Five alternatives to Australia’s national flag have featured online, leading to debate over whether Australia's current flag should be changed.

The five designs have been put out recently, with all five flags paying reference to Australia's rich Aboriginal history.

http://www.news.com.au/technology/online/social/tiktok-erupts-in-debate-over-five-proposed-replacements-for-the-australian-national-flag/news-story/3958e21101ae854a58e70ce5f3a8447c?amp

What do you think of the designs and is there a need for change, particularly to see a move towards reconciliation in Australia?

Hi Nathan,

Out of the designs shown on the link you gave
I like the first design the best. However,
prior to us having a new flag should we not
decide as a nation whether we're going to
retain the Queen as our head of state and
break our ties with colonialism once and for all.
Otherwise what's the point of it all?

The obvious answer to your question is, no. There is absolutely no 'need' for us to change our flag. If you mean is there desire or wish to change the flag, that's a different matter altogether.

When I looked for a "recent poll" on the matter, I couldn't find one after 2016, and that was by some university which came up with a 64% 'yes', but given the reputation of universities, I wouldn't accept that one.

Why anyone would want to change the flag is a mystery. Our flag is part of our history and, just because we have gone all multicultural, it is extremely disrespectful of our past and the people who founded and built the country to even think of changing it.

The current flag has nothing to do with "colonialism" or the Queen. We haven't been a colony since Federation. The last referendum on republicanism was a real poke in the eye for the malcontented, and there hasn't been a serious question asked about the flag.

Australia is now a massively divided country which needs to get its act together before it starts mucking around with flags.

The fact that we only hear from you when you want to talk about some harebrained idea that you hear about somewhere (you don't participate in other people's posts and discussions generally), Nathan, gives me the pip. Make up your own mind about things.

In fact, it is pathetic and absurd to be wittering on about pissant subjects such flags with Covid, the China threat, lack of defence, debt, the self-serving useless politicians we have, not to mention the white-anting Left now present even in the only two parties we have to rely on to get something right. But, of course, it's the white-anting Left that's doing the wittering, and the rest of us are too browbeaten and tired to do anything about it. I'm thankful that I'm going towards the end of life and not starting out.

The following link may be of interest:

http://australianflag.net.au/index.php?option=com_content&<task=view8<id=108Itemid=92

cont'd ...

Oooops I've done it again - left something out.
Sorry I'll try again:

http://australianflag.net.au/index.php?option=com_content&<task=view8<id=108*<itemid=92

I'm having a problem with the link I'm trying
to give. It's worth a read. It's from the
Australian National Flag Association in Queensland.
However if you put in "Debating Resources - Australian Flag."
You should be able to access it on Google.

The current flag is fine apart from then bogus cross of St Patrick and as that piece of BS has been on the Union Flag for around 220 years it can stay.

As if a new flag would change anyone's present mentality !
Flags don't turn morons into thinking people !

The flag was voted for on a popular ballot in 1901. But given the millennials indecision perhaps we can have a variety of Australian flags perhaps one a week or even a Monday/Tuesday..etc flag?

shadowminister,
A real job would take the Millennials mind off flags !

Foxy,

Is this what you were trying to link?

http://australianflag.net.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=108&Itemid=92

You know Foxy, you don't need to retype the entire link address into the comment. You can use the 'copy/paste functions and then you won't get those typos you constantly have. ie

1. Open the page you want to link.
2. Hightlight the URL - the whole of the URL.
3. Type ctrl+C or right-click and select the 'copy' option while the URL is highlighted.
4. Go to the spot you want to place in the comment where you want to place the link and type Ctrl+P or right click and select the 'paste' option.
5. Remember to delete the 's' from 'https' to make it 'http'

There are very few things Philip Adams says that I agree with. But I've always liked his idea about the flag: don't have one.

Become the first and only nation on earth to decide to not have a flag. Now that would get the world's attention.

Just imagine the tears flowing as the various gold medallists stood on the podium while the nation dirge played and NOTHING was raised up the pole.

Just imagine the pride and the slight feeling of homesickness you feel as you travelled the world knowing that every time you saw an empty flag-pole, it represented your country.

Philip Adams was, is, and will always be, a raving idiot. A flag is an essential means of identification.

