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The Forum > General Discussion > Western Civilisation In Crisis

Western Civilisation In Crisis

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Western civilisation is in crisis. Abandoned by our political class, we have lost faith in our culture. Some of us still believe in the things that once made the West the best, but there just aren't enough of us. Conservatives and Liberals alike have thrown in the towel. The barbarians seem to have won; they are relentlessly corrupting and degrading everything we once held dear - with little or no resistance.

Our rich and proud history is one victim, thanks to Marxist influence over the national curriculum; the West is virtually ignored.

Historian, Mervyn Bendle, wonders why HSC students need to be bothered with the question, 'To what extent did competing versions of Marxism affect Chinese politics from 1966 to 1989?'.

"Of all the things that happened in that period, why would students be required to focus on the arcane and murderous disputes within the Chinese Communist Party?", he asks. Fair question!

Could it be because the examiners think such knowledge is relevant because they believe, hope, that the world is heading towards Communism and the insanity of Marxist economics?

I think that suspicions that we are moving towards world communism are not entirely exaggerated or out of the question, given the anti-democratic behaviour of the Western political class seen around Covid, climate change, political correctness and identity politics, plus globalisation seemingly being more important to our 'leaders' than our sovereignty.

The WTO risibly thought that China would become more like us through free trade; but, we are becoming more like China, thanks not to China itself, but to our own extreme Left wing fanatics pulling the strings of our cowardly politicians whose only interest lies in maintaining their highly paid jobs.

The ongoing victories of the Left will ensure that we "will be delivered into the hands of the fanatics of the extreme Left where lunacy, delusion, and even treason reign supreme …"
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 21 November 2021 11:00:07 AM
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Western civilisation has been in suicide mode ever since Academics have infiltrated Politics !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 21 November 2021 3:46:03 PM
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We have indeed become more like China, but it's nothing to do with marxism or even left versus right.
It's that when illegal or corrupt actions occur, the government are siding with the perpetrators and trying to silence the whistleblowers.
Both in small things like Tony Abbott's daughter's scholarship, and big things like unlawful killings by our soldiers in Afghanistan and the East Timor embassy bugging, the government has been misusing our legal system to persecute those who've done the right thing.

And most people on this board side with the government, not realising it makes them part of the problem.
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 22 November 2021 8:34:32 AM
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This is more a whinge, bemoaning the good old days of empire and the Europeans dominance of the world. The days when the colonial powers could lord it over the inferior races of Africa, India, Asia and the rest of the world, whilst at home minorities and the poor were treated with contempt, all being brutalised and exploited.

Thankfully colonialism has gone and the fractious struggle of a post war world has seen many who once had no voice, are now having their rightful say. Indigenous, and minorities, alone with the mass of the past disadvantaged in society are now claiming their rightful place. The once poor man of Asia, China is exerting a dominance both economically and militarily in the world at the expense of the previously unchallenged power of the West, and the West don't like it.

There are those who hanker for "the good old days" of European dominance and privilege, but the reality is no matter how much some moan and whinge such days are gone forever and will not return.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 22 November 2021 8:40:49 AM
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Paul 1405,

I'm not whingeing about anything; I'm stating facts. I am not a European or a colonist. I am an Australian, and I don't remember my country lording it "over the inferior races of Africa, India, Asia and the rest of the world". Why do you describe Africans, Indians and Asians as "inferior"?

Presumably you are thinking of the British Empire, when Australia was ALSO A COLONY being lorded over. It's about time you got over those days, or at least made an attempt to understand them.

In your second paragraph you even admit that "colonialism has gone", while you remain fixated on two century old history that has nothing to do with Australia any longer or to this topic.

Your hatred of the West, your country and culture, makes you a pathetic, irrelevant little person.

When I wrote "we are becoming more like China, thanks not to China itself, but to our own extreme Left wing fanatics ….", the extreme Left wing fanatics I was referring to were the ones pulling your strings, such as Herr Bandt and his fellow fascists.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 22 November 2021 9:56:23 AM
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Western Civilisation in Crisis?

Joseph Tainter, an anthropologist at Utah State University,
and author of "The collapse of complex societies," offers
a bleak outlook in an article in New Scientist. As does
David Brooks writing in The New York Times.

Tainter thinks that the pressing issue to tackle - is the
twindling rate of invention relative to investment in
R & D (Research and Development), as the world's problems become
harder to solve.

"I forsee a pattern in the future where technological innovation
is not going to bail us out as it has in the past," he says.

So the question - Is the West really on the ropes?

We're told - perhaps. If we don't reduce our dependency on
fossil fuels, tackle inequality, and find a way to stop elites
from squabbling among themselves, things will not end well.

In Tainter's view, if the West makes it through, it will be more
luck than good judgement.

" We are a species that muddles through," he says.

"That's all we've ever done, and all we'll ever do."
Posted by Foxy, Monday, 22 November 2021 12:40:17 PM
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ttbn, Ignote the regular Marxist terrorist posting on this thread, he is excited that Western culture is being overcome by Marxist violence and atheistic principles. Remember the enemy is out to destroy, kill and harrass decency, goodness and self control. They laud the terror and violence of African nations and the right to rule the people like the CCP. We are living in the period the Bible calls "when the Man of Sin is revealed" when the influence of the Spirit of Christ is removed from society. The Bible predicts that the spirit of the Satan will rule in the Earth and people will mourn. Their freedoms and independence will give way to feelings of slavery.
Posted by Josephus, Monday, 22 November 2021 4:03:37 PM
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How can you be a marxist for defending western civilisation?

