwellers & high-powered for those who require them in the Bush & river areas for self defence & feral animal control.
A total ban on weapons would make as much sense as no ban ! Those who want to change gun culture need to change dumbing-down by ignorant teachers education culture ! This will prevent the stresses that lead to such horrendous acts. Don't think for a moment that happy & contend people commit these crimes. It's those who are being harassed by stupid dumbed-down authorities in our society. How many times do we still have to read about people reporting domestic violence or bad neighbours or barking dogs & hoodlums doing wheelies etc. yet those in authority fail to act ?
Want Laws that work ? Change your own mentality !

In my opinion, as a former F/A Licensing Police Officer, it's my belief that every single soul who wishes to own a F/A, must be licensed. When an applicant applies for a F/A licence, he submits his (comprehensive) application. to police. Upon receipt, we (police) put it through our system to determine whether the applicant is a fit and proper person to possess such a license. If we find any of his answers on his application, to be deceptive, misleading, or illusive, his application is stamped denied. Moreover he MUST furnish a legitimate reason why he wishes to possess a F/A. And the type of F/A (SS, Bolt, Slide, S/Auto etc). At this point, if his application is denied, he can appeal, to a Magistrate, which is then taken out of police hands, unless the Crown (through the police) wishes to argue against the applicant's grounds for appeal.

If I was all powerful. Mindful that shooting is a legitimate sport/pastime/necessity for some: -

License the applicant as is accomplished now, but also add, a full psychiatric certificate of fitness, specifically to possess a F/A;

And fully license the actual F/A(s)as well.

Will this halt any further Port Arthur's or Texas massacre(s)...No. But it might just slow them down. Totally Ban ALL guns? Impossible, you'd only create a criminal black market where police have no measure of control whatsoever. And what of the burgeoning knife culture?

Many years ago, I attended a 10 day seminar in the US, Called 'Rapist Beware' run by the late, Capt. James SMITH of the El Paso County Sheriffs. Dept., who's considered America's foremost, law-enforcement expert, on crimes of violence occasioned against women and girls. At that seminar, he explained - the circumstances where a knife is introduced, to terrorise or intimidate a woman, into submitting to a sexual assault. This is known as the 'cosmetic' factor. As a woman's face is paramount to her. And If her face is threatened to be horribly disfigured This generally, above all (his words), transcends any thought of being sexually assaulted.

Steele,
The school shootings are murders, the countries I put to Paul. have many times the murder rate of the US.
Murder is murder. regardless of the age of the victims.
Most, if not all of the countries with murder rates that far exceed the relatively low US rate have far tougher gun laws than the US.
How do you explain that?

The US has the highest number of guns in civilian hands than any other country yet it is far down the list of murders.
Third highest number of guns in civilian hands is Switzerland and it’s murder rate is about the same aa Australia’s, could the factor be other than guns?
Switzerland also ranks as one of the World’s happiest countries.

Perhaps the relative social programs have something to do with the problem, particularly mental health.

The murderer in Texas put it on social media that he was going to murder his grandmother and then shoot school children and no one reported it.

Foxy,

If your post was meant to be a joke then it is in extremely poor taste.
If it was meant as a serious comment then you have a problem.

Dear mhaze,

You ignorantly suggested the solution is to: "Arm the school staff."

What an ill-informed little snipe which has depressingly become too familiar in this debate.

The fact is the gunman made his way past not one, not two, but three armed officers who all saw him entering the school with weapons.

"While all the details of the shooting are not yet clear, authorities’ accounts revealed that the gunman was confronted by multiple armed police officers — yet they were unable to stop him before he killed nearly two dozen people."
http://www.msnbc.com/opinion/msnbc-opinion/texas-school-shooting-shows-why-arming-teachers-wouldn-t-have-n1295693

So are you now going to call for FOUR armed officers for every school in America and for them to be all equipped with AK47s?

Dear Is Mise,

Typical rubbish from you. These are the deaths of vulnerable primary school children you are trying to gloss over because of your utterly toxic weddedness to guns for all.

But there is a point you are making probably without knowing, inequality plays quite a substantial role in how gun ownership impacts a country. When comparing the US with other countries with even deeper inequality US then yes the murder rates can be greater, but they aren't shooting up their primary schools to anywhere near the same extent.

To Switzerland. They have the third of the gun ownership rates of the US but high equality measures. Their gun laws are in line with much of Europe and in a number of regards they are stronger than Australia's. However the sheer bulk of weapons in the public hands vs Australia has their gun related deaths per 100,000 standing at 3.01 vs our 1.04. Basically three bloody time ours.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country

Go and find a better poster child because Switzerland certainly isn't it.

Hi there STEELE...

I note you generally criticize the lawful use and possession of F/As, and that's fine, we're all entitled to our opinion and views.

Given our current Statutes permit the lawful use, and possession, of a F/A

What additional measures would you take, in an 'attempt' to reduce any further tragedies similar to that which has occurred in Texas? Thanks mate.

Steele,
Just give us your insightful opinion on why gun deaths in the US are falling and the number of guns in civilian hands is rising.

Could it be that more guns means more less crime?

SteeleRedux,
There are countries in Europe where, once national Service has been served, a weapon is kept in the home for what I presume is the protecting & defence of the home & Nation.
This would never work here for obvious reasons.

The Texas governor Greg Abbott without any knowledge of the facts immediately claimed this was not a gun crime, but a mental health issue. In line with his political masters in the NRA Abbott when questioned about Texas's lax gun laws deflected to the old "nothing see here" attitude.

My greater concern is for Australia where gun nuts in several far right micro political parties such as the Shooters Party, One Nation, UAP and Liberal Democrats seek to white ant our robust gun laws. Some within these parties are in the financial pocket of the American NRA, that was demonstrated by Steve (Dicko) Dickson from One Nation.

"Australia's pro-gun groups were also mimicking the NRA's political strategies in a "concerted and secretive" effort to undermine Australia's strict gun laws, according to the report by progressive think tank, The Australia Institute." The Shooters Party is well cashed up and there is every possibility they, and others, are indirectly financed by the powerful American gun lobby.

The Shooters Party introduced so called "Get tough on criminals" legislation into the NSW parliament. That was a smoke screen, tied to that was their real objective, a relaxation of gun laws for so called "law abiding citizens". The criminal part would achieve nothing, whilst the citizen part would have seen loaded guns in the hands of school children. The Shooters refused to separate their legislation therefore the GREENS opposed it, on public safety grounds.

Chicago had more gun deaths than any other city in the US in 2021 yet has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation.

Explain to me again how gun laws reduce gun crime.

As best I can tell, there's been no mass shooting in a school where the teachers are permitted to be armed.

SR as usual, adopts his policy of finding any data that he 'thinks' supports his view and then pretending that is definitive. Intelligent people know that first reports are always fraught. It is now reported that the shooter got into the school unchallenged and remained unchallenged for 30 minutes or so.

Arm the staff.

Dear o sung wu,

With respect you would have to point me to where I have generally criticized the lawful use and possession of F/As, I don't feel I have. I have owned guns in the past and enjoyed them. Admittedly Port Arthur put paid to that for me.

I have certainly been critical of laws which allow individuals to own and store hundreds of firearms in suburbia.

I am critical of people with a history of domestic violence like John Edwards being allowed to own weapons and to be given training on how to most effectively kill his children.

I struggle to find an acceptable reason for the rapidly growing ownership of pistols and likewise the legalisation of virtually automatic shotguns.

Finally I think there is a general loosening of the robust firearm laws in this country which is dangerous both to the public and to police officers.

Dear Is Mise,

As you acknowledge the number of guns in civilian hands has indeed been increasing including quite a surge under Trump. Can you please explain why there has been a corresponding surge in active shooter instances in the US going from just 4 in 2000 to 40 in 2020?
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2022/02/03/what-the-data-says-about-gun-deaths-in-the-u-s/ft_22-01-26_gundeaths_4/

Dear mhaze,

Seriously mate? I provide a direct quote and a link to support what I put and you think this: “It is now reported that the shooter got into the school unchallenged and remained unchallenged for 30 minutes or so.” from you in any way challenges what I put?

Would your out of control reluctance to back up the point with evidence have anything to do with the fact you ballsed up your lockdown contention by providing a study which directly countered it?

Steele,
Only 40? I’m amazed, there have been hundreds.
But you don’t explain why murders are falling and gun numbers are going up.

For years we have been told that more guns means more crime yet the US shews the opposite as does Switzerland; indeed Australia is also an example, there are now more guns in civilian hands than after the confiscations post Port. Arthur yet the crime rate continues to decline.
Don’t forget that Edwards was rejected by gun clubs but was granted a pistol licence by the NSW Government via the Police Commissioner, any training that he received from a pistol club was then a legal requirement under the gun laws.
Did he really require any training to kill at a few feet range?
The myriad films where murder and killing are offered as entertainment plus all the video ‘games’ would have been sufficient to give a good grounding in murder.

Dear Is Mise,

Why didn't you address the figures on active shooter incidents with something more concrete than you thought it would have been higher? Why the increase?

Firearms have become the highest form of death for America's adolescents.

"...new data show a sharp 13.5% increase in the crude rate of firearm-related death from 2019 to 2020. This change was driven largely by firearm homicides, which saw a 33.4% increase in the crude rate from 2019 to 2020, whereas the crude rate of firearm suicides increased by 1.1%. Given that firearm homicides disproportionately affect younger people in the United States, these data call for an update to the findings of Cunningham et al. regarding the leading causes of death among U.S. children and adolescents.

The previous analysis, which examined data through 2016, showed that firearm-related injuries were second only to motor vehicle crashes (both traffic-related and nontraffic-related) as the leading cause of death among children and adolescents, defined as persons 1 to 19 years of age.4 Since 2016, that gap has narrowed, and in 2020, firearm-related injuries became the leading cause of death in that age group (Figure 1). From 2019 to 2020, the relative increase in the rate of firearm-related deaths of all types (suicide, homicide, unintentional, and undetermined) among children and adolescents was 29.5% — more than twice as high as the relative increase in the general population"

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2201761

This appalling statistic is what you want for our country. Thankfully there are still enough of us standing in your way.

John Edwards, yes he was rejected by reasonable gun clubs, but found a happy family of like minded fellas at the SSAA St Mary's Gun Club. There Edwards was trained in the finer art of shooting with a pistol. With such training Edwards was able to murder his two children Jack and Jennifer. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A WORD OF APOLOGY FROM THE SSAA FOR THE PART THEY PLAYED IN THESE MURDERS. Disgusting!

Is Mise- You make many good points here. Thanks. I agree that Hollywood has a lot to answer for the decline in Western standards of behavior- but the behavior may not be due to people of western ancestry.

Paul,
Do be a good chap and read the Coroner’s findings, the blame lay fairly and squarely at the feet of the NSW Government, via their Police Commissioner and the power conferred on him by the firearms laws.
The SSAA blokes had nothing to apologise for, they were carrying out their legal obligations under the law; a law which you do not wish to see modified.

Steele,
I don’t want to see everyone armed, unless under a Swiss style army, I like the current gun laws but they could be improved by removing the stupid anomalies and the apparent spitefulness.

SR,

Again demonstrates that he just doesn't understand how these things work. Initial reports on these shootings are usually iffy and rarely get it exactly right. But SR found an particularly erroneous report (MSNBC - big surprise!) and since it told him what he wanted to hear, that was a far as his research, such as it was, went.

More recent reports show a very much different picture. Indeed it shows the police didn't engage the shooter for at least an hour.

Since SR thinks links are necessary to prove his gullibility...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robb_Elementary_School_shooting#Background

http://www.wsj.com/articles/uvalde-residents-voice-frustration-over-shooting-response-11653588161

http://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/26/uvalde-school-shooting-police-response/

I've always thought SR's errors were easily explained based on the fact that he forms opinions and then looks for something to support it, irrespective of the veracity of that 'something'. That's the exact opposite of the search for truth.

"ballsed up your lockdown contention by providing a study which directly countered it?"

No SR. I provided a study that you misunderstood. As per usual. See above.

Hi Paul,

Thanks for this thread.

An opinion piece by the editors of Scientific American,
May 26 2022 tells us that - "The science is clear: gun
control saves lives."

The article tells us that "By enacting simple laws that
make guns safer and harder to get, we can prevent killings
like the ones in Uvalde and Buffalo."

As we know a young man armed with an AR-15 style rifle
decided to fire in a school and at least 19 elementary
school children and two teachers are dead, many more are
injured and a grandmother is fighting for her life.

We're told that in Texas it's alarmingly easy to buy and
openly carry a gun. After this last incident President Biden
demanded reform, AGAIN. Legislators demanded reform, AGAIN.

And pro-gun politicians we're told, again turned to the
old weathered talking points - arm teachers and build
safer schools.

The editors point out that rather than arm teachers who
have enough to do without keeping those guns from students
and having to train like law enforcement officers to be
able to confront an armed attacker - rather than spend much
needed school dollars on more metal detectors instead of
education - we need to make it harder to buy a gun.
Especially the kind of weapon used by this killer and the one in
Buffalo.

The science is clear we're told. More guns do not stop crime.
Guns kill more children each year than auto accidents. More
children die by gun-fire in a year than on-duty police officers
and active military members.

We're told guns are a public health crisis just like COVID
and in this America is failing its children over and over again.

There's more at:

http://scientificamerican.com/article/the-science-is-clear-gun-control-saves-lives/

Law enforcement couldn't immediately subdue the
killer.

Teachers are the first line of defence, they should be encouraged to be trained to combat standards of efficiency with a suitable pistol, and we in Australia should be implementing this tactic before we see our first attempted school shooting.

Foxy,
Glad to see that you’ve given up the dubious humour,

Dear mhaze,

Really mate you are so bloody transparent. I do love it whenever you start referring to me in the third person as you are just signalling you are on a hiding to nothing.

“Again demonstrates that he just doesn't understand how these things work.”? Are you really criticizing people for assessments that are revised when later evidence comes in?

This from you: “Increasingly, as new and better data becomes available, the threat from the pandemic seems to recede. The original thoughts of 500,000 deaths in the UK and 2,000,000 in the US have become 20,000 and 100,000.”

Well for the US you were out by a factor of 10.

So please just park the premature nonsense as it makes you just look silly.

From your Wikipedia link: “He was in the building for 40 to 60 minutes, killing people while armed police stood outside the classroom and building. Officers arrived four minutes after Ramos entered the school and attempted to make entry, but were forced to retreat after he fired at them.”

So what impact do you think teachers armed with pistols would have had when the gunman was able to send trained police officers packing?

Dear Is Mise,

You wrote: “Teachers are the first line of defence, they should be encouraged to be trained to combat standards of efficiency with a suitable pistol, and we in Australia should be implementing this tactic before we see our first attempted school shooting.”

See you do want this for our country.

Me? I would prefer we maintain and strengthen gun laws if needed to make sure we don't have our “first attempted school shooting”.

SR,
Do grow up, please, to construe from what I wrote that I want school shootings shews not only a lack of English comprehension but a juvenile outlook.

Teachers not only are the first line of defence but, unarmed they are also among the first victims.
Why do you object to them having a chance to defend themselves and their students?
Who else is on the spot to respond to the threat?

Remember the Childers fire?
15 dead and all it took was some motor fuel and a match.
Where were the calls to control unfettered access to combustible liquids and igniters?

Steele Redux said "I do love it whenever you start referring to me in the third person as you are just signalling you are on a hiding to nothing."

Answer- Perhaps mhaze talks about Steele Redux in the third person for the same reason a parent talks about a child in the third person. YA YA YA- yes- as you may see little Jimmy has been enjoying his birthday present. It's pointless to discuss things with people who are never going to agree- better to talk with people that will get value out of what you say.

That's nice Steele Redux...

We are happy to talk about Steele Redux's comments but not to him- he is free to do the same

Hi Issy,

Its not so silly, after all its Shooters and Hooters policy to have loaded guns in the hands of school children, the teachers will have to defend themselves.

Shooters policy; "Establish family and home protection as a genuine reason to own and use a firearm and continue to support measures increasing a person’s right to self-defence."

This is a universal policy that would include school children carrying firearms at school for self-defence.

Do you support this policy?

ps, are you running for Sheriff of Dodge City again this year?

I never expected SR to admit that he got the reports on the shooting wrong (that's just not in his DNA) but its pretty funny that, in retaliation for being found out, he has to troll back through two years of my posts to ultimately find a non-error. Funny or sad.

The facts are that there were no impediments to the shooter entering the school and he had every reason to expect that. Had there been staff, or even the threat of staff, inside the building who were armed or potentially armed, the shooter most probably wouldn't have even been there. As I said earlier, there are no examples, that I could find, of mass shootings in schools that allowed the staff to carry firearms. They aren't the soft target the shooter is seeking.

SR whines "Are you really criticizing people for assessments that are revised when later evidence comes in?".

No. But by the time you made your now-obviously erroneous claims later new evidence was already available. So I'm criticising you for using old evidence that suited your purpose while ignoring the new evidence that blew your claims out of the water

Paul,
What’s wrong with that policy?
Sounds eminently reasonable to me, unlike the Greens policy that a firearm must never be used for self defence.
What do you think that a farmer hunting foxes on his property should do if charged by a scrub bull?
Do the Greens envision him laying down his rifle and trying to outrun the bull?
Or perhaps taking off his shirt and using it as a matador’s cape until the bull is exhausted and goes away?