Foxy, again I will again reccomend that you install Tinyurl and it will
save you no end of trouble.
Go to tinyurl.com and install it.

I have never heard of tinyurl, nor do I know what it does.
However my immediate thought was that this was the place Donald Trump would go to set up his new Social Media platform.
Back to the task at hand, keep the current flag, there's nothing really wrong with it. Having the Southern Cross on board is good enough for me.

mhaze,

Big hug.

Thank You.

The current flag represents 5 crosses of our culture and heritage and three colours of aspiration, purity and blood of toil. If the aborigionals do not like the Southern cross under which they lived for thousands of years; why are we representing them with black the colour of death and depression. How much of the early culture of aboriginals have we adopted as our culture?

At the rate of multiculturalism it might be we have a new flag each week until we fly the flag of China, as all our goods already have their stamp on them. The red flag of blood and toil with yellow stars, earthly aspirations.

cont'd ...

And thanks for the link.

That's the link I was trying to give. I thought
I was losing my mind. (perhaps it's not what it used to be).
Anyway, the link is worth a read and I think it sums things
up rather well - and gives people something to think about
at least.

is, and will always be, a raving idiot.
ttbn,
I listen to his program just to hear how silly people can actually be !

individual,

I find that there is enough Leftist idiocy on OLO without punishing myself with the ABC. I'm amazed that Adams is still around. But, if the old adage that only the good die young is true, he'll be around for ever.

Josephus,
Four crosses, the vexillology absurdity that is the so-called Cross of St. Patrick represents nothing more than one Irish Norman family and an obscure order of knights.

mhaze,

<<There are very few things Philip Adams says that I agree with. But I've always liked his idea about the flag: don't have one.>>

Then why is he involved with Ausflag?

http://www.ausflag.com.au/directors.asp

"Ausflag was established in 1981 by Harold Scruby and other interested Australians supporting the idea of a new flag for Australia."

http://www.ausflag.com.au/aboutus.asp

I've though more about this idea of a new flag.

Why don't we get rid of the Union Jack - we have
enough tributes to our British heritage as it is.

What we should perhaps consider is a national flag that
will be neutral and encompass all cultures within
these shores. We're all familiar with the Southern
Cross and perhaps that should be retained.

Foxy, what principles in colour and shape in a flag would you design to represent multiculturalism allegiance to?

Hi Josephus,

All I would do is remove the Union Jack.
Leave everything else as is.

Foxy,
Surely you mean the Union Flag?

It always amuses me that it is usually the very people who want to keep old, basically past their use by date, "heritage" buildings, that want to change our flag. The one thousands fought & died under, that we could have our modern Australia.

If you don't like our flag, go somewhere with a flag you like, you don't deserve to inherit the country they died for.

If you add 'F' (6) and 'L' (12), you get an 'R' (18).

Nay, Australia (or any other place for that matter) does not need a rag, old or new.

I used to oppose changing the flag, but after hearing Jerry Seinfeld's criticism of it I would support a change, but only to a good design. The best one I've seen so far is a flag version of the Australian Made logo.
________________________________________________________________________________

Is Mise,
That is incorrect. The pattern in the corner of our flag is the Union Jack, not the Union Flag.
Indeed the idea that the British Flag should be referred to as the Union Flag rather than the Union Jack is based on a historical misunderstanding, The myth is that a flag is a jack only when it's flown from the jack pole of a ship. But historical evidence shows the terms "jack" and "flag" to be entirely synonymous. And considering the fact that lots of unions have flags but only one of those is the Union Jack, referring to it as the Union Flag is downright stupid!

Hi Hasbeen,

Australians fought under (not for) the
Union Jack in the Boer War. They fought under the
Australian Red Ensign or the Union Jack in WWII.
Changing the flag will not in any way demean those who died.

We've fought under other flags for decades.

Aidan,
Thanks for that, I checked it out and either term appears to be correct.

So Foxy, you would be happy with a sky blue flag with seven white stars. High aspirartions to reach the stars with purity. Australian cultural diversity is too corrupt to have such a flag without giving sworn allegiance to such a high goal. Green and gold is growth prosperity and wealth.

From a speech by Dr Lois O'Donoghue from 1998:

"Our national flag should be a symbol of our national ideals and of the people we want to be. We regard ourselves as independent, individual and inclusive &#8208; but our existing flag, our national symbol, says none of this.