Yes, there are problems, but western civilisation is alive and well. But not the version some on here want, although I am not sure what hat actually is.

Please explain.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Monday, 22 November 2021 6:01:14 PM
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Josephus

You might be interested to read Mervyn Bendle's article, freely available in Quadrant Online. Titled, 'The Left's War on Faith, it is topped by a photograph of a mob surrounding a placard saying, "If Jesus returns kill him again", courtesy of 'undoJesus.org'.

Fewer and fewer people now know of the role of Christianity in the success of the West. More and more of them sneer at the fact. The Marxist war on Christianity is almost won.
Posted by ttbn, Monday, 22 November 2021 6:11:24 PM
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ttbn, a correction to my post, the word inferior should read "inferior", as in the way European colonists viewed indigenous people, and people of colour, as inferior in their grand world order during colonial times. Nowhere in your opening post did you mention Australia, so to assert that I am a hater of my country and culture is unfounded. As for you, I'm not sure, or much care, what you are.

According to you there is a crises resulting in a loss of faith in western culture today, along with a ridiculous claim that we are coming more like China. If todays western society is unacceptable to you, where in the past during supposedly happier times do you think our society should be. If moaning and whinging about todays society is all you have got then its a pointless discussion. You reject our modern progressive society and hanker for something else, but do not say what that something else should be. You are not just old of age, you are old of thinking as well, a credulous old bloke well past his use by date.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 22 November 2021 10:41:32 PM
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We live in a society that has an education system that is dumbing down the next generation to believe lies as fact, and Western Governments as evil, yet the innocent refugees see the values of Western society and flock there. The lies all relate to debunking the role of God in creational design and purpose, and the promotion of the values of the 666 the supremacy of man [you will be as god].

Criminals are made heroes and promoted as worthy to be followed. Like George Floyd or Rosenbaum who was a convicted sex offender who was barred from possessing a firearm, according to a July report from the Associated Press. Huber was previously convicted of domestic abuse and disorderly conduct in 2018. He also spent time in prison in 2012 after assaulting choking his own brother.Yet they are lauded as worthy souls while Kyle was called a murderer for defending their assult on him.
Posted by Josephus, Tuesday, 23 November 2021 6:59:52 AM
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Paul,

You must be pushing 70 yourself by now. You are certainly in no position to be sneering at "old blokes"; and you are already a cross between Joe Biden and Jackie Lambie, whose appalling rant in the Senate yesterday - due to inebriation or a mental breakdown - clearly shows the need for a tightening up of eligibility for upper house çandidates. The Senate is currently a sheltered workshop for the simple minded and Greens - pretty much the same thing. You would be a shoo in if you ever decided to try politics.

Josephus,

Add the likes of Paul 1405 and the Greens to reasons why our society is sinking fast. They have an insane hatred of Western civilisation, even as they take advantage of its benefits.

I'm glad that I'm one of the despised and sneered at older generation. I've seen and experienced the best of the West and of Australia. I will be quite happy to leave the coming chaos to these ignorant smartarses who think they have all the answers.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 23 November 2021 7:57:52 AM
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"the good old days" of European dominance and privilege,
Paul1405,
You lament the loss of your mob's dominance a lot more than the Europeans do ! It shines through via hatred in just about every one of your posts.
Posted by individual, Tuesday, 23 November 2021 8:52:34 AM
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"your mob's dominance", pray tell Indy, what mob is that? I identify as an Australian, born and bred, nothing more or nothing less. The fact I oppose an ardent racists such as yourself, doesn't make me lesser of an Australian than anyone else. I believe you are of some undisclosed nationality from a distant land, possibly Alabama in 1950.

ttbn, age has nothing to do with it, David who posts on this Forum from time to time is, I believe in his 90's, yet is a progressive thinker, susceptible to modern ideas and has a very positive outlook. Unlike you who is the most negative poster on the Forum, always whinging and whining, down on all those who are not like you, fortunatly you being part of a minuscule minority, the half a percent mob. Following your active flirtation with the a far right fascists and his party, and its quick removal from the political landscape by the voting public, you nowdays launch into bitter attacks on all moderate progressives. Of course you never attack the extremes of the right, Hanson and Palmer, just content to silently support such fools.

While you were "crying in your beer", I attended a fringe festival on the weekend where the talents of young, and the not so young, were on display. I have nothing but confidence that tomorrows generation will improve the world, and not drag it down as an old naysayer like you would have us believe.

Proud Boy Jose' as one who supported far right violence in Washington January 6th wake up fella, you are in the company other ratbags who call me Marxists, I call you a NAZI. Your belief that Marxists are everywhere is laughable.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 23 November 2021 11:13:16 AM
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If "age has nothing to do with it", Paul, why are you always trying to belittle me and other blokes by calling us "old farts"? You are an ageist who abuses people for being old. Perhaps you are so far into la la land that you can’t remember what you have said to and about people.

If 90 year old David wasn't a Lefty like you, you would be calling him an old fart, too.

As for me being 'negative' - bullshite! Having opinions different from yours is not negative. I'm very positive and sincere about what I think.