Teachers are the first line of defence, surely you do not dispute that tact.

I am thankful that in the matter of guns John Howard ended the silly arguments of the gun nuts. He had common sense.

This is in response to Canem Malum's explanation about
talking about people in the third person?
I wonder how much fun we could have - if we all did it?
I'll give it a go:

This is for you Steele:

Canem Malum is an uncommon name
Being a watchdog is his favourite game
He's come on the forum to check every post
'Cause catching commies and Marxists
Is What he seems to enjoy the most

A British pug he's here to stay
And he wants all "foreigners" to just go away
Advance Australia Fair he doesn't voice
God Save The Queen is his song of choice

Putting the boot in is his favourite job
He likes to appeal to his favourite mob
They call themselves "conservatives"
But that's not simply true
They're just narrow-minded instead of true-blue

His most disliked poster just has to be
Yep, you've guessed it
The wiley, sexy, vulpine
The playful, mischievious and bushy-tailed
FOXY!

Salutations Issy,

I was wondering how long it would take for you to deflect to that silly old "SCRUB BULL" nonsense!

I absolutely agree every Australian, including 5 year old's, should be carrying a loaded AK-47, just in case "Scrubby The Bull" should make an appearance in their neighbourhood.

You say, school teachers should be trained in the use of a pistol. Will that training be carried out by the gun nut jobs from the Australian chapter of the NRA at their St Mary's gunnie HQ. The same mob who not only trained the child killer John Edwards, but also sold him the weapon he used.

So you support primary school children carrying loaded guns for self-protection, as per Shooters and Hooters policy.

Paul,
Why is the scrub bull analogy nonsense?
Please explain how the farmer should react under Greens’ policy.
Under their policy it would appear that a Police Officer would not be allowed to use his issue pistol for self defence.

As far as scrub bulls are concerned, I speak from personal experience; I was in the process of reloading my single shot muzzle loading percussion rifle when the bull charged out of the scrub, had I not been carrying a heavy pistol (on the old “possess, use and carry” licence) then I probably wouldn’t be here to regale you with a slice of real life.

SF&F policy on self defence is quite reasonable, it’s only your feeble attempts at “humorous” misinterpretations that are at fault.

Dear mhaze,

Lol.

Nah mate, finding that quote was a 30 second exercise. It is a good one from you isn't it.

As to me getting it wrong all I asked from you was evidence for what you were asserting and at no time did I claim that evidence, when provided, was not correct.

But as usual your deep hypocrisy on this matter was there for all to see.

Now to your idiotic assertion that: “Had there been staff, or even the threat of staff, inside the building who were armed or potentially armed, the shooter most probably wouldn't have even been there. As I said earlier, there are no examples, that I could find, of mass shootings in schools that allowed the staff to carry firearms.”

Texas already allows for armed teacher in its schools. Originally limited to one armed marshal for every 200 students that cap was removed after the Santa Fe shooting in 2018 and now allows for unlimited number of staff to be armed.

It did diddly squat.

To expect a lightly trained teacher with a hand gun to be effective against a suicidal youth with an automatic military styled weapon is just bonkers and puts you in that ideological sewer that characterises much of the US right nowadays.

Dear Canem Malum,

Little mousey squeaks from over in the corner are hardly becoming are they. Inane commentary is boring. Try to step up mate.

Guns are not a controversial issue to most people
in Australia.

It took one mass shooting for Australia to pass
gun reform. Whereas in the United States there have been many
mass shootings none of which have been met with successful
gun control legislation.

Most Australian view guns as only being needed to be used
by farmers or hunters and even then these guns are rightly
regulated. There's a huge gap in how the United States and
Australia views firearms - in part due to each country's
historical origins.

Both Australia and the United States were colonies of Great
Britain but only one (the US) fought a war to win its
independence and it has the right to bear arms enshrined in
its constitution.

Of course the United States is a much larger, and very
different country than Australia. However more guns is not
the answer - it should be fewer guns.

In our country it was a conservative leader - our Prime Minister
and his government who decided after the Port Arthur Massacre
in 1996 that Australia needed to restrict access to deadly
weapons and introduced the program called - The National
Firearms Agreement which banned certain firearms such as
automatic and semi-automatic rifles and shot guns.

They established a gun registry of all guns owned in the
country and required a permit for all new firearm purchases,
among other things.

This succeeded in Australia.

If the United States keeps on doing what they've been doing
they're not going to get any change. If their objective is
to really reduce - and hopefully to eliminate these tragic
incidents, then business as usual or tinkering just around the
edges is not going to work.

Be grateful we live in Australia and we should resist any
influence that the NRA may be trying to introduce to this
country. The US should look to Australia's model and learn
from it. We don't need people like the former US President
Donald Trump telling people what to do. One of the biggest
contributors to his election campaigns was the NRA.

Foxy,
You say more guns is not the answer but that it should be fewer guns; how do you explain that in the US, and Australia, that as the number of civilian guns has increased crime rates have decreased?

Hi FOXY; I love your rhyme!

These are the Facts:

You and many others, may wonder why the US has not introduced some form of gun control, especially after the recent massacres that have sadly occurred over the last quarter century or so. I've trained at the S&W Academy,(now ceased operations) in Springfield MA and with the FBI at Quantico VA. All relating to law enforcement F/As Instructor training. I'm a FBI Certified F/As Instructor, of the Revolver, Pistol, Tactical Shotgun & Sub-Gun. I'm also an FBI trained and certified, Urban Sniper (as opposed to military Sniper). All of which were undertaken in the United States during the years of; 1986 and 1987. Whilst I was serving in the police force.

Accordingly I've often raised with the various US Instructional cadre, the reasons for such frequency of many of these tragedies in the US, as juxtaposed with our own Port Arthur asking if they believe whether it's the easy access to all manner of F/As, that's a major part of the problem?

According to my information, such total prohibition would only create a further burgeoning black market, for these types of military style weapons. And drive them even further underground. Besides, there are literally millions of these types of F/As in private hands that would never be surrounded nor given up for registration. As most Americans believe, right or wrong, they have a God given right, to ownership, possession and use of a F/A at their own discretion. Moreover, they contend they have a right to defend themselves, their loved ones and their property. So beware! Any government, whether federal, state or local, dares to try to take those F/As from them!

There are heavily armed hillbilly militias, living in the densely wooded areas among the hills and mountains of some of the southern States. Should any government try to disarm them? Well, civil war is a possibility, with the loss of many lives. Interestingly, the late Charlton HESTON owned literally hundreds of military small arms, kept in his mansion, complete with tens of thousands of rounds of ordinance.

Dear O Sung Wu,

Thank You for your kind words regarding my rhymes.

Regarding gun control in the US? My husband and I
lived and worked in the US for close to ten years.
And of course we saw the problems that you
mentioned that exist.

However, I still believe that it should not be so
easy to buy and openly carry a gun. They should make
it harder to buy weapons - especially the kind of
weapon used by the killer of this latest tragedy and
the one who killed 10 people grocery shopping in Buffalo.

The science is clear - more guns don't stop crime.
The article in the link I gave earlier from Scientific
American pointed out that:

"Guns kill more children each year than auto accidents.
More children die by gun fire in a year than on duty
police officers and active military members. That guns
area public health crisis just like COVID. And in this
regard - America is failing its children over and over
again!"

To do nothing because it's to hard - to me is not an option.

http://scientificamerican.com/article/the-science-is-clear-gun-control-saves-lives/

A great post o sung wu.
Another point to remember is that the Second Amendment doesn’t grant the right to bear arms to the citizens, it recognises a preexisting right.

The facts are that - Britain, Australia, Canada,
New Zealand, and Norway to name just a few countries
all had a culture of gun ownership, and all tightened
restrictions. Their violence statistics now diverge
sharply from those of the United States.

The world over mass shootings are frequently met with a
common response. Officials impose new restrictions on
gun ownership. Mass shootings become rarer.
Homicides and suicides ten to decrease too.

The following may be of interest:

http://stanford.edu/2022/05/25/gun-violence/

Sorry for my typo. Here's the link again:

http://news/stanford.edu/2022/05/25/gun-violence/

The Second Amendment to the U. S. Constitution states: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

It would seem reasonable to change it to: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people who belong to such a Militia to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

david f,
The Constitution recognises a preexisting right, if it were changed to not recognising that right , the right would still exist.

Foxy,
When you find a link why do you not copy and paste?
The last link that you gave still dosen’t work.

Hi Issy,

The "scrub bull" self-defence argument carries no weight. There is no significant problem in Australia with attacks from "scrub bulls". You know, and I know, despite what these far right micro parties might say, their objective is the arming of as many Australians as possible. That's right, the GREEN's don't accept that ordinary citizens should be armed on the pretext of requiring a gun for "self-defence". You have a Dodge City mentality when it comes to the possession of firearms.

What happens in America, shocking as it is, stays in America, and the citizens there have to deal with it. Australia is relatively safe at the moment, but gun nuts and their political hacks try at every opportunity to white ant out robust gun laws. Judging by the 0.1% of the popular vote for the Shooters and Hooters Party in the Federal election you're not going to achieve political power any time soon, but take heart, Hitler started off with only a few votes.

Good news! The GREENS have won the seat of BRISBANE, did you back that winner Issy? I put it down to my day of door knocking in the week before the election.

That sounds like a lot of fun o sung wu. I would have liked to be that competent with the range of weapons. We were only lightly trained with small arms, including the issued Smith & Wesson, & were not really expect to do anything much with them.

On the other hand our Sea Venoms had 4 x 20mm cannon with 600 rounds & 8, 60Lb rockets, equivalent to a full salvo from a Daring class destroyers 6 x 4.5 inch guns.

We would have had no trouble taking out the Opera house, [if it had existed then], & most of Circular Quay if we felt so inclined. That none of us ever did shows that we were not all that interested is shooting at things, unless it became really necessary, & we were ordered to do so.

Here's the link again:

http://news.stanford.edu/2022/05/25/gun-violence/

Dear David F.,

As always - yours is a voice of reason.

Thank You.

Paul,
Rave on, but the Greens say that a firearm must never be used for self defence, many women on bush properties are alone with small children, if strangers enter the property and start banging on the locked doors, what is the woman to do?
What is the Greens solution?
Ring the police?
The phone line’s been cut.

Don’t say it can’t happen, a farmer’s wife in NSW was dragged from her home, raped, then murdered. Fortunately it was a rare happening.

The reality is that on many properties ths woman keeps the shotgun in the corner of the kitchen and a few shells in her apron pocket in case the foxes have a go at the chooks.and if anything more serious happens she has a chance.
The law being regarded as stupid is ignored.

Thanks Foxy, it worked.

G'day HASBEEN..

It's been a while, I hope you're well. I was extremely lucky when I was over there, our Bureau PFI was I/C of most of the the North Atlantic seaboard. Almost all of New England. therefore I had the opportunity to see and test fire the latest & greatest in the Bureau's small arms inventory back then. I must say I was always treated as a bit of an oddity, being the only Australian, and was invariably called 'Ozzie'. The Yanks are the most generous, most hospitable people, on the face of this earth. And for that reason I'll never let people speak badly of them.

Much like those of the RUC who were 'trying' to train me to operate 'Hadrian', the mobile 'Bomb Response Disrupter' in Belfast, Northern Ireland. They all must think I was a real dunce, trying to learn all the electronic nuances of that damn thing? Ah those were the days!

I bet those guns on the, Carrier, the 'Sea Venoms' would near evaporate its target, into a fine red mist, if they hit a human being at point blank range?

Sorry moderator - I tend to rave on, if given the chance.

And another 4 weapons formally held in a suburban house enter the criminal underworld after a violent crime to no doubt reappear to inflict further violence on our community. Aren't these hobbies fun.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-28/man-set-alight-guns-stolen-high-wycombe-home-invasion/101107844

SR,
Nice of you to gloat over another human’s suffering.

Obviously being a law abiding citizen he didn’t have time to get a weapon to defend himself.

We cannot possess anything for the purpose of self defence in this country, I’m glad that I have a legitimate use for a walking stick, a primary and deadly self defence weapon.

It would be a terrible thing if a criminal were injured or killed in the commission of a crime.

Dear Is Mise,

You really are a flog aren't you.

It is your bloody hobby which is the direct cause of this poor bloke being set alight.

Your answer? More guns. Unbelievable. More to end up in the hands of criminals.

I have no issue with people having a long arm for hunting but stockpiling pistols are a red flag for the underclass.

The vast majority of illegal guns in the community start their life as legal weapons in the hands of so called law abiding gun owners. Unfortunately these weapons are so often mysteriously lost or stolen, and you wouldn't want to know it, they end up in the hands of criminals. If a criminal wants a gun there are plenty of law abiding citizens, probably SSAA members and Shooters and Hooters voters, ready, willing and able to meet the demand, at a price of course.

Issy 99% of the population should not be armed due to the so called risks faced by the other 1%.

You didn't answer my question; Did you back the Greens to win. Ignoring the bloody obvious I see. I checked the vote YOUR MOB got 0.1% of the national vote, they are a laughing stock!

Hi Foxy, my friend was on Q&A this week, gave that Liberal wally Alexander Downer some stick. BTW; Stephen had a late serge of absentee votes in BRISBANE and overtook Labor by 600 votes to win the seat from the Liberals. I thought he was a gonner yesterday as Labor moved into second position with a strong flow of pre-poll votes.

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

To set a man alight, AFTER he complied with the robbers demands to give them access to the gun safe! Surely not, but it happened!

I'll admit nothing herein Steele; But when I was still with the detectives, a unique form of justice would prevail. And the malefactors concerned, would quickly learn the folly of their violent ways?

Police brutality! The LEFT would wail? And what of the brutality that's visited up, this burnt victim? Or the many other cases we hear of, almost daily; Sexually assaulted, women and girls. Their lives destroyed forevermore. I know, I've spent hours with some of the survivors of these horrendous ordeals. What about their friggin' justice!

And some obsequious defence Barrister, will endlessly examine, under oath, the evidence of some of these hapless victims, on their sexual antecedents, for all to see, and hear. As if it's rubbing more salt into a festering wound. A wound she'll carry for the rest of her life.

Mate, our whole justice system is cockeyed my friend, and badly so.

I'm so glad I've retired, I couldn't do that thankless task for a moment longer.

Despite the outdated notion that the Americans feel the need for a "well-armed militia" to protect themselves from foreign invaders, they now need guns to protect themselves from each other.

They are a sick society trapped by their unquenchable lust for firearms and love their guns more than they do each other and they consider that to be the definition of Freedom.

I refer to the NRA cult as "Ammosexuals".

Dear o sung wu,

You are of course not going to hear from me support for police delivering summary justice but faced with such utterly depraved conduct I do understand the temptation.

It isn't even a form of callousness but rather it speaks to a deep malevolence which is hard for the ordinary person to fathom. It must have been a very confronting part of the job to have to deal with such characters.

There is no excuse for the issuing of "summary justice" by police, without trial and without proper consideration of the evidence. Too often coppers set themselves up as judge, jury and executioner which makes them no better than the criminals they are employed to police. Often the so called "summary justice" involves an element of hate, which has often been the case with Aboriginal arrests, leading to deaths in custody.

I've heard statistics that there are more deaths in custody for whites- but there you go.

There's potential for abuse with all wielders of power- what is valid?

I suppose boredom leads to pointless yabber about what goes on in another country which is totally irrelevant to our own. I get bored on Sundays, and that sometimes leads me to look at pointless BS posts, with their BS pontificating that won't make a iota of difference to what goes on in America, where actual Americans can't do anything to stop their own people from shooting other Americans. It's a peculiarly American thing: doesn’t happen anywhere else - at least not on a regular basis. In a short time, it will happen again, then again ... over and over; and the BS yapping will be the same. Yawn.

You can try and make alliances for the common wealth but at the end of the day you protect yourself or you die. It's the way of mother nature- a cruel beast to be sure.

The way to protect ourselves and our society is
by enacting simple laws that make guns safer and
harder to get so that we can prevent killings like
ones in Uvalde and Buffalo.

At least 19 elementary school children and two teachers
are dead, many more are injured and a grandmother is
fighting for her life in Uvalde, Texas, all because a
young man, armed with an AR-15 style rifle decided
to fire in a school.

SR,

Need me to do more research for you?...

"It did diddly squat." (referring to SR's claim that "Texas already allows for armed teacher in its schools. ")

As with most things SR just hopes are true, this isn't. Texas is an open carry state. But some places are barred as regards people being allowed to carry guns. Schools, court, federal buildings etc. Again schools. There were no armed teachers. Armed teachers are verboten. They are allowed armed marshals if the school desires, but this one didn't have one at the crucial time.

Like I said, just hoping things are true isn't a good policy.

SR asserts (assertion is all he has these days) that armed teachers wouldn't have made a difference and my point to the contrary is idiotic. As usual I've done the research and will share it with the less able....

http://crimeresearch.org/2019/05/major-new-research-on-school-safety-schools-that-allow-teachers-to-carry-guns-havent-seen-school-shootings-during-school-hours/

"Schools that Allow Teachers to Carry Guns haven’t seen school shootings during school hours"

Quick ignore it. We don't want it to be true.