Instead, it symbolises a narrow slice of our history including a significant period when the rights of Australia's indigenous peoples were overlooked.

For this reason, most of Australia's indigenous people cannot relate to the existing flag. For us, it symbolises dispossession and oppression. And it just doesn't reflect the reality of Australian life in the late 1990s.

We are a country that prides itself on diversity and tolerance, yet some of us cling to a flag that represents a monoculture and intolerance. We are a country that has debated important national
issues such as justice, rights and identity, yet the current flag symbolises quite the opposite &#8208; complacency, dependency and subordination.

I reject the proposal that we are risking our sense of historical place by seeking a new flag."

http://www.ausflag.com.au/assets/images/contentpics/Flag-Speech-by-Dr-Lois-(Lowitja)-ODonoghue-980125.pdf

A new sense of connection which can be linked to by many including a new flag alongside other elements can lead to improvements in Australia, but for some is seen as too sybolic or simplistic, when in real terms for many it is not. What I may have a position comes second, when I can see benefits to a wider group of people with a new flag.

Hi Nathan,

I would also be happy with a deep green flag
and seven gold stars.

Green and gold has always been associated with
our sporting achievements. But there's no reason
why these colours could be part and parcel of our
national flag. After all Gold could conjure up
images of wealth and prosperity as you suggest.
Images of our beaches, our mineral wealth, our
grain harvest and even the fleece of our
Australian wool.

It also it our national emblem - the golden wattle.
The green would evoke our forests, eucalyptus trees,
and the pastures of our Australian landscape.

Something to definitely consider.

Hi Nathan,

Thank You for the quote. It does make sense.
And there's no good reason why we should not at least
have a debate on the subject.

Foxy,
As I recall, there was a political pressure group in the 1990s that produced T shirts picturing the flag you favour along with the slogan "JACK OFF"

Change for its own sake, rather than any real improvement, is something we're better off without!

Hi Aidan,

It is time for a change. For improvement.
Our flag as Nathan's quote points out represents
a small slice of the past. We have moved on as a country
since then. And it was a past that did not include our
Indigenous people. We need a flag that represents all
of our people, all of our values, our ideals. The current
flag does not do that.

Hence the discussion of a new flag is needed.
It should be relevant and have meaning for us all.

Here are some suggestions for a new Australian flag:

http://newaustralianflag.squarespace.com

Ah yes - the old "fought and died under" myth.

Why people use this easily disproven argument I never know.

I knew a drone, figuratively speaking, who did an entry-level job at the air force for a short period of time who would utter this nonsense from time to time.

People would point out his mistake which only caused him to double down on his ignorant "English Heritage" rants.

The only reason to change the flag is to virtue signal, and the flag will get changed regularly depending on the topic of the day.

The only flag possibly acceptable to many of us, who have served under our flag would be the Eureka Flag.

I'm damn sure, neither my son nor I or my father & grand father would serve again under any lollypop flag that might be devised to represent this bastardised country.

No matter what flag the lefties create- my flag will be the British Australian Flag.

We can see that there is a wide diversity of opinions
here. And I suspect this debate will continue for some
time yet. The final outcome hopefully will be to allow
the people to decide. Like it or lump it - it should
be up to our nation to decide on what its national
flag should look like. We all have our preferences
of course, but I'm sure that the outcome will be a
good one for everyone.

Look at Canada. Does anyone even remember what its
original flag looked like? If they could do it -
so can we. And we do no longer need to be subservient
to anyone. We're surely mature enough to stand on our own
two feet.

Dr John Blaxland writing for the Sydney Morning
Herald tells us that -

"Comedians have observed that the current Australian
flag is the British flag on a starry night."

He points out that "the dominant left quadrant belongs
to the flag of another nation making Australia
symbolically subordinate to Britain, as it was when it
was first introduced. That is an anachronism."

He tells us that "in designing one, Australia should ensure
its flag is distinct, inclusive, and symbolic of the
nation's maturity and independence."