Your problem , I believe, comes from your own ageing and regret for a long gone youth when people might have taken notice of you - where they now laugh at you behind your back, if not yet to your face. That will come, too. We all know about old women being described as 'mutton dressed up as lamb'. There is the psychological equivalent in males, and you are it. You probably think you are still amusing to young women, who laugh at you, or think that you are a dirty old man.

Rubbishing people who are old, who, unlike you, appreciate being old and wouldn't want to go through the traumas of youth again for quids, will not help your personal problems, you poor, sad fellow.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 23 November 2021 12:46:43 PM
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Dear Paul,

The Western civilization narrative of the past as
David Brooks points out and what most of us grew
up with was an accumulation of great ideas and innovations,
which we acquired from the Egyptians, through Athens,
Magna Carta, The Age of Faith, the Rennaissance, and the
Declaration of the Rights of Man.

There were certain great figures like Socrates,
who helped propel nations to higher reaches
of the humanistic ideal.

This Western narrative came with certain values.
It set a standard for what great
statesmanship looked like. It set a framework within which
political argument could happen and most importantly provided
a set of common goals.

However, beginning decades ago many people, especially in
institutions of higher learning began to question the
Western civilization narrative.

Today we have many who blame
academia for teaching a "darker" view of history, one that
stresses a history of oppression dealing with things like
the slave trade, racism, and imperial militarism.

This unfortunately reflects a lack of understanding the
perspective of the courses at institutions of higher learning
that deal with global history.

Yes the courses do deal
with oppression but they do not neglect the economic,
political and cultural contributions that Western colonial
rulers also made. They try to present a more balanced viewpoint.

What should be concerning to us all is the fact that over the
past few years there have been negative changes. We have
entered the age of authoritarian men - from Putin, Xi-jinping,
Kim-Jong-un (and Donald Trump).

Institutionalized party-based authoritarian regimes like
China and Russia are turning into premodern cults of
personality. Unstable and dangerous.

When Donald Trump was running for office he violated every norm
of statesmanship built up over many centuries and many Americans
did not notice or care.

In Europe new political parties are rising up - and heaven
help us if they grow. As David Brooks says:

"... If you think that the whole idea of Western civilization
is reactionary and oppressive, wait until you get a load
of the world that comes after it."
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 23 November 2021 1:35:49 PM
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Australia's academia, unless it has changed recently, is largely incapable of answering questions about where western civilisation is heading in these more difficult times
Posted by Chris Lewis, Tuesday, 23 November 2021 3:26:04 PM
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The climate con and Net Zero politics are helping to transition us from democratic capitalism to feudal serfdom and contributing to the downfall of the West, at enormous cost to the working and middle classes, with loss of manufacturing jobs, and increasing prices, particularly in housing and energy. There are constant threats to food supplies with attacks on farmers and carping on what we should be eating. The piffle about a few hundred thousand new jobs that ‘might’ be created by unreliable energy is absurd, given that our workforce is approximately 13 million.

Technocratic elites are establishing themselves as our rulers, and have never-before-seen in the West totalitarianism and abuse of freedoms afforded to the elites by Covid 19 and a total lack of opposition.

Our government doesn’t have the guts to tell us just how worse off we will be, but a UK report does admit that the costs will ultimately “pass through to households”. We are already paying for subsidies to unreliable energy and Big Business, and to people with the highest incomes, who emit 3 times as much CO2 as the lowest income earners.

Taking action on climate change simply means taking away jobs, cars, housing, electricity and food from the lowest income earners.

The West has already started to change fundamentally.
Posted by ttbn, Tuesday, 23 November 2021 3:45:04 PM
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yes, recent trends hardly good for many.

House prices increasing twice rate of wages, not to mention much higher rents for those not able to purchase.

Hard to know what will play out in next 20 years, but signs are not good.

If push towards renewables makes many more struggle due to much higher prices, then dissent is likely to increase further
Posted by Chris Lewis, Tuesday, 23 November 2021 4:11:28 PM
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Foxy, a good article.
I was watching the SBS last night and the rise of America from the Plymouth Puritans to those following seeking land grabs. It began as a religious colony to those who followed to stealing land from the original occupiers till law and order applied. Though cheap labour was imported from Africa.

Originally Western Christianity was about advancing a culture to all nations, but in every situation was followed by slave traders and labour opportunists. Businesses are still looking for cheap labour, that has nothing to do with Western Christian culture.

I am connected to missions in West Papua where we are training the locals self determination skills like Coffee plantations and the use of local timbers, However businesses are moving into the area looking at mining etc which will bring in undesirable culture.
Posted by Josephus, Tuesday, 23 November 2021 5:08:23 PM
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Quote Article: "Why the Radical Left DESTROYS Our Cities | Michael Shellenberger | Ep 122
Author Michael Shellenberger knows the radical Left. In high school, he joined the Sandinistas. As an environmentalist, he worked alongside eco-anarchists. In the 1990s, he literally designed policy with George Soros. But the progressives of today scare him. The Left is attacking every single institution. These modern leftists want to destroy our country and everything that makes it wonderful. In this episode of "The Glenn Beck Podcast," Shellenberger reveals the Left's anti-civilization agenda. His latest book, "San Fransicko: Why Progressives Ruin Cities," challenges many of the Left's recent myths and delusions and exposes the Left's tendency to completely destroy cities, which are where leftists happen to be most concentrated. Shellenberger came away from writing "San Fransicko" convinced that everyone should be pro-police. "If you really care about black lives, you should be pro-police," he tells Glenn. "San Fransicko" has already pissed off progressives. They have responded exactly the way Shellenberger describes in the book: by ignoring the data and attacking him personally and pretending he doesn't know what he's talking about. He does. This interview proves it."
Posted by Josephus, Tuesday, 23 November 2021 5:23:56 PM
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Quote:
"My name is Bill Gray, and I’m the associate vice president of national donor outreach at Hillsdale College. It’s my responsibility to invite like-minded conservatives (like you!) to support Hillsdale.

