I see that CWP a large renewables company has its business up for sale.
The price is suggested at $2B to $3B and its plant produces 2000Mwatt.
That would be name plate rating.
A value of $1B per Gwatt or $1 per watt !
As on usual figures it would average 0.3Gw/hr over a year.
Is this a signal that renewables will never pay for themselves ?
It would be useful to know how much it cost to build.

Is this why renewables get such large subsidies ?

Interesting figures Bazz. Often new tech have an inflated view of their value- just watch Sharktank- but yes this does seem extreme. It deserves a bit more research- follow the smoke- sometimes companies value companies based on growth projections- though venture capital discourages this- sometimes they are offering foreign entities an opportunity to enter the Australian market through the back door- in this case the companies price isn't represented by the companies assets. And renewables paint a happy face for many regulators. The public is always behind on the latest con- by definition.

At the small scale there are many cons in the immigration space and an "immigration massively multi-lane fast track slipstream" has often been created in the form of small business. Small immigrant businesses don't really operate as businesses perhaps but as shell entities for immigration- on-selling the businesses to new immigrants in successive iterations- I can imagine that there is a whole unseen consulting industry in places like China and Australian Immigration Consultation to facilitate this con.

The left seem to use equal opportunity and anti-prejudice laws as a trap- against conscientious people against leftist policy in bureaucracy- creating an extreme left purity spiral in regulators.

I suspect that the left have an organised strategy to infiltrate government using "new laws"- but no one cares mostly because they are afraid to even look- let alone say something. It's amusing to think of the powerful- judges, police, etc as little more than children protecting their lollies- from the overwhelming hordes.

As the intelligence community knows everyone can be influenced

There are communist manuals on the stages of insurgency- it appears that we have reached the third stage in a sense. In a sense Communist insurgency has changed from the French and Russian Revolutions and it seems less violent but it's effects seem to be the same.

Just think- if an attractive person flirts with you- would you flirt back- if they reported the flirting before you- they would seem to be the injured party- and the people attracted to HR may have a particular ideological bent. Yes a lot of this is in the eye of the beholder- but this ambiguity is one reason why such a strategy could be- probably is- so effective.

Power struggles involve deception- everyone wants power- are we able to transcend our own nature- for a greater understanding of our own and others limitations.

Yes Calem, maybe it is just an immigration pathway that maybe
avoids Foreign Investment Commission.
However, someone is in the business and finds it, even with the
subsidies, not worth holding.
If this is so how much more subsidy would be needed ?
I thought wind and solar was cheap energy ?
Don't tell me, someone has been lying to us !

Hello Canem, I looked on ASIC and could not find the company
as CWP Renewables. This is their web site;
https://cwprenewables.com/about
and I could not find them on the asx either, strange for such an
active company.

Bazz- Interesting.

They have a wiki page...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CWP_Renewables

Appears to be backed by Partners Group- private equity firm with US$127 billion in assets under management in private equity, private infrastructure, private real estate and private debt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partners_Group

Dear Canem Malum,

Hell mate you do blather on.

The topic was about renewable and somehow you have started rabbiting on about "communist manuals on the stages of insurgency- it appears that we have reached the third stage in a sense."

Struth that reads as utter gibberish. What is going on in that head of yours? You are making Bazz look like a bastion of logic and consistency.

I assume they are a private rather than public company.

Equity firms seem to be often restructuring their holdings so it's not completely surprising that they're being sold- but I think you're onto something- don't invest in renewables- their business models may not be profitable.

You asked-

1. If this is so how much more subsidy would be needed ?
2. I thought wind and solar was cheap energy ?

Answer-

1. Good question- not sure.
If they use renewables to run concentrators to make U235 or Pu it might be more sustainable. I've heard of a few bankrupt renewables firms.

2. The energy could be cheap in theory the storage is a different issue. If the energy production can be closer to the consumer then that is good but it's useless if the storage can't be. The market is a harsh mistress- good intentions and opinions aren't enough

Bazz,
Yes you've got the value of renewables wrong,

>As on usual figures it would average 0.3Gw/hr over a year.