There's more at:

http://smh.com.au/opinion/we-need-to-consider-a-new-australian-flag-that-reflects-our-maturity-and-independence-20160125-gmdgob.html

Foxy,
We need a flag that represents all our people and I can see a flag that does just that , it incorporates the current Aboriginal flag, the Cross of St George for the Poms, a Thistle for the Scots a Leek for the Welsh, the Harp of Eirean, the Star and Cresent, the Ashoka, the Bald Eagle, the Fox etc etc.
To be fair the 270 or so of the nations ethnic groups should have equal representation.

We could have a flag divided into 270 little squares.

Equality for all

Answer- I think Foxy is an anachronism.

It's been said that everyone is a hypocrit- anachronism is probably the definition of the human condition- therefore it doesn't worry me if our flag is an anachronism. Chaos theory shows up in population theory when the rate of reproduction increases- boom bust cycles with oscillation between levels- oscillation doubling- some just want to see the world burn- if Foxy burns her own house down that's fine- we should let the fire bugs burn in their own juices not allow the fire to spread.

We need good borders and stable principles- Britain has good principles Australia has inherited these both ideologically and ethnically.

In a sense Foxy being Lithuanian is part of the wider Germanic diaspora which she seems to have betrayed- by adopting universalism- perhaps she is not really Lithuanian in a sense.

You could probably call Foxy an internationally displaced person.

I remember reading some Russian Communist comedic comics- Of course the Communists only believe in comedy when it's used against their opponents. They killed quite a few comedians from memory- a few they locked up in appalling conditions. There are a few ethnic groups that seem to use comedy for political activism. Historically it's a bit of a cliche

Dear Canem Malum,

I am also internationally displaced and there is nothing wrong about it - only about being an international displacer.

Flags are an anachronism, a vestige from a violent past which breeds nationalism. It is nationalism which often forces us to flee our land of birth and live in exile.

Hmm, a flag to represent all of us.
We are made up of those that built the place up from scratch.
Then later those that we invited.
Then later those that asked to come.
Then later those that came uninvited.

Why should the latter two groups have a say on our flag ?
The aboriginals should have a say of course, but they never had a flag anyway.
Abusers please queue to the left.

The people of this country shall eventually decide
on whether or not they want a new flag and what
its design will be. Our current flag was not
formally recognised until 1953 as our national flag.
And whether to replace it will be a decision for the
Australian people to make. I doubt very much whether
having British ancestry will be a criteria for having
a vote on this subject.

As far as my nationality is concerned? -
I am Australian. And my loyalty is to
Australia.

Anyone who claims their loyalty is to
Britain first and foremost - perhaps
should move to that country. It could
prove educational.

Foxy, We are not suggesting loyalty to Britian, we are suggesting allegiance to a system of Westminster Government, culture and laws approved by the crown.

Foxy doesn't believe in keeping Australia's culture the same- so by default she want to replace Australia's culture. She seems to want to do the same for all western cultures. She doesn't see a problem with the governments of Australia going against the interests of the Australia people over the last fifty years.

Yet she speaks in the voice of authority that the issue is over.

This seems to be the same voice of much of the woke-ists.

It's interesting that many people don't participate in the debate and so the woke communists and globalist capitalists skew the debate by aggressive tactics.

As the Dalai Lama says Europe is for the European's.

Every culture needs their own nation.

Many seek to solve the worlds population problems by more population. ie by addressing Australian competitiveness with larger nations by increasing our population. Remember Kevin Rudd talking about a small Australia during the (2003?) election only to have this overturned by (party) pressure becoming a big Australia policy.

Britain created Australia- Foxy and her beliefs are perhaps an evil in the world.

Perhaps she also wants to steal British Australian babies and divide British Australian families.

So much for the times when we believed that strong families and communities were a good thing.

I'm surprised that Foxy can function at all from the ideas she produces- let alone her relationships, family, and community.

Does Australia need a new flag or do a handful of left whinge snowflakes want one?

People who were around in the 1950s would remember
how government policy was to try keeping Australia's
culture the same.
When everyone was supposed to think and act alike.
Well it didn't work.

Cultures have their differences. The governments of
Australia later - adapted well to the interests of
the people over the past decades by the programs they
installed to ensure social cohesion. That's why our
country is the envy of the world today and so many people
want to come here.

Australia is a very multicultural society with more than
270 ancestries. As a result it's a vibrant multicultural
country - and is also a home to the world's oldest
continual cultures.