America's premier newspaper has another solution to the problem....

http://babylonbee.com/news/parents-begin-disguising-school-buildings-as-the-capitol-so-congress-will-spend-billions-to-protect-them

Hi there STEELEREDUX...

Yup, I would say this form of justice impotence is one of the main causes why detectives chuck in the towel. And the uniform guys suffer similar vocational negatives, with attitudinal abuse, and negative overtures from those individuals from whom they seek their co-operation.

There's an old saying STEELE;

Whenever you're in trouble, the first person you want to see is a copper;

And the 'last' person you want to share a beer with, is also a copper.

" In every country people get into arguments, hold racist
views or suffer from mental health issues. But in the United
States it is easier for these people to pick ip a gun and
shoot someone."

This is the reality that allowed an 18 year old to obtain
an assault rifle and kill 19 children and two teachers
at an elementary school classroom in Uyalde, Texas and it
is what makes the United States a global outlier when it
comes to gun violence with more deaths than any of
its peers.

Studies have found this to be true at the state and national
level. It is true for homicides, suicides, mass shootings
and even police shootings.

Strict gun laws appear to help they are associated with fewer
gun deaths in both a domestic and global context while
looser gun laws are associated with more gun deaths.

There's more at:

http://nytimes.com/2022/05/26/briefing/guns-america-shooting-deaths.html

Foxy,
How do you account for the fact that the USA has more guns in civilian hands than any other country in the world but is so far down the list for murders?
Surely, by your apparent reasoning, it should have the highest.

The top country for murders has ten times the murder rate of the US but strict gun laws; this is El Salvador.

Why do you think this might be?

Violence in Latin America is caused in great part
by drug trafficking, weapons trafficking, gang wars.
Rates of gang and drug activities fall in some areas
due to law reforms or government squeeze.

Traffickers often go elsewhere and violence surges
in those other regions. Violence in Latin America has
influenced immigration from affected areas into the
US - causing problems.

Foxy,
So the US is one of the safer places to be; but you haven’t explained why, with so many guns the US has a low murder rate.

The End Of The American Empire Is Here
http://youtu.be/8qtkhpJoz4s

Steele,
Having now resorted to the Ad Hominem tactic, I suppose that you won’t answer the question of why does a country with the highest gun ownership in the world have a low murder rate?

Paul,
I’ve met Stephen quite a few times over the past few years, nice young bloke and I wish him well. He’s got tons of ability and was doing well at Apple.
I don’t bet on individual seats because I don’t gamble and, frankly the money isn’t there.

The USA may have a low comparative global rate for murders but this does not not include the total number of gun-related deaths, such as suicide and accidental killings.

They also have the largest prison population,the highest percentage of gun-related killings and the highest number of mass shootings .

In 2020 alone, more than 45,000 Americans died by gunfire, whether by homicide or suicide, more than any other year on record. The figure represents a 25% increase from five years prior, and a 43% increase from 2010.

The notion that gun ownership makes the population safer is ridiculous.

I heard the was a two police stations in this town and that one was less than a kilometer from the school, and that the shooter was out the front of the school for at around 12 minutes firing shots at a nursing home before jumping the fence and entering the school, and that when police arrived, some of them went in not to confront the shooter, but to get their own kids (and left the other kids)

Hi Issy,

I say, despite having a high gun ownership rate America has a lower murder rate than a place like El Salvador. Gun ownership is not the reason to murder, but it does facilitate the means to murder. If you have a great deal of social disorder, and parts of America does have that, just like most of El Salvador, then adding guns to the mix simply exacerbates an already over heated amount of social problems.

Someone put up the idea of arming the teachers, well in theory that might work, providing teachers were all calm and calculating dead-eye dick straight shooters. Unfortunate in the heat of battle, there may be a large amount of collateral damage as teachers shoot teachers, as teachers shoot students, as teachers shoot anyone who moves, including the school gardener, all accidentally of course. The Dodge City Syndrome only works in the movies.

There may have been an ethnic component to the Texas shooting. As Candice Owens says about black families- one of the biggest issues in black families is the mother is often single.

Hey Rache, the controversy surrounding all this is based on the second amendment "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

Why is this important?

"According to the Declaration of Independence, the only legitimate governments are those with the consent of the governed. When a government becomes the enemy and not the defender of human rights, the people can withdraw their consent and set up a new government."

http://www.vox.com/2016/8/22/12559364/second-amendment-tyranny-militia-constitution-founders

Thomas Jefferson once said that "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

The founding fathers knew that the system they created might one day be compromised, and its for this reason the right to bear arms exists and is fundamental to American ideals.

So there's a line in the sand you see, the right to own guns is meant specifically so that the people can overthrow a tyrannical government if one becomes the enemy of the people.

All the gun deaths in America, is more or less build around this idea.
Given that many of the Amendments in the Bill of Rights have already been infringed, a situation already exists where the government HAS become tyrannical.

Even worse is the way the US acts towards other nations.
If you click my link above, you'll hear them talk about the US being in a death spiral of militarism.

The country has actually been captured by the military industrial complex and has become a war nation, something that Eisenhower spoke about in has farewell address in 1961.

- So part of me wonders what the point of all these needless deaths if the people can't get rid of the system that now exists and build a better one.

People often talk about the peace the West has enjoyed since WWII and that capitalism has also given us the liberty to choose our own paths in life.

[Cont.]

[Cont.]

But this system was actually weaponised against the interests of the people back in 1954 with the Bilderberg group, please watch this for more info.

https://youtu.be/dDSL74joDt0

You can find more info here

http://novelhd.com/truyen/267983683/chap/811248-1063207998/

Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars

In order to implement this objective, it was necessary to create, secure, and apply new weapons which, as it turned out, were a class of weapons so subtle and sophisticated in their principle of operation and public appearance as to earn for themselves the name of "silent weapons".
In conclusion, the objective of economic research, as conducted by the magnates of capital (banking) and the industries of commodities (goods) and services, is the establishment of an economy which is totally predictable and manipulatable.

In order to achieve a totally predictable economy, the low-class elements of the society must be brought under total control, i.e., must be housebroken, trained, and assigned a yoke and long-term social duties from a very early age, before they have an opportunity to question the propriety of the matter. In order to achieve such enormity, the lower-class family unit must be disintegrated by a process of increasing preoccupation of the parents and the establishment of government-operated day-care centers for the occupationally orphaned children.

The quality of education given to the lower class must be of the poorest sort, so that the moat of ignorance isolating the interior class from the superior class is and remains incomprehensible to the inferior class. With such an initial handicap, even bright lower class individuals have little if any hope of extricating themselves from their assigned lot in life. This form of slavery is essential to maintaining some measure of social order, peace, and tranquility for the ruling upper class.

Benito Mussolini stated that Fascism = "Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”

On the basis that big business, banking and elites, have been waging a quiet war against the people, this means that all western governments have actually become fascist in definition.

Democracy is a front company for western monetary policy, imposed by a captured America which has become dependent upon and focused primarily on making war.

It uses sanctions (money) and trade as weapons.

The whole world has become completely corrupted, by big business and elites, the US has become a war nation and dictates a rules-based order, which is actually a 'New World Order' one that seeks to centralise power over the entire planet and all it's inhabitants.

The term 'New World Order' used to be a term associated with conspiracy theories, and still is to a large extent.

But it's written right there on US money,
"novus ordo seclorum" = New Order of the Ages

Even Kissenger and many global leaders have openly used the phrase 'New World Order'

I told you all that the elites could not hide their evil plans forever, - because of this, they've moved from hiding it, to outright selling the benefits it.

As a side note, some might think of Jewish conspiracies because of the relationship to Jews as bankers.

Illuminati & World War 3: The End of America and the Illuminati
http://www.amazon.com.au/Illuminati-World-War-America-Plan-ebook/dp/B00QFN1J0Q

It's interesting to look at Ukraine, the closest thing we've had to the start of WWIII
How did Jews team up with Nazis?

Do you know that Zelensky is a Jew?
Even more interesting is that Zelensky is actually a finger-puppet of Kolomoisky.
Zelensky, Hunter Biden — and Their Sugar Daddy, Kolomoisky
http://youtu.be/fUPKZkqXfZI

Zelenskiy's Oligarch Connection
http://youtu.be/MXgli7TpINw

Is This Man the Most Powerful Jew in the World?
http://www.haaretz.com/2014-10-18/ty-article/.premium/the-most-powerful-jew-in-the-world/0000017f-ea28-d639-af7f-ebffe41b0000

He has connections to Chabad Lubavitch.
http://www.lubavitch.com/chief-rabbi-of-ukraines-largest-jewish-community-named-among-top-foreigner/

"A Ukrainian publication, named Chabad’s Rabbi Shmuel Kaminezki, Chief Rabbi of Dnepropetrovsk, one of the 15 “powerful foreigners” in Ukraine. Also named in another Focus rating of the 200 most influential Ukranians were leaders of major financial and industrial groups, three of whom are members of Rabbi Kaminezki’s advisory board: Igor Kolomoisky and Victor Pinchuk took sixth and seventh positions in the Ukraine influence rating, and President of the Dnepropetrovsk Jewish community Gennady Bogolubov took the seventeenth place."

- It's both a crazy and interesting world we live in.

CM,

Out of touch, the Texas shooting involved mostly Hispanic people, seems they were shot dead by a white dude. BUT they are all BLACK to a bloke like you, are they not?

Sorry my rant is off topic, but FYI
This is what prompted the US to overthrow Ukraine in 2014:
Refusal to join the United States of Europe...

Ukraine protests after Yanukovych EU deal rejection
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25162563

Paul,
As the teachers are in the front line, as it were, and are likely the first adults to face the murderer (or potential murderer) then they should have the choice of being able to protect themselves and their charges.
In fact they have a duty to do so as they are in ‘loco parentis’.

Gawd, it’s the Jews again!!

Armchair Critic- It's interesting when the communists crying for equality want inequality in arms- those in the know know that it was never about equality for the Communists- it was about the academics getting their dirty hands on totalitarian power. A world full of disempowered students that they can exploit with impunity.

Bob Whitacker said that he laughed when he heard that Communism was about the Farmers the Workers and the Academics that will rule them according to enlightened principles of equality. Leon Trotsky is still considered such an enlightened academic by many.

I understand that your eyesight is failing Paul1405 but your brain isn't- use it- and read my comments again.

Is Mise,

The US is not one of the safest
places to be in the world. And you know it.
Next you'll be accusing me of running away or painting me
into a corner - when
I don't respond to your well worn tactics. Talking to you is like
playing chess with a pigeon who craps all over the board
knocks over all the pieces then flies away claiming victory.

You know darn well that the murder rate in the US may be
slightly lower than other developed countries
but
It is however more lethal due to the lack of gun-control.

As for El Salvador? and other similar countries?
I tried to explain that Latin America is
caught in a vicious circle where economic growth
is thwarted by high crime ratios and insufficient economic
opportunity which contribute to high crime.
Crime and violence thrive because the rule of law
there is very weak - economic opportunity is scarce, and education is
poor.

I've just read PAUL1405's critical opinion of 'summary justice', that's been dispensed by police, (at p.11 herein) Once upon a time, I'd see red, and argue with this gentleman. But today I really see no point? I recall some sage advice given by an old Inspector, who once said. '...The public get the police force they deserve...'. Most of the community support their police, but there's this hard corps of detractors, who will endeavour to lambaste, chide and criticise the police, no matter what.

Perhaps they're of the same generation of sooks who refused to register for National Service, during the Vietnam war.

How should I respond, to PAUL1405 and his cohort of noisy naysayers, critics and detractors, about their police? I've no idea. I'm too old at eighty years to worry. All I can say is...put on a uniform for an eight hour night shift, and work the truck in the inner city patrol. Where you'll deal with the mundane, the outrage, the horror, and the downright appalling, of a uniformed police constable beat. And at the end of the shift, there's always the paperwork, and then home.

'How was work darling' your missus asks? 'Ah the usual' you'll say. How can you tell her of the human detritus you deal with nightly, the sudden deaths, suicides, druggies, and some of the really awful assaults, and SIDS? You can do nothing for the deceased baby, but try to calm the hysterical parents! You name it - A constable's lot, can be soul destroying at times? And then you've gotta get your sleep before the next shift.

And yet this faux, righteous individual PAUL1405, has the temerity to criticise the police. Listen sunshine, if you're in the poo, you'll scream for a police response, and you know it. Therefore PAUL1405, my loathing, my utter revulsion, and disgust for you, really has no bounds. Other than your blatant cowardice for dodging National Service for fear of being sent to South Vietnam. I dunno PAUL1405, Your craven conscience must be forever scarred. You truly are, an abominable human being.

The US is one of the safer places to be with regard to murder as El Salvador has a 10 times higher murder rate, it matters not why the murders take place the victim is still dead, robbed of their life.
Therefore El Salvador is a very unsafe place to be as you pointed out, South Americans are always trying to get to the Srates, one of thevreasons is that it’s a safer place.
p.s.I don’t play chess, could never understand it.

Foxy,

I just remembered your latest joke, great improvement.
You say murder in the US is more lethal due to lack of gun control.
Beauty, I’m still chuckling.

Hey Canem Malum,
I remember telling you years ago, that the US staged the 2014 overthrow of Yanukovych out of the US embassy in Kiev.
Also the Embassy in Kiev is where they hid the DNC server that Trump was always looking for.

There's more dirt in that closet too.
Hunter Biden Accused by Russia of Helping Finance Ukraine Biolabs
http://www.newsweek.com/hunder-biden-russia-ukraine-biolab-1691618

"Since 2014, Metabiota has been a partner of EcoHealth Alliance as part of the U.S. Agency for International Development’s (USAID) “PREDICT” project, which seeks to “predict and prevent global emerging disease threats."

NIH Officials Worked With EcoHealth Alliance to Evade Restrictions on Coronavirus Experiments
http://theintercept.com/2021/11/03/coronavirus-research-ecohealth-nih-emails/

Hunter Biden's Old Emails Linked to Ukraine Labs
http://global.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202203/29/WS62426127a310fd2b29e53d95.html

Fund run by Biden's son involved in financing biolabs in Ukraine: Russian Defense Ministry
http://english.news.cn/20220325/d3242927136e411490b2cea4a39a189b/c.html
The investment fund Rosemont Seneca, currently managed by Hunter Biden, the son of U.S. President Joe Biden, funded the Pentagon's military biological program in Ukraine, the Russian Defense Ministry said Thursday.

George Webb - Kolomoisky Biolabs?
http://www.trendsmap.com/twitter/tweet/1504220136978497538

I haven't been keeping up with it all but apparently this paid presentation gives the inside scoop on it.
http://www.neighborhoodnewsstudio.com/product-page/audio-video-report-by-george-webb

O sung wu,

I’ve remarked to you in the past that I used to provide an ear for some detectives to.talk about their hurt and frustrations..
As you say they couldn’t talk about it to their families.
These little sessions used to take.place at the police ‘watering hole’ on the second floor of the Crystal Palace Hotel in George St.

A.policeman's lot is not a happy one and I well remember two Probationary Constables being brought into the scene of a double suicide of two teenage boys (12 ga. shotgun in the mouth).
They both went a bit green and the Sergeant that I was talking with, said ‘They’ll remember this as one of the less nasty ones”.
I was there.as the representative of the family solicitor and of the family of one of the boys.

Even a Constable in.an area where there is virtually no crime can be exposed to horrors,
many years ago, near Hill End a local grazier (who lived alone) hadn’t been seen for a week so the local Constable went to the property and eventually found him, dead in his Landrover and he’d been dead for about a week, in high Summer,, to make matters worse the Constable had to shoot the grazier’s faithful dog as it attacked him every time he tried.to approach the vehicle, not knowing wether the bloke was alive or not.

Thanks O Sung Wu. You can't put all of societies problems down to the police. People like to blame someone. Anyone but themselves.

Hey Is Mise,
I only threw the Jew aspect in because it was interesting.
I'm not necessarily saying Jewish Bankers are trying to start WWIII against Putin.
- I don't know.

Interesting you mention El Salvador though because of the gang MS13.

It's been said that Hillary Clinton / Barack Obama used MS13 to Assassinate Seth Rich who it's assumed was the real leaker back in 2016 not Russian hackers.

Will Julian Assange and WikiLeaks Finally Tell the Truth About Seth Rich?
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/will-julian-assange-and-wikileaks-finally-tell-the-truth-about-seth-rich-918946/

Probably one of the reasons why they don't want Assange to ever see daylight again.
They'd probably execute him if they could get away with it.
Maybe he'll end up getting 'Epsteined'.

GOP-backed House candidate Marjorie Taylor Greene: The Obama administration used MS-13 to assassinate Seth Rich
http://www.mediamatters.org/seth-rich-conspiracy-theory/gop-backed-house-candidate-marjorie-taylor-greene-obama-administration

Pay no attention to the Media Matters article though, I'm only showing it for the purpose of showing that the accusations were made.
Media Matters was run by David Brock and was Hillary Clinton's private media outrage machine.
http://www.thenation.com/article/archive/the-poisonous-politics-of-david-brock/
"David Brock is the darling of Democratic Party millionaires and billionaires."

Thanks Armchair Critic- I enjoyed the information on the Euromaiden etc situation- a lot of work though. I still remember George Webb- and your recommendation- I looked him up recently and it said he was a journalist- I remembered that he had something to do with the CIA but I couldn't find the reference.