Those units are a dead giveaway that you've made a mistake!
Capacity factor for wind power is usually about 30%.
So for 2GW of capacity its average output would be about 0.6GW.
Over a year that works out as 5.26TWh

Aiden said "So for 2GW of capacity its average output would be about 0.6GW. Over a year that works out as 5.26TWh"

Answer- Good point Aiden- but why is the firm being sold- in your view.

Subsidies are built into our economy and "Can-Do-Capitalism" relies on them in many areas to function.

As well as examples like privately run Aged Care, Telecommunications, the Health Insurance industry and Employment agencies just to name a few, we also heavily subsidise the fossil fuel industry.

Last year fossil fuel subsidies increased by $1.3billion to a total of $11.6billion.

Canen,
Private equity firms work by buying businesses cheap and selling them at a profit. There are several reasons they can be cheap, including: they can be new (startups can grow quickly and so be very lucrative). They can be oversold on the stock market. They can be badly run (in which case the private equity firm changes the way they're run).

I think this is an example of the first of those reasons: CWP grew quickly, and now its owners have decided it's time to sell.

Thanks for you feedback Aiden. Kudos.

Ahhh yes of course, I think I might have meant 0.6Gw capacity that
could be relied upon in average wx condx.
I still expected to find something on Asic as they are a company.
I will look at the links Canem gave.

To the Kudos Kid,

Your fixation with Reds under the beds is unbelievable, are they also in your Cornflakes in the mornings? All I can say is for your own safety do not share needles.

Paul

The Soviet Union was very actively trying to destabilise the west during the cold war, funding and directing the anti-nuclear movement for example. Would the world be facing a supposed climate crisis had civilian nuclear energy been developed instead of being white-anted by the commies?

I am less interested in pursuing conspiracy theories than I am in seeing economically and technically viable alternatives adopted. Rejecting nuclear as a viable low carbon energy source is like Bronwyn and Mox's denial of Russian atrocities.

Fester,

Back in the days of the Cold War, everything opposed by Capatalism was portrayed as a "commie plot", be it anti Vietnam War protests, to anti nuclear protests. Can you provide evidence of your assertions? Maybe, just maybe, people sometimes protest, not due to some overiding political affiliation on their part, but because they see something as wrong and in need of fixing, could that be possible?

If you are concerned with internal political interference in the affairs of foreign countries, you need look no further than the United States. Everything according to America is in "America's interest", giving them the right to stick their nose in, whenever and wherever, they see fit.

Paul,

From what I have read of Putin, having such influence was standard practice.

https://www.nytimes.com/1983/07/26/world/kgb-officers-try-to-infiltrate-antiwar-groups.html

Currently there is a view often expressed by the left that liberal democracy is inherently unstable and at risk of degenerating into fascist regimes. That is clearly a "justification" of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

As for the US being such a wicked country, how is it that Japan and Germany are free of US puppet control, peaceful and prosperous, whereas Russia is paranoid and destitute, run by psychopathic criminals, with an arsenal of nuclear weapons pointed at their "enemies"?

My friend works at at glass and plastic bottle recycling facility.
Sometimes he's sent an hour each way from one side of the city to the other just to collect 20 plastic 600ml bottles.
Clearly this is not financially viable, but somehow government subsidies make it so.

Armchair,
I think your friend is having you on.

_________________________________________________________________

Bazz,
So is there anything, other than your mistake and your prejudice, which leads you to believe there's a problem with the economic viability of renewables?

_________________________________________________________________

Fester,
The main problem with nuclear power is it's an expensive option. Everyone promises it will be cheaper in the future, but those promises have not eventuated yet. Meanwhile the cost of renewables has plummeted.

Well you can think that, but my friend is also my housemate and tells me about it and that the same thing happens every single week.
A normal business could not survive these costs but with government subsidies it's not a problem.
Anything to please our foreign masters over in Brussels it seems.

Can and bottle recycling is actually quite lucrative, but only because the government is willing to throw money away to claim its great on climate change agendas.
In truth the truck he drives pumps out more fumes into the environment than it saves recycling the bottles it collects.

Actually Aiden, he just showed me the EXACT stats of his pickups which he has on his phone.

Take an average day he spent 4 hours going to pick up 3500 bottles.
If you take them to the depot yourself you get 10 cents a unit, if you have them picked up you get 8 cents a unit.