This rich, cultural diversity is one
of our greatest strengths and is central to our national
identity. Every culture needs its own nation? In this
world of globalization? Well -
we can look with pride at the number of cultures that now
make up the nation that i today's Australia.

Britain created Australia?

It certainly gave it a kick start as a dumping ground for
British criminals and helped in the expansion of the
British Empire.

However, it also brought a wave of epidemic diseases including
smallpox, measles, and influenza which spread ahead of
the frontier and annihilated many Indigenous communities.

Governor Phillip reported that smallpox had killed half of the
Indigenous people in the Sydney region within 14 months
of the arrival of the First Fleet. The sexual abuse and
exploitation of Indigenous girls and women also introduced
venereal disease to Indigenous people in epidemic proportions.

shadow minister,

Most Australians do want their own national flag.

Foxy,

So do I. We have one already.

shadow minister,

The current Australian flag does not accurately connote
Australia's status as an independent nation. The Union
Jack suggests Australia is a British colony or dependency.

Today many people simply are uncomfortable with the flag.
On so many levels the anachronism of the flag's
arrangement has led to a discordance with Australia's
increasingly self-confident and multicultural identity.

The dominant top left quadrant belongs to a flag of another
nation making Australia symbolically subordinate to Britain,
as it was when it was first introduced. That is an
anachronism.

Foxy said-

"People who were around in the 1950s would remember
how government policy was to try keeping Australia's
culture the same.
When everyone was supposed to think and act alike.
Well it didn't work. "

Answer-

I think it did work but non-representative special interests inculcated themselves into politics to corrupt the community and the community wasn't able to act against the corruption. This was a form of weapon of mass destruction against the community by the special interest groups.

Just because a small "Spec Team" can "take out" a large number of soldiers doesn't make it right. In the same way a small PR team can destroy a community. The way Foxy reduces all that Australia is to Captain Phillip and small pox is ridiculous- I'd be surprised if Foxy has even been camping- let alone created a civilization.

You can be on the right side of history but still lose.

Look at all the civilizations that the Chin Dynasty destroyed in scorched earth tactics- certainly much worse than Genghis Khan- who were aggressive in battle but protected civilizations in peace. Even Alexander The Great occupied but didn't slaughter in 330 BC. Some believe that the northern climes bred a culture of value of resources that equatorial civilizations didn't possess.

Sadly- as someone said on the forum- those that created the rope will be hung by the same rope- a return to mediocrity for humanity.

In the west today you are not allowed to create a community of your own ethnicity due to equal opportunity- they force a certain philosophy on the people without a mandate- this is considered bad government by some standards.

Immigration policy is part of this dictatorial philosophy.

It's interesting that "the changers" in community debate have an advantage because most people don't want to be involved in politics and favour the status quo- these are the silent. In debates you have changers, opposers, the silent- A win for the changers is contemporarily defined (changers > opposers). Given human psychology perhaps a changers win should be defined by formula- (changers > opposers + silent).

Historical facts speak for themselves.
And Australia today is certainly much more than
the British colony that it once was.

It is a vibrant multicultural country that we can
all look at with pride at the number of cultures
that now make up the nation that is today's Australia.

Foxy's assertions on multiculturalism are both arguable and very offensive. Of course that is her intent to be very offensive. If one doesn't object the assumption is that we support her assertions by remaining silent. If we counter Foxy we are being aggressive. Similar tactics were used to shut down opposition during the Gay Marriage "debate". It's a difficult position to be in. While generally one supports the right to be offensive to make a point there comes a time when all there is- is offense. One starts to see the messenger as an item of disgust. I guess that Foxy insists on being an item of disgust. Sometimes that's just the way it has to be.

Aesop's fable The Farmer and the Viper is an example of how cultures can be incompatible- this is all the more reason to let cultures alone to live how they see fit. But Foxy- in her wisdom- doesn't want to do that. Some don't believe in "live and let live".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Farmer_and_the_Viper

I can't think of anything we need less that a new flag, unless it is to stop all immigration, completely, & permanently.

It is the British heritage that has made the modern Australian society possible. It is the flag that reflects that foundation, & is a bloody good idea to remind recently arrived people of that fact.