I don’t use the word “battle” lightly, but with the stakes so high one must be blunt.

It’s clear to me that we are in a fight for the future of our nation—a fight against progressives who are targeting our youngest citizens. These so-called “progressives” seek to undermine traditional patriotism and ultimately transform American government and society.

The New York Times’ recent “1619 Project” is the prime example of this effort to inject into the minds of our youngest citizens a biased distortion of our nation’s history.

If you haven’t heard, the “1619 Project” places the founding of America in 1619, when the first slave arrived in Jamestown, rather than in 1776 when the Declaration of Independence proclaimed that “all men are created equal” and endowed by God with “unalienable rights.” “Our democracy’s founding ideals,” the “1619 Project” claims, “are false when they were written.

Outrageous!

The New York Times’ stated goal with the “1619 Project” is to influence the curricula of K-12 schools nationwide. They teach young people that slavery—not freedom—is and always will be the central and defining idea of the American experience, making our country irredeemable.

This project has garnered universal acclaim from the news media. In fact, the lead essayist just won a Pulitzer Prize! There are even talks about making the “1619 Project” into a feature film.
Posted by Josephus, Tuesday, 23 November 2021 6:05:05 PM
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ttbn,

OLD FART. DEFINITION; someone who is boring and old-fashioned. A Person who does not like change.

Could be 18 or 80, but that's you.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 23 November 2021 9:17:18 PM
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Hi Foxy,

As far as history goes, all I'm asking for is 'truth telling', the sanitized version of the past as told from an unchallenged European perspective is no longer acceptable, and needs to be called out. The fact that the truth upsets certain people is too bad, one here affectively calls me a traitor to my country and my culture for saying so. It was possible to articulate a misleading account of history as the only tellers were those that had a vested interest in portraying history from a biased European standpoint. It ruffles a few feathers to think that minorities today have the audacity to demand simple truth telling of history.

You said; "What should be concerning to us all is the fact that over the past few years there have been negative changes. We have entered the age of authoritarian men - from Putin, Xi-jinping, Kim-Jong-un (and Donald Trump)." Its not new, we're fought with tyrants in various ways from Neapolitan to Adolf Hitler for hundreds of years. That's not to say we should not resist tyranny wherever it exists, but we certainly can't respond to these events in a simple militaristic way. In the case of China the old gunboat diplomacy doesn't work anymore, its a far too complex and powerful relationship for that.

"... If you think that the whole idea of Western civilization is reactionary and oppressive, wait until you get a load of the world that comes after it." Well yes, but that's like saying it better to shoot yourself in the foot than the head, and I don't think that at all. Some aspects of Western civilization need reform, and progressive people work to instigate those reforms. Our universal liberal democracy is a relatively new process, its only been with us in certain countries for a very short time, about 100 years or so. It's fragile, and not only do we need to protect it from external threats, but internal threats as well, from extremist of all persuasions.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 7:41:09 AM
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No matter the topic. No matter who raises it. Discussions invariably end up with a tunnel-visioned, self-congratulatory discussion beween (there aren't of enough them to say 'among') the Leftist wankerati. Small wonder fewer people bother initiating a topic these days.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 8:14:30 AM
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Dear Joshephus,

Pray tell where would the US democracy be if progressives hadn't torn down slavery, given women the vote, and forced civil rights through its statute books.
Posted by SteeleRedux, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 8:36:50 AM
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SR, Who were the progressives whose principles were that all persons were created equal.
Posted by Josephus, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 8:47:49 AM
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Josephus,
> The New York Times’ stated goal with the “1619 Project” is to influence the curricula of K-12 schools nationwide.
Fair enough.

> They teach young people that slavery—not freedom—is and always will be the central
> and defining idea of the American experience, making our country irredeemable.
I've seen many cases here of people putting 2 and 2 together and making twenty two. But I think this is the first instance they've made forty two... thinking that putting a neglected part of history onto the curriculum will make it take over life, the universe and everything!

And of course everyone should be pro police. But being pro police does NOT mean opposing holding the police accountable for their actions, nor opposing limiting police powers. And, as David Leyonhjelm has proved here on multiple occasions, you don't have to be left wing to oppose policing by overwhelming force.

There are serious threats to western civilisation, as I've mentioned further up the thread. But right wingers tend to ignore these and instead focus on a "radical left" that's mostly (though not entirely) imaginary.
Posted by Aidan, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 8:50:32 AM
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Yes Proud Boy Jose'

Its so malicious of people to mention slavery in America, after all you know it was no more than a passing aberration, nothing more than an isolated incident in American history. Possibly one or two may have been enslaved, but they were quickly released. Rather than entertaining what was a non-event, wouldn't you much prefer to think of the Pilgrim Fathers, and shouldn't colonial American history be based on re-runs of the Daniel Boone Show.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 8:57:31 AM
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The meeting of the Continental Congress 1776;

James; "I've knocked up the D of I on the good old Commodore 64, you've all got a copy".