The company makes 2 cents per bottle picking them up.
3500 bottles x 2 cents = $70

Now take into account the cost of wages to pay my friend,
- then add in the cost of fuel for the truck,
- as well the $1000 cost of hiring the truck each week.

How does it make money Aiden?
If not propped up by government subsidies?

Aidan

Cost depends on the metric you choose, and the metrics seem to be chosen to fit an ideology rather than to determine what is a better option for the community.

As the French are demonstrating, nuclear generated electricity is about a third of the cost of German renewable energy. As renewable energy relies on gas fired power for 24/7 reliability, the recent gas price hike makes electricity more costly. I applaud your enthusiasm for renewables and think that they have many applications, but I think trying to power Australia with them is economic suicide.

Dear paul1495,

Yes indeed, the rhetoric and fear mongering of the right has reached such ludicrous heights that people like CM think they can sit there and roll this like "In a sense Communist insurgency has changed from the French and Russian Revolutions" off their tongue without challenge.

It is just normal hyperbole for them now. No regard for how utterly stupid such statements are. Perhaps they largely inhabit likeminded forums where they can get away with it. Thankfully there are a few of us left on here who are prepared to pull them up.

For one of them to have to reduce the gains of renewable energy to a communist insurgency speaks to how much they have been placed in a corner of their own making.

The world really will go to hell in a handbasket if these clowns get more traction.

Armchair,
3500 bottles in four hours is believable. 20 in 2 hours isn't.

_________________________________________________________________

Fester,
Are you being deliberately disingenuous? Or are you unaware that the reason French nuclear power s so cheap is because the power plants were built n the 1970s so the construction cost was quickly inflated away?

SA uses a lot less gas to generate electricity now than it did before it started using renewables and stopped using coal. More renewables and more batteries mean less reliance on gas.

Aidan,

Exactly. When the comparisons get done it is for twenty years, and I would guess the gas price assumptions for the comparison would be out a bit as well. A well maintained nuclear power plant might last seventy years. Were you to work on those metrics you would see why the French were so sensible in building nuclear power stations.

Fester,
I'm not doubting the French were sensible in building nuclear power stations. But the economics of the present day are very different to those of the 1970s. Nuclear power may have been cheap back then, but it's expensive now. And a 70 year lifespan in VERY optimistic. It may be possible to extend the lifespan that far, but at nowhere near full power.

And the objective is to phase out gas, so natural gas prices are of little relevance to the long term economics of renewable energy. Now the intention is for a large overbuild of renewable energy infrastructure, and to use the surplus to produce hydrogen.

Hey Aiden,
I wasn't necessarily wrong in what I first said.
Part of that pick-up run may includes driving a hour out to nowhere and an hour back (and often does) just to pick up a single bag of 20 bottles.
Other collections on that pick-up run can be somewhat larger.

And it doesn't change my argument though does it?
$70 does not cover 4hrs wages, truck fuel for 150klms and vehicle rental expenses.
The only thing that makes it viable at all is the government subsidies.

An additional cost of nuclear power stations is that as well as waste disposal, once they come to the end of their serviceable life they have to be "mothballed" and kept secure.

They usually can't be pulled down and rebuilt economically but the considerable decommissioning costs have to be paid for by somebody - guess who? The consumer! That's another reason the cost of nuclear powered electricity generation is so high.

As of August 2013, 147 civilian nuclear power reactors had ceased operation in 19 countries so it's a considerable problem.

AC,

Are the bottle people not providing a service, subsidised by government, a bit like public transport. If not recycled the bottles would go to landfill, and there would be an environmental cost in that.

Armchair,
Which is it: "out to nowhere" or "the other side of the city"?
I could believe such detours occur in country areas, but suburban depots would be much closer spaced.
And I wasn't disputing that the recycling industry relies on subsidies.

SteeleRedux said- "Yes indeed, the rhetoric and fear mongering of the right has reached such ludicrous heights that people like CM think they can sit there and roll this like "In a sense Communist insurgency has changed from the French and Russian Revolutions" off their tongue without challenge. It is just normal hyperbole for them now. No regard for how utterly stupid such statements are."