I looked up Nuland and Kagan recently and was surprised to see that they have a Hebrew connection as well as a Democrat one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Nuland

Rosemont "Seneca" is a cool name but I would have placed Hunter as more of an Epicurean man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_the_Younger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus

I'll check out your links. Thanks again.

_______

PS- I suspect that Paul1405 ran out of posts for the day.

The fact that the US has a lower murder rate than some countries is a fact. That the US has a higher rate of school shooting than countries which have a higher murder rate is also a fact. There is no single cause for murder. Murder can be committed for financial gain, passion, consequence of a robbery gone wrong, honor killings etc. The evidence that the culture of the United States is conducive to school murders is the high rate of school murders. Correlation does not prove causation, but it indicates that there may be a connection. It is logical to look for a connection. One obvious connection is the age and sex of the school shooter. It appears that most of the school shooters are young men. Insurance companies make the connection of the higher rate of young male drivers and car accidents. They charge higher insurance premiums for young male drivers. It would seem logical to make a similar connection with young males and school shooters. Making it more difficult for young males to get guns, especially assault rifles, would probably cut down the rate of school shootings.

David F said- There is no single cause for murder. The evidence that the culture of the United States is conducive to school murders is the high rate of school murders. Correlation does not prove causation, but it indicates that there may be a connection. It is logical to look for a connection. One obvious connection is the age and sex of the school shooter. It would seem logical to make a similar connection with young males and school shooters. Making it more difficult for young males to get guns, especially assault rifles, would probably cut down the rate of school shootings.

Answer- With respect to David F I still think he's trying to treat the symptom rather than the cause. In the Texas case there appears to be an ethnic component as the suspect was Latino- did the suspect talk to anyone- leave a suicide note- if this information isn't made public it undermines the ability of the public to make informed decisions at election time or direct the legislators in policy. The US probably has a greater ethnic complexity than Canada for example- as we know from maths complexity can produce unexpected outcomes.

Hi there; IS MISE & CANEM MULLUM,

Thank you both for your tacit support of the police I really appreciate it. I understand after 32 years in the job, that police are not angels. Some do things, that are wrong. But, by and large they are just like you and me. They have the same opinions, ideals, aspirations, and fears, that any ordinary person can have.

And when they're on the job, they occasionally make mistakes. Especially when they're arresting some goose. They're spat on, abused, and violently resisted. Most arrests occur in a public street or place, with a mass of witnesses present, and some even urging the arrested person to offer further resistance.

And our female police. Usually well presented and highly educated young women, who join the job as a career. They have high ideals and even higher expectations, that they can make a positive contribution to society by the mere fact of the Majesty of their Uniform, will aid them, especially with women and young folk.

Until reality happens. To a couple of my former female students, (when I was an Instructor in the Academy), They suffered a savage dose of reality when they first hit the streets. Eg. punched in the mouth by several youths (offender(s) let off with a Bond) necessitating 2 days in hospital and extensive Dental restoration. Kicked in the crutch, after being punched several times around her chest, and laying helplessly on the roadway. Again after several martial arts style kicks to her genitalia! Spat at, had paint, piss, and God knows what, thrown over them at a Demo.

All they wanted to do was to make a positive contribution, to help those who need that help the most. All were undergrads from several Universities in the metropolitan area. Idealistic, and in some measure, naive perhaps, but their hearts are in the right place. But the cardinal rule is; you don't f..k with the drugies who hang around schools, and other places popularised & fashionable for youth loitering. Otherwise you're in for a decent kickin', whether you're male or female copper.

Dear o sung wu,

I don't know if this is general practice. However, I read of a man who was rejected when he applied to the New Haven police force. His application was rejected because he scored too high on an IQ test. The police force had an upper limit on IQ. This seems counter-productive. You certainly seem intelligent to me. However, are intelligent people discouraged from police work in some jurisdictions?

Hi there DAVID F...

No sir, quite the contrary in fact. At one stage they would only accept applications from undergraduates. That is ,until they discovered that a good academic record did not necessarily make a good police officer. Sure academia is required - But common sense, mature thinking and good judgement, coupled with a sound sense of humour are most highly valued even prized in a new recruit.

Today David, part of the entry protocol includes an extensive discussion with three senior police officers who literally grill the applicant in commonsense good judgement and competent problem solving skills. Where there is no right or wrong answer. I must admit DAVIDF, if I were to apply to join-up today, they would most probably reject me. It's an honour to speak with you again. Take care.

o sung wu,

You may think of yourself as holier-than-thou when it comes to all things concerning police. The good old days past when due to the nature of the job, you gave yourself the god given right to issue "summery justice", as you and others seen fit. Of course summery justice can take different forms, from a bit of a slap for a wayward youth, to the action of coppers hanging of a no good blackfella in a police cell, its all justice in your mind. You said "Most of the community support their police", yes they do, but they don't support coppers issuing so called summery justice, as you would have it. Fortunately Australia has moved on, and relics such as you with your outmoded beliefs and ideas are no longer relevant in a modern Australia.

The Gestapo in NAZI Germany issued "summery justice", I'm sure they would have justification for their actions just like you, after all it was a tough job, especially during a war.

BTW; You know full well, as I have told you, I refused to register for National Service, during the Vietnam War. If you want to have a go, and it makes you feel superior in some way, come right out and say; "Paul1405 you were a sook, for not registering for National Service during the Vietnam War."

You employ a tactic of Ingratiation of yourself on this forum with others. I don't cop that, and when you show your bitterness, I'll fire back.

Hey Canem Malum,

"Thanks Armchair Critic- I enjoyed the information on the Euromaiden etc situation- a lot of work though. I still remember George Webb- and your recommendation- I looked him up recently and it said he was a journalist- I remembered that he had something to do with the CIA but I couldn't find the reference."

- No connection to the CIA, though I'm sure a few people wondered at the time how he managed to dig up so much dirt.
He just did what other journalists failed to do, and his partner at the time ex-cop Jenny Moore got killed for it.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1215573/pg9

PAUL1405...

You fire back all you like my craven friend. But we both know why you didn't register for National Service, even in a non-combative capacity, which many job descriptions fit, in the ARA. But if you can excuse your spinelessness and wimpish behaviour by claiming you were a Conscientious Objector? Well, you go ahead. But you and I both know the truth.

I can understand and even reconcile fear and timidity. I've suffered from both. But rank cowardice...never. You utterly sicken me, PAUL1405.

o sung wu,

He has no shame, no brains - nothing.

It's good that you called him out, but his complete lack of self-awareness shields him from the truth. He is not worth the candle.

The sickening Leftist demonisation of police is now being mentioned as one possible reason why police hesitated to risk their own lives by going into the school building. They are sworn to do their job, and risk their lives; but, they have feelings, and the constant bad-mouthing and abuse from the public - on the Left - is bound to have an effect on some police.

I note that the village idiot said something about the victims being Latino. The ignoramus wouldn't be aware that Texas used to belong to Mexico, and in that area there are probably more Latinos, including the police themselves, than there are Anglos.

Hey! Paul, the USA’s NRA* has filed for bankruptcy, must be all that money you keep saying they are giving away.

* Not to be confused with the Australian NRA.

Many thanks TTBN...

As always you're spot on. I'm all for a rousing and compelling discussion, but unfounded allegations that '...coppers hanging a no good black fella in police cells...' Well, that's beyond the pale in my opinion.

That aside, PAUL1405 always likes to hold those, who are of a conservative persuasion, to account. In some egotistical effort to elevate himself both intellectually and conceptionally above the rest of us.

He rarely misses a topic, as is his right. But it would nice for once, if he was more agreeable, and less narcissistic and arrogant, whenever he seeks to prosecute his argument. A wimp acting tough is amusing. But a coward acting courageously, is repugnant!

Thank you also IS MISE, and CANEM MULLUM for your valued support herein.

.

The Texas Tribune tells us that US Rep. Joaquin Castro
has called on the FBI on Thursday to "use their maximum
authority to investigate and provide a full report on
the timeline, the law enforcement response and how 21
Texans were killed."

Of course there are a lot of key questions left unanswered
starting with why a school door may have been left
unlocked as well as the long gap between the time police
arrived on the scene and the time the gunman was taken down.

There are a lot of concerns and a lot of unknowns
including whether the training and tactics the local
law enforcement officers had been given were current.

It was explained that after the mass shooting at Colorado's
Columbine High School in 1999 - when 2 students fatally shot
12 classmates and a teacher and injured 21 others before
killing themselves - law enforcement has moved away from
the tectics employed at the time of waiting and setting a
perimeter during an active shooter situation.

Instead police are now trained to immediately enter and try
to subdue the shooter. Columbine changed the entire landscape
of law enforcement's tactical response to active shooters
because it became clear that these incidents unfold in
minutes.

You have massive loss of life the longer you wait.

When gunfire is ringing out - the police now are trained and
expected and required to - engage, engage, engage.

We shall have to wait for the report as to why this did not
happen in Uvalde.

Dear o sung wu,

As someone who lived through the police and underworld tit for tat killings in the 80s here in Victoria I know full well what summary justice if taken too far can bring. There were a number of officers either killed or maimed for life during that period including Tynan and Eyre who were randomly selected.

It took a new police commissioner to return a degree of professionalism and abiding by the rules to the force and the killings on both sides waned as a result. I have often wondered if a similar version occurred in NSW?

o sung wu,

Well old fella, it was you and not I who diverted to the subject of summery justice by coppers, then you seen fit to carry on about national service and the Vietnam War in your typical malicious way. I realise you were a combatant in Vietnam, all I can say is I'm glad you survived the war, and have lived a long life. I don't know you, no more than you know me and to say' "you and I both know the truth" simply demonstrates your ignorance.

"Almost half the massacres of Aboriginal people were by police or other government forces, research finds" look it up, its all there

In regard to the Vietnamese War there was a letter from Ho Chi Minh to Harry Truman asking for Truman's support.

https://www.cvce.eu/en/obj/letter_from_ho_chi_minh_to_harry_s_truman_hanoi_28_february_1946-en-63812c0e-9a33-400c-b53a-272fc7669d96.html

In my opinion he should have had Truman's support. As the United States separated from the British Empire Ho Chi Minh wanted the Vietnamese to gain independence from the French Empire. Ho Chi Minh's letter was unanswered.

In my opinion we were on the wrong side in the Vietnamese War we should have supported the Vietnamese in their fight for independence instead of taking over from the French.

G'day STEELEREDUX...

All though you and I are generally opposing each other on different matters, I always value both your brains and your restraint whenever you debar an opponent's arguement.

I remember well the events in Victoria,in the mid eighties. I was still in the job then. Yes, we've had similar situation(s) here as well. And being the fifth largest body of sworn police in the Western World, there'll always be those coppers who like to square the ledger.

And I'm one of 'em STEELE. I was not paid enough to be spat on, assaulted, threatened and generally roughed up, by any punk crim. many of whom have their rightful place in Long Bay Gaol. Today, I'd be more than likely be paraded before IAD, but many of them have never been a member of a crime task force. Established at the direction of the Premier, to bust-up these violent ethnic gangs that permeated the South Western Suburbs of Sydney. And not one jack (detective) had to answer an IAD direction at the completion of the operation.

Oh I forget to mention, yup, we were successful STEELE, there wasn't a single crim. to be seen wandering around the streets and public places of our target area(s). Later ops. I was part of the now disbanded TRG. Another very successful ops. BTW the NSWPOL TRG was originally formed to counter the annual; Easter Motor Cycle Racing, Rioting at Bathurst, NSW.

Hi there DAVID F...

Sir, I have no knowledge of such a communication apropos Vietnam, and those hawks and doves who sought different outcomes. I was a mere grunt serving in UH-1Bs. Before I was even sent to South Vietnam, I more than likely had no idea where it was or how to spell the name?. Ignorance is bliss as they say.

Since my repatriation, I've had many comments raised and discussed as to the merits of our involvement, and some heated opinions saying why we should not have been there.

Being young and stupid, my biggest concern was my own level of comfort. Consequently, when I first saw our destination, it looked more like a regular FSB, then a troop under canvas. The 'Dat' looked typically like your proverbial s**thole, and the thought of living twelve months there, was utterly repugnant. Still, I survived and here I am.

Dear o sung wu,

I feel sorry for all fighting on both sides in war. My cousin was a pilot bombing North Vietnam. He began to feel sympathy for those we were fighting. One could not resign from the army, but one can refuse promotion. He refused promotion to Lt. Colonel was eventually discharged.

In regard to Texas I think it should still be part of Mexico. In 1829 the Mexican Constitution abolished slavery. Texas residents from the United States wanted to keep slaves so they fought for independence from Mexico. Texas achieved independence and gained admittance as a state to the United States. Wanting to keep slavery Texas seceded from the United States and joined the Confederacy to fight for slavery. General Grant who fought in the Mexican War regarded it as a war of aggression against Mexico. He thought of the Civil War as punishment for US aggression against Mexico in the Mexican War. In Grant’s Memoir’s are these telling quotes.

“Soon they [the Texans} set up an independent government of their own, and war existed, between Texas and Mexico, in name from that time until 1836, when active hostilities very nearly ceased upon the capture of Santa Anna, the Mexican President. Before long, however, the same people--who with permission of Mexico had colonized Texas, and afterwards set up slavery there, and then seceded as soon as they felt strong enough to do so--offered themselves and the State to the United States, and in 1845 their offer was accepted. The occupation, separation and annexation were, from the inception of the movement to its final consummation, a conspiracy to acquire territory out of which slave states might be formed for the American Union.”

“To us it was an empire [the territory taken from Mexico] and of incalculable value; but it might have been obtained by other means. The Southern rebellion was largely the outgrowth of the Mexican war. Nations, like individuals, are punished for their transgressions. We got our punishment in the most sanguinary and expensive war of modern times.”

America's wars do not always bear close examination.

Paul,
Is summery justice worse than winntery justice, or what?

Hi Foxy,
"Instead police are now trained to immediately enter and try to subdue the shooter."

That's not true in this instance, the cops stood outside doing nothing.
Parents who saw the cops doing nothing rally and tried to go in themselves and were tacked to the ground by the cops.
So me did make it and and rescued their kids, and also some cops went in and rescued their kids.

Sorry o sung wu, but this what I'm hearing and I told you all days ago.

If you all don't believe me, read the article yourselves.
http://www.zerohedge.com/political/go-there-distraught-parents-begged-texas-cops-enter-school-gunman-inside-hour

Do you all think I just waste my time talking shite for the sake of it?
- With no evidence to back up what I say? You must all think so.

Our pleasure O SUng Wu- I'm sure that politicisation of the police force was "different" in your day. Some of the self defense laws are getting a bit screwed up and the judges appear to be making weird judgements. The police often say that you shouldn't worry about talking to the police if you haven't anything to hide- lawyers will say never talk to the police- because the police don't care about the truth or fairness- they care about the number of fines and prosecutions to get a promotion. The legal system appears to be geared badly. I understand that many police have become disillusioned with the system. Sadly we need to be teaching our young- "Never talk to the police."

Hi Armchair Critic,

As I said in my earlier post The Texas Tribune told us
that US Rep. Joaquin Castro has called on the FBI
on Thursday to "use their maximum authority to
investigate and provide a full report on the timeline,
the law law enforcement response, and how 21 Texans were
killed."

There's a lot of unanswered key questions.

However the newspaper does clearly state that after the
mass shooting at Colorado's Columbine High School in
1999 - law enforcement has moved away from the earlier
tactics employed of waiting during an active shooter
situation. The paper stated that police are now trained
to immediately enter and try to subdue the shooter.

Why they didn't do this in this instance in Texas - we'll
have to wait and see what the investigation and upcoming
report from the FBI will say. There are a lot of concerns
and a lot of unknowns. Hopefully answers will eventually
be provided - especially to the grieving families.

Dear o sung wu,

Thank you, but I will admit to being unsure if your debar was referring to the legal context or the pugilistic. Given the topic I am assuming the later.

For those unfamiliar with the period we are talking about this is a brief summary which appeared in a book review:

“During the period between 1987 and 1989 there was a rapid increase in the number of people who were victims of police shootings. The shootings were also relatively localised in that four of the eleven men who were killed lived or had family ties in Flemington, a working class suburb of inner Melbourne. Indeed Gary Abdallah, Graeme Jensen and Jedd Houghton were killed within six months of each other. Some of the killings need to be understood in the context of the deaths of two police in Walsh Street South Yarra on 12 October 1988. These two police were ambushed and killed about thirteen hours after police had shot and killed Graeme Jensen.”

“Gary Abdallah was killed by detectives on 9 April 1989. He was an associate of Jensen and a friend of Jedd Houghton. Gary was arrested m his car and then taken back to his flat. He was shot at seven times from a range of six feet. The two officers involved in Abdallah's shooting refused to give evidence at the coronial inquest. Prior to Gary's death there had been rumours that he would be killed as a payback for the Walsh Street murders. As a result of these rumours Gary Abdallah went with his solicitor to the St Kilda Road police station where he was told that his fears were "ridiculous". In addition at the time Abdallah was arrested and shot he was reporting three times a week to Coburg police as part of his bail conditions. Inevitably the question arises as to whether the death of Gary Abdallah was a planned execution.”

Cont...