George; "What's this bit about, "All Men Are Created Equal" sounds a bit Bolshy. What about the Black Fellas?

James; "It don't include the BLACK FELLAS, George!"

George; "That's good, I've got a bunch of em' work'n my cotton field at the moment for nicks, wouldn't be right if they were equal.

James; " Well George you're safe. Anyone else"

Benjamin; "Jimmy, what you've got here is the Indians are equal with US!"

James; "Nah, Benny it goes without saying, the Indians arn't equal, otherwise we couldn't shoot em', and steal their land."

The Lads; "True, true, very true, good point Jimmy."

Thomas; "Does this include WOMEN!"

James; "Of course not Tom! Women, are good for cleaning, cooking and having babies. Not good for constitutional stuff like us guys. You guys should know the pecking order by now, men first, then boys, the horse, the family cow then the women and girls. We're not included the horse and cow have we, why would we include women!"

The Lads; "True, true, very true, good point Jimmy."

James; "All in favour say I"....carried.... next topic, the pesky British."
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 9:38:15 AM
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I think this is germane to the discussion. Google has flagged this post as having "Potentially policy-violating user-generated content". I can't for the life of me see what it is, but it leads to Google not posting any ads to the page. When even discussing whether Western Civilisation is in crisis is problematic, it really is in crisis.
Posted by GrahamY, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 2:51:46 PM
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wow Graham, that is ridiculous.

An important topic to discuss.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 3:14:59 PM
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Very sad state of affairs indeed!
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 3:24:52 PM
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The whole world is in crisis, its been that way since Adam first bit on the apple. Graham, what is Mr Google afraid of, the Colonel might read something that causes him to choke on his chicken, and not buy any more advertising. ttbn was entitled to raise this topic, and I can't see anything that follows that would violate anything. What's this "Potentially policy-violating user-generated content" anyway. What policy, is it laid out, and how would it potentially be violated.

Maybe we should limit discussion to such topics as;

"Basket weaving for beginners"
"Gardening for those with green thumbs"

There's probably not much in those topics that would offend Mr Google, but you never know.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 3:47:13 PM
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It could be that google picks up name-calling.

I would like to believe that no sane operation would stop western civilisation from being discussed, besides the CCP and its allies.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 4:31:15 PM
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"Technocratic elites are establishing themselves as our rulers ..." might have set Google alarm bells off. Google is one of the technocratic elites.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 6:33:55 PM
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I identify as an Australian, born and bred,
Paul1405,
So do millions of other hypocrites !
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 6:48:45 PM
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People are slowly coming to realise that our politicians and unelected puppeteers are wrecking our civilisation.

For instance, the demonstrations for freedom against Andrews are the biggest since 1967, when there were demonstrations against the hanging of Ronald Ryan.

People are demonstrating all over the world against the new totalitarianism and loss of freedoms.
Posted by ttbn, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 6:55:23 PM
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Not so ttbn, utter rubbish, the Anti Vietnam War Moratorium of 1970 held in Melbourne is the largest protest rally ever in Australia.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 7:08:25 PM
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Dear Graham,

I just need a clarification:
How come this "google" can flag a page on your web-site which is not theirs? What does this flag mean? What can they do to us?

Here, I stick my tongue at them, I am not afraid - what can they do to me?

---

Dear Ttbn,

«"Technocratic elites are establishing themselves as our rulers ..." might have set Google alarm bells off. Google is one of the technocratic elites.»

So true, but isn't this "google" thing a product of Western culture?
Aren't advertisements the product of Western culture, this greed-driven attempt to tempt weak people to waste their hard-earned money on things they never intended to?

Being so, why would you be so much in love with Western culture?

It seems that with evil conglomerates like that, what's there to lose - we could even be better off at the mercy of governments... (themselves also, a Western-culture invention!). Wouldn't we be relatively better off with some government-run ad-free search engine and E-mail service, etc.?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 24 November 2021 11:58:54 PM
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I don't think western civilisation is in crisis.

But I do agree the easy days for the West are over.

It may well be that dissent over many issues today may lead to better debate to address some key issues.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Thursday, 25 November 2021 8:39:23 AM
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Chris,

If there is no crisis, what is the reason for the loss of "easy days"?

What is your definition of easy? Isn't life in the West "easy" only because of Western mores? And, therefore, what we have and what we have earned is under threat because of a breakdown (crisis) in those mores? The alternative to the "ease" of democracy is the "hard" of totalitarianism. We haven't had the good life in the West though luck.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 25 November 2021 9:38:40 AM
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The facts remain that notwithstanding all the great science
and all the great innovations only a minority of our
fellow human beings are benefiting.

Yet we can be optimistic. If we, the middle class can have
the life-saving and life-rewarding tools of modernity, so can
everyone as long as there are not too many of us.

This is a fundamental caveat. The planet we have come to
inhabit is very small. The experts who measure human demands on
the planet suggest if - by some miracle of economics we everyone
living today can have a middle-class lifestyle, we would need
immediately two or three planet earths.

Humans do have the intelligence , the tools, and the natural
resources to provide for a good sustainable life as long as
there are not so many humans that we exceed the globe's
carrying capacity.

All the evidence suggests that we must turn around population
growth and aim for a much smaller population than we have today.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 25 November 2021 10:05:56 AM
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after the second world war, US and Western allies dominated.

