mhaze,

If you care about equality, human rights, justice, and
international law - then tell us what your vision for
justice looks like. If you see "a place where Jews can be safe,"
Great! I agree. But Jewish safety should not come at the cost
of Palestinian lives and freedoms.

"Two states for two peoples?" Well, with continued settlement
construction, displacement, and the network of checkpoints dividing
up the land. Israel is making that impossible in the near term so
we need to talk about respecting Palestinian equality, dignity and
human rights.

Israel as a refuge for Jewish people was created on land where people
were already living, through a process which displaced and killed
many of them, and now continues to grab more land and resources
at the expense of the Palestinian population. The reality of life
for Palestinians under Israeli control fits the definition of
"apartheid."

I don't want to continue to argue. That's why I think we should
agree to disagree on this one. We are both entitled to our opinions.
And if you truly believe in equality, human rights, justice and
international law - you should be cheering me on. Or at least
thinking about what's being said. See you on another discussion.

Have a nice day.

Foxy,

Between 1948 and 1967 when the Palestinians had control over East Jerusalem, the west bank and Gaza, the atrocities against Jews in Israel were even worse than they are now. Most of the Arabs killed in this period were trying to kill Jews.

Israel has always been willing to trade land for peace, but it is clear that peace is not something the Arabs are capable of. The difference is that now Israel is far more capable of defending itself.

The five main factors about apartheid were:
The whites had their way and say. ...
Interracial marriages were criminalized. ...
Black South Africans could not own property. ...
Education was segregated. ...
People in South Africa were classified into racial groups.

Only a Jew-hater would accuse Israel of apartheid or being like Nazis.

shadow minister,

Criticizing Israel's policies and practices is not
the same as criticizing Judaism. It is not anti-Semitic.
And Israel's policies and practices have not changed
since its inception as the following quotes show:

David Ben-Gurion Israel's first Prime Minister said in 1948:

"We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do
return... the old will die and the young will forget."

General Moshe Dayan:

"There is no more Palestine. Finished."

"We have no solution. You (Palestinians) shall continue to live
like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we shall see where
this process leads."

Former Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu's approach to Palestinians:

" beat them up, not once but repeatedly, beat them up so it hurts
so badly, until it's unbearable."

And - "Once we squeeze all we can out of the US it can dry up and
blow away."

The current Prime Minister of Israel - Naftali Bennett:

"Israel will not divide its land. we're already too small."

"I want the world to understand that a Palestinian state means
no Israel state. That's the equation."

Israel sits on stolen land, pushing out an indigenous population,
burning down houses, killing civilians, then cries when they
fight back even though they have billions of dollars invested
in defence. Israel is and has been in violation of multiple
international laws and in violation of the Geneva Convention, but
nothing happens because the US block anything from happening
and supports Israel.

"

You could make the argument that cultural rights take precedence over individual rights- to deny a culture the right to exclusive use of any territory is to deny the existence of the culture (it doesn't necessarily have to be the territory of Israel- but this seems to be the most logical context).

I believe that the Palistine / Israel borders can be altered to accommodate the sacred sites of both cultures and prevent land locking- without the checker board pattern of the current borders- which gives Israel control over the movement of poor Palestinian foot traffic.

Both sides stubbornness have contributed to the tension of the situation- each expecting the other to flinch.

I agree that Israel may be too small for all of the Hebrew diaspora of the world- which includes all of the millions of Hebrews living in the US.

Hebrew's argue that the Palestinian culture isn't as enterprising as Hebrew culture (different cultures are going to vary in their enterprise variable- they have different values) and so they may be onto something when they imply that they cannot come to a compromise with them- because permanent warfare suits their purpose because they get aid (amongst other things) as a substitute.

Sometimes two apparent opponents can collude in a conflict in order to attack a third party.

Some times a third party creates a conflict in order to achieve some other objective.

I suspect that more is going on than meets the eye.

But one thing I suspect- it's always about power- but that doesn't mean power is bad- or that it isn't the best of bad choices.

One layer of the onion affects the other layers

Dear Foxy,

«And Israel's policies and practices have not changed since its inception as the following quotes show:»

Israel was never monolithic in views, there were many others, so I wonder why you only listed the most ugly quotes from the worst scum of Israeli leaders?

Many Israeli leaders wanted to treat the so-called-Palestinians well and give them back their land, some even tried but the so-called-Palestinians stabbed them in the back and decimated the Israeli peace movement.

«but nothing happens because the US block anything from happening and supports Israel.»

Forget about that silly US: nothing happens solely because Israel is strong and does not need to ask for anybody's permission to do what it wants. I wish the same could be said about Australia.

---

Dear Canem Malum,

«I believe that the Palistine / Israel borders can be altered to accommodate the sacred sites of both cultures»

It is not as simple because there are many more than just two cultures there. Israel's society is roughly divided into four main sections with little in common that already find living together difficult: secular, religious-nationalists, Haredi-Orthodox and Arab-Muslim. Palestinian society is also deeply divided between secular and Muslim.

The only valid border is the pre-1967 line with absolutely no alterations.

«I agree that Israel may be too small for all of the Hebrew diaspora of the world- which includes all of the millions of Hebrews living in the US.»

Why do you call them "Hebrews"? Most of them cannot speak Hebrew, a portion of them can read the Hebrew prayers, but only mechanically without understanding their meaning.

Israelis developed a unique new Hebrew culture. Most of the Jewish diaspora who were not born there would therefore never really fit or feel at home in Israel, regardless of its size.

Foxy,

The land was stolen from the Jews originally. If you are going to use the right of first possession then all the land is Jewish.

If you are looking at more recently then you need to protest the 50% of Poland that Russia took and expelled the Poles and the 50% of Finland that Russia took and expelled the Finns. Not to forget Tibet etc.