“The book raises many issues including the broad question of accountability and the role of coronial inquiries. In most cases police involved in the deaths declined to give evidence at the coronial inquiries including the two Armed Holdup Squad members who shot Graeme Jensen and the two Special Operations Squad members who killed Jedd Houghton.”

It is not difficult to make the case that had these incidents and the lack of accountability been allowed to continue and escalate more young officers may well have lost their lives. I for one am glad a new commissioner recognised the same and instituted a much needed cultural change.

Roger Rogerson seemed more of a lone wolf actor in your neck of the woods? A serial killer with a badge as they said. About the same period too from memory.

Good evening STEELEREDUX...

Yup the 'Dodger' was a legendary figure around the CIB in my time, and we've worked together, on a number of jobs, back in the day. A charismatic figure, and well respected, and got on with everybody. That is until he hit a hurdle in Dangar Place, Chippendale in inner-city Sydney. Where it was alleged he did murder one Warren LANFRANCHI a mug drugie, and petty standover man, by using a 'throw down' as his 'reasonable belief'.

LANFRANCHI's girlfriend was a beautiful looking girl (in the flesh) by the name of Sallie-Anne HUCKSTEPP. A drug user and an up-market call-girl, till she came tumbling down and had to pander her body on the streets at Kings Cross. Her Flat where she lived, with another call-girl, was so beautifully furnished, with exquisite taste, and ever so clean. It amazed me it really did. Anyway, she too was ultimately killed and found in a small decorative lake in Centennial Park, allegedly murdered by one Ned SMITH a tough but likeable heavy, well entrenched in the Sydney Crime Scene.

I knew Ned SMITH particularly well, his story would be well worth publishing, in my opinion.

The Dodger was a brilliant detective, to such an extent he was awarded the Commissioner's Commandation for his excellence. But become involved in corrupt activities, lost his job and career, and eventually ended up 'doing the lot' in Sydney's Long Bay Gaol where he'll now die.

The police don't "murder" anyone, they simply carry out executions as per the "law", so say some.

Once talking to an old chap, now in his 90's, a Christian church goer theses days, but still a bigoted racists. He worked for many years as a Prison Officer at Sydney's Long Bay Jail. He said, he liked nothing better than to find "a Darkie hanging in his cell in the morning". I got the impression from this old chap that the death was not always suicide.

Pauliar,

Gun ownership in New Zealand is almost as lax as in the US yet the murder rate is a fraction of that in the US. The correlation is not as clear as you make it out.

SM, you must be on drugs, I never mentioned New Zealand. Anyway, America has 50 states and 50 different sets of gun laws, New Zealand has one set. In 43 US states owning assault weapons is legal, owning of such weapons is illegal in all of New Zealand. On your recent pilgrimage to Christchurch, if you had tried to purchase a semiautomatic shotgun similar to the one used by the Christchurch killer Brenton Tarrant, and freely available in the US, you would be have been denied. To say; "Gun ownership in New Zealand is almost as lax as in the US" is in your word balderdash!

BTW; Are you still claiming Labor can't form a majority government. Can I suggest the name Shonky The Shocker! You're so good with predictions, you should give up your day job at the undertakers, and take up Fortune-telling.

PAUL1405 - I'm forever amazed at some of the detritus that pours forth from your mouth? Is it true they've dubbed you the village idiot down your way?

Have you any idea, the extent & nature of the various auditory processes the police & prison officers have scrutinising them in these times? If your cap's not on straight, you're on paper!

I'll give you one thing PAUL1405, you have a vivid imagination. Have you ever thought about writing some children's books? Probably best if you stick to mythology, folklore, and legend, rather than trying to engender authenticity, rationality, and fact. The 'Hanging Prison Officer'! You are, without doubt, so, so, amusing PAUL1405.

Oh I nearly forgot. You blathering on about my remarks concerning 'you' and the Vietnam War. Nothing specific really. Other than to highlight your character PAUL1405, and your exhaustive efforts, to avoid being called up, to do your National Service during that period, is all. So just relax, and later, return to your commune.

The Person/o sung wu,

It would be easy for "me" through the entity Paul1405 to retaliate with similar snide comments in relation to "you" the person with involvement in militarism, occupational employment, political opinions, or even your age. As you unleash personal derision and mockery on "me", it would be oh so easy to unleash upon "you" in retaliation, and yes I am tempted, and yes "you" by your disclosures of a personal nature would be a very easy target to lampoon. However as much as "you" would like "me" to, I'm not going to do that, as it serves no purpose to ridicule an entity such as yourself (o sung wu), who has no meaning to "me" the person, like all of "us" you are simply "here" as o sung wu and of no consequence as far as "me" the person is concerned. Every time I read the venomous comments of the entity o sung wu, I realise they are directed at the entity Paul1405 and are ineffectual against "me" the person. To make it simple, call it the 'Armadillo Principle'.

Traditionally old men like Putin and others send young men off to fight, kill and die in wars. If young men refuse to go regardless of the consequences there will be no more wars. I regard those who have refused to go as heroic figures. One such man was an Austrian who paid with his life for his opposition. He was a brave man.

"Franz Jägerstätter, O.F.S. (also spelled Jaegerstaetter in English; born Franz Huber, 20 May 1907 – 9 August 1943) was an Austrian conscientious objector during World War II. Jägerstätter was sentenced to death and executed for his refusal to fight for Nazi Germany. He was later declared a martyr and beatified by the Catholic Church."

Read about him. I got the above info about him on the net. You can also. Many men go because they would be shamed if they didn't. Such was the cooee march that encouraged many young Australians to go and die in WW1.

https://cooeemarch1915.com/

I don't know the circumstances by which Paul1405 avoided service in Vietnam. He may be a heroic figure also.

If people refuse to go to war, wars will stop. It is that simple.

PAUL1405...

An elderly Chinese gentleman now deceased, gave me the moniker after he watched me fight at South Sydney Juniors, many years ago. They used to hold regular fight nights there. And 'o sung wu' is Mandarin. And it's my understanding it means something 'warrior', or similar?

Clearly PAUL1405, I've upset you, for that I'm dreadfully sorry. And as I'm fearful of being lampooned by your acerbic wit and tongue. Therefore I think I should make a tactical withdrawal, lest you throw another hissy-fit and burst into tears, taking your keyboard home in a fit of real pique.

You know, PAUL1405, your tantrums will not be tolerated indefinitely. There'll come a time, when a responsible adult will come along, exhausted by your juvenile behaviour, lower your shorts, and smack your backside for you. After which send you into the naughty corner, without any tea. Until you learn to be more respectful to the other folk herein.

C'mon DAVID F.

Please sir, don't give me that baloney. We both know why he didn't register for National Service. Legitimate Consciences Objectors, register for N. S. and are invariably placed in a Corps and given a job that won't interfere with their beliefs.

Todays ADF is full of C.O, and they all do their duty. No sir, our boy is just a craven coward, and nothing less.

Dear o sung wu,

I respect you. You sound like a responsible man. I also respect Paul1405.

I hope both of you will respect each other. I was a soldier in WW2. It didn't end war. It didn't end hate.

One of the tragedies of war is that we will likely become like the enemy if we conquer them. I see the US bestriding the world triumphantly with a bloated military, avoiding being taken to task by the International Criminal Court after participating in War Crimes trials that judged the Nazis. If the Nazis had won it would have been horrible. However, defeating them by force of arms resulted in another horror.

I see no reasonable alternative but to provide Ukraine with weapons to fight off the Russian army.

Can we feel sorrow for those damaged by war whatever side they are on? Can we be kind to each other in online opinion?

Sadly some see kindness as weakness.

Dear o sung wu,

During the Vietnamese War we visited Underwood Prison which held men who opposed the war in Vietnam and refused to register for the draft. The meeting was set up in the prison chapel. Those who refused to register for the draft did not recognise the legitimacy of a government which was carrying on what they considered an illegal war. There was one group of prisoners who we did not meet. We did not meet with Jehovah's Witnesses whose beliefs did not allow them to enter the chapel.

You wrote of 'legitimate consciences objectors'. None of the prisoners that I did and did not meet fulfilled the classification of legitimacy. Maybe they all were craven cowards. I don't think so.

Hi DAVID F...

You know I respect you and I respect your scholarship. I don't mind a bit who attacks me as an individual, it happens and I just cop it. You'll notice STEELEREDUX and me are generally at each others throats as we're generally polar worlds apart. None the less I like the the man and though we cast a few barbs at one another, I believe him to be a fundamentally good guy.

Now PAUL1405, is an altogether different kettle fish, he likes to attack and smear a whole police force, one which has the ten largest number of sworn members in the Western World. About 15,000 sworn police officers, by far the largest in Australia. Accusing them of all manner of criminal conduct, without ever furnishing one scintilla of evidence in support of those allegations. And he's rarely ever brought to account as a result of it..

Moreover the facts his claimed, are both distorted and screwed. His latest little effort, is to accuse police of quote 'hanging a black fella' in police cells, all on the evidence of some decrepit 90 year ol' screw apparently who worked at Long Bay 'Jail' (sic) back in the day. Despite your entreaties DAVID F. I've yet to turn the screws on this pitiful 'gentleman'.

And I would like to think the moderator(s) would allow this pantomime to play itself out. Should I be barred, so be it. I submit very little to the Site these days anyway, despite my lengthy association with it. Let the games begin PAUL1405!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Palm_Island_death_in_custody
2004 Palm Island death in custody

The 2004 Palm Island death in custody incident relates to the death of an Aboriginal resident of Palm Island, Cameron Doomadgee (also known as "Mulrunji") on Friday, 19 November 2004 in a police cell.[1] The death of Mulrunji led to civic disturbances on the island and a legal, political and media sensation that continued for fourteen years.
The Attorney-General of Queensland, Kerry Shine, indicted an Australian police officer for a criminal trial for the first time since the public prosecutor's office was established. The officer, Senior Sergeant Chris Hurley, who was charged for a death in custody, was acquitted by an all-white[2] jury in June 2007. Hurley medically retired from the Gold Coast station of the Queensland Police in 2017[3] following a string of charges while serving as a police officer including assault and dangerous driving.
Police raids and behaviour following the community riot were found to have breached the Racial Discrimination Act 1975, with a record class action settlement of A$30 million awarded to victims in May 2018.
Two legal questions arose from the death; firstly, whether the taking into custody of Mulrunji was lawful, and secondly, whether the injuries that led to his death were illegally caused by the arresting officer.

Politically, this event raised questions relating to the federal government's 1987–1991 Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody and whether its recommendations to prevent deaths in custody had been implemented by the government.

The death of Cameron Doomadgee

Cameron Doomadgee, an Aboriginal Australian, was aged 36 when he died, at about 11:20am on Palm Island, one hour after being picked up for allegedly causing a public nuisance. Mulrunji was placed in the two-cell lockup which was the back section of the Palm Island Police Station. Fellow Palm Islander Patrick Bramwell was placed in the adjoining cell.

The arresting officer, Senior Sergeant Chris Hurley, and the Indigenous police liaison officer, Lloyd Bengaroo, were flown off the island the following Monday, after receiving death threats and Hurley's house being burned down.

continued

continued

This was the 147th death of an Aboriginal person in custody since the handing down of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody.

An autopsy report by Coroner Michael Barnes was produced for the family one week after the death. It stated that Mulrunji had suffered four broken ribs, which had ruptured his liver and spleen, it also found that the body's blood alcohol content was 0.29 from a cocktail of alcohol including methylated spirits mixed with sweet cordial.[12] The family of the deceased were informed by the Coroner that the death was the result of "an intra-abdominal haemorrhage caused by a ruptured liver and portal vein".

It sure looks like Chris Hurley murdered Cameron Doomadgee or Mulrunji. Hurley never received any punishment. Read the whole article.

Dear sung you wrote: "Moreover the facts his claimed, are both distorted and screwed. His latest little effort, is to accuse police of quote 'hanging a black fella' in police cells, all on the evidence of some decrepit 90 year ol' screw apparently who worked at Long Bay 'Jail' (sic) back in the day. Despite your entreaties DAVID F. I've yet to turn the screws on this pitiful 'gentleman'."

What I cited above was not evidence of a decrepit 90 year ol' screw. Apparently Chris Hurley murdered an Aborigine and got away with it.

Hi there DAVID F...

Yes Sir, I'm well aware of the Palm Island Case. I've read the book titled; 'Gone for a Song' and yet another called the 'Tall Man' both books dealt with the Palm Island tragedy and or crime. What is it you want me to say DAVID F. In law those police concerned we cleared? So they have no case to answer. Are you saying the gentleman concerned was murdered by the police?aIf so how would you know DAVID F? Where's your evidence or is your opinion is based on heresay and a journalist's account of the tragedy?

May I ask you sir, why it is you're so strongly supporting PAUL1405? Is it a fact you support his position rather more with mine? I should remind you, DAVID F, PAUL1405's allegedly empircal evidence was from this 90 year old ex screw from Long Bay 'Jail'. Which is judicially in NSW, not in the State of Qld., where the Palm Island tragedy occurred? It's curious how we can construct all measure of facts, that suit our own narrative and belief system hey DAVID F? I'll bid you good night, Sir, in readiness of Round One, on the morrow!

Dear o sung wu,

I have witnessed none of it. I look up things and am wary about what to believe. I know some police are extremely prejudiced. I talked with one of them at the Strathpine RR station. He was an immigrant from South Africa and talked about the Kaffirs. I would not like to be a black man in his custody. I was in California riding in a car with my son. He was going hell for leather. A siren sounded, and a cop got us to pull over. "Did you know you were going way over the speed limit?" My son said, "I'm very sorry, officer. I didn't realize it." My son as well as I and the officer were all blond and blue-eyed. My son and the officer had a bit of a chitchat about sports. Then the cop told us to drive on and be aware of our speed. I had the feeling that were we black or Hispanic-appearing the encounter would not have ended so pleasantly. Maybe my feeling was not justified.

Few of us are angels or devils. Police are human, and some of them are bent. Many are not. Paul is molded by his experiences. Paul has a connection with the Maori. You are molded by your experiences. I am molded by my experiences. Let's cut each other a little slack.

I sympathise with Aborigines because I think they have had a tough time in this country. My mother was a teacher in the St. Regis Indian Reservation in the US. That was over a hundred years ago, and Indian kids were not supposed to talk in their language on school grounds. Aborigines have had a tough time in many countries. This country was settled with a war on the Aborigines. In the Australian War Memorial I don't think it is remembered. I think it should be.

I hope this isn't round 1, and we can discuss our differences without rancor.

Pauliar,

I guess that having got your drug habit in jail you are unable to stop, but it must be hard to fund on welfare. Maybe it is why you are illiterate as well. I said ALMOST as lax.

In NZ there is no ban on handguns and many of the weapons responsible for gun deaths in the US. If I wanted to buy a handgun, shotgun or rifle I could do so. And even before the ban on semi-automatic assault rifles, gun crime was never anywhere near the level in the US.

I guess the reason that you never mentioned New Zealand is because it blew a hole in your argument.

o sung wu,

"Clearly PAUL1405, I've upset you", No, I have no emotional attachment to you through your 'nick' what so ever, I neither love or hate you, so you can't upset me. My wife can upset me, my kids can upset, my grandchildren can upset me, even my friends can upset me. As you are in none of these categories, by definition you can't upset me.

From your posting history what have I learnt about you, a militarist, a copper, a boxer, is there a tendency towards violence here? Possibly, as a lad you may have been the school yard bully, not an unreasonable conclusion to draw, given your disclosed violent history.

You said; "when I was still with the detectives, a unique form of justice would prevail"

Steele came back with; "You (o sung wu) are of course not going to hear from me support for police delivering summary justice"

I added my opinion; "There is no excuse for the issuing of "summary justice" by police"

Then in a totally unprovoked tirade you unleashed on me; "Therefore PAUL1405, my loathing, my utter revulsion, and disgust for you, really has no bounds. Other than your blatant cowardice for dodging National Service for fear of being sent to South Vietnam. I dunno PAUL1405, Your craven conscience must be forever scarred. You truly are, an abominable human being." I don't know how you acted In Vietnam or in the police force when it came to dishing out your version of justice. As for mental health issues, I'm sure you have your demons, something that only you can deal with, but at 80 years of age it may be too late. You can find no malice in my posts towards you.

cont

cont

As for conscription, I was required to register by the end of 1972, as I was turning 20 in the first half of 1973. I had no intention of registering. I was a pacifist, I had a cousin killed in Vietnam, one of the 521 young Australians needlessly killed in an unjust war, and I was opposed to the Vietnam war, involving myself in protests many times. You say I was dodging conscription, in fact the opposite was the case, failure to register meant automatic conscription, by registering you stood a 1 in 8 chance of being conscripted. Mates of mine did register, although they opposed the war, in the hope they would be in the lucky 7. Fortunately Whitlam came to power in December 1972 and abolished conscription. The Coalition had been conscripting young men of 20 years of age, but refused to give them the vote at the same time.

Since the May 14th mass shooting at the 'Tops Supermarket' in Buffalo New York, by a white supremacist where 10 people were killed and 3 injured. There have been 38 mass shootings in the US, resulting in 62 deaths and 160 injured. NOTHING TO SEE HERE!

Paul,
There is something to see, the US murder rate is low, so why pick on them?
One would think that you’d be more concerned about people in countries where the rate is up to ten times higher and where they have much tighter gun laws.