With the loss of manufacturing, our decline was offset by greater trade and the promotion of services fuelled by higher and higher debt levels.

But now the ammunition is largely spent.

The end result is that Western leaders today have few real ideas how to adapt. More of the same is their motto, although the push towards greener energy is interesting.

While I am hardly a conservative, and detested Trump (apart from his China stance), I think some of the concerns evident amongst the right around the world can influence change that will help the West survive.

I think we will get the balance right, assuming the left and right can find common ground.

Here I am mainly talking economic survival.

As for many of the social gains in recent decades, I am generally in agreement albeit they cost a pretty penny and have to be paid for.

And the values of the West, pluralism ad the rule of law, are self-evident against authoritarian evil.

I hope that makes some sense.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Thursday, 25 November 2021 10:13:31 AM
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Thank You Chris.

It makes a great deal of sense.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 25 November 2021 10:18:16 AM
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Chris,

A lot of 'you think' but not much substance. You are basically a good, well meaning bloke, but rather hopeful and naive. Your final sentence points to your naivety:

"And the values of the West, pluralism ad (sic) the rule of law, are self-evident against authoritarian evil".

It is "self-evident", even in our own country, that Western values are wilting in the face of "authoritarian evil". We have lost so many freedoms, very suddenly, over a bug that has a mild effect on people under 70, and kills only some people at the average life expectancy for Australians. We now have enormous pressure for an unconstitutional requirement for compulsory vaccination in non-medical, non-carer jobs, even though the vaccinated can transmit the disease as easily as the unvaccinated. We are gradually being pushed into carrying certification that we are vaccinated. We are being lumbered with increasing costs of energy, housing, food etc in the name of climate change and the rich who want to be richer, even if it means the loss of democracy. We still cannot travel as freely as we should be able to in our own country.

If you take any notice at all of world events, you will know that suggestions and rumblings of extending this fascism into other areas of our lives abound.

Politicians and unelected bureaucrats have never had such control over us. They are about to decide what is religious faith and what is not from a base, in many cases, of no faith of their own, or straight out atheism, thus violating the separation of religion and state. They do not listen to us at all. One example being the news about a return to the of the highest mass immigration in the world, despite Australians' opposition. A poll yesterday shows that only 20% want a return to pre-Covid immigration levels; 7% want an increase, and 58% want a resumption of immigration at much lower levels. My money is on at least the same as before, with a likely increase, despite what Australians think.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 25 November 2021 11:21:06 AM
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I'm sorry to say, Chris, that it is gullible people like you who are the cause of the crisis in Western civilisation; and, the thing is, it's people like you and younger who will suffer. Not us old conservatives who know history.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 25 November 2021 11:26:16 AM
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OK ttbn, sorry you think I am gullible and naive.

You could be right.

But, while your mates were ignoring reality about China and our our reliance of trade with that country, it was naive me that predicted the folly of such a strategy and that the US will rise and resist.

I don't remember anyone at Sky, Quadrant or other right wing forums saying much.

But they do now because they have woken up.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Thursday, 25 November 2021 11:34:38 AM
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but I know tbn, you may come back and say but no one reads you.

At least I can say I got published in one of your favourite rags Quadrant when Paddy was editor.

I only offer my opinion, and you obviously don't have to agree with it just as I don't always agree with the right wing sooks about what is supposedly wrong about the West.

The fact that a govt may ignore the majority on immigration hardly tells me anything about the demise of the West. such events often happen. You need to read more
Posted by Chris Lewis, Thursday, 25 November 2021 11:41:26 AM
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Few more predictions ttbn from myself.

The great liberal democracies (including Australia) will remain happily multi-ethnic forever with most accepting the key views and values that bind us together, and renewable energy will get bigger and bigger in coming decades
Posted by Chris Lewis, Thursday, 25 November 2021 12:36:09 PM
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Chris,

I don't have mates. It's what I thought of, and still think of China that's important to me; and I was always sceptical of the WHO's and the money-hungry Westerners' absurd entanglement with Communist China. That's something we have in common, and we have been proved right. I take no responsibility for what is said on Sky, or in Quadrant. I'm sometimes in agreement with the content, and sometimes I'm not. I'm not sure what the "other right wing forums are". Sky is not a forum, and as I don't subscribe to Quadrant, I cannot comment on what is put out there.

I don't know what made you think that I would "come back and say but no one reads you". I read your posts, and even some of your articles, as long as they are not about sport - although, I have to say that I am getting tired of bothering with people who don't think the same as I do. There's no point really. The society that I grew up in has almost disappeared. I'm apparently an 'old fart' and a right wing 'sook'; so why would I give a continental about what happens to, uneducated, totally ignorant of what's coming their way, upcoming generations. You continue thinking things are going to be fine and dandy.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 25 November 2021 1:26:41 PM
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OK, thanks for reading ttbn.

I always read your posts.

I do think that most of us have strengths within our arguments.

I also admire anyone that is prepared to write an article or post, especially on OLO which is fortunate to have diverse opinions in contrast to most other sites where there my more general agreement oe even censorship.

I don't like it when people get personal, but I am happy to be told I am wrong. I would like to think I have learned from criticism on OLO over the years.

My view about Western societies is that they have always reflected the battle of ideas.