Foxy,

More than 2/3 Australians are of British heritage and roughly 9/10 are of European heritage whereas all the mooted flag designs are heavily focused on aboriginal designs that represent 1/50 Australians.

Sounds like the tail wagging the dog.

shadow minister,

I explained earlier that in my opinion the current
Australian flag does not accurately connote
Australia's status as an independent nation. The
Union Jack suggest Australia is a British colony or
dependency. And that today many people simply are
uncomfortable with the flag.

That on so many levels the anachronism of the flag's
arrangement has led to a discordance with Australia's
self-confident and multicultural identity.

That is only my opinion. Nothing more should be read
into that. I made it quite clear that it is up to the
Australian people to decide whether or not they want
a change and what that change will be. I will have
very little input into that decision. My influence is
not that big and to suggest all kinds of things on
my expressing an opinion borders on the absurd.

We need to rise above name calling and insults of
people whose views don't agree with our own and
labelling them as being "bad." Some of us need to
stop sounding
like echo chambers and giving kudos to those who have
the "wisdom" to agree with us. That's not how a democracy
is supposed to work. And as far as I'm aware this country
is a democracy - and an independent sovereign
nation.

cont'd ...

shadow minister,

As for the accusation of my being "offensive."

To paraphrase Albert Einstein -

Many individuals have always encountered opposition
from mediocre minds. Mediocre minds are incapable
of understanding the person who refuses to bow
blindly to conventional prejudices and chooses
instead to express their opinions courageously and
honestly.

And as Jordan Peterson confirms:

In order to be able tho think you have to risk being
offensive.

Foxy,

You have the wrong person. I didn't accuse you of being offensive.

Since the language, culture, legal system, and population is overwhelmingly British, those that are "uncomfortable" are in the minority.

I'm sure that Foxy has a ceremonial flag burning to attend to.

Yuyutsu,

<<Flags are an anachronism, a vestige from a violent past which breeds nationalism. It is nationalism which often forces us to flee our land of birth and live in exile.>>

I agree nationalism is a posion I don't want to ever take or give to somebody else. Is there therefore a case for a unity flag, one that will encompass all people and is a movement (in principle) toward world peace and tranquility?

Yes, I also understand unity requires more than say a flag, it's a very complex issue.

shadow minister,

We shall have to wait and see what the majority of
Australian people decide on the Australian flag.
And it will be the majority who decide.

CM,

Destruction (such as flag burning) is not my thing.
Attempts at bullying must come from your lineage
(whatever that may be) - which you display so well.
And prove my point. I rest my case.

Step 1- The government creates disunity by their ethnic policies.
Step 2- There is ethnic conflict
Step 3- The government steps in to enforce their will over the people in the name of preventing conflict.
Step 4- This creates more conflict.

From my perspective Foxy is the bully.

The only conflict that exists is in the minds
of people who lack cultural awareness.
And disrespect views that don't agree with their
own. It comes as a result of a "born to rule"
mentality that today no longer exists for most
people.

Canum Malum tells us that from his perspective
"Foxy is the bully." While previously stating that -

"I'm sure that Foxy has a flag burning to attend to."

Once again proving my point.

I rest my case.

cont'd ...

Christopher Hitchens stated:

"The empire on which the sun never set was also the
empire on which the gore never dried."

" You simply cannot take pride in the imperialist
atrocities of your ancestors and at the same time
call yourself a civilized human."

Dear Nathan,

Thank You for raising this topic.

This discussion has certainly been robust.
However for me it's now run its course and
I have nothing further to add.

I look am looking forward to our next discussion.

Again - Thanks for raising this topic.
It's been interesting.

Dear Nathan,

«I agree nationalism is a posion I don't want to ever take or give to somebody else. Is there therefore a case for a unity flag, one that will encompass all people and is a movement (in principle) toward world peace and tranquility?»

If there is such a case then I cannot see it.

While we are united at the core, not even just all people but everyone and everything, you speak of some flag that could affect us positively on the mental level towards peace and tranquility. Well perhaps this could be done following some 100 years without any flags and the associated connotations we became used to around them, but as it stands we still retain such mental impressions so despite all good intentions, flags are likely to trigger their violent history instead.

Peace and tranquility, I'm afraid, can only be accrued by inner spiritual effort and divine grace.

I've been reading some interesting articles on Narcissism.