PNG for example, our closest neighbour, where the murder rate is near twice that of the US and nine times our’s.

Murder In America, basically a black on black thing.

We need to be sure we don't import it.

http://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country
SteeleRedux,
Re your argument of the situation in Switzerland & Europe in general, the graph doesn't show how many of the perpetrators are in fact Swiss or European !

Oh dear Oh dear PAUL1405...

You claim I can't upset you? Then why not ignore me? Clearly, I do get under your skin.

Now I'm the school yard bully because I was a boxer ? Or do you think it's possible I became a boxer because I was bullied in the school yard? Only a thought you understand. Yes I agree, Gough WHITLAM come to power, and saved many of you alleged C O's. from a 28 day break in 1 MCE, Holsworthy.

I knew a couple of Conscientious Objectors in the Army, who served with honour, in non-combatant roles, who marched proudly every ANZAC Day with their unit. And who in turn vocally opposed the war, and condemned in equal measure those who claimed to be C. Os.

There was a school teacher, (whose name escapes me) from memory, who was sent to 1 MCE at Holsworthy. And they had to let him out fearing he'd topple over with the stress of it all. Yup PAUL1405 you're in good company.

And you proudly protested against the war too? Did they strike a gong especially for you, to mark the extreme courage you demonstrated at the very front of the noisy protesters?

I dunno PAUL1405, now you've got DAVID F seemingly in your corner, probably the smartest individual on the site, but clearly hoodwinked by your protestations.

But despite what's all said and done - I know your kind. PAUL1405 It was you, and your communist wharfie mates, that orchestrated the interruption of the loading of the HMAS Japarit, laden with priceless personal letters, parcels, and gifts, for the troops in SV. from ever reaching some of them in time, as they'd been killed during the delay.

Oh yeah, DAVID F has sure picked a real gem to support, in you PAUL1405. Still, the other contributors herein, will at least know a little more of your character when you bore them all silly with your wit and your sewer effluence !

Dear Individual,

Your say:

"SteeleRedux,
Re your argument of the situation in Switzerland & Europe in general, the graph doesn't show how many of the perpetrators are in fact Swiss or European !"

I'm really not sure how to respond to this.

The graph shows gun related deaths in Switzerland for 2022 sit at 258, 4 less than Australia. But Switzerland has less than a third the population we do.

Turns out the Swiss are shooting themselves in the head at three and a half times the rate Australians are and the murder rate in both countries is tiny in comparison.

I would venture to say the vast majority of those committing the offence of suicide are either Swiss or European. What do you think?

From Indyvidual's link...

Interesting...

Gun-related violence occurs all around the world, including (to a lesser extent) countries in which guns are illegal. Gun deaths are considered an epidemic in the United States (which leads the world in civilian gun ownership) by many people, particularly those on the left side of the political spectrum.

Countries with the Highest Rates of Violent Gun Death (Homicides) per 100k residents in 2019

El Salvador — 36.78
Venezuela — 33.27
Guatemala — 29.06
Colombia — 26.36
Brazil — 21.93
Bahamas — 21.52
Honduras — 20.15
U.S. Virgin Islands — 19.40
Puerto Rico — 18.14
Mexico — 16.41

Gun violence in Latin America is exceptionally high, due in no small part to the prevalence of criminal gangs and a vibrant drug trafficking industry. The Inter-American Development Bank released a report highlighting several critical factors in Latin American cities that contribute to increased gun violence, including economic deprivation, residential instability, family disruption, absence from school, the population’s age structure, and alcohol consumption.

Gangs are much less of an issue in the United States- Many people understandably assume the high number of gun deaths in the U.S. is due to mass shootings, which receive frequent attention from the media. In truth, mass shootings account for only a small percentage of gun deaths in the United States. Rather, nearly two-thirds (63%) of gun deaths in the US in 2019 were suicides.

G'day STEELEREDUX...

I heard you say the 'offence of suicide'? I thought suicide had been decriminalised all around the Western World? It has been here for some years now. Once we'd take a potential suicide victim to one of the admission centres, in any of the large Psychiatric Hospitals here in Sydney, whereupon they were usually scheduled by two Doctors under the Mental Health Act.

Not a bad process really it gives the individual time to calm down, and receive some proper medication. I always feel sorry for many of these people. A case of 'There but through the grace of God go I'. I recall one poor bloke who complained to us in the car, when we were transporting him to one of these psych. centres. He said when you're physically ill, people will often go out of their way to help you. But when you suffer from a Psychiatric Illness it can't be seen, only the symptoms, and people are less caring.

Suicide is not an offence, it is therefore legal, but it’s probably the only legal act that it is an offence to give assistance in doing.

If gun ownership was made compulsory then many like me would simply make the gun unworkable and therefore no danger to anyone. I agree with 'pro-gun' that owing a gun in itself doesn't mean that a person is going to shoot themselves or others, that is fortunate, imagine the carnage if everyone opened up on everyone else. What uncontrolled gun ownership does, it gives the mentally disturbed the means to inflict death on themselves and others. That death could result from an act of suicide, family violence, accidental shooting, during the carrying out of a crime, or an uncontrolled act against strangers.

The lax gun laws in America simply places the means to commit barbaric acts into the hands of nutters. CM made a good point;

"several critical factors in Latin American cities that contribute to increased gun violence, including economic deprivation, residential instability, family disruption, absence from school, the population’s age structure, and alcohol consumption."

When you add guns to that mix of social depravity and other factors, then there can only be one outcome, a mass number of shootings.

o sung wu

"You (Paul1405) claim I (o sung wu) can't upset you? Then why not ignore me? Clearly, I do get under your skin."

No, we are two different kinds of people, you with violence as your first reaction, thinking your ranting and raving against me must upset me somehow, as that's what you are use to in life, upsetting others. If you look back at our exchanges this time, you will not find one angry word from me against you, from you against me there are many, but that's okay with me. For you a strong emotion is hate, I don't suffer that emotion, well I try always to avoid it. You will find what I am about to say silly. I feel in recent years the study of Buddhist principles, along with meditation, most days I get up at 4am and when the sun is coming up I go down by the water with my wife and spend time in meditation, a time for thought, a time for music, reading, and a time for relaxation. I do not claim I have reached a stage in life of true 'enlightenment' but I do feel a sense of 'nirvana' in my life. I am not there in my life's journey and will probably expire before I do reach it, if I was ever going to make the pinnacle of life. As I said you probably find what I have said nonsense, well that's fine as well.

I find myself judging you and that's not a good thing, for that I apologise.

Dear o sung wu.

In the Vietnamese War many on both sides fought bravely and well. However, the way I see it, just as the French, Dutch and Belgians wanted the Nazis out of their countries the people in southeast Asia wanted the Europeans out of their countries. We had no more business in southeast Asia than the Germans had in France, Holland and Belgium. I feel it was wrong to support that war as a combatant or non-combatant. The spectre of communism was raised. Those who opposed the war or who got out of going were called cowards. My opinion is that we had no legitimate business there. My older son would have gone. His cousins went. He told me he would not have wanted to miss 'the experience of his generation.' Fortunately, the war was over before he was old enough to go. I am glad you survived that war, and I hope there will be fewer wars.

Hi David,

All wars are a failure, they are the end result of human failure. My older brother missed out on conscription, a cousin was not so lucky and paid for it with his life. The sons of the wealthy avoid conscription by the use of deferment, mostly through university courses.

"would not have wanted to miss 'the experience of his generation"

Sounds like WWI all over again, a holiday to Europe. Robert Menzies although a supporter of Australian involvement in WWI failed to enlist. John Howard at the time a young enthusiastic supporter of Australia's involvement in Vietnam, when the time came for him to enlist chose to hide out in London instead.

In one of Michael Moore's docos's 'Fahrenheit 9/11', he tried to ask dozens of US Congressman and Senators who had sons of military age why they were not serving, the politicians ran for cover, it seemed that only one had a son in the military, the rest were being kept out.

Paul,
When are you, or someone else, going to explain why countries with strict firearm laws have a murder rate far exceeding that of the USA?

It can’t be low income because 40 million in the US earn less than the Australian minimum wage.

committing the offence of suicide are either Swiss or European
SteeleRedux,
That'd be the most likely scenario but, why ? Could it be because the majority of crimes there are committed by non-Swiss, non-European & the Swiss & Europeans just had a gutful ?

Hi Issy,

I'm sure if we armed 100 million people like you and me the murder rate would be zero, as we have no propensity to kill people, and that applies to the vast majority of folks who already have a gun at their disposal. We may however accidentally shoot ourselves, you while running away from 'Roger' that notorious scrum bully, and me whilst trying to bend the barrel of my gun around 180 deg. I couldn't say the same if we armed 100 million Martin Bryant's. BTW how many gun owners in Australia fit the profile of a Martin (Ticking Time Bomb) Bryant? Zero, 1, 10, 100, 1000, don't know. You can answer that question.

You asked; "When are you, or someone else, going to explain why countries with strict firearm laws have a murder rate far exceeding that of the USA?"

I did answer that question with this;

The lax gun laws in America simply places the means to commit barbaric acts into the hands of nutters. CM made a good point;

"several critical factors in Latin American cities that contribute to increased gun violence, including economic deprivation, residential instability, family disruption, absence from school, the population’s age structure, and alcohol consumption."

When you add guns to that mix of social depravity and other factors, then there can only be one outcome, a mass number of shootings.

Without a gun, generally some sort of automatic weapon it's very difficult to shoot large numbers of people/children, in fact its impossible.

Paul,
In quite a lot of the US school shootings the murderer gained access to a class room and if only armed with a knife (the gun that never runs out of bullets) could have killed just as many children and teachers because the teachers had no way to defend themselves.

Obviously, from what you say strict gun laws have no effect.
El Salvador and Australia have strict gun laws yet the murder rate in that country is fifty (50) times as high as Australia.

The US Presidential Idiot is talking about banning “assault rifles” and they haven’t yet defined an assault rifle.

PAUL1405 would simply make the guns unworkable would you? And how exactly would you do that? A 'Bolt' as far as a F/A's concerned is an integral piece of that F/A it doesn't mean run away, and hide PAUL1405 a practice you're well attuned.

And now you've found Buddhism. You hope to practice it's precepts and tenants so you may reach a state of nirvana? A worthy objective perhaps for you. Myself I don't have that luxury, I have to face the real world, come what may, like most ordinary folk need to do on a daily basis. It's called pragmatism.

Congratulations on your new team. Have you thought of a suitable name? Being a tag team you must surely put your own stamp of approval on it, lest it might be coveted by another. How about the incomparable, THE...' DAVID F & PAUL1405 ' TAG team of the century! Champions of the LEFT & PURVEYORS of PEACE.

I guess there's some truth in what you've both said. Violence has always been a way of life for most of my existence. And sometimes that violence, in what ever form, instead of being an anathema to me, like it is for most in our community, it just overflows as a plausible solution.

I guess I too, need to look inwards and undertake some legitimate soul searching of myself before I cast too many barbs against others? I was a regular at the Vietnam Veterans Counselling Service, at the Repat. here in Melbourne. I was part of the Nightmare group. And the buggers changed it's name and direction, and they opened it up to include all vets.irrespective where they served. Vietnam Veterans have their own unique form of demons. In so much as we had many of the enemy right here on our streets, calling us baby killers, and worse! It get's you down after a while.

Paul,
You’d do better to ask how.many ticking time bombs are likely copiers of Robert Paul Long, (Childers fire, 15 dead) what with the completely unrestricted availability of highly flammable liquids, igniters and timing devices (both electrical and mechanical).
Not forgetting the simple candle which leaves no evidence, the average household candle gives the arsonist 4 hours to get well away.
Good reliable timers to start a fire remotely are even on sale in Op-Shops.
I saw a 24 hour timer in St Vinnies only a week ago.
Arson is on the rise in Australia, what are your lot doing to combat this rising trend?

Dear o sung wu,

There are too many of my own family whose lives have been changed for the worse by Vietnam for me to feel good about it. Hindsight is 20-20. My cousin Richard planned to make his life in the US military. He got out because of Vietnam & has been drifting ever since. He has borrowed money from most of the family and has not paid it back. We have killed many Vietnamese, and they have killed many of us us. I say 'we' because even though I wasn't there there have been a lot of people who I have been close to who were there. I thing we were terribly, terribly wrong. Just as the Brits let India go we should have let Vietnam go. You have been marked by your experiences. You can't change the past. We have been on opposite sides, but we are both human. My cousin told me about the washerwoman who came on the base with grenades under her clothing. She was caught before she could use them. It was a rotten, stinking unjustified war, and I sympathise with those on both sides who suffered and died. You and I don't have to be enemies now.

Hi there DAVID F... My friend, you and me, were never enemies. Just two gentlemen attempting to discuss the impossible, the Vietnam War, it's causes and effect.

What made a lot of vets upset was the reception they received when the returned home from the war.

I think it was 3 RAR on completion of their first tour. They were marching through the streets of Sydney, and a woman suddenly rushed out and threw red paint all over the uniform of the Major, who was leading the march, as he took the general salute outside the Sydney Town Hall. I wasn't there, so I can only pass on to you, what was reported by the media. Personally I think that was a disgusting act, that desecrated the ARA Uniform and those who've worn it. I understand, despite the red paint, he marched on, and took the General Salute, without missing a beat. A soldier's soldier in my opinion DAVID F.

On another occasion, also on an ANZAC Day, My wife and I had just parked the Car and we were walking down the road to where my Unit had assembled, prior to the March. There were three or four well dressed young women, in their early twenties, walking towards us, and as they drew closer, they suddenly stopped and started hurling abuse at me, calling me a rapist, a baby killer, and other terrible accusations.

And this all occurred in the middle of the Sydney CBD, prior to the commencement of the ANZAC Day March. My now deceased wife ended up in tears, and as a result I didn't march that year. Had I been on duty I would've arrested the lot of them and put them before the Court. ANZAC Day is a solemn day for most Aussies DAVID.F. But I'm sure you know that. Thanks DAVID F., we're good my friend.

o sung wu,

Your claim of being pragmatic to me is untrue, from what I read in your posts. You dwell in the past and lack the capability to judge things with relevance, I would call you dogmatic. Your only defence is a violent one, on this forum you can only engage in verbal violence through the written word. Due to your advancing years you probably are no longer capable of engaging in physical violence against those you disagree with, but you probably like to think you are still capable of that at the age of 80, the old man wielding a walking stick or some such weapon.

As for Buddhism it is in fact a earthly pursuit with the emphasis on the individual.

As for being the school yard bully, I said "possibly" and didn't claim it was a fact, but to take on personal victim hood you did. As coppers like to say "he fits the profile". I can see on here how you engage in classic bullying tactics with others, first its the tirade of abuse towards a poster you disagree with, after they have cringed a bit to explain themselves to you, comes your soft soap towards them with words of kindness. Its all part of you need to subjugate others.

I'll let you into a little secret, some days back I emailed a friend of mine who is a retired Psychologist, saying follow this thread on OLO and the exchanges between o sung wu, david f and myself, I said I see a classic online bully among us. Giving him what background I could, about you and David. He, not in an unkindly way sees you as a somewhat "problem person" . After reading your Friday morning post attacking david f as being an ally of mine, it was more of a warning to david f he predicted how david f would reply and then how you would reply. I got to say my friend was spot on with what sorts of replies to expect towards each other. Interesting.

Hi Issy,

You have no answer to gun control, so you deflect to nonsense, I could add to your list flights of stairs as someone could be thrown down those stairs and killed. The only defence of guns the Gun Nuts have is the "NOTHING TO SEE HERE" rubbish.

US President Biden has called for a public ban on ASSAULT WEAPONS, do you agree with Biden? What are your reasons to agree or disagree.

I agree with Biden, my reason is, they remove the means of mass killing from the hands of Gun Nuts. Where do you stand on that.

Dear Paul1405,

Although I'm not a Bible basher in general I find occasional wisdom in it. The following is for your consideration.

Matthew 7. [1] Judge not, that ye be not judged. [2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Paul,
What’s nonsensical about arson and the means to achieve it?
Why do you attack the US when they have, by World standards, a low rate of firearms crime, enviably low in fact.
I’ll comment on “assault rifles” when there is some agreement on a definition.
The do-gooders ought to concentrate on the countries with the high murder rates, such as our friend, ally and border sharing neighbour PNG, or does their skin colour make them unimportant.
Why do so many countries with strict firearms laws have such high murder rates?

Thanks David,

I try not to be judgemental, and even though I often fail in that regard I do try not to be vindictive with that judgement. I attend bible study most Wednesday nights, not because I am a believer, but because I seek answers in life. and there is much in Christian teaching I admire. What often strikes me after a passage is read and interpretation is called for, is the deafening silence within the room. I speak up quite often.

Something to consider;

PROVERBS 26:24-28

24 He who hates, disguises it with his lips. And lays up deceit within himself.
25 When he speaks kindly, do not believe him. For there are seven abominations in his heart.
26 Though his hatred is covered by deceit. His wickedness will be revealed before the assembly.
27 Whoever digs a pit will fall into it. And he who rolls a stone will have it roll back on him.
28 A lying tongue hates those who are not crushed by it. And a flattering mouth works ruin.