And now we enter another period where tensions within society are again more evident
Posted by Chris Lewis, Thursday, 25 November 2021 1:42:13 PM
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Heres something I thought I'd share
- In the spirit of Western Civilisation in crisis

Look they even advertise how useless the vacinne is:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-11-25/covid-exposure-warning-dinner-party-superspreader-risk/100624140

"Catching COVID-19 still seemed like a fairly unlikely possibility when Charlotte and her old schoolfriends caught up over dinner in Melbourne's CBD recently, chatting, drinking and laughing together for the first time in many months.

Despite living through the city's lockdowns in 2020 and 2021, the 23-year-old didn't know anyone who had caught COVID.

The group of 13 was fully vaccinated, and they wore masks when they left the table where they spent about four hours together.

They had followed the rules, but a few days after their joyous reunion, 11 of them came down with COVID, making their dinner what one epidemiologist described as a 'superspreader' event.

For Ms Webster, confronting the fear and stigma attached to catching the virus was almost more challenging than the mild symptoms she experienced."

So 13 people have a dinner party...
Everyone's vaccinated
- and 11 people caught covid.

I wonder how much less sick they got because they were vaccinated?
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 25 November 2021 2:51:25 PM
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Here's some more garbage.. the next thing I read...

http://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/where-clive-palmer-was-wrong-with-his-covid-vaccine-claims-20211125-p59bzp.html

Mr Palmer also made a series of claims about COVID-19 vaccines, including safety and people’s rights in that interview. Many of his claims are incorrect. Here’s why.

Palmer: “I’ve been vaccinated with most vaccines except this one because it hasn’t gone through any testing”

To say the vaccine has gone through no testing is totally false. All the COVID-19 vaccines in use in Australia (and all vaccines approved here in general) have gone through a rigorous clinical trial process first, the third trial involving large numbers of people from different parts of the globe.

The data from those trials is then sent to medical regulators, including Australia’s Therapeutic Goods Administration. The head of the TGA, Professor John Skerritt, has stressed multiple times that the TGA has conducted the exact same approval process it uses for other vaccines and medicines. The difference here is they had 'more people working on it, and the work was being done around the clock'.

'more people working on it, and the work was being done around the clock'

If you think about it, its weasel words.
They're tricking you, because it doesn't actually make sense.

Say in the old days a study might take several years
- to see any long term side effects

How are they going to look at those long term side effects
- By hiring more people to get the job done twice as quick?

IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.

You can't shorten the time it takes to look at long term side effects - by hiring more people to do 'the job' faster.
Posted by Armchair Critic, Thursday, 25 November 2021 3:04:55 PM
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Hi Chris,

"My view about Western societies is that they have always reflected the battle of ideas."

I would say that is true, but only from the beginning of the Age of Enlightenment around 1650, about 400 years ago. Prior to that the superstition of Christianity was the dominant determinate of ideas and beliefs in Western society. There was far more debate and questioning from Middle Eastern and Asian scholars for at least 1500 years prior to the development of Western enlightenment. I can only point to the contributions made by Buddhism and Confucianism in the continuous development of humanity, which pre-dates any real Western contribution to human development.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 25 November 2021 3:15:07 PM
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Yes, very true Paul.

The contribution of the ancients (greek and roman), which influenced later thinkers, also owes much to ideas from earlier civilisations
Posted by Chris Lewis, Thursday, 25 November 2021 3:32:25 PM
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"I have to say that I am getting tired of bothering with people who don't think the same as I do. There's no point really. The society that I grew up in has almost disappeared. I'm apparently an 'old fart' and a right wing 'sook'"

ttbn, what do you want, this Forum to be an echo chamber of yours and other Old Farts beliefs and opinions? You seek to be the Forum arbitrator of what's acceptable and what's not. More than once you have told others, not of your belief, that their topics and posts are worthless and shouldn't be allowed to pollute "your" forum.

As for "Old Fart" its not insulting, its a Australian colloquial description, to describe people of your ilk. Just as "crying in your beer" is a colloquial expression, and you do a lot of that on this Forum.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 25 November 2021 6:16:27 PM
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Dear ttbn,

I feel for you, and that's true, and if you have sound on your PC please play this 'YouTube' song, when I'm down it a real pepper upper for me, I hope it helps you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNBCVM4KbUM&ab_channel=BobMarleyVEVO
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 25 November 2021 6:22:53 PM
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A few of the things that point to a crisis in Western society:

transgenderism
same sex marriage
rejection of truth for emotionalism
self- hatred and lack of self belief
identify politics
critical race theory
fall in educational standards
rejection Christian principles and practices
cultural relativism
favouring of perpetrators over victims and soft courts
rampart feminism and and misandry
irresponsible prejudging of rumoured offences by media
lack of action against women making false accusations of sexual assault.

They are just the obvious ones.
Posted by ttbn, Thursday, 25 November 2021 9:57:21 PM
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ttbn, I'm sure you have many, many more you could add to your list, in fact I'm sure you have grievances against 99.9 percent of the population.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 26 November 2021 5:13:02 AM
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Western civilisation is not in crisis, it has become a crisis thanks to Academia & it's utterly illogical mentality !
Posted by individual, Friday, 26 November 2021 7:08:49 AM
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Paul 1405,

Yes. You are right. There is much more that I could add to the list. Undoubtedly there are things I haven't thought of. Other people could add to my list, I'm sure.