Answer- If SteeleRedux is complaining about my musings I suppose I must be saying something right. Thanks SteeleRedux for saying I'm ludicrous and stupid- from you that is the very highest of compliment- hopefully I can continue in eternal superlative perspicacity. I'm sure Communist Hebrew SAlinsky would be proud- in a sense. I also have a bad dog name.

Comments in context-
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=9796#332380

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Alinsky
http://www.conservapedia.com/Saul_Alinsky
http://www.azquotes.com/author/247-Saul_Alinsky

These are interesting...

They have the guns and therefore we are for peace and for reformation through the ballot. When we have the guns then it will be through the bullet.
Saul Alinsky

True revolutionaries do not flaunt their radicalism. They cut their hair, put on suits and infiltrate the system from within.
Saul Alinsky

The very first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom -- Lucifer.
Saul Alinsky

Organization for action will now and in the decade ahead center upon America's white middle class. That is where the power is. ... Our rebels have contemptuously rejected the values and the way of life of the middle class. They have stigmatized it as materialistic, decadent, bourgeois, degenerate, imperialistic, war-mongering, brutalized and corrupt. They are right; but we must begin from where we are if we are to build power for change, and the power and the people are in the middle class majority.
Saul Alinsky

A racially integrated community is a chronological term timed from the entrance of the first black family to the exit of the last white family.
Saul Alinsky

I wonder if it is all Communist Hebrew's or Communists or just Saint Saul that are so Anti-Anglo.

Rache's comments sound very much like David Ricardo's one dimensional comments on the economy.

A seventy year lifespan for a nuclear power station Aidan? Try eighty years and longer. I was being conservative.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nuclear-power-plant-aging-reactor-replacement-/

Most nuclear reactors get shut down because of scare campaigns to sway public opinion. Once a nuclear power plant is built it becomes far more profitable with time.

rache

Did you know that wind and solar farms become toxic and dangerous messes to be cleaned up with taxpayer money when they fail?

Nuclear power stations close because the pollies bow to nutjobs like Caldicott, so of course the taxpayer has to pay. If the Germans kept their nuclear power stations going they could enjoy cheap low carbon energy for many decades to come. The Brits intend to use decommissioned nuclear power stations for smrs. Australia is very foolish not to develop nuclear power.

Fester,

Waste from recovered turbines and solar panels doesn't have a toxic half-life of thousands of years or highly specific disposal and storage requirements.

Probably 10 billion people on the Earth will have an impact lasting thousands of years- probably even more if they can't use nuclear power. Maybe the UN could set population density limits before boycotts.

Rache,

The reasons that the French reactors were so cheap were mostly that they took one design that got approval and built a fleet of near-identical power plants that given France's lack of coal gas or hydro capacity, nuclear was the cheapest and most viable.

Secondly, there are presently 51 nuclear reactors presently under construction and the UK that has 2 under construction has just approved the construction of a further 6 over the next decade.

Finally, 60 years is fairly common for nuclear reactors as the reactors themselves have few moving parts. Wind turbines typically last 20 years after which the consumer has to pay for their demolition which is often not included in the cost of power.

Several small nuclear plants trump a large one & thousands of windmills any day !
Only people to whom profit means more than a healthy environment would disagree !
Windmills such as the ones used to produce large-scale power will prove to be one of the greatest environmental disasters ever !

Abolish the power subsidy to Aged Wefare!

Paul1405,
I could still function but if they introduced Public Service pay according to merit you'd starve to death in less than a week !\

Paul1405,
another thing, abolishing something we've already paid for would straight-out theft ! I suppose if the next generation deems your contributions to your Super all your working (for want of a better description) life then you'll be ok with it ?

oops, typo, should be "deems your contributions as invalid".....

What would save a lot of waste individual, would be to abolish all public service pensions, & put the ex bludgers on the old age pension, like the rest. It would sane millions, & get a bit of equity back into retirement funding.

Hasbeen,
It has always been my suggestion for everyone reaching 65 to receive the old age pension. If some people desire more then that's where self-funded Super comes into play.
Self-funded being the operative term, not taxpayer (Govt) boosted contributions.
Those who decide to spend years out of the country should have to contribute to pension contributions when departing these shore & during their time away so, when they retire here they're entitled to their full pension. Those who start paying in later life should be made to accept to pay somewhat more until they retire.
The bandwagon is slowing down !