It is my turn in a couple of weeks time to lead the group, I now have 2 quotes to offer for interpretation. Judgement and hate can be my theme for discussion.

cont

Paul,
Tijuana, Mexico, has a murder rate of 138 per 100,000 residents the closest US city is St Louis with 60/100,000.
Mexico has strict gun laws.
How do you explain why the country with the less strict laws has a much lower murder rate?

cont

Interesting, on my first night and being a Paul, it was surprising that the discussion was centred about St Paul, I was asked what I thought of Paul the Apostle...."Soul of Tarsus, in my opinion the true founder of Christianity, I went on for five minutes as to why I believed that. There were those that were not in agreement, and there were those who could see merit, if not belief, in my argument. Last Wednesday we had a lively discussion about the 'Holy Spirit', I said for some he's like Casper the Ghost with his head on fire. The discussion was lively, and went into overtime. I am gaining so much from this. Going to a Baptists gathering the other Thursday, listening to a talk from a now Christian ex drug and alcohol addict, he laid it all bare for 45 minutes. Well worth the admission price of a gold coin. I had a similar discussion with a now Buddhist nun in her forties some time back, her failings with drugs and alcohol and then finding her way in life about 15 years back through Buddhism. Both are now totally worthy human beings, one finding their path through Christianity, the other through Buddhism. Different ways but the same outcome.

Applying your logic Issy, the tiny Tasmanian town of Port Arthur had a murder rate of 14,000 per 100,000 residents, before John Howard's gun laws, the closest Mexican town Tijuana has only 138 per 100,000 and Tijuana is not in a scrub bull roar of Port Arthur. Since John Howard's gun laws were introduced the murder rate in Port Arthur has dropped to zero per 100,000. Could it have anything to do with the fact the crazed gun nut job Martin Bryant and folk hero of gunnies is locked up?

When is your mob the SSAA going to apologise for the active part their members played in the murders of the children Jack and Jennifer Edwards at the hands of a crazy gun nut and member of the SSAA John Edwards. If John Edwards was a member, you may have many more like minded people in the organisation. How many do you think, you just don't know do you.

Paul.
Argumentum ad absurdam.

Interesting PAUL1405...

You attend Bible Studies on Wednesday nights , though you're not a believer, you attend, because you wish to find answers in something, in which you don't believe? Elements of the Christian Doctrine? That's you ol' son, conflicted in fact and incongruous in life. You're a true intellect aren't you!

You say I'm too old to physically defend myself, albeit I'm such a violent individual. That's true. There again, being so violent and after eighteen months in Malaysia (Thai/Malay Border against the Communist Terrorists) and twelve months in South Vietnam, and 32 years in the police force. perhaps you too might well need the aid of a cane to get about. I don't, as I'm in a wheelchair most times, other than when I'm at home.

I dwell on the past so claims his Eminence, PAUL1405 purveyor of all ecclesiastical knowledge, much of which he doesn't believe. Maybe. Hindsight and experience is a great teacher. Without the past, however will we learn to prepare us for the future?

I've got to admit PAUL1405, I feel utterly delighted even gratified to think I dwell so intently in your innermost thoughts, that you'd even bother to discuss me with your retired Psychologist playmate to diagnose? I believe DSM V is considered to be the benchmark in this country. But in case you're wondering just how violent, unhinged and dangerous I might be; may I refer you to the; Daniel McNAUGHTEN Judgement of 1843, where a series of rules if you like, quantify in law, insanity in our (British) Jurisprudence here in Oz.

I also believe I owe you a sincere vote of thanks PAUL1405. I've badly underestimated you. But nevertheless, I'm so surprised and happy, that In your own quiet time, all your thoughts, once more, return to me, and my continued welfare. I didn't know you cared? Still and all, despite this late demonstration of affection, I still think you were a very naughty boy to dodge your National Service. Once upon a time, you'd be consigned to the naughty corner to allow you to reflect upon that naughtiness.

Paul,
If you have any information that SSAA members played an active part in murder then you have a duty to report such behaviour.
If you don’t then you should apologise for casting such a slur.

I suggest that you read the Coroner’s report on the Edwards murders and stop contradicting that law officer’s legal findings.

o sung wu

There are three poisons in life, GREED, HATE and IGNORANCE. Unfortunately I see all three in you, GREED; your desire to maintain the World as yours, HATE; your loathing of those different, IGNORANCE; not knowing what is in others.

When you hold these three poisons in your heart and mind it is you who suffers to the greater extent because of them, and not others. You are not alone in this, we all share these same poisons throughout our lives, but the secret is to recognise the negativity and pain they cause, and to overcome them, not an easy task. This is something I have learnt from Buddhism.

I can learn from Christianity, I can learn from Buddhism, I can learn from people, even you. To say; "are you a believer or disbeliever" is not an absolute when it comes to any religion. You can make use of religious concepts contained therein, and at the same time not believe in certain aspects of that religion. I can believe in "love your neighbour" and at the same time not believe in "God", they are not interdependent on each other, they are singly separate concepts.

Thank you PAUL1405...

I trust this is a case of 'here endeth the lesson' - that which you've been preaching to me PAULIE ad infinitum. I'm sorry but its becoming highly nauseating and I'm running short of Band Aids for my bleeding ears.

Greed, Hate and Ignorance is a heavy load for an 80 year old to bear you know? So can I assume you're prepared to step-up and at do the Christian; Buddhist, and Atheist thing, and at least, give me some financial succour in place of you wise counsel. Thus lightening the burden, even just a little for this doddering ol' man?

And pray tell us PAULIE, when's the second riveting chapter of PAULIE'S dictum on rendering guns permanently inoperably. So far your processes have been breathtaking and oh so exciting.

Paul1405 said-

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=9825#334486

CM made a good point;

"several critical factors in Latin American cities that contribute to increased gun violence, including economic deprivation, residential instability, family disruption, absence from school, the population’s age structure, and alcohol consumption."

When you add guns to that mix of social depravity and other factors, then there can only be one outcome, a mass number of shootings.

Without a gun, generally some sort of automatic weapon it's very difficult to shoot large numbers of people/children, in fact its impossible.

Answer- Actually it wasn't "CM" that made the point. The text was from Indyvidual's link.
http://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/gun-deaths-by-country

The reason I quoted the text in the link was because it indicated that having a firearm doesn't necessarily correlate with gun violence- but that there are other correlating statistical factors to violence- presumeably not only gun violence. Some of them appear to be related to the culture of "freedom" and Liberalism.

There are many cases of economic scarcity in communities that don't translate into sociopathic behavior- but pull the community together to help each other. The sinking boat phenomena.

If the young aren't integrated with the old it can lead to pathological societies without direction or meaning.
Family structures provide duties and benefits- a two sided coin- in a family one person's benefit is another's duty- but there has been a recent phenomena in certain circles of denigrating family- no surprise when the structure of the community falls apart.

When large numbers of people arrive from outside the traditional community structure the community never adapts to the changes and breaks down- certain philosophies see this is beneficial- others denigrate those, especially the old, that warn against change as backward. As John Howard said "we (Australian's should) choose who comes to Australia".

In Population Theory they talk of doubling and the onset of chaos is related to the rate of reproduction.

There are other forms of complexity that can lead to the instability of society

It seems that Communism and Socialism say they want chaos in certain societies. As has been said in Communist playbooks subverting societies takes 4 or 5 stages some of them contradictory.

In history societies were often an extension of the family- or a form of extension.

Thomas Sowell said that black conditions had improved from the 1940's before the Liberal counter culture of the 1960's (minimum wage) and have since declined. Obviously Sowell's comments need to be taken in a mature context.

Ayn Rand implied that Communists and Socialists (Looters and Moochers) create conditions of instability and scarcity and then say "we have to help the poor"- playing both sides against the middle- whereas those that create conditions of excess productivity are denigrated as greedy.

There are people that say that on the scale of a classroom it's better to have a knife than a gun because of the time it takes to aim- note the Trade Centre Terrorists had utility knives

o sung wu,

No problem, I will leave you to your personal deprivation, after all you did start this conversation with me, not I with you.

Hey Is Mise
"Gawd, it’s the Jews again!!"

Zelensky, Hunter Biden — and Their Sugar Daddy, Kolomoisky
http://youtu.be/fUPKZkqXfZI

Kolomoisky has a sister named Larissa Chertok
http://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/oligarch-toys-planes-palaces-other-posh-possessions.html

"Igor Kolomoisky shares Damir Akhmetov’s admiration for Lake Geneva. However, Kolomoisky’s lakeside villa — registered under the name of his sister Larisa Chertok — is much smaller."

Apparently she is the sister of Gregoire Chertok who works for Rothschild.
http://www.institutionalinvestor.com/article/b14zbl0qxk6g6j/grgoire-chertok-plays-banker-to-frances-elite

It is well to remember that in the biggest mass murder in American history no guns were used, only box cutter knives and Mace.

no guns were used
is Mise,
The question is one of Nationality; the atrocity you refer to wasn't committed by Americans !
That's what I put to SteeleRedux who chose not to answer.

By some strange quirk of the internet or perhaps their.news reporting sources missed it the ABC and also the Greens and GCA failed to report this disturbing incident when a lawfully armed civilian stopped a possible mass murder.
Might have been an oversight.

Seems that a convicted felon got a bit upset because he got ticked off for driving fast where there were children playing, he came back armed and opened fire but a woman shot him and he.died from multiple gunshot wounds.
Note that no bystanders were hit, no reports of near misses by poorly aimed shots and the woman didn’t have a law enforcement or service background, apparently just an ordinary civilian.

https://www.carolinacoastonline.com/national/article_07ed7b4e-df96-11ec-a66c-43cf74779b12.html

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/good-gal-with-gun-stops-active-shooter-fatally-shoots-convicted-felon-with-ar/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=20220603_FridayDigest_385&utm_campaign=/digest/good-gal-with-gun-stops-active-shooter-fatally-shoots-convicted-felon-with-ar/

See if this works

With all this brouhaha over Americans having guns, it's part of their culture and naturally, accidents and other fatalities can happen, just as much as they can with M/Vs. I'm not sure of the statistics, but I believe more people are injured or killed in M/V accidents or crimes. So should we ban the car? No we ban the driver. Similar principle with guns; if an individual is found not to be a fit and proper person to be in possession of a F/A then he doesn't get a licence.

It's the individual who operates the gun who kills, not the gun. The gun is merely an inert piece of machinery, requiring a person to operate it. There are all many of implements, apparatus, and technology, if used carelessly or incorrectly, are quite capable of causing serious injury or death.

A firearm is no different. There are many safety features associated with the use of a F/A in this country, that reduces the chance of accidents, or deliberate misadventure. I see no valid reason for a general prohibition on firearms. All reasonable measures have been taken.

The F/A tragedies in the US are wholly lamentable, no doubt about that. A similar thing happened in Bourke Street Melbourne when a deranged driver deliberately drove his M/V into a crowd of shoppers. So should we ban M/Vs as the same logic applies to F/S

For sme reason the hyperlink isn’t working.

If people bred less, fewer idiots would be born & fewer idiots would give idiots the opportunity to ruin peoples' lives !

A gun has no purpose other to wound, kill or threaten. The car's main function is to take people and goods from place to place. the analogy between a car and a gun is faulty. Adequate training of operators of both machines is desirable. Replacing cars with safer and less environmentally damaging means of transport is desirable.

DAVID F...

Describes a gun's main purpose; is to wound, kill or threaten. And in principle I'd agree with the learned gentleman.

My only dilemma - If he, or any of his extended family are threatened with serious injury or death, with what would he use to neutralise that threat? If the Chinese were to attack our nation; what should our military employ, to resist that attack? A negotiated takeover?

It's all fine and highly moralistic, and virtuous of our theoreticians, academics, and others to condemn guns. But every society has a need for them, if for no other reason, as a deterrent. Would you permit police to be armed? The Military? or the Prison Authorities? Etc. Believe me, there will always come a time when you'll need one. And it's very reassuring even comforting to know you're armed when going into darkened premises at night to confront armed intruders?

And for your edification DAVID F. The single greatest threat to society today, is the burgeoning knife culture. Kids as young as ten are carrying knives on their person, even taking them to school? Those handy with tools are now converting standard lock back-knives into switch blades. Making a nice Dollar on the side.

I hope DAVID F this counter view, may give you a better understanding of F/As and their lawful uses in this country. There's a very definite place for them in this country. The military, police prison officials, CIT operatives, and many other lawful reasons in this country.

David F- "A gun has no purpose other to wound, kill or threaten. The car's main function is to take people and goods from place to place. the analogy between a car and a gun is faulty."

Answer- Guns aren't only used for criminal acts- there are other functions- one function or purpose is to protect "the government of the people" from tyranny. Is David F an agent unintended or otherwise of tyranny? Is he like Freud projecting his minority fears on society at large? David F's dangerous crowd.

Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom!

I have no argument with the idea that sometimes a gun is desirable and necessary for protection. I have no argument with the use of arms by people who are trained in the accuracy, safety and effect of such weapons and are mentably. I maintained that the analogy with guns and cars is faulty and still maintain that. Availability of guns without adequate checks is an invitation to their misuse.

Although it is possible and has happened the incidence of suicide by car is less of a problem than the incidence of suicide by gun. Someone contemplating suicide might not do it if the means were not handy. The incidence of a child wounding or killing someone by an inadequately secured gun has happened.

I maintain that the analogy of banning guns and banning cars is faulty. No one who has replied to my post has defended that analogy.

The analogy between banning guns and banning cars is faulty and remains faulty. I would rely on a gun for protection more than a car.

Hi (again) DAVID F.

I'm pleased to see you accept the rightful place for a gun in our community, analogy or otherwise. Which counters the argument of another. That if he were able, he'd destroy all guns as there's no place in society for a gun. An emotional argument I would suggest, from an equally emotional individual.

You assert the incidence of suicide by car is low, whereas the suicide by gun, is relatively higher. Therefore you would also accept the same criterion for the misuse of a car, causing injury or death, is significently higher than that of the gun?

You also assert guns should only be available to those individuals who're properly trained in the accuracy, safety and effect of such weapons, and who're psychologically fit to possess such a weapon. Of course I agree. By and large that's precisely what happens today during the licensing protocol.

Whereas, for a Drivers licence you must do a certain number of hours instruction at the wheel of a car. Pass a theory test, and then a driving test and thats it. And we've all heard, almost daily, of some of the really awful road trauma, that occurs, until our senses are almost inoculated, against hearing anymore details of the terrible road carnage.

FYI DAVID F. There's a thing called the 'reactionary gap' that allows a potential victim, a second or two, to defeat the accuracy of a projectile. An (FBI protocol) it refers only to handguns and handgun calibres. The procedure is generally known only to a few in the military and policing industry.

Dear o sung wu,

I am both an American and Australian citizen. John Howard by his actions reduced the gun carnage in Australia. It seems impossible due to the different structure of laws and political parties in the US and Australia for the president of the US to do the same.

Raising the minimum age for a male driver's license and gun ownership and banning assault weapons for all except those entitled to use them in their profession seems reasonable. Young females seem less prone to show off and take risks.

Suicide by car is probably much more common than seems apparent.
Most times when someones car swerves into the path of another vehicle it may be suicide, mostly it’s put down to falling asleep or just inattention.
In Sydney there is an ever present, 24/7/365, means of suicide, namely the suburban trains.

Hi David.

You are absolutely correct, a gun's only purpose is to wound, kill or threaten, could add to that target practice like Issy enjoys. There is no correlation between the purpose of a gun and that of a car, its a deflective argument because the gun ownership argument is extremely weak.

A hypothetical; the crime rate is on the rise, robberies, assaults, murders, the drug trade is getting out of hand etc, etc. The government in its wisdom decides that all citizens should have the right to gun protection. Gun ownership is encouraged with TV advertising, the "free guns for pensioners" scheme is working well, taxpayer subs for guns, every copper now looks like RoboCop. The murder rate was up there with Tijuana Mexico at 138 per 100,000, unemployment, poverty, etc etc is all there in society.

Down at the local supermarket a large number of shoppers are in attendance, 200 to 300, there is a special on 'Chilli Beans' this week 3 cans $1. In isle 6 there is a scream "ROBBERY" Mavis has realised 'Tiny Taters' which last shop were $2 a pack are now 5 bucks, "ROBBERY" she screams again. Donna on register 3 pulls out her AK47, Donna has been held up 4 times this week and its only Tuesday, she gives a quick burst to settle things down, hitting Mr Dildas the store manager. Charlie the shelf packer runs from "out the back" believing a robbery is in progress lets loose with his semi-auto in the hope he gets the bad guy before he kills someone. Pensioner George in the soup isle sees a kid in a hoody, an obvious criminal with bad intentions, George pulls out his concealed government pistol, fires, missing the hoody kid, but hitting a woman with purple hair, and a screaming tot in mums shopping trolley. Mr Dildas, although morally wounded is able to calm shoppers and assure them 'Tiny Taters' are not $5, that was a pricing error, and there are plenty of 'Chilli Beans' still on special. things then return to normal.

Reduce murders, increase accidental shootings!

Those who say that a gun is only designed to kill etc., are demonstrating their ignorance of the subject on which they are holding forth. The variety of designs of Zimmerstutzen are designed only for indoor target shooting at ranges of around 12 feet, the earlier ones are muzzle loading and the more modern breech loading, then there are log splitting guns and very useful, time and money saving, furnace cannon.
Again there are stun guns which fire a captive bolt and are not dangerous except ar zero range.
Let us not forget signalling guns, line throwing guns and alarm guns all of which are safety devices.