I'm not concerned about your "99.9%". It's a minority of people that's causing the problems and bringing down the West, with the collusion - or the cowardice - of the political class. But you know that.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 26 November 2021 7:10:08 AM
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individual,

Yes, academics are have a considerable role in the continuing downfall of the West. But but citizens and the political class are enabling them and other traitors by doing and saying nothing. There is an appalling lack of interest in their future by ordinary people who think that democracy is a gift that cannot be taken away. If they think about it at all.
Posted by ttbn, Friday, 26 November 2021 7:19:06 AM
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I've just re-read Tor Hundloe's book -
"From Buddha to Bono: Seeking sustainability."

Hundloe writes from the perspective of an educator,
who sees it as the responsibility of scholars to enter
the real world debate. His fear is that the global
community remains blind to the limits nature imposes
on all life. The answer, he sees, lies in the
accumulated knowledge of good science and economics but
also, most critically, in human behaviour.

The book is worth a read.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 26 November 2021 9:51:44 AM
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A mini demonstration of the crisis is playing out in Canberra right now. Our government is out of control, with eight Coalition MPs crossing the floor in four days or threatening to do so. All down to lack of leadership, by a PM shouting 'Mr. Speaker' more often than any meaningful words. If it were not for the pandemic, Morrison would have been replaced before now. He has created a shambles. Were it not for the pandemic and proximity to the next election, he would not be in the job.

Labor must be loving it, and looking forward to being in government by default next year. The best that the Coalition can expect now is a minority government. And it seems that there would be no help from any cross-bench, if polling is anything to go by. The majority of voters who say they will take their votes away from the Coalition also say that they will be transferring to Labor, not the UAP, One Nation or the Liberal Democrats.

Similar appalling behaviour and loss of faith - in Western governments - is occurring all over the West. There is a crisis, and 'we ain't seen nothing yet'.
Posted by ttbn, Saturday, 27 November 2021 9:53:43 PM
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Morrison would have been replaced before now.
ttbn,
I am just as disappointed with Morrison as I am with Abbott. These blokes just don't seem to get it when it comes to people ! Frydenberg too is utterly ignorant of how public funding should be distributed !
Labor have never shown to be good enough either in matters of forward planning.
Posted by individual, Saturday, 27 November 2021 10:35:47 PM
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individual

Morrison stands for nothing. Abbott, like Keating, knows all the answers he didn’t know when he was PM. Freydenberg is a wet person who said that if we didn’t go to net zero the global bullies wouldn't like us. Our entire political class is rubbish.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 28 November 2021 6:37:57 AM
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ttbn,
All over the planet countries existed from day to day, some successfully, some not so but function they did. Enter Academics/Lawyers & get what we've got now !
Governments should be comprised of pragmatists not mere idealistic theorists who only exist because they hood-wink the impressionable vulnerable young with unworkable idealism.
Labor are good at that & the Coalition is stuck with the mutts opposing what little common sense there is.
Also, reintroduce a National Service which will bring about a comeback of common sense. No serving in National Service-no career in Politics. Simple !
Posted by individual, Sunday, 28 November 2021 7:29:29 AM
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Such negativity, the lament of the failed ones, old farts "crying in their beer", never having anything positive to say about anyone not like themselves. Pray tell fellas if the present crop is not worthy to be running the country, Labor or the Coalition, who is. Of course you wont name names as you will be ridiculed for your extremist choice.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 28 November 2021 8:18:59 AM
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individual,

I think we have to face the fact that nothing is going to change until we hit rock bottom. People have to experience the bad things that are coming. These bad things, brought about by bad people and bad decisions, are all there in history; but nobody cares to look.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 28 November 2021 9:16:03 AM
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I think it worthwhile to consider what David E. Springer,
an American lawyer, once said:

"At all times, vigilance is the price of liberty.
We must remain vigilant because while it might be
us today, it will be some other group down the road
20 years from now. The measure of our society over
history is our fidelity to our principles. We must
remind our government and our people to remain faithful
to those principles or otherwise our society, like so
many in the past, will be swept on the ash heap of
history.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 28 November 2021 9:26:19 AM
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individual,

The latest bit of bad behaviour has come from Morrison's and Freydenberg's attempt to get the disgraced-and-gone NSW ex premier into the federal seat of Warringah.

No wonder the Liberal party is haemorrhaging support. But what tragedy it is that lazy, thoughtless voters think that loathsome Labor is the only option. It is all part of the crisis in the West.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 28 November 2021 9:52:36 AM
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At least in our country our political system is not
deeply flawed. We don't have a large insane
over-reaching extremist element that has a great deal
of influence (as we saw under the Trump administration in
the US), and our courts are not completely loony.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 28 November 2021 10:13:49 AM
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individual,

Rather than doing anything to stop the downwards slide, Morrison has shown that he intends to ramp up the crisis by introducing legislation requiring Facebook to identify anonymous posters guilty of trolling or bullying. Who would decide what is trolling or bullying wasn't mentioned; but Barnaby Joyce and Rowan Dean did a whining duet on the things said about the former online when he was publicly making a fool of himself during a discussion on the plan. Not a big stretch, in my opinion, to suspect that censoring of comments on the political class is on the horizon.

The legislation would include the '100 points of ID' rigmarole to get a Facebook account. No other social media was mentioned, but .....

If Facebook, or whoever, doesn't come clean with an ID of a poster allegedly bullying or trolling, whatever that entails, Facebook or whoever will have to face the music.
Posted by ttbn, Sunday, 28 November 2021 1:50:48 PM
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