Dear Is Mise,

Guns are used as weapons and for other purposes. There have been a series of shootings resulting in deaths and wounding. To the best of my knowledge log splitting guns, furnace cannon, stun guns, guns which fire a captive bolt, signalling guns, line throwing guns and alarm guns have not been used in any the shooting and wounding of people. It is guns used as weapons that are the problem. Those guns used for other purposes apparently have not been used as weapons.

David
You said that a gun has no purpose than to kill wound or threaten, good to see that you’ve changed your mind.

I think that people that create arbitrary and "absolute laws" based on ideology that is disconnected from society are more of a danger to society. Most people have a more balanced view on firearms than espoused in university corridors and by socialist ideologues in sacred corridors of trades hall- and accept that- while firearms pose some risk it is balanced by "balance of power" considerations.

There are groups- Freud was one and in a sense Bernay's was another- that believe that society needs to be chained to the enlightened ones of the world for fear of the dangerous crowd- that they cannot be trusted to govern themselves- and they must be de-ethnicized for the greater good- and against their own dilusions- not acknowledging to themselves or especially others that their vision is a vision of "absolute evil".

Freedom is not free. With great power comes great responsibility.

Issy screams we don't mention the gun problem in other countries except America, and that's only because of political considerations. Not true, but I must say my primary consideration is Australia's safety and not wanting the American style gun nuts here to gain traction.

NIGERIA; <<Attackers stormed into the church in the city of Owo and began "shooting sporadically," Adeyemi Olayemi, the legislator representing the Owo constituency in the Ondo State House of Assembly, told CNN.At least 28 people were killed, Olayemi said.>>

Unfortunately Nigeria has Texas style gun laws, in fact more like the "Dodge City" gun laws some like Issy favour. NOTHING TO SEE HERE!

UPDATE; There were another 11 mass shootings reported in the US over the weekend. For the first 5 days of June, 24 people have been shot dead and 70 injured in mass shootings. The worse shooting was in Tulsa Oklahoma; Warren Clinic shooting: At least four people (later 5) were killed and multiple were injured after a shooting inside a building on the Saint Francis Hospital campus. The shooter fatally shot himself. Whose counting when you have all those Red Necks and Good Ol' Boys looking after public safety. NOTHING TO SEE HERE!

btw The population of Oklahoma is about 4 million, about the same as New Zealand. Tulsa has a population of about 400,000. If you look at the demographic of the US daily mass shootings you are just as likely to be a victim of a random mass shooting in Hicksville (pop 37) Tennessee, as you are in big bad New York or Chicago. What do they all have in common LAX GUN LAWS.

Transfer that to an Australian context, there would be random mass shooting in places like Birdsville (pop 115) as there would be in Sydney and Melbourne. If we had LAX GUN LAWS.

Paul,
Pity that you didn’t take the trouble to look up Nigeria’’s gun law before you started your rant.
Nigeria has strict gun laws and civilian weapons are tightly controlled.
The number of guns per 100 population is 17.compared to Australia’s 14.
Nigeria’s murder rate/100,000 is 34.52 or approx 7 times that of the USA.
How do you explain that?

Bye the way, Dodge City is in Kansas.

For some like Issy, robust gun laws are such things as not allowing people to keep a 'Howitzer' in the backyard for neighborhood shelling in the name of self defence. For them lax gun laws are allowing people to keep a 'Howitzer' in the backyard to rearrange the neighbours veggie patch.

How the gun nuts operate in Australia to white ant robust gun laws;

Issy said earlier, that the Shooters Party in NSW had put forward legislation which was designed to "get tough on gun criminals", and the Greens opposed that "feel good legislation", that's true, and that legislation was eventually defeated, not just by the Greens, but by the actions of MP's, from both the Labor and Liberal parties as well. WHY? The reason was the Shooters had wrapped their meaningless get tough on gun crime legislation with other legislation designed to make guns freely available to the so called "law abiding citizens" and refused to separate the nonsense. THat is how these Gun Nuts try to white ant robust gun control laws. Ever since, Issy and co keep repeating the nonsense "The Greens oppose tough criminal gun laws".

If the Greens do not oppose tough gun laws on criminals why did they not seize the chance and.introduce legislation themselves?
Probably for the same reason that they opposed the use of drug sniffer dogs at public places.

That’s the same Greens who want to lower the age of consent for males and who want fully functional males, who say that they feel that they are females, to be allowed to compete as females in women’s sport.
This.might be appropriate in pistol shooting etc., but hardly in swimming, athletics, boxing or wrestling.

Hi Issy,

A bit of deflection there, we have strong criminal justice laws covering the illegal use of firearms, which are supported by all Greens MP's, plus the majority of responsible Liberal and Labor law makers. The Shooters Party were trying to run with a deceitful furphy, using so called tough on gun crime legislation to mask their true motive of watering down robust gun control laws, which was part of their proposed legislation. Please explain why the Shooters would not separate their proposed law into two parts. Tell us why both Liberal and Labor MP's also opposed their white ant legislation, and voted it down.

Issy at next party meeting recite this pertaining to that phony piece of legislation;

“You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.”

Abraham Lincoln.

HI there PAUL1405...

You know ol' man, I was thinking about you a moment ago, as I reviewed some of the remarks and exchanges made by many of the contributors here, on the emotive topic of firearms. Especially your own entrenched and blinkered opinions. Then it came to me as I was nibbling on one of my favourite tropical fruit, the Durian, how similar you are to that fruit, with your dogmatic opinions and narcissistic debating style.

As with the Durian, you are very much, 'green' on the outside (your politics), a 'yellow' coloured pulp on the inside (your courage), and have an altogether 'fetid odour' about you (your arguments)? But there's hope for you yet, to lose that unfortunate epithet; 'DURIAN'?

Like early toilet training you will learn that not everything that spews forth from your mouth, is fact. None of us have that particular gift. And like us all, we each have our strengths and our weaknesses, usually commensurate with our level of knowledge of a subject.

And your knowledge of firearms per se, is sadly lacking. Immeasurably in fact. It might prove beneficial, if you just sat quietly, and read many of the opinions that have been expressed here. There's a wealth of knowledge to be had, by quietly listening DURIAN.

I'm certainly no better than you. After all, it was once a great sage, who after much deliberation declared that I'm such a flawed individual suffering as I do from; GREED; HATE; & IGNORANCE. So there's no hope for me DURIAN, so be warned and listen.

Paul,
That still leaves the question of why, if half of what the shooters proposed was a good idea why didn’t someone propose it as a new motion and vote it in.

You still havent explained why the country, the USA, with the highest civilian gun ownership in the world has such a low murder rate.

You haven’t explained yet why you got the facts so wrong on Nigeria.

I do hope that you’ve done the right thing and informed the NSW authorities that you have new evidence in the Edwards case that will alter the Coroner’s findings.

Dearest wonderfulness o sung wu,

"I (o sung wu) was thinking about you (Paul1405) a moment ago" That's nice, I haven't given you a second thought since I posted "No problem, I will leave you to your personal deprivation" but its good you are thinking of me.

It must be frustrating, just like the school yard bully, sometimes it just don't go to script. There's this kid you want to slap, you need an excuse, so you throw your usual insults in an attempt to rark him up, and when he retaliates, you can justifiably give him that slap he so richly deserves. BUT things don't go to plan, the kid didn't retaliate like you expected, so frustrating . What does the bully do, he waits a time and out of the blue here he comes again with his barrage of insults hoping for the reaction that will justify a slapping down.

SORRY FELLA TO DISAPPOINT, BUT IT AIN'T GOING TO HAPPEN. YOU'LL JUST HAVE TO STEW A BIT LONGER.

BTW; That was silly of that person to throw red paint on your Gung-Ho buddy, they should have thrown real blood something he would be more familiar with. As for the women who verbally attacked you, they thought they were only speaking the truth, but its a pity your wife had to be subjected to it as well, surely they didn't think she was a baby killer.

BBTW; As an ex pugilist is your nose splatted all over your face, and do you speak out of the side of your mouth? I sure you weren't fighting Rocky Marciano, but just one mug against another mug.

Paulie Baby aka the Durian Kid...

If, as you claim, my comments concerning your fundamentally flawed character are in no way worthy of you 'slapping me down', I must confess, I can know breathe much easier, without fearing being slapped down by some esoteric hand. PAULIE I know it will never be yours, that'll do the job, as you'll need to seek assistance of another to do it for you. Even though you claim to abhor violence? A curious contradiction I believe?

And true to form, there's no depths to the level of derision and disrespect you'll go, to insult some of the most venerated figures in our armed forces. Delighting in the spectacle of seeing a decorated Major, dressed A1s, covered in red paint as he continues to march unabated, with sword proudly held perpendicularly aloft, as he represents the latest Australian dead, killed in the Vietnam War.

Such a spectacle must cause peals of laughter from your Green colleagues; All of whom ensconced as they are, in Cowards Castle. FYI 'The Bronco Block Buster' as he was known, was one of the smallest World Heavyweight Boxing Champions, in the history of pugilism. His countenance reflected very little evidence of his boxing career, not so his Bank balance; Substantial! Which reminds me, how's your knitting circle progressing Paulie? And the Armourers School? You have quite a task ahead of you, trying to render inoperable all F/As.

I should've realised earlier Paulie, you come from that dreary party of Greens, those bearded sandal-wearers, and tedious fruit juice drinkers, unrelentingly snap around the heels of ordinary people who have no interest in them or their crazy policies on F/As or anything else. If their Green policies weren't so harmful to Australia, I'd recommend they take them to a Circus, where they'll surely gain a laugh or two from young infant children.

O Sung Wu- The major demonstrated admirable courage. Reminds me of the quote.

Strength of character does not consist solely in having powerful feelings, but in maintaining one's balance in spite of them. — Carl Von Clausewitz

Some have it some don't.

Thanks for the story of "The major and the red paint". Kudos.

Hi Issy,

"if half of what the shooters proposed was a good idea why didn’t someone propose it as a new motion and vote it in."

Speaking with a Greens MLC at the time, the concern was the proposed Shooters legislation was in two parts but presented as one, (A) Criminal Gun Crime and (B) Relaxation of Gun Licencing laws. Part (B) was unacceptable to many not just in the Greens, I think it was David Shoebridge, now Senator Shoebridge, who led the fight against it, but many in both the Liberal and Labor parties also had great concerns about relaxation. Many MP's seen part (A) as unnecessary, as existing laws covered that area aqdicuitly. It was put to the Shooters, if they were willing to separate their proposal into two, or rework it, then part (A) would have a reasonable chance of success, part (B) was doomed. The shooter refused to amend or withdraw, and their crappy legislation was defeated, not just by the Greens, but by Liberal and Labor as well.

It was suspected from the start that the proposal was nothing more than a stunt, and the Shooters knew it was doomed to failure, but it served a political purpose; ie Shooters could forevermore bost that "Greens are soft on criminals", Shooters are "soft on gun control".

Paul,
It was a good idea because it meant that using a gun in a criminal activity would bring a harsher penalty.

How are you going on informing the NSW Authorities about your fresh information in the Edwards murders?

Got anything to say about the woman in the US who shot the gunman dead?

Hi Issy,

Nigeria, now there's a stable liberal democracy for you, with your so called "tough" gun laws that everyone respects. I know "tough" for you means not being able to keep a Howitzer in the backyard and and tank in the frontyard for random shelling of the neighborhood, but we all must make sacrifices! Even in Nigeria.

"Nigerian President, Major General Muhammadu Buhari, has placed two executive bills before the National Assembly to control arms proliferation and regulate the importation of explosives. But deeper scrutiny exposes the regime’s tactless approach and the helplessness of security forces in curbing arms and explosive smuggling into Nigeria. The biggest problem is that in many parts of the country, the Nigerian state, that's President Buhari, has lost its monopoly on the use of force.

Issy I do believe Major General Muhammadu Buhari is the leader of the Nigerian Shooters and Hooters Party, not much hooting, but a lot of shooting

Paul,
Nigeria has strict gun laws; don’t they work?

You still haven’t explained why the US, with the most guns in civilian ownership has a low murder rate.

You might also bring your wisdom to bear on why the US has a burglary rate of 527/100,000
while Australia’s is 911/100,000.

England and Wales has a rate of 617/100,000.

The two countries with the tougher gun laws have more burglaries than the US

But let us now consider the major serious crime against women:
Rape: Australia just misses out on World leadership being beaten by Botswana, but only just, their rate is 93/100,000.

Our rate is 92/100,000
The US has a rate of 27/100,000.
Australia doesn’t allow women any means of self protection whereas the US does.

'afternoon to you CANEM MALUM...

I didn't actually witness the red paint episode in person, rather I saw it on TV in the nightly news. A shocking display of disrespect, that many of these boofheads tend to show on such occasions. Still the masses of people, promptly and swiftly registered their disgust, by sending letters of protest to the various TV and Radio Stations that had carried the segment.

There are some things that should be respected and held sacred. Generally, the community at large will quickly let any interloper know, should they cross that invisible line of venerated obeisance.

Hi Issy,

Get on the wrong side of President Buhari in Nigeria and you'll soon find out how effective Nigerian gun laws can be. They will take you out the back, put you up against a well and then demonstrate how really effective their gun laws are.

What a waste of red paint, pigs blood would be more realistic.

Can anyone answer this, when a baby is run through with a bayonet do they squeal or cry? Maybe someone here knows. I wouldn't know, I never went to war.

Paul,
Dunno about babies but blokes usually just have a look of surprise.

I do sometimes wonder though if babies cut to bits in the womb would cry out if they could.
I believe the Greens are in favour of that barbaric practice on unborn babies.

Have you told the NSW Authorities yet about the new evidence on the Edwards murders?

Hi Issy,

I am not personally in favour of abortion on demand, many in society are. Babies murdered in the womb? Maybe we could ask that Septic Tank William Calley, seems he had no problem murdering 200 to 400 unarmed South Vietnamese civilians in the My Lai massacre on March 16, 1968, during the Vietnam War, you could ask him, I'm sure the great hero ran through a few pregnant women in the 400. Calley was found guilty and given house arrest, and released 3 days after conviction. Maybe he should march down George Street and you old boys could take the salute. I just hope no one throws red paint on him, that would be too much for me, disgracing the uniform and all with red paint! We can't have that, I say hang em', hang em' high for such an atrocity against the uniform of a hero!

Paul,
Getting desperate?

Hi Issy,

You might remember this, it was about your time. When the Spanish conquistadors marched into the Americas, they would take along a Catholic monk, he had a very important function. When the Spanish came upon a native village, they would have the monk baptise the babies, then the conquistadors would run the babies through with their swords, killing the lot. Some might think that was a barbaric act, well no siree there was logic to it all. By baptising the baby and then immediately killing it, the said infant would go straight to heaven, no original sin, no chance to go all pagan later on, and eventually to Hell, lucky bastards, don't you agree. The bubs mum had nothing to worry about, the Spanish killed her about five minutes later after raping her, along with the rest of the natives Then as one does marched off with ang gold and silver the village had.

Now was there any sort of variation on that theme applied in Korea and Vietnam, run the babies through and stop the later spread of Communism? A win win situation, you fellas had the old Pardre give you God's blessing before you went out for the fight. Did ye not? Remember when God's on your side you can do no wrong, like the conquistadors. Were you some kind of modern day conquistador?

Paul,
Few people disgust me but you have managed to join there ranks.

Vaya con Dios.

Hi Issy,

You were probably reading your own post when you got disgusted.

"I do sometimes wonder though if babies cut to bits in the womb would cry out if they could. I believe the Greens are in favour of that barbaric practice on unborn babies."

I was simply asking about babies and wars, lots of infants died in both Korea and Vietnam, I was only enquiring about one possibility. Besides, it wasn't me who raised on this public forum the specter of killing babies in war.

Moving on.

What about that 12 year old kid stealing his grandfathers pistol to hold up a gas station, where he fired the gun. Lucky he didn't kill someone.

Do you agree with 38% of Republicans who believe MASS SHOOTINGS is the price Americans have to pay in return for GUN FREEDOM. Do the Australian Shooters and Hooters have any policy like that?

How some scuttle off when confronted with the reality.

Dear Paul1405,

Perhaps, there is a reality, but can any of us see it? Can any of us discard the influences that have formed us? Would we want to discard them? We are what we are, but in the next instant we are somebody else. Can we understand? No, Everything is too complex.

The 'Prince of Coward's Castle' says solemnly '...how some scuttle off when confronted with reality...' oh so true. And hide themselves beyond the reach of National Service in the depths of Coward's Castle. So mote it be!

The reality is that America’s crime rate is low and it has the most guns in civilian hands.

Why?

I take it Issy, you align with the 38% of American Republicans who believe MASS KILLINGS is a price that has to be paid for GUN FREEDOM. You seem to have no regard for innocent children being shot dead in schools and other killed in mass shooting in the US, you dismiss it with a simple nothing to see here attitude, you say; "The reality is that America’s crime rate is low and it has the most guns in civilian hands." Tell the parents and love-ones of those children murdered at Robb Elementary School, statistically their child is just part of a low number of murders in the country, and they should be thankful, it is so low. Anyway those parents and love-ones should be told about El Salvador and South Africa, I'm sure it will bring them great comfort in their hour of sorrow.